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SirNMN
2015-03-23, 12:59 AM
I am running a campaign from storm and the party has turned to pirating and so the druid runs around wood shaping holes in ships I need a way to keep this from happening or limit its power because right now I am not sure how to deal with it

Maglubiyet
2015-03-23, 01:04 AM
Is this D&D 3.5/Pathfinder? Wood Shape is a touch spell, so how is the druid getting close enough to use it? That might be the first way they could defend against that attack -- shoot anyone that approaches.

And if they're sinking the ships, how do they pirate anything if the ship they're attacking is at the bottom of the ocean?

Kid Jake
2015-03-23, 01:04 AM
Do it back to them. Other pirates think their strategy is pretty nifty and pick it up themselves.

Karl Aegis
2015-03-23, 01:05 AM
Ironclads should be somewhat effective.

SirNMN
2015-03-23, 03:16 AM
Ironclads should be somewhat effective.
Ironclads aren't effected but are also a slow ship


Do it back to them. Other pirates think their strategy is pretty nifty and pick it up themselves.
once they leave anyone alive to report the idea plan on it, might bring it in to play any way but they have three of the crew standing by with a scroll of it at all time to fix it if someone does it to them


Is this D&D 3.5/Pathfinder? Wood Shape is a touch spell, so how is the druid getting close enough to use it? That might be the first way they could defend against that attack -- shoot anyone that approaches.

And if they're sinking the ships, how do they pirate anything if the ship they're attacking is at the bottom of the ocean?
The druid just become a shark dives and them comes up under the ship
the loot the ships with potions of water breathing and the druid

Thrudd
2015-03-23, 12:08 PM
Ironclads aren't effected but are also a slow ship


once they leave anyone alive to report the idea plan on it, might bring it in to play any way but they have three of the crew standing by with a scroll of it at all time to fix it if someone does it to them


The druid just become a shark dives and them comes up under the ship
the loot the ships with potions of water breathing and the druid

Eventually, people should become aware that ships are disappearing in this area. They will start only going out with armed escorts or in flotillas. Also, a ship sinking from a hole does not happen instantaneously and lots of people will survive and be floating in the water. Are there never any Druids or mages on board other ships, that have familiars or wildshapes that can swim or fly and escape?

At some point, people with money and power will get concerned and start sending military and adventurer types out there to see what is happening to all the ships. Then they will have groups equal to their own powers hunting them. Maybe they will be good guys, maybe mercenary bounty hunters, maybe both. And warships will be on the lookout as well. The life of a pirate should not be an easy one, they should always be on the run, looking for the easy score and trying to avoid hunters and soldiers that will attack and kill them on sight.

Maglubiyet
2015-03-23, 12:19 PM
Yeah, as Thrudd said. When people start losing money and men they're going to start sitting up and taking notice and making inquiries. In a world where you can cast spells like Divination, they'll figure it out pretty quickly.

Maybe have the merchant companies make a deal with some underwater races, like tritons or sea elves, to provide an underwater escort. Place another wild shape druid on board to dive in and Wood Shape the holes closed once they're made. They could even set a trap for the PC's -- leak rumors of a cargo ship loaded with some precious treasure and then station a garrison of spellcasters in the hold.

Strigon
2015-03-23, 04:25 PM
As a GM, you're going to have to get used to this sort of thing; players trying to outwit the game happens in every setting, so I'd start looking for ways to fight back.
As others have mentioned, it takes quite some time to sink a ship, even with magic.
Once someone survives (which isn't hard in a fantasy world like this), and the authorities know what they're up against, you can use appropriate countermeasures. Luckily, this is one of the rare cases where you can specifically target and shut down one strategy and still be a good GM. Underwater escorts work well, and it became common practice a few hundred years ago to line the bottoms of ships with copper, to increase both speed and durability. No reason why it shouldn't happen here.

And never forget: there's more than just your druid in the ocean. Not only should ships be used to fending off attacks from the depths, but your druid just might run into something that he can't handle on his own.
For all its faults, the Phantom Menace got one thing right: there's always a bigger fish.

Beta Centauri
2015-03-23, 04:32 PM
I am running a campaign from storm and the party has turned to pirating and so the druid runs around wood shaping holes in ships I need a way to keep this from happening or limit its power because right now I am not sure how to deal with it I'm sure people here can tell you how to deal with that, but fixing this problem probably isn't going to help. The players will just find something else to get the kind of game they want, and they'll probably push back against the reasons you give for why it can't work

So, talk to them about the kind of game they want. If they want an easy game in which they've got the key to all the gold they need, give it to them. If they want a challenging game, in which their ideas don't always work, give that to them. If you're not sure how to do that, honestly tell them that and then ask for their ideas. If they don't think their "win button" (whatever it happens to be) should work all the time, ask them what they think can stop it.

Good luck.

BootStrapTommy
2015-03-23, 04:38 PM
once they leave anyone alive to report the idea plan on it, might bring it in to play any way but they have three of the crew standing by with a scroll of it at all time to fix it if someone does it to them It's kinda a no **** tactic anyway. Leibniz and Newton both invented calculus contemporarily. If another druid uses Wood Shape to repair the ship they're on, they would be likely to use it offensively too and vice versa. Two can play at that game.


The druid just become a shark dives and them comes up under the ship
the loot the ships with potions of water breathing and the druid Make the sinking ruin most of the cargo. I.e. smash the china, soil the carpets and silks, ruin the food, kill the valuable livestock, tarnish the metals, break open the potions, etc. Cargo full of poisons? Now they're swimming into an under water cloud of the stuff!

Pirating should give players money mostly in the sense of tradeable goods, as oppose to simply gold and silver. These good are mostly going to be wrecked by sinking.

SirNMN
2015-03-24, 12:00 AM
Make the sinking ruin most of the cargo. I.e. smash the china, soil the carpets and silks, ruin the food, kill the valuable livestock, tarnish the metals, break open the potions, etc. Cargo full of poisons? Now they're swimming into an under water cloud of the stuff!

Pirating should give players money mostly in the sense of tradeable goods, as oppose to simply gold and silver. These good are mostly going to be wrecked by sinking.
I think this is what I will go with I have already done some and I can just increase the amounts they are losing by destroying rather than capturing the vessel thanks for all the input I has given me some good things to think about

Lord Torath
2015-03-24, 08:16 AM
Leibniz and Newton both invented calculus contemporarily. If another druid uses Wood Shape to repair the ship they're on, they would be likely to use it offensively too and vice versa. Two can play at that game.This. There's no reason to wait for survivors before implementing this strategy against them. After all, if they came up with it, someone else could too. Plus, Speak With Dead is a fairly low-level spell. So unless they're taking care to destroy all the corpses, the next ship on the scene will be able to procure a corpse. If there's no cleric on board, they will at least spread the word, and there will shortly be an investigative team on site with the required spells.

Edit: Is the druidic shape-shifting magical? How about an anti-magic field centered in the lower hold of the "bait" vessel?

Lacco
2015-03-25, 01:51 AM
I must agree with Thrudd. Someone will lose money and if they lose enough, they will start looking for the cause. And when I say start looking, I mean find & eliminate.

I'm not as familiar with D&D to be sure about specific spells, but if Sending works as the spell from OOTS, then - next ship will "send" for help.

And response? A "bait" ship. And near - an invisible ship full of shark hunters. One mage with enough dispelling/counterspelling magic to counter the druid. And a closed aquarium for the druid to spend the rest of his life in... in mansion of the guy who paid for this. As an attraction :smallbiggrin:

Sith_Happens
2015-03-25, 04:10 AM
The druid just become a shark dives and them comes up under the ship
the loot the ships with potions of water breathing and the druid

Oceans are deep. Really deep. Really really deep. Far, far deeper than you can just swim to the bottom of at your leisure to collect the loot you let sink.

Hjolnai
2015-03-25, 04:47 AM
D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder both limit the target of Wood Shape to "One touched piece of wood no larger than 10 cu. ft. + 1 cu. ft./level", with no clause allowing only part of an object to be transformed. If you consider a ship as a single object, it should be out of the volume limit and so an invalid target. If you allow a single plank to be targeted, well, some construction styles would involve overlapping layers and might not leak that quickly (enough to put the ship under eventually, but not enough to sink it before it can be fixed).

A ship also might count as attended (since there's someone steering the thing), in which case it gets a saving throw. This argument is a bit more dubious though.

Altair_the_Vexed
2015-03-25, 08:01 AM
IIRC, Stormwrack specifically states that this spell can't be used on ships - if you bother using such source books.

NomGarret
2015-03-25, 08:49 AM
IIRC, Stormwrack specifically states that this spell can't be used on ships - if you bother using such source books.

Just checked. It does. "You can't damage a ship with this spell; the area affected is too small."

So you have sources to back up your reasons to reverse course as to why it shouldn't work anymore. Now you just need an in-game reason it will stop working. Off the top of my head: wild magic. The BBEG probably did it.

BootStrapTommy
2015-03-25, 12:07 PM
D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder both limit the target of Wood Shape to "One touched piece of wood no larger than 10 cu. ft. + 1 cu. ft./level", with no clause allowing only part of an object to be transformed. If you consider a ship as a single object, it should be out of the volume limit and so an invalid target. If you allow a single plank to be targeted, well, some construction styles would involve overlapping layers and might not leak that quickly (enough to put the ship under eventually, but not enough to sink it before it can be fixed).

A ship also might count as attended (since there's someone steering the thing), in which case it gets a saving throw. This argument is a bit more dubious though. Theseus' Ship (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus)

An interesting argument on identity and what makes an object made of parts an whole. That being said, there are like to be individual planks on a ship's hull which are the 13 cu. ft. minimum for the spell.

DigoDragon
2015-03-25, 01:04 PM
Maybe have the merchant companies make a deal with some underwater races, like tritons or sea elves, to provide an underwater escort.

I had this amusing thought-- A sea elf mafia. :smallbiggrin:
They sink ships on rare occasion, just a few times to profit water resistant goods from the sunk ship (tools, gold, sealed containers of oil) and usually do it in shallow waters during bad weather so they can make it look like an accident (Storm call spells?).

However, someone is sinking a lot of ship in their territory, taking their profits, AND they're littering broken ships in their neighborhood! Time to fit some air balloon shoes on these PCs (cause of course, a sea creature isn't too bother with cement shoes, so they tie other sea elves to a balloon that lifts them out of the water and into the air, now, apply this to a PC-- hilarity. Course if you want to kill them that's easy. Dispel the water breathing).