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monotone
2007-04-10, 09:25 AM
Just a quick question for all the DM's out there: How do you balance your party's wealth?
Half of my gaming group counts every copper, squirrels it all away and then buys big shiny toys that cost them every last silver.
Then there is the other half. The get money and they lose it just as fast. Potions, scrolls, alchemical items or any other one shot item you could think of they buy it (and proceed to use it). Or they have lots of small plus items that get obsolete quickly and need replacing, thus grinding them out of more money.
Then there is the cleric. He refuses to use his spells to heal, he prefers buff & blasting, so he buys wands of cure. These get sucked dry very fast and then more are bought. The overall effect is that his WBL is almost a level lower than the rest of the groups.
Thoughts?

Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick
2007-04-10, 09:30 AM
You might try adjusting your treasure into more useful items and fewer coins or gems; but if they're just selling everything, thence this problem?

Then you need to have a talk with your players about wise use of resources, especially if you feel they're putting themselves at risk (or alternatively, rendering themselves too powerful).

Also, as the DM, you can rule that certain items don't have an infinite supply- perhaps wands and alchemist's fire are hard to come by in Blargia, kingdom of the Blarg-elves.

NullAshton
2007-04-10, 09:34 AM
Nothing is really needed. There are two play styles, purchasing permanent items and purchasing temporary items. Temporary items is harder to use since you have to balance resources, but if done correctly it can be more powerful.

So what you should ask yourself is... are both halves of your group having fun? If so, nothing needs to change. One-shot items are there for a reason.

monotone
2007-04-10, 09:34 AM
You might try adjusting your treasure into more useful items and fewer coins or gems; but if they're just selling everything, thence this problem?

No, I have accountants in my group. They calculate the cost of every thing and if someone wants an item they must "pay" the group for it by taking less treasure of other varieties.


Also, as the DM, you can rule that certain items don't have an infinite supply- perhaps wands and alchemist's fire are hard to come by in Blargia, kingdom of the Blarg-elves.

I do do this, but they just buy other stuff. Also, they travel a lot and thus gain access to new markets

Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick
2007-04-10, 09:40 AM
True enough, but the mercantile supply chain always travels at the speed of plot. :smallwink:

The former point is actually fine; if you have a treasure that's all gold and one +5 shield, whoever gets that shield is going to get less coinage. Dandy fine- they have a shiny new shield.

If it really becomes a problem, you could put them up against a rust monster or disenchanter, or, in extreme cases, disjoin them, but this is likely to rouse anger.

Also, as Ashton said, there is merit to both playstyles. As long as your players are capable of continuing their adventure, and having fun, let it ride.

Hunter_Rose
2007-04-10, 09:59 AM
The best way I have always used to cut down on hoarding is to limit items of holding. It's tough to cart around 5000 lbs. of gear, and if you make a caravan of pack horses then you become a target for bandits and brigands. Plus if a party of 10 heavily laden pack horses come into town and their owner set themselves up in the best inn in town a HUGE red flag will go out to the theives guild for fatty pickings. Pretty soon your party will realize that it's not such a good idea to cart around loads and loads of treasure.

Of course if your group is smart they will make their treasure more portable by changing the gold into gems.

storybookknight
2007-04-10, 10:03 AM
My party is... well, let's just say "probably undertreasured" and leave it at that. I've handed out a lot of cash recently in an effort to alleviate some of that, but it's sort of an uphill battle. A lot of times they fight dudes where it doesn't make sense for there to be huge piles of gold just hangin' around...

In any case, the next game I run will be a campaign where I have more control over such things as experience and WBL by virtue of having the entire thing planned out dungeon-style, rather than the ongoing world-hopping outdoor-fighting campaign we have now.

h2doh
2007-04-10, 10:15 AM
Do talk to your cleric in the very least, sure he doesn't want to be a heal-bot but he is using up a huge amount of his resources. besides, healing items should come out of the party fund. It makes no sence that the party is getting free healing while the cleric is stuck in the dark ages monitarily. If the rest of the party refuses to pitch in for the wands, have the cleric refuse to heal anyone unless they pay him per/hp the equivelent gp/charge/spell. actually have him charge more so that he can make a profit and slowly get back into his proper wealth range. there is nothing worse than ungreatfull pc's who treat the cleric as a band-aid.

LotharBot
2007-04-10, 02:23 PM
Regarding healing:

Between combats (when there's no time pressure), the cleric should be using a wand of CLW for levels 1-4 and scrolls of CLW at levels 5-endgame. This gives the most healing per gp*. The only reason to use bigger items is if it's important to heal someone quickly -- in which case, the characters should be carrying around their own potions, or the cleric should be carrying around Heal scrolls.

*Average gold per HP (lower is better):

scroll CLW - 2.6 gp/hp at CL5 (scrolls use your caster level, and CLW is +caster level, max 5)
wand CLW - 2.7 (all wands are fixed caster level, and therefore, fixed cost)
wand CMW - 7.5
scroll CMW - 7.9
potion CLW - 9
scroll Heal - 11
wand CSW - 12
scroll CSW - 13.1
wand CCW - 16.8
scroll CCW - 18.4
staff of healing: CSW - 19.5
staff of life: Heal - 20.8
potion CMW - 25
potion CSW - 40

The scrolls are a little more expensive if your caster level is below the max for that particular spell, but for the most part, scrolls of CLW and Heal (when time is of the essence) are your best bet once you reach level 5 (with a wand of CLW slightly cheaper levels 1-4.) If you gave your party this chart and had them pay for their own healing, chances are pretty good they'd opt for scrolls of CLW and a Heward's Handy Haversack for the cleric.

Regarding general treasure distribution:

If everyone is doing it by choice, there's no reason to fix it. If the cleric believes he's better off buying lots of one-shot items while the fighter believes he's better off using 3 adventures worth of cash to buy a single super sword, let them learn.

If the party is forcing the cleric (or someone else) into wasting their wealth on one-shot items, suggest and/or decree that those items should come out of general party funds. If the party decides they want the wizard to cast "fly" on everyone using scrolls, everyone should put an equal amount into buying the fly scrolls.

In general, your party should be willing to recognize that they're all better off if nobody is left behind. If the cleric is stuck wearing mwk chainmail with no magic items except a big stack of healing scrolls, and the fighter has a +2 holy sword and a +4 belt of giant strength, that's a problem that needs pointed out. Once it's been pointed out, it's up to your players to deal with. They can decide to bring the cleric up to the same level as everyone else, or they can decide not to. If they decide to be stupid, that's their problem.

Thrawn183
2007-04-10, 05:23 PM
I may have misinterpreted the OP, so bear with me. I think the problem is that if a pc saves up long enough they can buy an item that costs 80% of their entire wealth because they haven't bought anything for 3 or 4 levels. If this is the case, it means your encounters are too easy. If a character can survive by not buying new equipment and save up for something really nice and get it earlier than they probably aught to, they are either over golded (not this case apparently) or they just aren't being challenged. A high level character with low level equipment should be getting killed.

On the other hand, buying some expendables is just good sense. Going only expendables... not so much. Your casters should always have some scrolls. Everyone should have potions of certain spells in case they get separated. I think you get my drift, so I'll stop here.

Devils_Advocate
2007-04-10, 05:28 PM
LotharBot, I'm pretty sure that you're wrong about scrolls using the reader's caster level. You may have them confused with how staffs work.

I concur with the general consensus that there's not necessarily a problem here. Neither approach to spending money is inherently right or wrong, nor inherently a more effective use of resources than the other. So long as no one in the group has a problem with how wealth is being split up and spent... well, then there's probably no real issue. This difference in the characters' habits is due to each of them being able to buy and use items as he or she sees fit -- which, all else being equal, is a good thing.

Grr
2007-04-10, 05:33 PM
Just ignore the WBL chart. If the players are having fun and don't seem to be having trouble facing the encounters you throw at them, don't worry about it.

LotharBot
2007-04-10, 05:48 PM
LotharBot, I'm pretty sure that you're wrong about scrolls using the reader's caster level.

It appears you're right. Guess it's a house rule for us.

That changes the equation somewhat, but still leaves us with the conclusion that it's vastly cheaper (per HP) to use CLW items whenever you can.

Fizban
2007-04-10, 07:11 PM
The WBL guidelines are a starting point, but the average treasure is meant to provide about 10% extra for consumables. Other than that, they'll be sorry eventually. The hoarders are killing themselves now by not buying anything, and the spenders won't be able to buy the basic ability enhancers that the game assumes you will have later.

kamikasei
2007-04-11, 07:46 PM
That changes the equation somewhat, but still leaves us with the conclusion that it's vastly cheaper (per HP) to use CLW items whenever you can.

I'm baffled. Cheaper than what? It's cheaper in terms of gp-per-hp to use wands of CLW than any other magic item (going off of your chart there), but why bother with using items for healing at all?

It seems you've worked out the best options for a cleric who absolutely refuses to prepare or convert any healing spells, but I don't see how what you say supports the decision to do that in the first place.

Ethdred
2007-04-11, 09:50 PM
Just ignore the WBL chart. If the players are having fun and don't seem to be having trouble facing the encounters you throw at them, don't worry about it.


Yes, yes, yes - I'll even forgive you the PMcC quote in your sig for this level of wisdom. If only everyone could realise that it's all about 'fun you idiot' and that a DM can construct any encounter he likes. But hey-ho...