Superhero/villian alignments [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Nerd-o-rama

2007-04-12, 06:07 AM

When will people learn that you can't force arbitrarily defined precepts of good, evil, law, and chaos onto characters that exist in the system such precepts were designed for, let alone onto characters from wholly different cosmologies and world views.

For example, I fail to see how Iron Man is Evil. A jerk? Sure. But he's got the best interests of his country and his people at heart. As does Captain America, who is arguably Lawful Good despite his recent going-rogue, as he only did so to stand up for a very specific Lawful Good ideology, outdated though it may have been.

God, I listen to people talk about Civil War too much.

Anyway, Superman, Lawful Good. Except Silver Age Superman, apparently, who's just a ****.

kerberos

2007-04-12, 11:12 AM

When will people learn that you can't force arbitrarily defined precepts of good, evil, law, and chaos onto characters that exist in the system such precepts were designed for, let alone onto characters from wholly different cosmologies and world views.

For example, I fail to see how Iron Man is Evil. A jerk? Sure. But he's got the best interests of his country and his people at heart.
Quite, I question the objectivity of anyone who calls Iron Man evil, but thinks that a certifiable psycho as the Punisher is neutral. I would peg both the Punisher and Rorshack as lawful evil, though of cause you're correct that it's largely meaningless to apply D&D allignements to a non-D&D setting, doesn't even make much sense within the D&D universe.

ZombieEl

2007-04-12, 11:20 AM

kerberos

2007-04-12, 12:12 PM

Tiberian

2007-04-12, 02:23 PM

LG: Colossus
LN: Iron Man (formerly LG)
LE: Kingpin (primarily for methodology)
NE: Morlun
N: Black Cat
NG: Spider-Man
CG: Luke Cage (?)
CN: Deadpool
CE: Bullseye

I'm having an incredibly difficult time placing Daredevil and I'm not entirely sure Luke Cage fits in Chaotic Good, but I couldn't think of another Marvelite that was close enough to CG.

JoshuaZ

2007-04-12, 03:28 PM

Okay, this thread is for the alignments of the supers in general. Here's my take on characters across the alignments:

Lawful Good: Batman
Neutral Good: Captain America
Chaotic Good: Green Arrow
Lawful Neutral: Punisher
Neutral: Deadpool
Chaotic Neutral: Hulk
Lawful Evil: Iron Man
Neutral Evil: Red Skull
Chaotic Evil: Joker

: I think attempting to shoehorn everyone into the alignments isn't generally a good idea. That said, there's no way that Batman or Punisher are Lawful. Punisher works on his own, willing to kill whomever he thinks are evil and is constantly on the run from the government. Batman has similar problems but not as extreme. I'm also curious as to why you label Iron Man as lawful evil.

RMS Oceanic

2007-04-12, 03:44 PM

Um, Complete Scoundrel defines Batman as a Lawful Good scoundrel and Spider-man as Neutral Good, so I'm assuming they're given.

Iron Man is definately lawful neutral. He cares far more for Law than Good any day of the week. Joker is definately Chaotic Evil, seeing as he follows his whims wherever they take him and he has no problems with murder/tortue/etc. Lex Luthor would be Lawful Evil, as he uses and abuses the laws to get what he wants, and will have people disposed wherever possible. Wally West's Flash strikes me as Chaotic Good, since he seems to be rather compulsive and unpredictable in his style.

JoshuaZ

2007-04-12, 03:58 PM

Um, Complete Scoundrel defines Batman as a Lawful Good scoundrel and Spider-man as Neutral Good, so I'm assuming they're given.

Hmm, the batman matter suggests to me that this an example of Wizards not doing their homework and not knowing much about Batman.

kpenguin

2007-04-12, 04:05 PM

I wasn't so sure on Punisher and Iron Man. Looking back on it, I'd put Iron Man at around Lawful Neutral with Lawful Evil tendencies or Lawful Evil, but light on the evil and heavy on the lawful. Punisher... I don't think he's evil. Evil tends to work towards self interest and Frank isn't really that. Also, I don't see him as chaotic. He's too consistent to be chaotic. Maybe not lawful, although order is something he seems to uphold... I'm sure about Batman being lawful, however. He has a devotion to order, despite disobeying earthly laws.

karmuno

2007-04-12, 04:25 PM

Killing isn't evil. Look at Ultimate Magneto, if he was killed when Charles had the chance thousands of inoccent people would be alive. Magneto is a murderer, The Punisher is someone smart enough to make sure people don't get attacked by the same bastards twice.

The Punisher kills 4,000 people. This means he has saved at least that many lives indirectly.

Whether or not killing is "evil" largely depends on the philosophical mindset of the individual hero. For example, Xavier clearly thinks that killing is evil, and frequently scolds the X-Men when people die as a result of their mission. His whole philosophy is that the X-Men will prove that they are not monsters by "rising above" Magneto and the Brotherhood.

Alternatively, Magneto sees killing as a perfectly legitimate way to achieve his goals. While his aspirations, to be seen as better than a monster, are similar to Xavier's, but his methods are different. Is one "right" or "wrong?" That depends on who's answering the question (and, ultimately, what alignment represents: your view on the subject). That's also one of the major themes of that particular series, and there are thousands, perhaps millions of people within the Ultimate universe who would agree with you. Professor Xavier even started to doubt himself. That was unsettling. Anyway, I'm going off topic:

Impulse (I think he's either Kid Flash or Flash proper now) - Chaotic Good
Superman - Lawful Good
Batman - Neutral/Good (undecided)
Iron Man - Lawful Neutral
Punisher - Chaotic Neutral
Magneto - Lawful Evil
Metamorpho - Neutral Good
Sabertooth - Lawful Evil (at least Ultimate sabertooth)
etc.

Tiberian

2007-04-13, 12:43 AM

I would say Punisher is LN, he has a set of goals and plans and sticks to them at nearly all costs (not to mention an extremely restrictive code of conduct [as seen in Civil War]) <Lawful>. However, his M.O. (the judge, jury, and executioner aspect) make it impossible for him to be in any way good...but...he does restrict himself to killing evil men (or women, whatever) [Punisher MAX excluded, as I'm not familiar with Mr. Ennis's run on the character other than some large, sweeping generalizations], with no selfish motivation. His devotion to ridding the world of criminals (mostly murderers, rapists, and other violent offenders) makes him not quite evil - so therefore a very shady, Neutral.

Mewtarthio

2007-04-13, 01:14 AM

Hmm, the batman matter suggests to me that this an example of Wizards not doing their homework and not knowing much about Batman.

Batman is well-known for being incredibly meticulous, creating contingency plans for every possible contingency (doesn't he have a plan to kill everyone in the JLA just in case he needs to?), etc. Sure, he may not follow the laws, but that has little to do with being Lawful. It's easier if you think of it as "Order vs Chaos."

Beleriphon

2007-04-13, 01:34 AM

Hmm, the batman matter suggests to me that this an example of Wizards not doing their homework and not knowing much about Batman.

Or you have an incomplete grasp of Batman, or your opinion just doesn't happen to match WotC's writers. The thing I always try to keep in mind is that Batman isn't a paladin, I would never expect him to be. I do expect him to support Order, even the laws of the land. He simply feels that without his assistance those laws would collapse completely. Add to that meticulousness that he exhibits, and the fact that really he is a good person (despite several quotes from the man himself that would suggest otherwise) lead me to agree with WotC. I could seen argument for a NG Batman, possibly a LN Batman depending who was writing him, but on the whole I think that he leans towards LG in terms of personality and behaviour.

To those trying to avoid the shoehorn, who we're trying to do anything of the nature. Alignment does not define personality or behaviour, rather behaviour and personality define alignment. Thus you take the character as a whole and find the alignment that you feel matches that the best.

I'll give you my list.

LG: Superman
NG: Wonder Woman
CG: Green Arrow or the Flash (Wally West)
LN: Iron Man (post-CW)
TN: Dr Manhattan
CN: Deadpool
LE: Lex Luthor, Gorilla Grodd, Dr Doom
NE: Bullseye
CE: Joker

JoshuaZ

2007-04-13, 08:22 PM

Batman is well-known for being incredibly meticulous, creating contingency plans for every possible contingency (doesn't he have a plan to kill everyone in the JLA just in case he needs to?), etc. Sure, he may not follow the laws, but that has little to do with being Lawful. It's easier if you think of it as "Order vs Chaos."

Good point. (As to the contingency plans, yes at one point he was the last person on earth to have kryptonite. He kept it around in case Superman became a problem). Ok, so Batman is plausibly LG.

Pokemaster

2007-04-13, 08:43 PM

Batman: Lawful Neutral
Superman: Lawful Good
Green Arrow: Chaotic Good
Iron Man: True Neutral
Captain America: Lawful Good
Punisher: Lawful Neutral
Spider-Man: Neutral Good
Wolverine: Chaotic Neutral
Professor X: Lawful Good
Rorschach: Lawful Neutral
V: Chaotic Neutral
Evey: Chaotic Good

And I refuse to accept Batman as Lawful Good. I mean, the guy's the frickin' DARK KNIGHT. By definition, he can't be good.

Wojiz

2007-04-13, 08:58 PM

I dunno, I'd say Batman's Lawful Neutral too. He's not really good or evil, just kind of a midway who doesn't confuse himself with morality. He acts more by the law and what's good for society rather than his own sense of righteousness, which would make him Lawful Neutral.

Dhavaer

2007-04-14, 03:57 AM

He acts more by the law and what's good for society rather than his own sense of righteousness

I think he puts his own sense of righteousness pretty high, mostly with the not killing thing. If he was just out for society's good he'd have killed the Joker years ago.

Nevrmore

2007-04-14, 04:27 AM

Okay, this thread is for the alignments of the supers in general. Here's my take on characters across the alignments:

Lawful Good: Batman
Neutral Good: Captain America
Chaotic Good: Green Arrow
Lawful Neutral: Punisher
Neutral: Deadpool
Chaotic Neutral: Hulk
Lawful Evil: Iron Man
Neutral Evil: Red Skull
Chaotic Evil: Joker
I disagree with most of those.

Batman: Chaotic Good, at best
Captain America: Lawful Good
Green Arrow: Chaotic Good
Punisher: Chaotic Neutral
Deadpool: Chaotic Neutral
Hulk: Chaotic Neutral
Iron Man: Lawful Good (You really think Iron Man is evil?? Did I miss something?)
Red Skull: Lawful Evil
Joker: Chaotic Evil.

Mummy king

2007-04-14, 04:43 AM

Rorschach: LN
Nite owl (Dan Dreiberg): CG
Nite owl (Hollis Mason): NG
Ozymandias: NG (?) ?N
Comedian: CE
Dr. Manhattan: N

Is killing half of new york an evil act, even if it does lift the world to utopia?

Dhavaer

2007-04-14, 06:22 AM

Rorschach: LN
Nite owl (Dan Dreiberg): CG
Nite owl (Hollis Mason): NG
Ozymandias: NG (?)
Comedian: CE
Dr. Manhattan: N

Is killing half of new york an evil act, even if it does lift the world to utopia?

Even if it is, is it enough to make Ozy non-good?

kerberos

2007-04-14, 06:41 AM

Even if it is, is it enough to make Ozy non-good?
Ehm, you're aware we're talking about something that would be the greatest massacre in human history by more than an order of magnitude, it's not shop lifting, of cause it's enough to make him non-good. Also it wasn't his only arguably evil act; he committed several murder on the way as well. Of cause you could argue that he the end result justified it, but D&D alignment doesn't recognize that the ends justify the means. That is a rather bizarre view of cause, but if we're using D&D alignment then presumably we're using D&D alignment, and by that standard he's neutral at best.

Mummy king

2007-04-14, 09:37 AM

Ehm, you're aware we're talking about something that would be the greatest massacre in human history by more than an order of magnitude, it's not shop lifting, of cause it's enough to make him non-good. Also it wasn't his only arguably evil act; he committed several murder on the way as well. Of cause you could argue that he the end result justified it, but D&D alignment doesn't recognize that the ends justify the means. That is a rather bizarre view of cause, but if we're using D&D alignment then presumably we're using D&D alignment, and by that standard he's neutral at best.
I reckon he's ? neutral. Balancing evil acts with good intentions, like a dread necromancer.

And killing blake wouldn't really be evil, if he was indeed chaotic evil.

Screwy D&D alignment system

Mewtarthio

2007-04-14, 11:31 AM

Batman: Chaotic Good, at best

Any reasoning?

Iron Man: Lawful Good (You really think Iron Man is evil?? Did I miss something?)

I wouldn't call him "Evil," but I'd hesitate to use "Good" following the Civil War. Lawful Neutral.

kerberos

2007-04-14, 12:00 PM

I reckon he's ? neutral. Balancing evil acts with good intentions, like a dread necromancer.
I'd go with neutral too; though evil would be a possibility too. Of cause you could also reasonably argue for good, but not from a D&D perspective.

And killing blake wouldn't really be evil, if he was indeed chaotic evil.
But he didn't kill him because he was evil; everything we know tells us that he would have done the same if Blake has been a saint, in order to serve the greater good. So since Blake evil wasn't a factor I don't think it can be used as an excuse. Also he inflicted a number of non-evil persons with cancer.

Screwy D&D alignment system
Quite

I wouldn't call him [Iron Man] "Evil," but I'd hesitate to use "Good" following the Civil War. Lawful Neutral.
I think the problem is that the portrayal of Iron Man and his motives were wildly inconsistent across the various comics. In the main Civil war and in Frontline I'd go with Neutral, in the Iron man Comic he's IMO good and in Amazing Spider-Man he's arguably evil.

UglyPanda

2007-04-14, 03:23 PM

The odd thing about his portrayal in "Amazing Spider-Man" is that Tony Stark was always there. Tony Stark is in almost every issue involving the New Avengers since Spidey joined the New Avengers, especially since he moved into Stark Tower. It kinda seems like Stark trying to win over Spidey two years in advance. The best way to put it is what Falcon said in New Avengers "Tony Stark is a sellout."

kpenguin

2007-04-14, 03:36 PM

Nevrmore

2007-04-14, 05:50 PM

Any reasoning?
Because he generally uses overwhelming fear to paralyze his enemies and he has gone overboard with himself more than once.

Mewtarthio

2007-04-14, 08:56 PM

Because he generally uses overwhelming fear to paralyze his enemies and he has gone overboard with himself more than once.

Intimidation does not fall into any alignment. It's just a tactic. As for "going overboard," well, he's only human, and everyone goes overboard occasionally.

Sephiroth

2007-04-14, 09:13 PM

i do have a powerful qusetion get readly

define good and evil define peace and chaos also define hero and villian anyway on topic
cloud LN
tifi(if i spell her name wrong plz tell me via PM)NG
areia(ditto to tifi)LG
barrent(ditto) LN
cid CN
vinent(ditto)LE
cath sid(ditto) errrrrr i mosly think LN and CN
yuffie(ditto) NE
and red xIII(i think) LN
if there any other charator plz tell me btw they have a comic like now i saw it now i can't find it

Shadow of the Sun

2007-04-14, 09:44 PM

This is comic books, not video games. The heroes are generally the ones that save people, the villains are generally the ones that make people need to be saved. We are using the DnD alignment system which is fairly easy to pick up if you have played. It is horribly vague, but still works better than it could.

ZombieEl

2007-04-14, 10:46 PM

Ehm, no. Not everyone the Punisher kills is a murderer, for crying out loud, at one point he blew up a boat full of stockholders, because the firm was engaged in crimes (don't remember the specifics) and one of the stockholders on the boat said they didn't care, I efven think they had the wives along. The Punisher is, by any reasonable standard, evil.

Punisher max isn't the punisher.

Lemur

2007-04-14, 11:03 PM

Is killing half of new york an evil act, even if it does lift the world to utopia?

Yes, although I don't keep very good track of superhero type comics to understand the context here. I mean, if the half of New York in question were all evil to start with, and were mind controlled, and were threatening the other half of New York's well being, then it wouldn't. Ordinary circumstances though, yeah, it's evil.

Also, in reference to the original post, Deadpool is definitely chaotic neutral.

Dhavaer

2007-04-14, 11:36 PM

Yes, although I don't keep very good track of superhero type comics to understand the context here.

Spoilers for Watchmen.
Ozymandias teleported a genetically engineered, psychic lifeform into the centre of New York, killing half the population, in order to convince people the world was threatened by extra-terrestrial lifeforms and prevent WW3.

Lemur

2007-04-15, 12:31 AM

Spoilers for Watchmen.
Ozymandias teleported a genetically engineered, psychic lifeform into the centre of New York, killing half the population, in order to convince people the world was threatened by extra-terrestrial lifeforms and prevent WW3.

Hmm, that is a grey area. By D&D alignment, it's still evil. However, it's worth pointing out that evil actions don't always have bad consequences (Gollum biting Frodo's finger off comes to mind). A lot of antiheroes are based on doing evil actions that have good results.

Nevrmore

2007-04-15, 03:53 AM

Intimidation does not fall into any alignment. It's just a tactic. As for "going overboard," well, he's only human, and everyone goes overboard occasionally.
Not to Batman extents.

kpenguin

2007-04-15, 04:40 AM

Not to Batman extents.

So having a lot of ranks in Intimidate means Chaotic? Man, my Paladin of Tyranny is so not workable.

Nevrmore

2007-04-15, 05:13 AM

So having a lot of ranks in Intimidate means Chaotic? Man, my Paladin of Tyranny is so not workable.
I mean the extent he goes overboard.

And yes, I do happen to think that intimidating someone enough to cause them paralyzing panic is a mean thing to do.

Mewtarthio

2007-04-15, 11:38 AM

And yes, I do happen to think that intimidating someone enough to cause them paralyzing panic is a mean thing to do.

Lawful doesn't mean "nice." You can do "mean" things and still be obsessed with Order. It's just another tactic. Maybe I could understand you debating the morality of it, but I don't see how it could be outright Chaotic.

Lizard Lord

2007-04-15, 12:19 PM

As I've said before, I'd now put Stark as Lawful Neutral, formerly Lawful or Neutral Good with Evil tendencies. Cap I'd now put at Lawful Good for being such a paladin and Red Skull would go into LE for the meticulous planning part. I still stand by my judgement that Punisher and Batman are both lawful and that Batman leans more towards Lawful Good than Neutral Good or Lawful Neutral.

I forget if this was already mentioned and I didn't really find it when I looked over, but I thought good with evil tendencies was just neutral. Now if you want to say neutral with good tendencies, that would be fine.

kpenguin

2007-04-15, 04:05 PM

Whoops, that was a mistype. What I meant was: Lawful Neutral with Evil tendencies, formerly Lawful or Neutral Good.

ZombieEl

2007-04-15, 09:59 PM

Ironman had a bunch of people hurt or killed for no reason, chaotic evil right there.

Raxtenko

2007-04-15, 10:30 PM

Go read Civil War again, I mean actually read it. The reason was to preserve 'Superheroes' and add a little responsibility and accountability for heroes.

GuesssWho

2007-04-15, 10:44 PM

I only saw the movie, but I thought V was CG.
Xavier is LG, Mystique is CN, Doc Ock is LE, Joker is CE, Magneto is NE.
At least that's as close as I can get, in a world of Bitter Evil and True Lawful . . .

Beleriphon

2007-04-16, 12:10 AM

Go read Civil War again, I mean actually read it. The reason was to preserve 'Superheroes' and add a little responsibility and accountability for heroes.

And being a total jerkwad! You can't forget the important being a jerkwad element for Tony.

I only saw the movie, but I thought V was CG.
Xavier is LG, Mystique is CN, Doc Ock is LE, Joker is CE, Magneto is NE.
At least that's as close as I can get, in a world of Bitter Evil and True Lawful . . .

Yeah. V is very much a true anarchist in that he honestly feels that if people left to their own devices will ultimately behave, so they don't need a government at all. He actually comments that his goal it to first make the "land of do as you please", but eventual it will be come the "land of do as you should". So he's basically willing to tear down any concept of social order, let people do as the want (think Mad Max here), in the hope that they will behave themselves eventually. I'm placing V firmly in the CN department. He may lean towards noble goals, but those are really a fringe benefit of his revenge plot.

kpenguin

2007-04-16, 12:15 AM

Yeah. V is very much a true anarchist in that he honestly feels that if people left to their own devices will ultimately behave, so they don't need a government at all. He actually comments that his goal it to first make the "land of do as you please", but eventual it will be come the "land of do as you should". So he's basically willing to tear down any concept of social order, let people do as the want (think Mad Max here), in the hope that they will behave themselves eventually. I'm placing V firmly in the CN department. He may lean towards noble goals, but those are really a fringe benefit of his revenge plot.

Ah, but a true Chaotic Neutral doesn't go on campaigns of anarchy. Chaotic people take down order to either help people (good) or hurt people (evil). I'd say V is Chaotic Neutral with Chaotic Good tendencies.

GuesssWho

2007-04-16, 02:19 AM

Exactly so.

sun_tzu

2007-04-16, 04:05 AM

The way I see it, Batman's pretty firmly LG.
He has a set of rules of conduct he never deviates from, no matter how much he wants to at time - so Lawful.
He puts everything he has - time, effort, money, and risking his own life - into helping others. And not just as Batman - as Bruce Wayne, he donates to charity, drops by the local orphanage to make sure the kids are treated well, convinces a fellow businessman to fund a community center...So, definitely Good. That he relies on fear to defeat the criminal elements does not make him neutral - not anymore than policemen using violence against criminals when needed.

Nevrmore

2007-04-16, 04:37 AM

GRAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH

I hate the V in the movie. The V in the comic book is CN, and the great reason for that is because you can't tell if he's good or if he's evil. It's like half of him actually has the well-being of the country in mind, but the other half is simply an insane terrorist getting revenge on the people that he thinks wronged him in terrible ways - He punched a hole in a dude's chest, I believe.

The V in the movie was undoubtedly good, and even if they tried their best to hint at his more crazed side it did not come off as nearly as well as the comic. Don't even throw that whole "But he locked Eevey up in a fake torture chamber for months!" crap at me, because that was just retarded.

Alex Kidd

2007-04-16, 10:40 AM

For shame

Leonardo - LG
Raphael - CG leaning CN
Michaelangelo - CG
Donatello - NG Heavy on the neutral

Course I'm rusty going off cartoons from when I was a kid so I might be a little off, but they are comic characters first.

idioscosmos

2007-04-16, 07:40 PM

1.) Lawful Good - Captian America = Pretty much THE poster boy for "Uphold the law for the good of the people".

2.) Neutral Good - Spider Man = "Do the right thing"

3.) Chaotic Good - Wolverine = Sides with the weak over the strong, good of the many, blah, blah even if he doesn't admit it. Determines "Good" and "Bad" by his own moral compass. The concept of "Law" doesn't really enter into it.

4.) Lawful Neutral - Batman (from what I've read. Never really liked the guy)

5.) True Neutral - The Watcher (DUDE! How could you guys miss this one!)

6.) Chaotic Neutral - Hulk. And by "Hulk" I mean Green Hulk, not Grey (or "Cool Hulk") Hulk.

7.) Lawful Evil - Iron Man Uses the law to further his ends regardless of the intent of the law.

8.) Neutral Evil - Grey Hulk

9.) Chaotic Evil - Joker, Riddler, or just about any of the "Batman" villians.

So...someone tell me. Where does Dr Strange fit? Thor (Chaotic good doesn't feel right for someone so bound by his duty to Asgard. And yes, he's dead. I know.)? Silver Surfer?

GuesssWho

2007-04-16, 07:50 PM

Thor would be NG, then . . . and Dr. Strange is probably CG, because magic is innately chaotic.

Tiberian

2007-04-16, 09:36 PM

Silver Surfer is CG: Cosmic Good, which is really just NG at a really, really high level.

GuesssWho

2007-04-16, 09:36 PM

LOL
If you say so.

Raxtenko

2007-04-17, 12:16 AM

And being a total jerkwad! You can't forget the important being a jerkwad element for Tony.

Of course, of course. I forgot about his jerkiness, it's been such an important part of Iron Man for like 20 years now. Shame on me.

hanzo66

2007-05-11, 12:03 PM

Deadpool is straight up Chaotic Neutral with Good tendencies. He's more of an insane mercernary who gets stuck doing some good things.

Comics... Any comics? I was sort of thinking of some Manga characters' alignments...

GuesssWho

2007-05-11, 05:22 PM

In indie comics, JtHM is CEG: Chaotic Evil Good.
He kills people remorselessly, but most of them are jerks. And he's funny.

Chaos Perfected

2007-05-16, 04:57 PM

I'm not sure if any super hero not help up by the government would count as lawful...

I mean, vigilantism is a crime.

kpenguin

2007-05-16, 06:09 PM

As said before, the term "Lawful" does not inherently mean adherence to the law.

Knight_Of_Twilight

2007-05-16, 07:15 PM

Of course, of course. I forgot about his jerkiness, it's been such an important part of Iron Man for like 20 years now. Shame on me.

Gotta love what Marvel's done with the characters.

Gavin Sage

2007-05-16, 07:39 PM

1.) Lawful Good - Captian America = Pretty much THE poster boy for "Uphold the law for the good of the people".

While for Ultimate Cap this is certainly true. It isn't true for 616 Cap at all since his revival in Avengers #4. Cap has on numerous occaisons clashed with the government, given up the mantle twice, and in fact his character has long been developed against the immediate sterotype that his name and outfit brings. He is loyal only to the dream, not the law. He's neutral good at least with chaotic leanings at times.

Anyways some others:
Iron Man- LG (grow up folks)
Spidey- NG
Wolverine- CG
Charles Xavier- CG (he's not LG, mutants haven't had that luxury)
Hawkeye- CG
Magneto- LN (he's portrayed as a hero a lot, plus lacks real malice)
Punisher- CN
Hulk- CN
Doc Doom- LE
Red Skull- LE, LE, LE

Batman- LG (because Wizards says he is *grumble*)
Superman- NG (simply because of Luthor's presidency, and he's a reporter)
Supergirl- CG
Wonder Woman- LG
Green Arrow- CG
Green Lantern- Hal LG, Kyle NG, Guy CG, Mogo TN
The Spectre- LG :D
Lobo- CN
Joker- CE, CE, CE

Non-Overlord Villians- NE to CE

GuesssWho

2007-05-18, 08:41 PM

Joker is True Chaotic!!!
And so is TwoFace. I mean, honestly-TwoFace actually does good half the time, just because his coin comes up heads.

Wardog

2007-05-28, 11:24 AM

Ozymandias: IMO, NE at best, probably CE.

My reasoning (spoiler for those who haven't read to the end of Watchmen):

1. He frikkin wiped out most of the population of New York!

Okay, so he thought he was making the world a better place. Big deal. So did Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Darth Vader, etc.

Killing almost all of a major city is Evil, even if you think are trying to avert nuclear war by making people think the earth is about to be attacked by aliens.

And in order to get his scheme to work, he murdered at least one of his former comrades when he was becoming suspicious.

In order to maintain the illusion that that/those deaths were the work of anti-superhero vigilantes, he arranged an assassination attempt on himself (which resulted in the death of his secretary before he himself killed the assassin).

He murdered the film/special effects crew, artists, etc who had been working on his "monster", so they couldn't reveal the truth; and he murdered friends who had been knowingly working on the project (not sure why, probably just in case the leaked his secret).

Murdering an entier city is extremely Evil.
Betraying (and murdering) friends, employees, etc is Evil, with a large side-order of Chaotic.

The fact that he thinks he is good doesn't change that.

Shadow of the Sun

2007-05-28, 12:42 PM

Thinking that is losing the point of Watchmen...you aren't supposed to tack a simple alignment onto a Watchmen character, they are far too complicated.

Koga

2007-05-28, 04:50 PM

The Koga love love loves Deadpool, and his pal Mike loves The Punisher.

We can safely say both are chaotic.

The Punisher on moral grounds; because he distrusts the government, has a strong desire to eradicate hardened criminals his way and screw the system, and is very impulsive.

Deadpool on more objective attitude; he's completely random and goofy, breaking the 4th wall, and self-acknowledging his insanity on levels from casual to "coke ridden viagra induced" level.

On the good and evil axis it gets more complicated. Because Punisher deffinitely cares more about stopping evil then Deadpool. But Punisher is also alot more cold then Deadpool. Punisher is liable to kill an ally simply because they were a drug smuggler, where as Deadpool wound't. Deadpool's moral apathy doesn't make him good, but it makes him more trusting. And trust equates to good in D&D as well as it should.

Punisher is what a chaotic good paladin would be.
Deadpool is what a chaotic neutral character should be but most D&D players are failures in everything they do lol!

Also Green Arrow is not chaotic good. He's chaotic stupid. (Neutral if you want to be nice. The Koga would say leaning evil...)

He's had the chance to kill Brick and not taken it. Instead just beating him to prove "This is my town". Considering all the lives and suffering Brick has put the public and him through, to just "beat him" is utterly arrogant and idiotic.

Green Arrow is a God-hating communist-polygamist who seems to getoff on annoying other superheroes with his political rants. The Koga's suprised he doesn't put little pamphlets on the end of his trick arrows about democratic-socialisms...

Deadpool would masscare him, not so much on moral grounds but because Deadpool's far too chaotic to styfel his impulses and realizes Green Arrow's just as much a putz as Cable. And unlike Cable isn't his friend.

The Punisher would shoot Green Arrow on moral grounds, because the moment Green Arrow gave his two cents on drug legislation, The Punisher would be convinced Green Arrow was involved with The Kingpin, and in reality it wouldn't be far from the truth. Green Arrow has no qualms about making deals with the likes of Kingpin.

StudlyDuck

2007-05-29, 02:34 AM

Concerning Watchmen, I would argue that Ozymandius was pretty solidly NE. He had a definite reason for what he did, in an "the ends justify the means," sort of way, rather than the "I just wanted to," logic that is a trademark of CE. It definitely wasn't a lawful act, by any stretch of the imagination, but it did really on the (unknowing) cooperation of governments worldwide, which strikes me as neutral on the law-chaos axis. The real question is where he fits on the good-evil axis. It was a horrendously evil act, with the best of intentions. I'd call it NE, but not terribly far removed from TN.

kpenguin

2007-05-29, 03:19 AM

Why I think that the Punisher is Lawful (Neutral) rather than Chaotic (Neutral):

Based on the description of Chaos by the PHB, a chaotic neutral character would be unpredictable. Frank is anything but. He's far too predictable in his actions. They are all based on a single objective. A chaotic neutral character would have a huge amount of constantly changing goals. Predictability and holding oneself to a set objective is a quality of a Lawful character.

"Crime is bad. Kill criminals." is the basic moral of the Punisher's actions. A chaotic neutral character's basic moral is "Do what you you feel like". Frank doesn't kill because he feels like it. He kills because he thinks it is for the greater good. He kills because it is pould be far more likely art of a personal code. A chaotic neutral character would kill because it seemed right on an individual basis and because his gut told him to do it.

The main argument for Frank being nonlawful is because he doesn't respect the law. The truth is, the word "Lawful" is a bit of a misnomer. A Lawful character with a capital "L" is a character who is concerned more with order than actual laws. This type of person will bend or even break laws to preserve order. The reason that Lawful characters tend to obey laws is because laws in general are constructed to maintain order. Frank, I think, cares more about order than morals. If he did not care about either, he would not be obsessed about killing criminals and ending corruption. He wto kill people indiscriminately and more based on individual relationship.

Well that's my two bits. Feel free to disagree. I'm not a particularly articulate person and am sure that are quite a few mistakes and fallacies to point out.