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View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next Strategist - The Intelligent Rogue



xyianth
2015-03-28, 12:12 AM
This class was born from the feedback given to an earlier concept here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?405631-Phantom-Blade-a-tactical-rogue-archetype). I decided to split it off from that class and flesh it out as its own class. As always, comments and criticism are equally welcome.

Strategist
Some rogues sharpen their minds in addition to their blades. Strategist Rogues hone their ability to analyze a given situation and apply exactly the right tactics to bring about victory.


Tactical Strike
At 3rd level, you gain the ability to trade sneak attack dice for special effects when making a sneak attack. You learn 1 tactical strike at 3rd level. You learn an additional tactical strike at 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, and 18th levels in this class. Any time you gain a level in this class, you can swap a known tactical strike for any other tactical strike of your choice. To use a tactical strike, you must first hit a creature with a sneak attack. You then choose which strike to use and how many sneak attack dice you will trade for the strike's effect. If your attack is a critical hit, you trade any sneak attack dice first then double any remaining damage dice due to the critical hit. (credit to Giant2005 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19033584&postcount=4) for this clarification) You can apply the effects of more than one tactical strike with a single sneak attack, but you are limited by your sneak attack dice. All save DCs for these strikes are equal to 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Intelligence modifier.

Size up your Opponent
At 9th level, your careful study of countless creatures has made you an expert in analyzing your opponents. As a bonus action on your turn, you can use this ability to learn which ability score is the lowest on a single creature. This does not necessarily reveal the creature's lowest save since it does not take proficiencies into account. In addition, you have advantage on all Intelligence checks made to identify creatures.

Spot the Opportunity
At 13th level, you have mastered the art of capitalizing on your enemies' mistakes. Whenever a creature would provoke an opportunity attack from one of your allies, you may use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature.

Critical Strike
At 17th level, you can choose to take a -10 penalty on attack when making an attack roll. If you hit, the hit is automatically a critical hit. You can choose to use this ability after making your attack roll, but before the DM has determined if it results in a hit.


Tactical Strikes
Tactical strikes are special maneuvers that trade sneak attack dice for special effects. Strategist Rogues learn 1 tactical strike at 3rd level. They learn an additional tactical strike at 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, and 18th levels in this class. Any time they gain a level in this class, they can swap a known tactical strike for any other tactical strike of your choice. You use your Intelligence to determine the save DC of these abilities.


Forceful Blow
The target must make a Dexterity save or be knocked prone. You trade 1d6 sneak attack dice for this effect. For each additional 1d6 sneak attack dice you sacrifice, the creature is pushed 5' on a failed save.

Slice the Hamstring
The target must make a Dexterity save or have its movement speed reduced by 10' for 1 round. You trade 1d6 sneak attack dice for this effect. For each additional 1d6 sneak attack dice you sacrifice, the effect lasts an additional round on a failed save.

Vicious Wound
The target suffers a deep wound that bleeds over time. The target takes 1 damage from blood loss at the start of each of its turns. You trade 1d6 sneak attack dice for this effect. For each additional 1d6 sneak attack dice you sacrifice, the creature bleeds for an additional 1 damage at the start of each of its turns. If the target of this strike is already bleeding, the bleeding damage stacks with each use of this strike. The target can stop the bleeding by making a medicine check against your save DC as an action during their turn. The medicine check can also be performed by another creature within 5' of the target as an action. The bleeding automatically stops if the target receives any magical healing.

Blow to the Windpipe
The target must make a Constitution save or be unable to speak for 1 round. You trade 2d6 sneak attack dice for this effect. For each additional 2d6 sneak attack dice you sacrifice, the effect lasts an additional round on a failed save. (credit to MrStabby (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19008391&postcount=8) for this suggestion)

Exhausting Strike
The target must make a Constitution save or gain an exhaustion level for 1 round. You trade 2d6 sneak atack dice for this effect. For each additional 2d6 sneak attack dice you sacrifice, the effect lasts an additional round on a failed save.

Deafening Blow
The target must make a Constitution save or be deafened for 1 round. You trade 2d6 sneak attack dice for this effect. For each additional 2d6 sneak attack dice you sacrifice, the effect lasts an additional round on a failed save.

Blinding Strike
The target must make a Constitution save or be blinded for 1 round. You trade 3d6 sneak attack dice for this effect. For each additional 3d6 sneak attack dice you sacrifice, the effect lasts an additional round on a failed save. Any creature that makes their save against this effect is immune to this tactical strike for 24 hours. (credit to Giant2005 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19034909&postcount=6) for this suggestion)

Pinned Down
The target must make a Strength save or be restrained for 1 round. You trade 3d6 sneak attack dice for this effect. For each additional 3d6 sneak attack dice you sacrifice, the effect lasts an additional round on a failed save. Any creature that makes their save against this effect is immune to this tactical strike for 24 hours. (credit to Giant2005 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19034909&postcount=6) for this suggestion)

Disorienting Blow
The target must make a Charisma save or be incapacitated for 1 round. You trade 5d6 sneak attack dice for this effect. For each additional 5d6 sneak attack dice you sacrifice, the effect lasts an additional round on a failed save. Any creature that makes their save against this effect is immune to this tactical strike for 24 hours. (credit to Giant2005 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19034909&postcount=6) for this suggestion)

Menacing Assault
The target must make a Wisdom save or be frightened of you for 1 round. You trade 5d6 sneak attack dice for this effect. For each additional 5d6 sneak attack dice you sacrifice, the effect lasts an additional round on a failed save. Any creature that makes their save against this effect is immune to this tactical strike for 24 hours. (credit to Giant2005 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19034909&postcount=6) for this suggestion)

Befuddling Assault
The target must make an Intelligence save or be confused (see the confusion spell) for 1 round. You trade 7d6 sneak attack dice for this effect. Any creature that makes their save against this effect is immune to this tactical strike for 24 hours. (credit to Giant2005 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19034909&postcount=6) for this suggestion)

Sever the Spine
The target must make a Constitution save or be rendered paralyzed for 1 round. You trade 9d6 sneak attack dice for this effect. Any creature that makes their save against this effect is immune to this tactical strike for 24 hours. (credit to Giant2005 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19034909&postcount=6) for this suggestion)

MrStabby
2015-03-29, 12:45 PM
I have to say I think this is now looking pretty good.

For a subclass you have a good amount of interesting content and whilst you get a lot of versatility it is within a narrow enough range that you are not stepping on other peoples toes.

Now I haven't played a lot at high level so I don't really know how good critical strike is. Roll a 20 and you crit anyway. Roll a 19 and are you not likely to miss high level things if it is only equivalent to a 9? 19 (rolled number) +4 (proficiency) +5 (dex (or str if using)) -10 (crippling strike)=18 which still seems it would miss a lot of things so it maybe doesn't even double your crit range (although given that you will be trying to get advantage whenever possible crits are a pretty good mechanic. Also given that more of yur damage (as a %) come from dice this is pretty strong. I am guessing that this is a bit of a situational ability that goes from being very useful (if you would have hit on a 6+) to being utterly useless. I imagine this would really depend on the campaign.

Spot the opportunity seems good powerwise (on average) but does kind of shoehorn the rogue into ranged weapons. If you are using close combat weapons and an enemy is within 5ft of you and moves out of range of one of your team mates it is very likely that they have just moved away from you anyway triggering an AoO.

On the other hand, if you are using a ranged weapon then getting an extra sneak attack everytime someone moves on the battlefield is huge. I still don't imagine you are getting many of these but it does effectively pin everyone on the other side in place once you have closed with them.

xyianth
2015-03-29, 04:00 PM
I have to say I think this is now looking pretty good.

For a subclass you have a good amount of interesting content and whilst you get a lot of versatility it is within a narrow enough range that you are not stepping on other peoples toes.

Now I haven't played a lot at high level so I don't really know how good critical strike is. Roll a 20 and you crit anyway. Roll a 19 and are you not likely to miss high level things if it is only equivalent to a 9? 19 (rolled number) +4 (proficiency) +5 (dex (or str if using)) -10 (crippling strike)=18 which still seems it would miss a lot of things so it maybe doesn't even double your crit range (although given that you will be trying to get advantage whenever possible crits are a pretty good mechanic. Also given that more of yur damage (as a %) come from dice this is pretty strong. I am guessing that this is a bit of a situational ability that goes from being very useful (if you would have hit on a 6+) to being utterly useless. I imagine this would really depend on the campaign.

Spot the opportunity seems good powerwise (on average) but does kind of shoehorn the rogue into ranged weapons. If you are using close combat weapons and an enemy is within 5ft of you and moves out of range of one of your team mates it is very likely that they have just moved away from you anyway triggering an AoO.

On the other hand, if you are using a ranged weapon then getting an extra sneak attack everytime someone moves on the battlefield is huge. I still don't imagine you are getting many of these but it does effectively pin everyone on the other side in place once you have closed with them.

As far as critical strike goes, there are some basic assumptions behind its design. If your campaign is filled with nothing but high AC opponents, this ability will seem fairly lackluster. The hope is that there is a mix of opponents, some with high AC (18+) and some with lower AC. (12-16) Since you get the ability at 17th, your proficiency bonus is +6. If your dexterity is +5, this results in +11 to hit with a mundane weapon. Against high AC foes: you can crit on a 17-20; against lower AC foes: you can crit on a 11-20. If you look at the expected AC chart when designing monsters for CR 17+, the expected AC of 19 yields a crit range of 18-20. The major differences between this ability and the champion ability is that you choose when to use it and crits are more useful to a sneak attacker. The other assumption I made is that if your campaign uses magic items, the average AC will increase to match. This ability would be overpowering if the average AC you faced was 18, but you had a +3 weapon. Since magic items are optional, (and imho poorly designed) I think this is an ok assumption to make.

Spot the opportunity does give more usefulness to ranged rogues, but even melee rogues get some use out of it. There are situations where enemies move away from an ally and towards you. Since opportunity attacks only get provoked when an enemy leaves your threat range (certain feats excepted) this ability would allow you to make an OA against such an opponent, even though you normally would not be able to. Unfortunately, I don't know how I would be able to equalize the benefit for melee rogues without granting bonus movement, which would make this subclass the most mobile class in the game. (thereby stepping on monk/barbarian a bit) If you have any ideas that might make the ability more useful for melee rogues, I'd love to hear them.

<snark>I guess you could argue that intelligent rogues decide to leave melee combat to the fighters and stay at range to avoid harm.</snark> :smallamused:

Giant2005
2015-03-29, 08:09 PM
I do like this a lot although I do have some concerns (Which I mentioned in the other thread) for the more powerful conditions being spammable.
This post isn't about that though, my question here is more regarding the mechanics of how it is intended to work and possibly requesting a bit of clarification within the class description itself.
How exactly does the mechanic of exchanging sneak dice interract with critical hits? As best I can tell there are three possibilities:
1. A critical hit doubles the sneak dice prior to exchanging any for a tactical strike (Effectively doubling the crit dice you can exchange for the strike or leave for damage).
2. A critical hit doubles the sneak dice after exchanging for a tactical strike (Essentially doubling the cost of the strike - lowering the sneak dice by 3D6 would lower your damage by 6D6).
3. A critical hit doubles damage prior to exchanging for a tactical strike but does not count as sneak damage (10D6 sneak attack doubles to 20D6 but only 10D6 of it can be exchanged for tactical strikes).

xyianth
2015-03-30, 01:23 AM
I do like this a lot although I do have some concerns (Which I mentioned in the other thread) for the more powerful conditions being spammable.
This post isn't about that though, my question here is more regarding the mechanics of how it is intended to work and possibly requesting a bit of clarification within the class description itself.
How exactly does the mechanic of exchanging sneak dice interract with critical hits? As best I can tell there are three possibilities:
1. A critical hit doubles the sneak dice prior to exchanging any for a tactical strike (Effectively doubling the crit dice you can exchange for the strike or leave for damage).
2. A critical hit doubles the sneak dice after exchanging for a tactical strike (Essentially doubling the cost of the strike - lowering the sneak dice by 3D6 would lower your damage by 6D6).
3. A critical hit doubles damage prior to exchanging for a tactical strike but does not count as sneak damage (10D6 sneak attack doubles to 20D6 but only 10D6 of it can be exchanged for tactical strikes).

Well, I had intended it to work like the 2nd case you mentioned. I can definitely see the other interpretations now that you have mentioned them. I'll add a note to how tactical strikes and critical strikes work together in the OP and give you credit. I would not allow the 1st case as that would allow fairly long durations on some things. I could see someone allowing the 3rd case, but that seems like a needlessly complex rule. I feel like the subclass is powerful enough that going with the 2nd case won't be that bad.

Regarding the limit on tactical strikes, how would you feel about limiting each tactical strike to being used Int mod/long rest? (minimum 1) Since you gain 6 different strikes over 20 levels, you could eventually get 30 uses per day, 5 from each one. It would be a little more restrictive at the early levels though, especially when you consider that Intelligence is not the attack stat, so it is unlikely to be maxed unless you roll well for stats. I personally think they are fine without limits, but I understand that some people run campaigns where players rest much less frequently than they tend to do in my campaigns. The only other idea I can come up with is to grant 24 hour immunity to a specific tactical strike after you use it on a creature. This would limit you to 1 use of each known tactical strike per creature, but still fundamentally let you use the strike at-will.

Giant2005
2015-03-30, 04:46 AM
The only other idea I can come up with is to grant 24 hour immunity to a specific tactical strike after you use it on a creature. This would limit you to 1 use of each known tactical strike per creature, but still fundamentally let you use the strike at-will.

I like this but instead of the creature gaining immunity upon use, the creature gains immunity on a successful save.
It shouldn't apply to all of them though - only the most powerful effects. There is nothing wrong with the weaker ones being spammable and it is important that the Rogue still has those options if something was lucky enough to gain immunity to everything else.

xyianth
2015-03-30, 12:35 PM
I like this but instead of the creature gaining immunity upon use, the creature gains immunity on a successful save.
It shouldn't apply to all of them though - only the most powerful effects. There is nothing wrong with the weaker ones being spammable and it is important that the Rogue still has those options if something was lucky enough to gain immunity to everything else.

I've added the immunity limit to every tactical strike that costs 3d6 or more sneak attack dice. Since this represents more than half of them, I would like to create at least two more weaker tactical strikes that can be used without limit. That way, if a PC wanted to, they could select 6 strikes that have no restrictions by sticking to the weaker options. Anyone have any ideas as to what those could be? I'm thinking that the 1d6 strike could leave behind a bleeding wound, dealing 2 damage per turn until it is stopped with healing or a medicine check. And the 2d6 strike could deafen?

Giant2005
2015-03-31, 07:17 AM
I've added the immunity limit to every tactical strike that costs 3d6 or more sneak attack dice. Since this represents more than half of them, I would like to create at least two more weaker tactical strikes that can be used without limit. That way, if a PC wanted to, they could select 6 strikes that have no restrictions by sticking to the weaker options. Anyone have any ideas as to what those could be? I'm thinking that the 1d6 strike could leave behind a bleeding wound, dealing 2 damage per turn until it is stopped with healing or a medicine check. And the 2d6 strike could deafen?

You should probably increase the cost of the bleed or reduce the bleed damage to 1 per dice sacrificed. At 2 damage per turn, it would only take two turns to make the damage profitable although I guess that isn't too balance from a balance perspective but it does seem like the trade is far more beneficial than the 1D6 would have ever been (Although I suspect the real cost is the inability to not use a different Tactical Strike while using the bleed).
More important than any of that babble though is that Vicious Wound really needs edited as it is far more powerful than I suspect you ever intended it to be. Without specifying who's turn the damage is applied on the ability sounds like it procs on everyone's turn which would be OP as hell (There are 12 people in this fight, so I sacrifice 1D6 of sneak damage to inflict 2 damage per turn which would be 24 damage per round - definitely a worthy trade). Just specify "The start of the victim's turn" or whatever terminology the game usually uses for such things and it will be alright.

xyianth
2015-03-31, 09:27 AM
You should probably increase the cost of the bleed or reduce the bleed damage to 1 per dice sacrificed. At 2 damage per turn, it would only take two turns to make the damage profitable although I guess that isn't too balance from a balance perspective but it does seem like the trade is far more beneficial than the 1D6 would have ever been (Although I suspect the real cost is the inability to not use a different Tactical Strike while using the bleed).
More important than any of that babble though is that Vicious Wound really needs edited as it is far more powerful than I suspect you ever intended it to be. Without specifying who's turn the damage is applied on the ability sounds like it procs on everyone's turn which would be OP as hell (There are 12 people in this fight, so I sacrifice 1D6 of sneak damage to inflict 2 damage per turn which would be 24 damage per round - definitely a worthy trade). Just specify "The start of the victim's turn" or whatever terminology the game usually uses for such things and it will be alright.

Thanks for the catch, I definitely meant the start of the victim turns. :smalleek: I updated the language to (hopefully) correct it. I also lowered the damage to limit the potency as I would like to keep it at the 1d6 cost.