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TomTheRat
2007-04-08, 03:26 PM
What do people do when they encounter common monsters with vulnerabilities for the first time? Twice last night it came up, once when we argued that you'd be crazy not to know that a troll only dies from fire/acid damage, and once when we ran into a basilisk ("Why should I cover my eyes? It's just an 8 legged lizard with big red eyes!").

I realize that you can just make untrained Knowledge: whatever rolls, but when is something so common that you should just know it.

asqwasqw
2007-04-08, 03:42 PM
I think it depends on your ingame knowledge. Are trolls extremely common or are they very unknown?

Roland St. Jude
2007-04-08, 03:52 PM
It depends on your game world. Is this something everyone in the area knows? (Kobolds are the little lizard men that live in the hills and sometimes prey one lone travellers. Bright light like sunlight'll send 'em packing though.) In which case, it's common knowledge and your DM should tell you things your character would reasonably know.

Or is it more rare knowledge? (How many people, even adventurers have seen a Basilisk?) In which case, you should make a Knowledge check. (Trained only, by the way). Your DM should set the DC according to what type question it is, easy (DC 10), basic (DC 15), or tougher (DC 20+). You should have to use the knowledge skill or skill that applies. Off-hand, I'd say a troll falls under Know:Nature and a basilisk falls under Know:Arcana.

Knowing details about a monster is laid out in the rules as a DC 10+ monster's HD Knowledge check. So your party braniac should see what he knows and pass it on to others.

Except for deciding what is common knowledge and what is specialized knowledge, there are rules that govern the situation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/knowledge.htm).

Roethke
2007-04-08, 03:57 PM
The basilisk, in particular, brings up a follow-up question. When monster CR's are given, how much PC knowledge is assumed?

Assuming it's a random encounter, meaning the party isn't specially prepared, the difficulty is going to be much different if the PC's first reaction is "I examine the lizard looking for weaknesses", rather than "I avert my eyes"

TomTheRat
2007-04-08, 04:41 PM
Good points. However, I am specifically referring to Forgotten Realms.

Roland St. Jude
2007-04-08, 04:49 PM
The basilisk, in particular, brings up a follow-up question. When monster CR's are given, how much PC knowledge is assumed?

Assuming it's a random encounter, meaning the party isn't specially prepared, the difficulty is going to be much different if the PC's first reaction is "I examine the lizard looking for weaknesses", rather than "I avert my eyes"

That's a good question. I don't know that that specific issue is addressed in the rules. And I've never read anything to suggest what the designers and developers have in mind as they assign a CR. (Do they account for the greater number of divination spells and higher knowledge and gather information ranks at higher levels?) It's an interesting question. I may go poke around the WotC site and elsewhere to see if there are any answers to be had.

I know the rules say that the CR assumes a fully rested party, but I don't think it specifies whether the encounter is random or not. I'll have to go check on that.


Good points. However, I am specifically referring to Forgotten Realms.Ok, well, the Realms is a big place. I would suppose some things are common knowledge in some places and not others. I'd ask your DM. (Next, you're going to tell me you are the DM, right? :smallwink: ) Or maybe there are some Realms experts around who could tell you what kinds of creatures the average Realmsfolk would know about.

Even in the Realms, I don't think trolls or basilisks are "common monsters." At least not to the extent than everyone would know their weaknesses without some knowledge about nature generally.

Jasdoif
2007-04-08, 05:25 PM
The basilisk, in particular, brings up a follow-up question. When monster CR's are given, how much PC knowledge is assumed?

Assuming it's a random encounter, meaning the party isn't specially prepared, the difficulty is going to be much different if the PC's first reaction is "I examine the lizard looking for weaknesses", rather than "I avert my eyes"Making a knowledge check doesn't take an action in the usual case, as mentioned in the knowledge skill. The moment you see the creature, you're entitled to make the knowledge check, which takes no time, after which you can decide what to do with your actions.

The DMG specifically has a category for encounters that are "easy if handled properly", and suggests increasing the EL (and XP award) for an encounter if it's much more difficult then it was usually be. If your entire party has sad Fort saves and lacks any way to deal with with petrification, it might full under that category.

TomTheRat
2007-04-08, 05:50 PM
Even in the Realms, I don't think trolls or basilisks are "common monsters." At least not to the extent than everyone would know their weaknesses without some knowledge about nature generally.

Its a hard thing to say. In the real world, there is so much that really isn't fundamental knowledge, but we assume it to be. Like a red octagon with white lettering is a stop sign. Or like a green light means go. Or clouds are made up of suspended water and ice particles. Its just part of the basket of general know-how for someone living in a 1st world country in the year 2007.

If we lived in a fantasy setting, especially one where death at the hands of an ankheg or a bulette or a vampire is more or less a common occurence, how could we not know that ankhegs burrow, bulettes are bad news, and vampires don't like light. Does "Umber Hulks confuse you" approximate to "look both ways before you cross the road"?

I'd say, unquestionably, yes.


Next, you're going to tell me you are the DM, right? :smallwink:

Naw, just the roleplaying veteran with a lust for quality rules.

Roland St. Jude
2007-04-08, 06:19 PM
I agree it's hard to know. And I agree with the reasoning, but I don't buy the premise. I don't think, "death at the hands of an ankheg or a bulette or a vampire is more or less a common occurence." At least not for most people in most settings. Death by orcish invasion maybe or attack by werecreatures perhaps. But that's why I think common knowledge varies so widely by setting and even then locality. It's a matter of what's common knowledge.

I'd wager the bit about what clouds are made of escapes most people even today. And the analogue to stop signs and traffic lights is medieval signage, mores about traveling through a town, perhaps, and not the details of rare creature that can be found in the wilderness or that stalks the night. The stuff in the everyday basket of knowledge is similar to what it is now. How do I do X, get paid, travel around, etc. The details change and perhaps they are wary of wild beasts and common humanoid threats the way we're wary of gangbangers and drunk drivers.

Some settings, and maybe the Realms is one of them are so monster and magic rich that every one knows what a basilisk is and what a locathah looks like and the difference between a hezrou and a glabrezu. But to my mind, not usually. That's more analogous to someone today who can discriminate the details of rare dangers (who can tell a deadly snake from an innocuous one? who can tell a harmless mole from a deadly carcinoma? who can tell a live downed powerline from a dead one? -- someone with specialized knowledge.)

The Realms is pretty magic heavy as I understand it, so your perception may more accurate there. But still to say everyone knows to avert your eyes from a basilisk (and can recognize one in advance) is a bit too much I think.

the_tick_rules
2007-04-08, 06:23 PM
I think it's mentioned in the PHB, or is it DMG, i think PHB. If you make a knowledge I can't remember what check with a DC of 10+HD of the creature you know stuff about it.

Borogove
2007-04-08, 07:41 PM
From the srd..


Answering a question within your field of study has a DC of 10 (for really easy questions), 15 (for basic questions), or 20 to 30 (for really tough questions).

In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster.

For every 5 points by which your check result exceeds the DC, you recall another piece of useful information.


Arcana (ancient mysteries, magic traditions, arcane symbols, cryptic phrases, constructs, dragons, magical beasts)
Dungeoneering (aberrations, caverns, oozes, spelunking)
Local (legends, personalities, inhabitants, laws, customs, traditions, humanoids)
Nature (animals, fey, giants, monstrous humanoids, plants, seasons and cycles, weather, vermin)
Religion (gods and goddesses, mythic history, ecclesiastic tradition, holy symbols, undead)
The planes (the Inner Planes, the Outer Planes, the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, outsiders, elementals, magic related to the planes)

Roland St. Jude
2007-04-08, 07:56 PM
^ and ^^ @ Hmm, yes, if only someone had mentioned and linked those things earlier...:smallwink:

Borogove
2007-04-08, 08:10 PM
^ and ^^ @ Hmm, yes, if only someone had mentioned and linked those things earlier...:smallwink:
true. I thought it might be worth posting them anyway. 'sides, it's easy to miss links.

Epiphanis
2007-04-08, 08:12 PM
Somewhat off-topic, but about a year ago I created a PrC for my homebrew called a "Battle Sage." (Before the Bo9S introduced "Swordsage"). Ten levels, essentially fighter-type BAB and saves with the extraordinary ability as a full round action (inducing AoO, requires Concentration checks as spellcasting) to make a DC 10+Racial HD Knowledge (applicable skill) of one subject race (not the whole type: one race) to temporarily gain the +2 benefits of a ranger's Favored Enemy (doesn't stack). Only one race at a time, can change temproary Favored Enemy 1/day for every odd number class level. Three bonus Skill Focus (any Knowledge skill) feats spread over the 10 levels.

Nobody tested it in play :-(

Wehrkind
2007-04-09, 01:27 AM
I agree with Roland on this one. People are likely to know less and less the more insulated the are from nature and replace that knowledge with the specifics of their towns and institutions. So city dwellers probably have never heard of an ahnkeg, but know what to do to get a license for their trade stall, etc., while villagers might know the signs that some local beastie is lurking around, and to keep their flocks under watch, but not the various heraldry of local lords.
With that in mind, you can make judgements based on character back ground about what they would know. A fighter from a village on the edge of the Troll Marshes would know a lot about trolls but nothing about desert dragons, just as a bard from a Grecco/Roman sort of setting would know not to look at Medusa (and probably a pile of other story based info.)

You also need to keep in mind that for creatures of particular power (such that the local militia can not reasonably fight them and live) that no one would have seen one and lived, so most of the "knowledge" in a village might well be second hand for a basilisk or the like. Perhaps a local hermit sage would be able to dig up information, but just as likely there would be all sorts of rumors and old wive's tales about various critters that are likely wildly inaccurate.
Which is, incidentally, a great way to mess with your players. Tell them of some terrible monster plaguing the poplace that the villagers call the "Fanged Ghost" and a list of frightening and mutually exclusive powers and weaknesses from various sources. It turns out the "Fanged Ghost" is just an albino were wolf with the "Creature of a Few Stories Here and There" template from the boards here on it, but until the confrontation the PCs will be running in all directions trying to figure out how to prepare.

Roland St. Jude
2007-04-09, 01:33 AM
As added bonus, the perspective I suggest helps to give some value to Knowledge, Gather Information, and social skills as characters need to learn about these things or else seek out that old sage, hermit, or former adventurer who claims to have fought a demon and lived. I like the feel of that better than just having everyone know what a certain monster is like. Some people do, of course, but they're the people with special knowledge. You need to be one of those or seek one out if you want to know.

Olethros
2007-04-09, 01:42 AM
As far as the forgotten realms specifically. If you are Samy Woodcutter from anywhere near the Troll Moores, yes you almost deffinetly know only fire and acid will put them down for good. If you are Driznefdindeglabandalsnafter, from underdark suck-city yes you know to fear the gaze of the basalisk. But take either protaganist out of there comfort zone and there knowlege base will shrink exponentially.

That in mind, a group of adventurers also have non-specific inference available to them, so while the may not know immediatly that a troll will regenerate, it will become obvious rather quickly, and then its not a far streatch that they may try cutting off the head, magic, fire, acid, silver, or jade (crazy hopping vampires), all as folklore remedies/past experience solutions to things that heal quickly.

SMDVogrin
2007-04-09, 03:57 AM
How many people here have heard that the way to react to a shark attack is to punch it in the nose?

Conceptually, that strikes me as the appropriate parallel. Very few people get attacked by sharks, yet we do hear stories about them and hear what is supposed to work against them. Similarly, in the Forgotten Realms, kids will hear stories about Troll attacks while sitting in front of a fire with their grandparents. They'll hear about basiliks in that a story about some famous hero and his mirrored shield. They'll hear about the vicious drow from the town crier announcing the sack of some distant town...

Whamme
2007-04-09, 04:09 AM
Here, in the real world, with no Basilisks at all, the very name means 'turns you to stone with a glance', or close enough.

Glabrezu/Hezrou? Probably not. But Trolls or Basilisks are popular to tell the tale of in the real world, and the players would likely know what to do with them - even without in-game knowledge. So let them.

Now, Ice-Trolls? Fire-Trolls? Maybe not.

GolemsVoice
2007-04-09, 04:18 AM
Additonal to what the above posters said, I would also say that if you have class levels, you also bring along some expertise and knowlegde. Everyone knows a bunch of more-or-less accurate stories about creatures and heroes defeating them with special tricks. But the PCs often had to study the ways of fighting somehow. So, I think they know more combat-related things, like "common" creatures weaknesses and skills, especially when they are as spectacular as regeneration or petrification.

SpatulaOfDoom
2007-04-09, 04:19 AM
Depends what stories you're talking about Whamme
If you're Norse the thing to do with Trolls is rip off their arm and go kill their mom.
If you're French the thing to do with Trolls is pay the toll and go over the bridge or leave the bridge alone, trying to cross without paying will get you et.

Stories seem to differ quite a bit from place to place don't they?

Kantolin
2007-04-09, 04:41 AM
Not to mention, 'common' stories get muddled quickly.

"You destroy a Werewolf by bathing them in jade mixed with powdered ivory under the third full moon while hopping on one leg!"

Matthew
2007-04-09, 11:37 PM
It's worth remembering that just because you see it and have heard of it doesn't mean you will recognise it. Is that a Troll or an Ogre?

Wehrkind
2007-04-10, 12:11 AM
How many people here have heard that the way to react to a shark attack is to punch it in the nose?

Conceptually, that strikes me as the appropriate parallel. Very few people get attacked by sharks, yet we do hear stories about them and hear what is supposed to work against them. Similarly, in the Forgotten Realms, kids will hear stories about Troll attacks while sitting in front of a fire with their grandparents. They'll hear about basiliks in that a story about some famous hero and his mirrored shield. They'll hear about the vicious drow from the town crier announcing the sack of some distant town...

The trouble with that is that it assumes a modern day level of communication ability, and ignores the highly common occurances of false information getting mixed in.

For the former, recall the story of WWII German troops rolling into remote Russian villages and having the villagers ask "How is the Tsar?" Getting along without phones, tv or even books means your sphere of knowledge is highly limited.

When you rely on single sources and stories, things can get muddled fast. Think of the false theory of glass "flowing" over time. Or any number of modern "facts" that are known to be false, but plenty of people believe them. Once something gets into people's heads, it is often very difficult to dislodge, even with all the information we have at our disposal today. Imagine that instead of being able to look up an answer on Wikipedia, your only source was everyone eles in the village, none of whom have actual expertise. Look up some old medical guides for more examples of patently silly things being considered factual and effective.

Also, keep in mind the issue of non-experts spreading information. "Yea, I killed a big old troll. I don't know about that burning nonsense though. After the 6th arrow, he slowed down enough that the 7th got his eye, and he went down easily enough." "Are you certain it wasn't an ogre?" "We don't have ogres around here." etc. with nothing to look up that sort of information in, everyone would likely believe the first speaker, or at least have no way to prove him wrong.

Actual facts are pretty hard to come by when you get right down to it, particularly when people have a reason for bending them or making up ruses and stories, which they often do.

Olethros
2007-04-10, 12:12 AM
I don't think we can parallel moder world "general knowlege" with the midevile fantacy world at all. Mass media sort of renders the "punch a shark" thing non-sequitor. If it werent for shark week on discovery channel, how often would that information be bassed around the dinner table in Iowa (or for that matter how many planes Tribes even knew what a shark was in the late 1700's). As a corrolary, so you say the way to defend yourself from a shark attack is to "punch it in the nose," how many people can discribe how to perform this feet succesfully, its not actually as simple as throwing a jab at the sharks face.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-10, 12:16 AM
The trouble with that is that it assumes a modern day level of communication ability, and ignores the highly common occurances of false information getting mixed in.

Considering spells like sending, message, and whispering wind exist and are rather easily accessible, I would say that communication in a fantasy setting would be about par with pre-cellular modern day.

Olethros
2007-04-10, 12:34 AM
Considering spells like sending, message, and whispering wind exist and are rather easily accessible, I would say that communication in a fantasy setting would be about par with pre-cellular modern day.

Because all those Commoner1, Warrior1, Expert1 peasents that make up the bulk of the population have a woundrous item in there dirt hovel with at will message. :smalltongue:

Yes the upper levels of society will have a much etter opurtunity for accurate communication exchange than "Real World" medevile societies. But A)not everone will be born into/trained by these upper eschelons, and B)those that are are represented by haning Knowlege(besties type) as a class skill.

You can't really assume general knowlege about anything. If for no other reason than, Jouhny Woodcutter (remember him) may have been asleep/daydreaming/drunk/cutting wood/stupid when the accurate information about trolls got past around the campfire.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-10, 01:01 AM
Because all those Commoner1, Warrior1, Expert1 peasents that make up the bulk of the population have a woundrous item in there dirt hovel with at will message. :smalltongue:

They won't, but an Adept 1 with a decent Cha and some ranks in Use Magic Device probably would consider it a decent investment to set up a "sending service." It'd require significant down payment, certainly, but he could easily make it up on charging per use.

Olethros
2007-04-10, 01:50 AM
They won't, but an Adept 1 with a decent Cha and some ranks in Use Magic Device probably would consider it a decent investment to set up a "sending service." It'd require significant down payment, certainly, but he could easily make it up on charging per use.

I like it, can we call the adept Adam Bellwright?

Wehrkind
2007-04-10, 02:23 AM
They won't, but an Adept 1 with a decent Cha and some ranks in Use Magic Device probably would consider it a decent investment to set up a "sending service." It'd require significant down payment, certainly, but he could easily make it up on charging per use.


That's exactly it: not pre-cell phone era, but at BEST telegraph era. You have maybe one guy in a decent sized town who can convey messages place by way of magic. No small town will have this, since there is not enough free capital to be spent on sending messages other places, even assuming those peasants (historically very tied to the land) even know someone out of town.

Even assuming larger cities have better communication, how likely is that communication to be used for facts about obscure monsters? Consider what percentage of modern communications are used for science/nature communication, compared to current events (which even today are considered less than accurate) and general entertainment. Honestly, if today's media is any indication, most scrying and communication devices are crystal balls linked to the ladies' changing rooms.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-10, 02:33 AM
That's exactly it: not pre-cell phone era, but at BEST telegraph era. You have maybe one guy in a decent sized town who can convey messages place by way of magic. No small town will have this, since there is not enough free capital to be spent on sending messages other places, even assuming those peasants (historically very tied to the land) even know someone out of town.

Even assuming larger cities have better communication, how likely is that communication to be used for facts about obscure monsters? Consider what percentage of modern communications are used for science/nature communication, compared to current events (which even today are considered less than accurate) and general entertainment. Honestly, if today's media is any indication, most scrying and communication devices are crystal balls linked to the ladies' changing rooms.

Actually, I'd say in a world as hostile as Toril or Oerth, the militaries would have a wide variety of communications specialists in their employ, all of whom spread the knowledge of the weaknesses of their foes. And what do they do when they retire? They go back home to their small community and set up doing what they do best: communications.

As for your latter statement, I would agree with you. This is why in my games, there exists books of playwizard.

Wehrkind
2007-04-10, 03:01 AM
Do militaries fight basilisks and the like a good bit there? I can see Silverymoon and the other places up that way knowing about trolls, but not so much more "civilized" areas to the south.
Plus, most proffessional armies come from cities, not villages IRL. You have a point though, as any large town or city would likely enlist the services of sages and other knowledgable folk to keep a repository of odd monster information on hand, just in case.