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Zincorium
2007-04-10, 06:53 AM
Well, the DM I play under for my weekly real life game has put the deck of many things into the game. Again. The deck of many things is really the true indicator of when responsible DMing goes out the window and a sense of sadistic glee intrudes upon the game. Of course, being the group we are, the lesson evident in this has failed to penetrate our thick skulls.

My character, being very unwise and having absolutely no indication of what the dang thing was supposed to do other than the stares of horror/drooling of the other characters (who had encountered one once before in a game I was absent for), decided to draw three cards.

50K gold, 4 wishes, and one alignment change from neutral to chaotic evil later, I am faced with a bit of a conundrum. The problem, other than being a completely selfish b**tard and having four wishes that are unlikely to be perverted, is that we have one of our players just get back into town.

And he's playing a paladin.




So, advice on ways to keep this game from dissolving into catastrophe? (assuming that the current situation does not already qualify as such)

Maryring
2007-04-10, 07:02 AM
Wish for an alignment change. It can create an atonement effect for you. No problem with that.

Maxymiuk
2007-04-10, 07:04 AM
Wish for an alignment change. It can create an atonement effect for you. No problem with that.

Ah, but that in itself would be an act violating his current alignment. :smalltongue:

ken-do-nim
2007-04-10, 07:06 AM
Speaking of sadistic glee...

There's a monster in Tome of Horrors II that has a deck of many things and throws a card at a player as an attack action. How fun is that?

Zincorium
2007-04-10, 07:26 AM
Wish for an alignment change. It can create an atonement effect for you. No problem with that.

Um, yeah, except for one thing: my character is not aware he has suddenly become chaotic evil. He just had a change of point of view, and is not going to find it out within the four minutes allowed for the wishes. Metagaming is extremely frowned upon, so it'd be one of those things I'd be told I didn't know to wish for even if I asked.

Personally, I think it's going to be an interesting challenge. Mostly I play benevolent, friendly, live and let live types that get along well with the party. Since the DM rolled the new alignment randomly (of the four extremes, since I was just neutral), and officially gave it to me, I have no reason to feel guilty, and I'm powerful enough at this point that I'm not simply going to have to re-roll if and when the paladin uses detect evil.

Jothki
2007-04-10, 07:32 AM
Your character's goals shouldn't have significantly changed, just the range of things that he's willing to do to achieve those goals. Don't scheme, just Wish for what your character wants.

SpiderBrigade
2007-04-10, 07:39 AM
Ah, but that in itself would be an act violating his current alignment. :smalltongue:So wish for an alignment change on the paladin?

Indon
2007-04-10, 07:43 AM
Wish for your powers back (Power is good, after all). Leave it up to the DM if you get your alignment back, or immediately become a Blackguard or something.


Speaking of sadistic glee...

There's a monster in Tome of Horrors II that has a deck of many things and throws a card at a player as an attack action. How fun is that?

Wow, it really is a Tome of Horror.

Shrew
2007-04-10, 07:46 AM
Staying with your new alignment, wish the Paladin's alignment to change to yours. Then your new views would be the same. Plus this truly is a chaotic evil act.

SpiderBrigade
2007-04-10, 07:55 AM
psst, shrew, I said that already :smallbiggrin:

But yeah, I really love the idea of corrupting the good guy rather than trying to buff yourself enough to ignore him. Because from an OOC perspective it maintains party unity, while IC, it's exactly what your char might do.

Dan_Hemmens
2007-04-10, 08:05 AM
Um, yeah, except for one thing: my character is not aware he has suddenly become chaotic evil. He just had a change of point of view, and is not going to find it out within the four minutes allowed for the wishes. Metagaming is extremely frowned upon, so it'd be one of those things I'd be told I didn't know to wish for even if I asked.


Then politely explain to your DM that he has three options.

1) He can allow you to metagame now, in order to avoid later conflict. And incidentally you can achieve this quite easily in IC terms (I suggest "I feel a dark presence intruding upon my thoughts, and whatever it is I want it to stop *now*")

2) He can force you to "metagame" constantly in order to avoid screwing things up by actually playing your now-chaotic-evil character properly.

3) You can take the response which stupid people consider to be "proper roleplaying" and just screw his game up. Kill the Paladin in his sleep, or as somebody else points out wish for him to be corrupted by the dark powers. Go hog-wild and use your four wishes to bring untold blight and chaos on the world because that's what your now-chaotic-evil character would do with that kind of power.

Ethdred
2007-04-10, 08:07 AM
You and the paladin can't adventure together once he finds out - simple as that. So it's likely one or other of you is going to have to re-roll. Or, the paladin could, knowing that you used to be OK and have only been tainted by this foul magic, stay with you on a temporary basis while he schemes (in a very pure and above-board fashion) to get your alignment changed back. Of course, he has the conundrum of whether to change you back to where you were originally, or go the whole hog and make you LG. Just beware of any girdles he hands you.

Ranis
2007-04-10, 08:08 AM
I suggest that after you fix the fiasco, burn the deck. It'll be worth it.

Maryring
2007-04-10, 08:11 AM
I think that you should be able to know that your alignment has changed. The way I read it, you're perfectly aware that your personality has drastically changed. (Except if your wisdom is below 6). Wish can emulate an atonement spell, but the change in alignment caused by it must be done willingly. So no wishing the Paladin evil. And, of course, if there are someone in your party that knows the effect of "balance", they could tell you, and then a logical solution would be to wish for your mind to become your own again. In fact, I am 100% certain that you will notice your alignment change because...

The character must change to a radically different alignment.

Also, something you should note.



Moon

This card sometimes bears the image of a moonstone gem with the appropriate number of wishes shown as gleams therein; sometimes it depicts a moon with its phase indicating the number of wishes (full = four; gibbous = three; half = two; quarter = one). These wishes are the same as those granted by the 9th-level wizard spell and must be used within a number of minutes equal to the number received.

TSGames
2007-04-10, 08:12 AM
psst, shrew, I said that already :smallbiggrin:

But yeah, I really love the idea of corrupting the good guy rather than trying to buff yourself enough to ignore him. Because from an OOC perspective it maintains party unity, while IC, it's exactly what your char might do.
I'm not so sure... I know that I wouldn't be happy if I was the paladin who suddenly lost all of his class abilities.

SpiderBrigade
2007-04-10, 08:23 AM
Hmm, that's a good point. Maybe wish for him to become a blackguard? Or a paladin of Tyranny or something. And you should definitely talk to his player about this. While the OP is comfy with playing a new and different alignment, the paladin's player might not be.

@Dan_Hemmens: I'm not advocating "try to corrupt the paladin even though it'd screw the game up, because waaaagh you're evil now." (I also resent the implication that I'm stupid for thinking about what a CE character might do, BTW).

The thing is, with a paladin and a freshly CE guy, the game has a really good chance of becoming screwed up anyway. Making the pally evil, too (as above, hopefully without screwing him out of his powers) is one way to try and keep the party working smoothly. Your listed options are also viable, of course.

Indon
2007-04-10, 08:25 AM
Actually, one good idea:

"I wish that my alignment be forever detectable as Good."

Dan_Hemmens
2007-04-10, 08:36 AM
Hmm, that's a good point. Maybe wish for him to become a blackguard? Or a paladin of Tyranny or something. And you should definitely talk to his player about this. While the OP is comfy with playing a new and different alignment, the paladin's player might not be.

@Dan_Hemmens: I'm not advocating "try to corrupt the paladin even though it'd screw the game up, because waaaagh you're evil now." (I also resent the implication that I'm stupid for thinking about what a CE character might do, BTW).

I'm not implying you're stupid for suggesting that this is something a CE character might do, I'm outright stating that his DM is stupid if he won't allow "metagaming" even when it will actually save his game.

Wishing the Paladin evil will screw the game for the guy playing the Paladin.


The thing is, with a paladin and a freshly CE guy, the game has a really good chance of becoming screwed up anyway. Making the pally evil, too (as above, hopefully without screwing him out of his powers) is one way to try and keep the party working smoothly. Your listed options are also viable, of course.

To my mind, though, turning the Paladin evil is functionally identical to killing him. You're essentially rewriting that player's character concept without their say-so, and stripping them of all their powers. That does not, to me, spell "smooth running campaign."

Lapak
2007-04-10, 09:06 AM
Actually, one good idea:

"I wish that my alignment be forever detectable as Good."Something along these lines would probably be best in-character. Not, perhaps, that explicit, but wishing for permanent protection from nosy diviners of all sorts would certainly be a reasonable thing for someone who has suddenly turned selfish and evil to think of. A permanencied nondetection spell of some sort would at least give the other players time to realize something was up and try to 'fix' you, while you get the challenge of playing a CE character in the meantime. (Keep in mind that 'CE' doesn't automatically mean violently homocidal - you're probably still friends with these people, still working with them; it's just that now you're doing so for self-serving reasons.)

Also, the permanent nondetection/mind blank/whatever would be useful to you even after you get your alignment readjusted, assuming that you do.

Dan_Hemmens
2007-04-10, 09:09 AM
Forced Alignment changes just plain suck. "My character's personality has completely changed and I can't even do anything about it because the GM says that will violate my new alignment."

Even if your character has become Chaotic Evil it is perfectly legitimate for him to resent having his thoughts and perceptions altered by an external force and to want to change back.

SpiderBrigade
2007-04-10, 09:14 AM
Of course, all of this really points out how the Deck of Many Things is just a terrible, terrible item. Because the choices have really become A) metagame or retcon to eliminate the problem. B) intra-party conflict and possibly PVP. C) Force additional players to be effected by the alignment change. None of which are really that great.

The DoMT is one of those Gygaxian legacy items from the early days of the game. Much like the content of the Tomb of Horrors, the Deck has a variety of ways to over-reward or completely screw the players, but pretends that it's not just abritrary screwing-over, since, hey, they CHOSE to draw a card, right? It's the kind of item where your DM says "are you SUUUURE you want to do that?" with an evil grin.

Edit:
Forced Alignment changes just plain suck. "My character's personality has completely changed and I can't even do anything about it because the GM says that will violate my new alignment."

Even if your character has become Chaotic Evil it is perfectly legitimate for him to resent having his thoughts and perceptions altered by an external force and to want to change back.Excellent point. I think the wish might take the form of "I wish to be freed from this interfering magic" rather than "I wish to be not evil any more," though.

Also, what was the order of the cards being drawn? Were wishes available before the alignment change? In that case I would definitely think about declaring that a single wish was spent "reactively" to actually prevent the alignment change in the first place.

Tweekinator
2007-04-10, 09:37 AM
Yes, pretty much without without wishing your alignment to change away from chaotic evil, you put both yourself and the paladin in pretty bad situation. One of you will have to go. Even if go with Indon's idea of nondetection, the paladin will eventually be clued in to your alignment by your actions. And one of you will have either leave or die.

Dan_Hemmens
2007-04-10, 09:42 AM
Yes, pretty much without without wishing your alignment to change away from chaotic evil, you put both yourself and the paladin in pretty bad situation. One of you will have to go. Even if go with Indon's idea of nondetection, the paladin will eventually be clued in to your alignment by your actions. And one of you will have either leave or die.

The other advantage of the Nondetection route is that it could, again, be used to undo the Alignment change by the back door (indeed, I thought that might have been what Indon was getting at).

Nine GMs out of ten would, after all, if you wished for your Alignment to be "forever detectable as good" take it as an excuse to "outwit" you and slap you with an Alignment shift (you detect as good now don't you)

Tweekinator
2007-04-10, 10:16 AM
I don't think that a DM would just change you to good if you wished to be detected as good, but I guess it's possible. The only way I could think of for the nondetection to work would be to have it so you do not detect as evil, relieving the inter-party conflict (or at least postponing it) and then go around doing good deeds. If a good character can fall to evil by committing evil acts, an evil character should be able to commit good acts and thus "rise" to good.

Lord Tataraus
2007-04-10, 10:55 AM
I'll ditto what most are saying. You would know that you have evil thoughts that you didn't have before you drew the card, thus you can wish for that card's effect to be reversed. That works well IC for both alignments.

Mewtarthio
2007-04-10, 10:56 AM
Or, the paladin could simply know that his good friend has been corrupted by dark magics, and work on a way to cure him. Like, say, the "undo harmful effects" clause of a Wish. The DoMT already means all concepts of balance and sanity have been abandoned, so why not just give the Paladin a quest to find, say, a Ring of Three Wishes, or perhaps agree to do something long and toturous for a Wizard in exchange for a Wish?


I'll ditto what most are saying. You would know that you have evil thoughts that you didn't have before you drew the card, thus you can wish for that card's effect to be reversed. That works well IC for both alignments.

The trouble is, he won't react to it as "Oh, no! I'm suddenly more Evil!"; he'll react to it with "Mwahahaha! At last I am free from my pathetic morality! Time to do the sorts of things I really want to do!" After all, if the party shoved a Helm of Opposite Alignment on an Evil Wizard, you wouldn't expect him to say, "Well, I'm now a staunch supporter of the forces of Good. Better wish myself back to Evil, though, because I don't like mind-altering magic."

Bear in mind also that the effects can be subtle. He won't immediately go out and kill a sad-eyed puppy; he'll just be more selfish.

Dan_Hemmens
2007-04-10, 11:34 AM
The trouble is, he won't react to it as "Oh, no! I'm suddenly more Evil!"; he'll react to it with "Mwahahaha! At last I am free from my pathetic morality! Time to do the sorts of things I really want to do!" After all, if the party shoved a Helm of Opposite Alignment on an Evil Wizard, you wouldn't expect him to say, "Well, I'm now a staunch supporter of the forces of Good. Better wish myself back to Evil, though, because I don't like mind-altering magic."

And this is exactly the problem with enforced Alignment changes. Because the relationship between Alignment and Personality is tenuous and badly defined, it is *completely impossible* to say how a character would react to a forced Alignment shift, or even how a forced alignment shift would *feel*.

And as both a player and a DM I would consider "What have you done to me, I shall make you all pay for this" to be a perfectly legitimate response from a HoOAed former BBEG. Hell, not even Paladins act 100% LG 100% of the time, a character with an artificially altered Alignment will still have the same feelings they had before.

SpiderBrigade
2007-04-10, 12:17 PM
And as both a player and a DM I would consider "What have you done to me, I shall make you all pay for this" to be a perfectly legitimate response from a HoOAed former BBEG. Hell, not even Paladins act 100% LG 100% of the time, a character with an artificially altered Alignment will still have the same feelings they had before.QFT.

Also remember that neither Good nor Evil is monolithic, even in D&D. Just because Mr. Big Bad is suddenly Chaotic Good doesn't mean he likes you, or wants to work with you. He may not even give up on his goal of "invade and occupy the neighboring nation." He's just going to stop putting villages to the sword as he goes. Oh, and maybe rethink the whole "legions of undead" thing, but that's just tactics :smallwink:

CharPixie
2007-04-10, 12:18 PM
But he might say "Damn you! What is this I feel? What is this heaviness that clouds my heart? I wish it to be gone!" and *poof* there goes his morality. And lo it was short lived. Similarly, being CE might mean the *desire* to pillage, destroy, and pervert but a previously LG character would likely know *something* is wrong with them. I imagine it could feel akin to madness: "Lord, protect me from my dark thoughts. What curse has inflicted me that makes me hate so?"

I'd wish the deck had never existed and move on.

KoDT69
2007-04-10, 12:26 PM
Forced Alignment changes just plain suck. "My character's personality has completely changed and I can't even do anything about it because the GM says that will violate my new alignment."

Even if your character has become Chaotic Evil it is perfectly legitimate for him to resent having his thoughts and perceptions altered by an external force and to want to change back.

I agree with this completely. The first step to recovery is admitting you have a problem :smallyuk:

Fax Celestis
2007-04-10, 12:29 PM
Use one of your wishes for a helm of opposite alignment. Use it on him or on yourself; your call.

Conversely, invest in an amulet of proof against detection and location, which will mask your alignment. As far as he knows, you're still neutral. You were last he talked to you, why would that be different now?

SpiderBrigade
2007-04-10, 12:29 PM
Of course this is turning into a big "what is alignment" debate, which will never end, but that's okay :smallamused:


Similarly, being CE might mean the *desire* to pillage, destroy, and pervert but a previously LG character would likely know *something* is wrong with them.Personally I think that having a CE alignment means a little more than having terrible urges. It means you are at least somewhat willing to act on those desires as well. Probably not to the extent of just killing anybody, whenever, just because you feel like id (AKA "Stupid Evil") but you definitely would no longer see anything wrong with murder and rapine. If you were formerly LG, you might still keep your religious beliefs, but would be hypocritical or blind to the contradictions somehow. Probably, though, you would become disillusioned and lose your faith, since its tenets no longer "make sense" to you.

Of course, thats somewhat moot to the point as the OPs character was originally Neutral, rather than LG. So a shift to CE would be...much less drastic. From his perspective, all that fence-sitting he did on moral issues was a waste of time, and he sees the reality of things more clearly now.

But yeah, that's the IC perspective. There still needs to be a way to save the game, and if that means deciding alignment change (in this case, at least) feels like a fuzzy-headed curse, DO that. I'm going to (again) propose that a wish might be spent in reaction to the change, effectively preventing it from ever happening.

The "I wish to not ever detect as Evil" plan works, too. That has the benefit of allowing both the interesting fresh-alignment roleplay (which the OP seems interested in) and maintains some degree of party cohesion. There will still be long-term problems, though, so be wary.

Zincorium
2007-04-10, 04:24 PM
Alright, a few things that might change some of the suggestions:

1. As a character, I don't know there will be a paladin in the vicinity anytime soon. This is strictly ooc knowledge.

2. Alignments aren't a placard on our character's chest, only people who can detect alignment are ever really sure who is what, everyone else filters it through their own perception. In character, I know something changed when I drew the balance card. I don't know that it's bad.

3. Like the moon card says, 4 minutes. I don't have time to investigate the pros and cons of everything. It's going to be mostly gut instinct.

4. Cards were drawn simultaneously, but the Balance card was 'last'.

Dan_Hemmens
2007-04-10, 04:49 PM
2. Alignments aren't a placard on our character's chest, only people who can detect alignment are ever really sure who is what, everyone else filters it through their own perception. In character, I know something changed when I drew the balance card. I don't know that it's bad.


If you know something changed, you can wish for it to be changed back. If your GM has a go at you for metagaming, wreck his game.

daggaz
2007-04-10, 05:37 PM
You have four minutes to make those wishes... four minutes that your character will spend thinking about everything he could possibly wish for.... Unless you were an EXTREMELY selfless, altruistic person before hand, it is highly doubtful you will notice any difference in your personality in this time frame.

A paladin might stop and think... oh gods, why am I being so selfish and greedy all of a sudden? Why cant I force myself to think of the children?? And thus come to a sudden realisation that something has gone drastically wrong.. and then not really care about it, because he has in essence, already fallen. Both as a paladin, and to the darker corrupting forces that now control his motivations.

Most other characters would probably be so overwhelmed with the four wishes, that thinking about all the power they could now wish for would just come naturally. In effect, there would be no interaction for you to base any realisation upon... Remember, you only have four minutes to figure it out..It could easily take days for a character to realize their inner motivations have drastically changed, depending on how much stimuli they are exposed to.

That said, it is highly unlikely that any character would eventually wish for an alignment change in this situation. Especially when you take into consideration that their alignment is now evil and entirely selfserving, as well as without any sense of direction or order. Why in the nine-hells would they want to change? More like, "Heh, screw you guys, I rule now, I'm gonna do whatever I want. This is so f-ing cool!"

Finally, even if you did metagame and do it... Wish, if you use the safe, constrained version, can't change your alignment anyhow. Not by RAW. You can duplicate spells, none of which permanently change alignment.... or you can try to misdue fortune... now that one by RAW says you get to reroll a bad roll. There are no rerolls here, so trying to undo your alignment change would fall into the greater effect wish... and we all know what usually happens there (tho the granting powers might be kind and choose not to pervert such a wish.. but still, its metagaming man).

I would just RP it out, see what happens. Use the wishes to give your character as much power as possible (this fits your immediate motivation). Dont even think about the paladin, you dont even know he is a problem yet. Then RP it out. Let the DM handle the situation, and everybody gets to learn something about DnD.

By the way, if people are open minded, there is nothing inherently bad about two players suddenly going to eachother's throats. It could be a very fun RP situation. It could even save a really boring campaign, for example...

Dragonmuncher
2007-04-10, 05:38 PM
Here are the best three things I can suggest:

First: You're CE, and you have 4 wishes coming to you. Since it just happened, how about roleplaying it like this: The first wish, something good and altruistic, that benefits the group, or possibly a relative or a town or the like.

Next two, your urges are a little darker- wish for something more selfish. Powerful item, something bad to happen to an enemy, etc.

Last wish, have a brain freeze. The clock's ticking, you only have a few seconds left to think of something... wish for "Whatever is best for me." Talk to your DM beforehand, and have him interpret the wish as "restore my original alignment."

It's a non-metagaming way to do it, sort of. A CE person would definitely want what's best for himself, and you're essentially giving up a wish to do it. That first "good" wish is another way to placate your DM, if he's mad about metagaming.

Second: Wish for constant NonDetection.

Third, talk to your DM about getting an out of some kind, because the entire situation just stinks.

Dan_Hemmens
2007-04-10, 05:41 PM
It's a non-metagaming way to do it, sort of. A CE person would definitely want what's best for himself, and you're essentially giving up a wish to do it. That first "good" wish is another way to placate your DM, if he's mad about metagaming.

Sorry to fixate on this detail, but I do think it's important: the statement "A CE person would/would not" is meaningless. Alignments are very, very broad concepts, so broad in fact as to be essentially meaningless as guides to a character's personality. Whatever you do, don't think in terms of "what would a Chaotic Evil person do" think in terms of "what would my character do".

Ravyn
2007-04-10, 05:55 PM
If Decks of Many Things have an in-game reputation for screwing people over without them realizing it, what about "I wish for any feature of having drawn from this deck that might have negative effects on my friends or my relationship with them to be reversed"? Doesn't quite smack of metagame, and CE doesn't mean lacking emotional attachments.... or a sense of self-preservation.

Mewtarthio
2007-04-10, 06:04 PM
If Decks of Many Things have an in-game reputation for screwing people over without them realizing it, what about "I wish for any feature of having drawn from this deck that might have negative effects on my friends or my relationship with them to be reversed"? Doesn't quite smack of metagame, and CE doesn't mean lacking emotional attachments.... or a sense of self-preservation.

Unfortunately, given the high level of "screwing people over" that the Deck is capable of, that fits squarely into the "too powerful" category.

Ravyn
2007-04-10, 06:08 PM
In this case, it should just target the alignment switch, since it explicitly requests any results of having drawn, not future draws: would you prefer "Any result of my last three draws that might have..." Shouldn't be too powerful.

Dausuul
2007-04-10, 07:19 PM
Well, since your character is now Chaotic Evil and likes it, there's not much you personally can do. However, you can (as a player) suggest that your friends grab you and overpower you, then dig up a helm of opposite alignment from someplace and jam it onto your head. This assumes, of course, that they saw the card you drew and knew what it meant, or else that the paladin happens to ping you with detect evil when he gets back from town.

Fizban
2007-04-10, 07:43 PM
The core of this situation is the alignment change. The rest is just thinking of what your character wants most, and thinking big. Remember that he doesn't know anything about the mechanics of wish, and will probably make the same obvious wishes that people have in real life (a million dollars, be king of the world, revive lost loved one, etc).

I like my alignments loose. In this situation, I would say that you don't notice anything until you have to make a big decision that relates to the way you used to always act, and even then you'll just think more ruthlessly.

Say you like to take care of the homeless. Instead of asking for a donation, if given the opportunity you would be tempted to steal. If you saw someone beating up a bum, instead of scaring them off you might be tempted to shoot first. You wouldn't harm the homeless in any way. You simply put whatever you used to care about more first than it was before, and care less about other people's values. Bah, I probably just killed my own point.

Toliudar
2007-04-10, 08:28 PM
Okay, I know that metagame thinking is frowned upon in this group, but why not suck up the change, and try to find a way to go with it for a while?

Talk to the paladin's player, and see if he can notice the change in his friend - initiating a whole new plot thread to try to get the action reversed. Maybe you start out enjoying the "freedom" a lot, then start to feel twinges of guilt about the harm your selfishness causes, and so start to work with the paladin (or, or at least, don't resist his efforts) to effect a cure. It becomes a whole story arc.

Instead of losing his paladinhood, I'd say he gets major brownie points for reclaiming one lost to evil. He gets to be holy-boy. You get an interesting character arc. And four wishes that you can be completely justified in using in a selfish way!

Clementx
2007-04-10, 08:39 PM
Another way to get nondetection without metagaming out of your new alignment: you are selfish and erratic, while previously you were very accepting and free. Ask, "I wish no one would judge me." An obvious effect in line with the power of Wish is for a nondetection item.

Basically, you were screwed the minute you drew any cards. It's a shell game. You've lost as soon as you think you have a chance of getting the right card.

Yahzi
2007-04-10, 09:49 PM
Wish for another DoMT, and then wish you drew exactly like you did before.

This will get you another 500K gold, 4 more wishes, and reverse your alignment again. It's justifiable because your character nets 2 more wishes out of it!

Then, of course, the DM has to have somebody show up and say "ix-nay on the wishing for more wishes," but you still get your alignment back (and the extra gold). That should make everybody happy.

Ponce
2007-04-10, 10:47 PM
Wish for another DoMT, and then wish you drew exactly like you did before.

This will get you another 500K gold, 4 more wishes, and reverse your alignment again. It's justifiable because your character nets 2 more wishes out of it!

Then, of course, the DM has to have somebody show up and say "ix-nay on the wishing for more wishes," but you still get your alignment back (and the extra gold). That should make everybody happy.

I don't think the Wish spell goes so far as to allow you to wish for Artifacts.

If your character is already acquainted with the Paladin, it is unlikely that he will attempt to scan your character, I think. Your character is, I assume, smart enough to avoid doing anything that would warrant suspicion from these righteous types. If your character is inherently generous, as you say, he would likely still see a Paladin as good company. I'd say use the wishes greedily, as your new point of view would demand. Deal with The Man later.

Jothki
2007-04-10, 11:51 PM
I don't think the Wish spell goes so far as to allow you to wish for Artifacts.

Yeah, you probably wouldn't be able to use Wish to directly counteract the effect of an Artifact either. Wish isn't all-powerful, it's just unusually creative if you give it something beyond its normal scope.

Maryring
2007-04-11, 12:12 AM
Balance

The character must change to a radically different alignment. If the character fails to act according to the new alignment, she gains a negative level.Alignment is determined by actions, not the other way around. So in order to radically change your alignment, you need to radically change your actions. It doesn't matter if you were neutral before, the change will be so extreme that both you and your friends will realize it pretty quickly. You should notice it seconds within having drawn the card. Your friends should realize it within days, even hours.


Wish, if you use the safe, constrained version, can't change your alignment anyhow. Not by RAW. You can duplicate spells, none of which permanently change alignment...

Not true.



Atonement

Abjuration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#abjuration)

Level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#level):Clr 5 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericSpells.htm#fifthLevelClericSpells), Drd 5 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/druidSpells.htm#fifthLevelDruidSpells)Components (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#components):V, S, M, F, DF, XPCasting Time (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#castingTime):1 hourRange (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#range):TouchTarget (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#targetorTargets):Living creature touchedDuration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#duration):InstantaneousSavin g Throw (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#savingThrow):NoneSpell Resistance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#spellResistance):Yes
This spell removes the burden of evil acts or misdeeds from the subject. The creature seeking atonement must be truly repentant and desirous of setting right its misdeeds. If the atoning creature committed the evil act unwittingly or under some form of compulsion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#charmAndCompulsion), atonement operates normally at no cost to you. However, in the case of a creature atoning for deliberate misdeeds and acts of a knowing and willful nature, you must intercede with your deity (requiring you to expend 500 XP) in order to expunge the subjectís burden. Many casters first assign a subject of this sort a quest (see geas/quest (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/geasQuest.htm)) or similar penance to determine whether the creature is truly contrite before casting the atonement spell on its behalf.
Atonement may be cast for one of several purposes, depending on the version selected.
Reverse Magical Alignment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm#alignment) Change

If a creature has had its alignment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm#alignment) magically changed, atonement returns its alignment to its original status at no cost in experience points.
Restore Class

A paladin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/paladin.htm) who has lost her class features due to committing an evil act may have her paladinhood restored to her by this spell.
Restore Cleric or Druid Spell Powers

A cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm) or druid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm) who has lost the ability to cast spells by incurring the anger of his or her deity may regain that ability by seeking atonement from another cleric of the same deity or another druid. If the transgression was intentional, the casting cleric loses 500 XP for his intercession. If the transgression was unintentional, he does not lose XP.
Redemption or Temptation

You may cast this spell upon a creature of an opposing alignment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm#alignment) in order to offer it a chance to change its alignment to match yours. The prospective subject must be present for the entire casting process. Upon completion of the spell, the subject freely chooses whether it retains its original alignment or acquiesces to your offer and changes to your alignment. No duress, compulsion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#charmAndCompulsion), or magical influence can force the subject to take advantage of the opportunity offered if it is unwilling to abandon its old alignment. This use of the spell does not work on outsiders (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#outsiderType) or any creature incapable of changing its alignment naturally.
Though the spell description refers to evil acts, atonement can also be used on any creature that has performed acts against its alignment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm#alignment), whether those acts are evil, good, chaotic, or lawful.
Note: Normally, changing alignment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm#alignment) is up to the player. This use of atonement simply offers a believable way for a character to change his or her alignment drastically, suddenly, and definitively.
Material Component

Burning incense.
Focus

In addition to your holy symbol or normal divine focus, you need a set of prayer beads (or other prayer device, such as a prayer wheel or prayer book) worth at least 500 gp.
XP Cost

When cast for the benefit of a creature whose guilt was the result of deliberate acts, the cost to you is 500 XP per casting (see above).


Wish can mimic any spell that is of fifth level or lower, regardless of anything. Atonement is a fifth level spell.

Helgraf
2007-04-11, 12:52 AM
Heh, go paradox. Wish the deck of many things never existed.

See how much of the world is suddenly tore up - how many people are suddenly freed (Donjon card never drawn), how many keeps disappear, how many people return to life (never slain by the minor death), how many shocking betrayls are reversed...

Innit fun?!

Ponce
2007-04-11, 01:11 AM
Alignment is determined by actions, not the other way around. So in order to radically change your alignment, you need to radically change your actions. It doesn't matter if you were neutral before, the change will be so extreme that both you and your friends will realize it pretty quickly. You should notice it seconds within having drawn the card. Your friends should realize it within days, even hours.

Assuming your timing is correct, here, there is no reason why the character can't immediately begin to make a reasonable effort to fool his companions. Being neutral and feinting neutrality to maintain the trust of those around you for some future, devious purpose, I think, qualify as radically different. It works out rather nicely, actually, given your history of genuine benevolence, it is unlikely anyone will suspect you if a wallet turns up missing. You don't have to be blantently evil. Hiding it and being deceitful is fairly evil in itself.


Heh, go paradox. Wish the deck of many things never existed.

See how much of the world is suddenly tore up - how many people are suddenly freed (Donjon card never drawn), how many keeps disappear, how many people return to life (never slain by the minor death), how many shocking betrayls are reversed...

Innit fun?!

See above. That is outside the scope of the spell.

Wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm)

Dan_Hemmens
2007-04-11, 04:13 AM
Well, since your character is now Chaotic Evil and likes it, there's not much you personally can do.

Nowhere does it state the character "likes it".

geek_2049
2007-04-11, 04:45 AM
Wish everyone in your party to draw another card. Spice things up a bit, again.

Zincorium
2007-04-11, 04:57 AM
Well, thanks for the suggestions I guess, although I suspect I phrased my original question too broadly.

Yeah, thought about the 'wish for an alignment change' thing, and it's just flat out not going to happen, either for my character who is ignorant of the fact that his new personality makes him detect as evil, and the paladin who will not be anywhere around during the four minutes is also out.

Talked with my DM earlier, and with selected bits of misinformation and an intelligent approach to the alignment, we think we can work it out. I'm just hoping I don't cost the paladin his powers, I have a feeling my character is going to like him. Even chaotic evil people stick by their friends.

Maryring
2007-04-11, 07:18 AM
If that's how your group do it. The way I read it, Balance not only forces you to detect as a different alignment, but it forces a complete change of personality. Anyway, the second the Paladin finds out that you're evil, only destruction can come out of it. I hope you're good at Bluff and Disguise.

Ranis
2007-04-11, 09:33 AM
Nowhere does it state the character "likes it".

Have you seen an evil person who didn't "like it?"

Helgraf
2007-04-11, 11:08 AM
Assuming your timing is correct, here, there is no reason why the character can't immediately begin to make a reasonable effort to fool his companions. Being neutral and feinting neutrality to maintain the trust of those around you for some future, devious purpose, I think, qualify as radically different. It works out rather nicely, actually, given your history of genuine benevolence, it is unlikely anyone will suspect you if a wallet turns up missing. You don't have to be blantently evil. Hiding it and being deceitful is fairly evil in itself.


See above. That is outside the scope of the spell.

Wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm)

Yeah yeah yeah. You and your modern editions and your limited not-limited wishes.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-11, 11:28 AM
Have you seen an evil person who didn't "like it?"

//points at picture of his mother.

Jayabalard
2007-04-11, 11:54 AM
Ah, but that in itself would be an act violating his current alignment. :smalltongue:The rules are sort of contradictiory on that. The rules specifically about alignment state that alignment isn't a straightjacket... implying that it's a reflection of your actions, not the control; and some spots, mostly ones that are about alignment being forcibly changed, treat it as if it has some sort of control over the characters' actions.

In my opinion, it's best to go with is the former and treat "alignment change" effects as magical compulsions with much more specific effects. In which case you don't start detecting as a different alignment until your actions shift you to it.

Really "reverse alignment" effects are pretty poorly implemented in D&D... I personally find it best for the game to just toss them and use a different type of curse.

Starbuck_II
2007-04-11, 12:04 PM
Have you seen an evil person who didn't "like it?"
Yes, it was on the movie Serenity: the Operative. He didn't like the evil he had done, but he truly believes the motto, "Ends Justify the Means". Most evil people do.
He believes he can help create a perfect world by doing this evil, but he also knows he can't exist in this perfect world.

jgmaurer
2007-04-11, 04:33 PM
You've just been given something great, and I have a solution....but it will require a sacrifice on your part...

Something similar happened to one of my characters a while back. the only real difference is that instead of the 4 wishes, I aquired the card that made you a lord of a keep (but you could mimic that with the wishes....or more). As a CE character, you're new goal is to aquire power at all costs....just wish for what you want then make a new character :smallsmile:

My old character became the main villain of the campaign....

This way you save the campaign AND make your immortal mark on it :belkar: