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Temennigru
2015-03-30, 11:58 PM
I was looking into draconic writing to bring something extra into the campaign, but I noticed the number 0 was not defined in the official draconic romanization chart (draconomicon: chromatic dragons, page 24). They just show A-Z, 1-9, so I'm guessing they forgot 0.

How would one represent 0 in draconic? Did they ever publish an errata?

Beta Centauri
2015-03-31, 12:09 AM
I was looking into draconic writing to bring something extra into the campaign, but I noticed the number 0 was not defined in the official draconic romanization chart (draconomicon: chromatic dragons, page 24). They just show A-Z, 1-9, so I'm guessing they forgot 0.

How would one represent 0 in draconic? Did they ever publish an errata? Maybe dragons don't have a concept of zero. It isn't entirely intuitive and to a species focused on possession the concept of nothing might seem too horrible to contemplate, let alone give a simple name to.

Really though, if it's not in that book you should feel free to make it up. Avoiding using it in your game might be an interesting challenge.

Cazero
2015-03-31, 12:55 AM
A stack of 0 objects sounds kinda silly. You would rather say that there is no stack/object, and wouldn't need a symbol for the number 0. The actual uses of 0 outside of mathematics are kinda limited, and you should be able to avoid them easily.

Temennigru
2015-03-31, 01:15 AM
How would I write multiples of 10 then?

goto124
2015-03-31, 01:33 AM
'Two tens' for 20, 'three hundreds' for 300?

Temennigru
2015-03-31, 01:37 AM
'Two tens' for 20, 'three hundreds' for 300?

There is no 10. Only 1-9

Andezzar
2015-03-31, 01:46 AM
So dragons cannot do good maths, so what?

Temennigru
2015-03-31, 02:54 AM
So dragons cannot do good maths, so what?

The language is incomplete. INCOMPLEEEEEEEEEEEETE

TheCountAlucard
2015-03-31, 04:41 AM
Either that, or they use tallies, or really any number of ways to count that don't use zero.

Seriously. We've had zero for so long that we can scarcely imagine a math system without it, but the truth is that zero is something we came up with, and there were people and math and counting before there was zero.

Temennigru
2015-03-31, 04:52 AM
Either that, or they use tallies, or really any number of ways to count that don't use zero.

Seriously. We've had zero for so long that we can scarcely imagine a math system without it, but the truth is that zero is something we came up with, and there were people and math and counting before there was zero.

That is, until people figured out you could count to 10

Lacco
2015-03-31, 04:56 AM
Maybe they don't have a decimal system. We also use sometimes the octal/hexadecimal systems... :smallsmile:

Temennigru
2015-03-31, 05:01 AM
One of the possibilities for 0 is this
http://i1147.photobucket.com/albums/o555/Temen-ni-gru/dr0_zpsvnulwi7h.png

Tysha
2015-03-31, 05:01 AM
I was looking into draconic writing to bring something extra into the campaign, but I noticed the number 0 was not defined in the official draconic romanization chart (draconomicon: chromatic dragons, page 24). They just show A-Z, 1-9, so I'm guessing they forgot 0.

How would one represent 0 in draconic? Did they ever publish an errata?

I don't know about an errata, but this: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/Draconomicon/117680.jpg is on the Wizards site :)

Temennigru
2015-03-31, 05:02 AM
I don't know about an errata, but this: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/Draconomicon/117680.jpg is on the Wizards site :)

Merci beaucoup!

Lord Raziere
2015-03-31, 05:03 AM
That is, until people figured out you could count to 10

You mean the 9-1, the Second one after nine? :smallconfused: What a weird way of counting! Why don't you simply say one nine and a one? or One-Nina-One? I can share my way of counting with you! 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9, 1-9-1, 1-9-2, 1-9-3, 1-9-4, 1-9-5.... :smalltongue:

goto124
2015-03-31, 05:03 AM
Maybe not even that. Just tallies or bones or something.

The 0 in 10 is just a representation of ten. You could easily write X (Roman numeral) or \\\\\\\\\\ (ten tallies) to show ten.

If you need to write 'ten' in the draconic language, go letter by letter. T-E-N!

I like the idea of a language not having a certain number, if only to make the players wonder 'why are we still missing a zero?' :P

Tysha
2015-03-31, 05:04 AM
Merci beaucoup!

You're welcome. First time I've joined a forum just to post a little helpful draconic! :D

Maglubiyet
2015-03-31, 08:06 AM
I don't know about an errata, but this: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/Draconomicon/117680.jpg is on the Wizards site :)

Darn, I was kind of liking the idea of dragons not having a zero because of their psychology.

They could've used a base-9 numbering system. Which, incidentally, counts like:
...8, 9, 11, 12, 13...19, 21, 22

Would've been a great way to trick players translating a draconic script. "It says to push the 35th brick." But in a base-9 system, 35 = 38 in base-10.

Andezzar
2015-03-31, 08:42 AM
Either that, or they use tallies, or really any number of ways to count that don't use zero.

Seriously. We've had zero for so long that we can scarcely imagine a math system without it, but the truth is that zero is something we came up with, and there were people and math and counting before there was zero.Imagining math without a neutral element (whether additive or multiplicative) is not that easy. The erratum debunked that theory, but it could also be that dragons always write null/zero/squat/etc. if they mean the additive neutral element.

Surpriser
2015-03-31, 11:10 AM
As for representation of larger numbers, another way would be multiplying:
10 = "2-5"
100 = "4-5-5" or "2-2-5-5"

Now, I know that there are a lot of problems with that approach - notably, prime numbers and non-uniqueness. But aren't dragons supposed to have a lot of int? Maybe that's why...

And imagine the joy of your players when they try to decipher draconic numbers :smallcool:

EDIT: In fact, simply identifying a number with its prime factorization might be enough for a number system feeling completely alien. And yes, that means that dragons need to memorize a lot of symbols for their digits or resort to cheating via addition.

Lord Torath
2015-03-31, 11:21 AM
Darn, I was kind of liking the idea of dragons not having a zero because of their psychology.

They could've used a base-9 numbering system. Which, incidentally, counts like:
...8, 9, 11, 12, 13...19, 21, 22

Would've been a great way to trick players translating a draconic script. "It says to push the 35th brick." But in a base-9 system, 35 = 38 in base-10.But why would they come up with Base 9? We use base 10 because we have 10 fingers (or at least that's the general understanding). What reason would dragons have for picking 9?

Also, I think you mixed up your conversion. Base-9 38 = Base-10 35, not the reverse.


EDIT: In fact, simply identifying a number with its prime factorization might be enough for a number system feeling completely alien. And yes, that means that dragons need to memorize a lot of symbols for their digits or resort to cheating via addition.So counting from 1 to 10: 1, 2, 3, 2-2, 5, 2-3, 7, 2-2-2, 3-3, 2-5

nedz
2015-03-31, 11:48 AM
How would I write multiples of 10 then?

You could still have 10 even without a 0 — OK you probably still need a symbol, but you could substitute letters.

Consider our calendar: The years 10 AD etc. exist, but there is no year 0, 1 AD follows from 1 BC

Milodiah
2015-03-31, 12:00 PM
If I recall correctly, some ancient cultures ended up with a base-12 counting system because they counted the joints of the fingers rather than the fingers on the hand. Or base-14 if they went for the thumb, too.

It's not that base-10 is the universal system that definitely has to happen. It's that we live in a world that IS base-10, so it kinda strains our brain to imagine something different being possible. We could have just as easily ended up with a base-5 if we decided "only one hand at a time".

Also, agreed. We're so stuck in the Arabic numeral system that it seems difficult to express "10" without "0". But the Romans did it just fine, as mentioned earlier. X.

(Also, if Roman numerals seem unintuitive, try out their calendar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_calendar#Months).)

Surpriser
2015-03-31, 12:12 PM
So counting from 1 to 10: 1, 2, 3, 2-2, 5, 2-3, 7, 2-2-2, 3-3, 2-5

Exactly. To add some more detail:
- The absence of something (i.e. "zero") could be represented by a special pre- or suffix to the missing item(s). So: "I have no treasure" == "Treasure-no", "Six crowns are missing" == "2-3 crowns-no"

- Shamefully, eventually dragons will forget some of those pesky prime numbers. "I own ... What was the name of the number 3 less than 2-2-2-5-5-5 again?" In that case, dragons could simply substitute an addition instead: "Anyway, I own 2-2-3-83-plusone earrings"

- To avoid endless repetitions ("2-2-2-2-2-2-2-..." simply does not sound impressive), there could be a special syllable for exponentiation. "You will pay me 2-"up"-2-2-3-"down"-3 gold pieces or I will devour you!"

That will definitely underline the immense intelligence of dragons if they are capable of doing prime factorizations in their head just like someone else might calculate the sum of two numbers.

Amazing where you can arrive from simply removing a 0...

Milodiah
2015-03-31, 12:15 PM
...now I understand why dragons just have a hoard of stuff.

Imagine trying to audit that massive pile of swag with such an unwieldy counting system.

Surpriser
2015-03-31, 12:19 PM
...now I understand why dragons just have a hoard of stuff.

Imagine trying to audit that massive pile of swag with such an unwieldy counting system.

Oh, that is just a matter of familiarization and having an Int up in the stratosphere.

Andezzar
2015-03-31, 12:55 PM
...now I understand why dragons just have a hoard of stuff.

Imagine trying to audit that massive pile of swag with such an unwieldy counting system.Ever seen a tax collector near a dragon's hoard? I guess dragons do have an IRS. They call it Incoming Repast Service though.

Joe the Rat
2015-03-31, 01:12 PM
Well, I just spend the last 10 minutes searching out images of dragons and their feet.

Apparently D&D dragons are 4-toed. As such, left to their own devices, they'd probably have devised a base-8 numbering system. No idea why they have a 9 though. Probably pentadactylocentrism on the part of the artists. ("Oh, look at me. I've got these fancy thumbs for doing fine control of grasped objects.")

Although philosophically, I could see the devising of a base-9 count, as it signifies Io, the ninefold dragon.

Flickerdart
2015-03-31, 01:30 PM
French has a similar weirdness where they count by multiples for some numbers - so 91 is "four-twenty eleven" and somehow they managed to have a civilization. For dragons, 10 could just be "nine and one," eleven "nine and two," and so on until 19 which is "two-nine and one." This runs until "nine-nine and nine" (90) at which point you can change to "one-nine-nine and one" for 91, "one-nine-nine and nine and one" for 100, and so on. Once this caps out (nine-nine-nine and nine-nine and nine, or 819) you add another level (one-nine-nine-nine etc etc) and so on.

Yes, it takes a while to describe large numbers, but dragons are super-long-lived creatures who spend days just sleeping on their hoard. They're not in any rush.

Maglubiyet
2015-03-31, 01:31 PM
Well, I just spend the last 10 minutes searching out images of dragons and their feet.

Apparently D&D dragons are 4-toed. As such, left to their own devices, they'd probably have devised a base-8 numbering system. No idea why they have a 9 though. Probably pentadactylocentrism on the part of the artists. ("Oh, look at me. I've got these fancy thumbs for doing fine control of grasped objects.")

Although philosophically, I could see the devising of a base-9 count, as it signifies Io, the ninefold dragon.

Four claws per hand, plus tail = 9!

KillianHawkeye
2015-03-31, 06:37 PM
But why would they come up with Base 9? We use base 10 because we have 10 fingers (or at least that's the general understanding). What reason would dragons have for picking 9?


I could see the devising of a base-9 count, as it signifies Io, the ninefold dragon.

Yeah, I was going to say that they might count to 9 because there are 9 alignments.

Blackhawk748
2015-03-31, 07:37 PM
Four claws per hand, plus tail = 9!

Most sense of anything ive heard. Honestly a base 8 system for counting would make sense for a dragon, as you would run out of fingers to count on when your young, so it just kinda sticks with you. Though i find the suggestion of 9 to represent Io to be really cool.

cobaltstarfire
2015-03-31, 08:21 PM
Ancient Mesopotamia apparently used base 60, and Mayans used base 20 (0-19). So I don't think the number of digits or protuberances or whatever really has to determine what base system a species decides to use.

That said base 9 in relation to Io sounds like it'd be good fluff.

I think having no concept for 0 also fits with the way dragons think, although some may borrow the symbol/number from elsewhere. Maybe even dependent on the dragons color, a blue or silver may be happy to borrow it for their uses, but a red dragon may roast you for even suggesting such a thing.

hiryuu
2015-04-01, 01:29 AM
Ancient Mesopotamia apparently used base 60, and Mayans used base 20 (0-19). So I don't think the number of digits or protuberances or whatever really has to determine what base system a species decides to use.

That said base 9 in relation to Io sounds like it'd be good fluff.

I think having no concept for 0 also fits with the way dragons think, although some may borrow the symbol/number from elsewhere. Maybe even dependent on the dragons color, a blue or silver may be happy to borrow it for their uses, but a red dragon may roast you for even suggesting such a thing.

Built an entire campaign setting on base 12. Players got so used to it, some of them still do math with it, had trouble readjusting to base-10.

You can count it on your fingers, even: not using your thumb, your hands are an abacus. Right hand is single digit, left hand is tens-digit, once you're past twelve-place, inward thumb means twelve-place, outward thumb means 108th place.

nedz
2015-04-02, 04:24 AM
It's not that base-10 is the universal system that definitely has to happen. It's that we live in a world that IS base-10, so it kinda strains our brain to imagine something different being possible. We could have just as easily ended up with a base-5 if we decided "only one hand at a time".

Actually our world is increasingly base-2 :smallbiggrin:

Also, we do use other bases:
base-24/base-60 or base-12/base-60 for time of day
base-12/base-20 for old European currencies
base-60 for angles
base-7 for days of the week

KillianHawkeye
2015-04-02, 04:32 AM
Also, we do use other bases:
base-24/base-60 or base-12/base-60 for time of day
base-60 for angles
base-7 for days of the week

I don't know about old European currencies, but these at least are not accurate. Having an upper limit on something has nothing to do with the number base. All of these things are still represented in ordinary base-10 numbers, except days of the week which isn't numerical at all.

The one about angles makes even less sense, since there is really nothing special about the number 60 there. If anything, an angle of 90 degrees is of much greater importance, but still has nothing to do with what numerical system we use to express those values.

cobaltstarfire
2015-04-02, 12:14 PM
Built an entire campaign setting on base 12. Players got so used to it, some of them still do math with it, had trouble readjusting to base-10.

You can count it on your fingers, even: not using your thumb, your hands are an abacus. Right hand is single digit, left hand is tens-digit, once you're past twelve-place, inward thumb means twelve-place, outward thumb means 108th place.


Yeah, my guy knows how to do that, he really likes base 12 and feels there are many advantages to it as a counting system.

Apparently French counts in a hybrid system too, (a mix of base 10 and base 20) so we do have modern examples of different bases in some places. (although French still writes its numbers in base 10 doesn't it?)

The old coinage in Britain was not base 10 either (I'm not sure about the modern one), so it's not hard to imagine that other older currencies also were not base 10.

Temennigru
2015-04-02, 02:13 PM
Darn, I was kind of liking the idea of dragons not having a zero because of their psychology.

They could've used a base-9 numbering system. Which, incidentally, counts like:
...8, 9, 11, 12, 13...19, 21, 22

Would've been a great way to trick players translating a draconic script. "It says to push the 35th brick." But in a base-9 system, 35 = 38 in base-10.

That can't be right. If the base is smaller, numbers are also smaller.

3*9 + 5 = 32

cobaltstarfire
2015-04-02, 06:10 PM
This is how you count to 35 in base 9 (it is correct that 35=38 in base 9)

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38


But Draconic doesn't have a 0, so you'd probably end up with something more messy like


1, 2, 3 , 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, A, A1, A2, A3, A4, A5, A6, A7, A8, 2A, 2A1, 2A2 and so on.

And with the humans translating the "9" as a literal 9 rather than one whole they'd end up with for example "push the 99th brick" but the correct translation would be"push the 18th brick"

Temennigru
2015-04-02, 08:35 PM
All this discussion is useless. Wizards already fixed their mistake. Dragons do have a concept of zero. It would be stupid not to.

cobaltstarfire
2015-04-02, 08:37 PM
It isn't useless, it's pretty interesting to consider actually.

KillianHawkeye
2015-04-02, 08:58 PM
Dragons do have a concept of zero. It would be stupid not to.

It's not stupid. It's perfectly fine as long as you're not planning on doing any complicated mathematics. Zero is necessary for advanced math and science, but in a medieval fantasy world where dragons are likely to live, they don't need the number zero. I don't see anybody using negative numbers in the world of D&D either, but nobody is complaining about it because they don't need them.

Realize that before zero was a number, you just had the idea of "not any." Conceptually, this was a lot like zero, but it wasn't a number because you would just not begin counting. Here's an example: A high-level wizard can choose the number of targets that he hits with his magic missile spell, right? Well, he would never choose zero targets, he'd just not cast the spell at all.

Temennigru
2015-04-02, 11:04 PM
It's not stupid. It's perfectly fine as long as you're not planning on doing any complicated mathematics. Zero is necessary for advanced math and science, but in a medieval fantasy world where dragons are likely to live, they don't need the number zero. I don't see anybody using negative numbers in the world of D&D either, but nobody is complaining about it because they don't need them.

Realize that before zero was a number, you just had the idea of "not any." Conceptually, this was a lot like zero, but it wasn't a number because you would just not begin counting. Here's an example: A high-level wizard can choose the number of targets that he hits with his magic missile spell, right? Well, he would never choose zero targets, he'd just not cast the spell at all.

Dragons are supposed to be the smartest creatures in d&d. Of course they can do fancy mathematics.
And what happens when you come up to a dragon who got his hoard stolen and you ask him "How much is left?"? Does he start convulsing and say "Unfathomable! Unfathomable!!!!"

KillianHawkeye
2015-04-02, 11:25 PM
Dragons are supposed to be the smartest creatures in d&d. Of course they can do fancy mathematics.
And what happens when you come up to a dragon who got his hoard stolen and you ask him "How much is left?"? Does he start convulsing and say "Unfathomable! Unfathomable!!!!"

Really? Are dragons doing algebra now? And the answer to your question is, as I already said, "not any." I already tried to explain this, but there's a big difference between not using zero as a number and not understanding what "nothing" means.

hiryuu
2015-04-03, 12:03 AM
Really? Are dragons doing algebra now? And the answer to your question is, as I already said, "not any." I already tried to explain this, but there's a big difference between not using zero as a number and not understanding what "nothing" means.

You know, that'd be a fun idea. Dragon concept of "0" is actually as an imaginary number - they lump it in with all other constants or variables they use for calculations. This could make them really good stargazers and amazing at calculus-like math forms, but poor arithmeticians. I've even seem some math systems that work -around- zero and don't require it to perform their calculation (notable some high level big bang level math, something I'd think dragons might discover first). And inability to compute for zero could also account for their ability at magic - since magic is, essentially, in D&D, saying "screw you zero, i do what i want!" - Dragons could be totally boss at it. It'd make for some really interesting attempts to explain things

Ralanr
2015-04-03, 12:12 AM
Dragons are supposed to be the smartest creatures in d&d. Of course they can do fancy mathematics.
And what happens when you come up to a dragon who got his hoard stolen and you ask him "How much is left?"? Does he start convulsing and say "Unfathomable! Unfathomable!!!!"

Or focus their smarts at other things. Like poetry, philosophy, and magic...

Why are they the smartest? No seriously, why are dragons considered the smartest? I know they're lazy since they love to lay around their dragon hoards of treasure and do nothing. Are they smart? Sure. Smartest? No.

Side note: Has anyone actually ever spoken draconic out loud? It sounds similar to a real world language but I can't put my fingers on which.

cobaltstarfire
2015-04-03, 12:30 AM
It'd be interesting background fluff, give dragons (or any other non-human critter) a system that isn't positional, and isn't base 10.


I've actually learned some things thanks to this thread cause it prompted me to go sniff out a bit more information beyond what I've already learned. (I'm really quite bad at math, but my guy is very good at it and taught me about different bases last year).

I'm pretty thoroughly convinced that a dragon doesn't need the concept for 0 to do the sorts of things dragons do. They can be really smart, but if they have no need for the number 0, they certainly wouldn't invent it or even use it, except in the case of a dragon who is just fascinated by the type of math that requires it.

Andezzar
2015-04-03, 12:44 AM
Why are they the smartest? No seriously, why are dragons considered the smartest? I know they're lazy since they love to lay around their dragon hoards of treasure and do nothing. Are they smart? Sure. Smartest? No.Just look at their INT scores. I'm not sure if they are the smartest (white ones surely aren't) but they are still very smart.

Temennigru
2015-04-03, 12:51 AM
There is a feat called draconic knowledge.
Dragons pass on their knowledge to their offspring, so it's cumulative. That's why they are the smartest bunch.

A system that goes from 1 - 9 is also not a valid number system. You need 0 to do maths. Not fancy maths, just regular maths.

Ralanr
2015-04-03, 01:00 AM
Just look at their INT scores. I'm not sure if they are the smartest (white ones surely aren't) but they are still very smart.

I'll agree they're very smart (Except for Whites. But you really don't want to screw with a white anyway since they have ferocity on the level of animals.)


There is a feat called draconic knowledge.
Dragons pass on their knowledge to their offspring, so it's cumulative. That's why they are the smartest bunch.


So do Aboleths (Technically) which I think might be smarter. Are they a smart race, yes. I don't think they're the smartest race.

Doesn't mentally passing down knowledge to someone sound a bit lazy though? I mean there is a difference between knowing something and understanding it. I can say E=mc2 but that doesn't mean I understand what that means. So just passing down this knowledge (Through a mental mind link?) seems pretty hazardous on the development of the draconic brain (I mean humans need about 20-25 years to fully develop their brains. I doubt dragons need supremely less time).

And wouldn't that mean personalities are transferred? So the offspring is a literal copy of their parent? (Ok this is a LONG stretch.)

Temennigru
2015-04-03, 02:31 AM
Doesn't mentally passing down knowledge to someone sound a bit lazy though? I mean there is a difference between knowing something and understanding it. I can say E=mc2 but that doesn't mean I understand what that means. So just passing down this knowledge (Through a mental mind link?) seems pretty hazardous on the development of the draconic brain (I mean humans need about 20-25 years to fully develop their brains. I doubt dragons need supremely less time).

And wouldn't that mean personalities are transferred? So the offspring is a literal copy of their parent? (Ok this is a LONG stretch.)

Knowing what e=mc2 means is also knowledge.

And I don't think dragons tend to their young, yet they can all speak draconic.

KillianHawkeye
2015-04-03, 03:28 AM
A system that goes from 1 - 9 is also not a valid number system. You need 0 to do maths. Not fancy maths, just regular maths.

Once again, if all of the math you do remains in the realm of positive numbers and simple arithmetic operations, you don't really have any need to use zero as a number. This happens to coincide pretty well with the amount of math normal people need to do on a regular basis, whether it's in the fantasyland of D&D or here in the real world (unless you use trigonometry or calculus or computer programming for your job).

cobaltstarfire
2015-04-03, 03:42 AM
A system that goes from 1 - 9 is also not a valid number system. You need 0 to do maths. Not fancy maths, just regular maths.

This is incorrect, you should stop repeating it over and over, because doing so isn't going to change the fact that your statement is wrong.

Surpriser
2015-04-03, 05:46 AM
It is important (and was mentioned previously) to distinguish between not having a symbol for the number "zero" and not having a concept of "nothingness".

There have been multiple different systems in this thread alone that show how to represent any (at least integer) number without a need for a "zero" symbol. And if you can represent numbers, you can do math with them.
Of course, some representations will be quite complicated to use (like my prime factorization system, where multiplication is easy, but any other operation is nearly impossible to use in practice). Normally, such a system would not become wide-spread because we simply do not have the brain capacity to perform everyday caculcations in them. However, dragons are represented as incredibly intelligent and might be able to use such a system with ease - in fact, them being able to do so demonstrates their intellectural superiority in a beautiful way.

I agree that adding the number "zero" makes a lot if things much easier and that mathematics is pretty much impossible without a concept of "nothing". Everyone needs to somehow express "nothingness" - but you don't need to have a number for it.

Flickerdart
2015-04-03, 09:35 AM
What's all this "dragons are supposed to be super smart" nonsense? Dragons are not exceptionally smart for a D&D creature. White dragons only get to INT 10 as adults, over 100 years into their life. Most Great Wyrms (with the notable exceptions of the top dragons, Golds and Reds, plus a few others) top out at INT in the low 20s.

While the genius Wyrms (those Reds and Golds who survive to see INT in the low 30s) might come up with a zero if they decide to do math (which very few will, since dragons aren't really academic creatures), it is unlikely that these rare, solitary creatures will share their discovery with other dragons, whom they are likely to regard as rivals.

Andezzar
2015-04-03, 10:40 AM
What other creatures have INT in the 30s?

Milodiah
2015-04-03, 11:04 AM
...a well-built high level wizard?


Anyway, where does calculus come into this game? This game is (incredibly) loosely based on a medieval culture most of the time, and medieval cultures still didn't have the ultracomplex mathematics that go into theoretical physics, analytical chemistry, advanced calculus, etc. For that matter, this is a world where magic is used instead of technology in many instances, and magic (depending on how you fluff it) is less dependent on calculation than engineering and such.

Besides, even the Romans didn't have a "number" zero. The number zero is an invention of the Arabic numeral system. They used "null". It's not a massive difference, especially when you're doing simple things.

Flickerdart
2015-04-03, 11:08 AM
What other creatures have INT in the 30s?
Demiliches, Gibbering Orbs, Ha-Naga, leShay, Elder Titans, and Uvuudaum all have 30+ INT, and that's just SRD material. Saying "dragons are super smart" just because some dragons are is as true as saying "aberrations are super smart" just because gibbering orbs have 40 INT.

And yes, all these are Epic monsters, but Great Wyrm Gold dragons are CR27, which is more than most of these.

Andezzar
2015-04-03, 11:38 AM
...a well-built high level wizard?Not without items, unless I am missing something. 18 +5levels = 23<30. I'm not aware of a race with a +8 bonus to INT that has no LA. Dragons using items and/or tomes will go into the forties.

@Flickerdart: Of those mentioned only the Ha-Naga has a CR lower than 27. Also, there are any creatures of the dragon type that are not particularly intelligent. We are mostly talking about True Dragons with the exception of the whites.

I think you will have problems non-epic finding monsters with comparable INT. I'm not saying that they don't exist, but that there are very few.

Flickerdart
2015-04-03, 11:54 AM
I think you will have problems non-epic finding monsters with comparable INT. I'm not saying that they don't exist, but that there are very few.
Either Epic is fine, or wyrm dragons don't count. Can't have it both ways.

Andezzar
2015-04-03, 11:57 AM
Where does it say that Great Wyrms are Epic monsters?

Flickerdart
2015-04-03, 12:14 PM
Where does it say that Great Wyrms are Epic monsters?
What, the fact that they're an appropriate challenge only for epic-level PCs doesn't clue you in?

cobaltstarfire
2015-04-03, 12:32 PM
Anything with an intelligence pushing 20 is pretty super human, so I think most of the "greater" true dragons still count as extremely smart. (That is the Golds, Silvers, Blues, and Reds if I remember correctly?) At least as far as D&D is concerned.

The rest of them, the ones in the 10-15 range are still average to gifted by human standards. And even the ones that aren't super smart can appear so simply because they have an alien physiology, which could allow for them to be able to think about or understand things completely differently from us in the first place.

Ralanr
2015-04-03, 07:58 PM
So I take it no one can give a guess about any real world languages that draconic sounds familiar too?

Milo v3
2015-04-03, 08:57 PM
So I take it no one can give a guess about any real world languages that draconic sounds familiar too?

Considering no one has any idea what draconic sounds like, that sounds rather impossible.

Ralanr
2015-04-03, 09:32 PM
Considering no one has any idea what draconic sounds like, that sounds rather impossible.

1. They have a description of how it's pronounced in the 5e PHB

2. http://draconic.twilightrealm.com/ <-- Language translator. Don't know if official for D&D but it's what I've been using.

Temennigru
2015-04-04, 10:19 PM
...a well-built high level wizard?


Anyway, where does calculus come into this game? This game is (incredibly) loosely based on a medieval culture most of the time, and medieval cultures still didn't have the ultracomplex mathematics that go into theoretical physics, analytical chemistry, advanced calculus, etc. For that matter, this is a world where magic is used instead of technology in many instances, and magic (depending on how you fluff it) is less dependent on calculation than engineering and such.

Besides, even the Romans didn't have a "number" zero. The number zero is an invention of the Arabic numeral system. They used "null". It's not a massive difference, especially when you're doing simple things.

Calculus was invented in medieval times...
Way before that we had very precise orbital predictions.


Where does it say that Great Wyrms are Epic monsters?

Draconomicon, page 66


Considering no one has any idea what draconic sounds like, that sounds rather impossible.

According to the descriptions I found, draconic seems to sound like a mixture of Parseltongue from harry potter (because of the hissing sounds) and hebrew (because of the throat sounds, such as "ach")

The guy in this video seems to have gotten it right (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulaUQjbuLGM)


1. They have a description of how it's pronounced in the 5e PHB



At page 34*

Temennigru
2015-04-04, 10:27 PM
{Merged Posts}

Temennigru
2015-04-04, 10:34 PM
{Merged Posts}

Temennigru
2015-04-04, 10:54 PM
{Merged Posts}

Andezzar
2015-04-05, 12:50 AM
Draconomicon, page 66On this page I only find a rule that allows dragons of at least old age to take epic feats. This is a specific exception to the usual prerequisite of epic feats. It does not make the dragon an epic character. If it did, every dragonwrought kobold of at least old age would be an epic creature too.

As for the CR of great wyrms, this does not make make them Epic monsters either. I'm not aware of a rule saying any creature with a CR above 24 is an epic creature. You can have more than four level 20 characters in the party and thus have a party level higher than 20. As such even monsters with a CR above 24 can be an appropriate encounter for a non-epic party. With a party level of 22 (8 characters) all but the Gold Wyrm are in the appropriate bracket. The DM can also lower the EL of an encounter if there are favorable conditions for the PCs making even a Gold Wyrm an appropriate encounter.

KillianHawkeye
2015-04-05, 01:02 AM
I'm pretty sure there's no rule about what counts as an Epic monster and what doesn't. The Epic Level Handbook had some high CR monsters designed specifically to fight against Epic level characters, but there's really no solid definition for what counts as an Epic level threat and what doesn't. The only thing we have to go on is CR, and so it can be said that any creature with a CR over over 20 could be a challenge for Epic level characters.

Sure, having an over-sized party will help you fight stronger monsters, but that doesn't change how strong the monster is rated as.