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Takamari
2007-04-17, 10:59 PM
I know this build is not optimized, but it is what I'm going with. Ranger 6/Rogue 3. I have some ideas on how to spend my 36k, but I don't have the new Magic Item Compendium. I want some input on equipment and feedback on what I've chosen so far. Again, I know this is not an optimized build.

Gloves of Dex +2
+2 Morphing Composite Longbow (mighty 3)
+2 Mithral Shirt
Ring of Featherfall

Multiple scrolls including one teleport, and 4 invisibility, greater.
2x wand of cure light wounds.

I figure that an archer is doomed when the enemy closes in. I've got an Arrow Mind memorized for that occasion, but my armor class is only 21, and at CR 9, I'm hit too much. The Morphing bow gives me a longsword and then I can get out my large wooden shield. It only puts me up to 23, but in my experience, it helps.

Are there any other enhancements that would be better for my bow? I'm going for the sniper style character, but to make use of my sneak attack I need to be within 30ft, otherwise I'd go with distance.

Any equipment that I don't know about that will be helpful?

Thanks

Matthew
2007-04-17, 11:01 PM
It is cheaper to get a Ring of Protection +1 and a Mithral Mail Shirt +1 than a Mithril Mail Shirt +2.

Takamari
2007-04-17, 11:05 PM
Hm, I didn't look at that. Saves me 1000gp. That could be more potions, wands, or scrolls.

Vyker
2007-04-17, 11:06 PM
Out of curiosity, why the Ring of Featherfall?

Matthew
2007-04-17, 11:08 PM
Plenty of Magic Arrows of varying types would also be wise, they don't need more than a +1 Enhancement Bonus, since your Bow will take care of that aspect.

Grr
2007-04-17, 11:08 PM
Sad that people have to put, "I know this isn't optimized, but it's what I'm using." in their posts. Use the extra money to invest in some barkskin potions maybe.

Takamari
2007-04-17, 11:10 PM
Sorry, a Ring of Feather Fall-continual feather fall. Too many characters have died horribly by falling to their dooms.

I was thinking about magic arrows. If my calculations are correct, and I think they are, it costs 160gp for a +2 arrow. I could by some +1 bane arrows or elemental damage arrows.

JaronK
2007-04-17, 11:11 PM
Sad that people have to put, "I know this isn't optimized, but it's what I'm using." in their posts.

Keep that to those two threads currently on that topic, okay?

Anyway, for the OP: consider getting a Rust Bag of Tricks. It's not too expensive, and would give you a pocket tank to deal with anyone getting too close ("ah, it's after me! I throw a bear on it!").

JaronK

Matthew
2007-04-17, 11:14 PM
Yeah, Fire Arrows, Ice arrows, etc...

Now that I cme to think about it, consider saving some Gold until you know what the upcoming Adventure will entail, so you can buy 'appropriate' Arrows.

Takamari
2007-04-17, 11:16 PM
A Rust Bag of Tricks? lol. Never thought of that one. What about the Morphing on my bow? I think that it is a good idea, but for the cost of that enchantment I could get a second +2 weapon.

Matthew
2007-04-17, 11:18 PM
Where's Morphing from? I wouldn't bother, somebody sunders it and you're done, but that's just me. Usually, you need a One Handed and Light Weapon as back ups. A +2 Bow, +1 Sword and +1 Dagger comes to about 12,000 GP.

Takamari
2007-04-17, 11:27 PM
Morphing, lol, I read it in Crystal Keep's Magic sections. Therefore, it is possible that it comes Dragon or Dungeon Magazine.

I thought it would be nifty to have my bow turn into my sword, but that sunder possibility would just ruin my day. It is much smarter to cover myself and go for the +1 sword and +1 dagger. My game master has punished people before for putting all of their eggs in one basket.

JaronK
2007-04-17, 11:33 PM
A Rust Bag of Tricks? lol.

Damned effective though. No one ever expects you to throw a bear on them... and the bear can grapple targets, giving you sneak attacks! And with 10 uses a week, you can use it in a lot of fights.

JaronK

ocato
2007-04-17, 11:37 PM
I dunno about the price, but the good old Oathbow is lovely.

Takamari
2007-04-17, 11:42 PM
The only problem with the bag is that i only have a 14% chance for the bear, but in either case, it is a decent idea, and for only 3000gp, it is affordable too.

Matthew
2007-04-17, 11:49 PM
I dunno about the price, but the good old Oathbow is lovely.
It is a good weapon, but it is also 25,000 GP, just so you know...

Takamari
2007-04-17, 11:50 PM
I have always loved the Oathbow, always. The biggest problem with it is the price. Thats almost all the money I would have...a shame we didnt' start a few levels higher....

Wehrkind
2007-04-18, 05:03 AM
How about Tanglefoot Bags?

Alternately, an item of "Evard's Black Tentacles" a few times a day might be an amusing way to mitigate people closing with you.

Or a wand of Entangle or something. Tentacles always make for better role playing opportunities, however.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-18, 05:21 AM
Since you're an archer (it looks like), don't bother with two +1 melee weapons. A masterwork dagger and the morphing bow should probably work. If the enemy closes, morph to sword & board, then fight defensively with combat expertise, and let someone else take care of whatever broke through the ranks. Alternatively, tossing an animal from the bag at them gives you flanking, which means sneak attacks.

For another 1000, you can get a +1 on your shield. 4000 = +2 shield.
Archers don't need that much armor, if they stay back.

Magic arrows, in the end, aren't worth their price. A handful for situations in which you need to overcome DR or whatever, but otherwise, an enchanted bow ultimately saves you money.

Lord Tataraus
2007-04-18, 06:04 AM
Why have a morphing longbow? Just make it elvencraft. For 300gp you can interchange between bow and quarterstaff in the middle of a full attack. A lot more cost efficient.

Telonius
2007-04-18, 09:45 AM
Get about 8-10 each of Silver, Cold Iron, and Adamantine arrows. You won't need all that many of them, just enough so that you'll be useful if the occasion arises.

How much does Morphing add to your Weapon cost modifier? +1, I'm assuming? That means 18,000 for your bow, as is. One thing you could do would be to bump the bow down to a +1 Morphing Bow, Mighty (4). That will only cost you 8,000. Get some Gauntlets of Ogre Power for 4,000, to bring your damage back up, and Lesser Bracers of Archery for 5,000 to bring your attack bonus up. Total cost: 17,000. If you knock off the Morphing, and use an Elvencraft, as Lord Tataraus suggests, you could shave another 6,000 off of that price.

ocato
2007-04-18, 09:52 AM
I agree with a Mighty Morphin' Power Bow.

Dooo do doo dodo dooo. Go go Power Ranger, animal companion zord!

Fhaolan
2007-04-18, 07:28 PM
I'm not sure if this would help or not, but if you're going sniper, perhaps some magic equipment to increase your mobility or speed. Just to do the 'You can't catch me, I'm the Gingerbread Man' bit. :smallsmile:

Matthew
2007-04-18, 10:24 PM
If you do go with Gauntlets of Ogre Strength, you will have to rethink your Gloves of Dexterity.

I still wouldn't be inclined to put all your eggs in one basket by way of weapons. Even a Masterwork Long Sword and Dagger are worth getting as back ups.

Telonius
2007-04-19, 08:07 AM
Whoops, hadn't noticed that. So, best bet, get an Elvencraft bow. Swap out Morphing for another +1 to your weapon (net price: 300 gp more); or ditch Morphing and use the 10,000 gold on anything else useful.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-19, 08:35 AM
Get a belt of ogre strength. Same cost, takes up the belt space.

Person_Man
2007-04-19, 09:40 AM
Morphing is a pretty useless ability, and thus a waste of money. If someone attacks you in close range, take a 5' step and shoot at them. Or drop the bow and draw a longsword.

The Ring of Featherfall is likewise a waste of gp unless you fly a lot. You might use it once in an entire campaign, saving yourself from a small to moderate amount of damage. Not really worth it.

Scrolls and potions are really, really a waste of money unless its a one shot campaign. You use them, and they're gone. Plus you have to make a UMD check (which might fizzle) if you are not normally capable of casting the spell.

I suggest:

2,200 - Mithril Shirt +1, + AC, +5 AC
1,165 - Buckler +1, +2 AC
2,000 - Amulet of Natural Armor +1, +1 AC
4,000 - Gloves of Dexterity +2 (+1 AC)
24,000 - Cloak of Minor Displacement (20% concealment)
750 - Wand of Cure Light Wounds (in case your Cleric is dead)

That will give you a +9 to AC and 20% concealment. The Cloak in particular is a great investment, as it works continuously (unlike its Major version). Pretty much every character should have one as soon as they can afford it and they should keep it all the way up to ECL 20. When you go to buy more items, remember that multiple cheap items are usually more efficient then single expensive items.

I wouldn't bother buying a magic bow at this ECL, just use masterwork. Why? Because 99% of DM's will hand out a magic bow at some point during their campaign. It's almost a rule. And even if he doesn't, your main goal is to stay alive and be a nifty Skill Monkey. A few extra points of damage in combat really aren't worth much for your build. At higher level, invest in a +1 Composite Bow of Flaming Frost Shock Acid (+4d6 damage). But until then, focus on defense and utility.

Perhaps there are better suggestions. But to give them to you, I need to know what books are available to you.

Telonius
2007-04-19, 10:25 AM
Hmm, I really don't know about that, PersonMan. Counting on the DM to give you the stuff you need really hasn't panned out very well in my campaigns. If you go that route, I'd still have at least some +1 arrows around, in case you need them for DR. Cost is 2000gp for 50, or 40 gp per arrow. 5-10 of them should be plenty, for 200-400gp.

Person_Man
2007-04-19, 11:04 AM
Hmm, I really don't know about that, PersonMan. Counting on the DM to give you the stuff you need really hasn't panned out very well in my campaigns. If you go that route, I'd still have at least some +1 arrows around, in case you need them for DR. Cost is 2000gp for 50, or 40 gp per arrow. 5-10 of them should be plenty, for 200-400gp.

Well, you obviously know your DM better then I do. But a standard encounter is to have the PC's attacked or ambushed by enemies using ranged attacks. So its pretty common to get a magic bow from someone. If you feel you really need it, then get it. But again, I would council you to focus on defense rather then offense.

But even if you do buy a magic bow, don't buy magic arrows, and in general you should avoid anything that is a disposable item. You're basically pissing away money.

If you come to a situation where you can't hurt someone because of damage reduction, you can fight defensively, move into flanking position, and Aid Another. Or use Intimidate to make your enemy Shaken. Or buy a guisarme, keep it strapped to your back, and use it for Trip attacks. Or buy a heavy flail and keep it as a backup to make disarm attacks. There are lots of things you can do besides hurt someone that helps you win combat, and none of it requires a magic weapon. If you were a Tank, you'd want to focus on dealing damage. But you're not. Focus on Skills, and try to distract your enemies in combat so that your other more potent party members can kill them.

Lolzords
2007-04-19, 12:18 PM
Ah. I recently made a Ranger 8/Rouge 1. For this character I'm focusing on speed, stealth and a stupidly high AC.

Mithral Scale Mail for armour. Useful, decent bonus and counts as light armour.

Weapons, I had two +2 swords. (Longsword of icy burst and shortsword of flaming burst)

As I'm focusing on stealth and high armour class; I got +1 protection amulet and ring. I bought boots of elvenkind to help with move silently. (Quite handy, costs just over 2k for a +5 bonus with MS.) Finally, I bought some goggles of night, grants me permanent 60' nightvision.

Matthew
2007-04-19, 02:50 PM
But even if you do buy a magic bow, don't buy magic arrows, and in general you should avoid anything that is a disposable item. You're basically pissing away money.
Now that's an interesting view point and runs contrary to just about every post I have ever read concerning Magical Arrows and Bows. I don't know if I agree with it or not.

Person_Man
2007-04-19, 03:55 PM
Now that's an interesting view point and runs contrary to just about every post I have ever read concerning Magical Arrows and Bows. I don't knw if I agree with it or not.

My argument is this:

1) Anyone with access to Greater Magic Weapon (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/spellsMtoO.html#greater-magic-weapon) can make a large number of magic arrows for you quite cheaply. These can and obviously should be used with magic bows whenever possible, and replaces much of the need to buy magic ammo. If no one in your party is willing to do this for you, you obviously have jerks for friends, and should respond by playing a Frenzied Berserker.

2) In a standard campaign, a good DM will have 4ish+ encounters per game day, to balance out players who play spellcasters, whose spells have limited uses. Thus it is better to have items that are continuously effective rather then having limited supplies. This is especially true for players that choose to play non-casters, since low and mid level casters have a habit of hoarding their best spells for the most difficult combats, so everyone else has to pick up the slack when you're fighting the Orcs and Goblins.

3) If you get into the habit of buying and using magical ammo on a regular basis, its easy to burn through a lot of gold over the course of your campaign, depriving yourself of much more powerful items in the long run.

4) As a ranged combatant, it is usually more important to have high AC, Saves, and more tactical options (Flight, Blinking, True Seeing, Entangle, Fear, etc) rather then having a slightly higher damage output. Unless you are the Leap Attack Shock Trooper or a full caster, your goal in combat is to draw your enemies away from the front line and the full casters, annoy the hades out of them, and tie them up until someone else can kill them. They're much much better at it then you are, but they need your help to stay alive and solve the Skill encounters.


The exceptions are:

A) If you are going to fight a BBEG or other potent enemy, keep a small number of +5 Arrows of Bane Wounding Slaying Vorpal Shocking Burst, and make sure to spend plenty of time before combat researching the BBEG (Gather Information is your friend) so that you have the best possible ammo on hand.

B) If you're in a one shot or otherwise short term campaign, where you won't have that many combats or much of a chance to accumulate wealth. In that case, magic ammo is usually the cheaper and more powerful option.

C) If you're playing in a very high level game and swimming in platinum pieces. Then go crazy and buy whatever you want.

daggaz
2007-04-19, 04:03 PM
Now that's an interesting view point and runs contrary to just about every post I have ever read concerning Magical Arrows and Bows. I don't know if I agree with it or not.

Huh? I've read plenty of posts on this board that say much the same thing, at least as far as tossing away magical one shot items... it IS pissing away money, even if you win.

Of course, at some point you should have some more money, and yeah you should invest some of it in DR defeating arrows as an archer... but just enough, really. Don't prioritize this part of your build.

Matthew
2007-04-19, 04:43 PM
About one shot items, sure, but rarely about Magical Arrows specifically.

BardicDuelist
2007-04-19, 08:49 PM
Mithril Breastplate generally works well.
A collection of random magic arrows is always useful. (The whole Green Arrow thing, always having the right arrow at the right time is fun too).

Matthew
2007-04-19, 09:13 PM
My argument is this:

1) Anyone with access to Greater Magic Weapon (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/spellsMtoO.html#greater-magic-weapon) can make a large number of magic arrows for you quite cheaply. These can and obviously should be used with magic bows whenever possible, and replaces much of the need to buy magic ammo. If no one in your party is willing to do this for you, you obviously have jerks for friends, and should respond by playing a Frenzied Berserker.
Sure, but they cannot make 'special' Arrow types, or can they?


2) In a standard campaign, a good DM will have 4ish+ encounters per game day, to balance out players who play spellcasters, whose spells have limited uses. Thus it is better to have items that are continuously effective rather then having limited supplies. This is especially true for players that choose to play non-casters, since low and mid level casters have a habit of hoarding their best spells for the most difficult combats, so everyone else has to pick up the slack when you're fighting the Orcs and Goblins.

Okay, I will buy that.


3) If you get into the habit of buying and using magical ammo on a regular basis, its easy to burn through a lot of gold over the course of your campaign, depriving yourself of much more powerful items in the long run.

I think here, things start to get a little bit blurry. A lot depends on how the DM administers his game, but following the Wealth By Level guidelines, Characters who do not purchase and make use of one shot items may, in fact, be robbing themselves, as Wealth By Level doesn't refer to the amount acquired over the course of gaining the level, but how much you would be expected to have upon attaining that level. Buying and using consumable magical items should not harm your total wealth, it would result in a higher turnover (I think that's the right word), by which I mean the DM is obligated to give out a greater total amount of treasure when he observes it being expended in this way. Of course, this creates certain practical problems if your group does not recognise expendable magical items as 'costs incurred by the party' [i.e. it should be absorbed by the party collectively and deducted from the treasure totals before normal division].


4) As a ranged combatant, it is usually more important to have high AC, Saves, and more tactical options (Flight, Blinking, True Seeing, Entangle, Fear, etc) rather then having a slightly higher damage output. Unless you are the Leap Attack Shock Trooper or a full caster, your goal in combat is to draw your enemies away from the front line and the full casters, annoy the hades out of them, and tie them up until someone else can kill them. They're much much better at it then you are, but they need your help to stay alive and solve the Skill encounters.

I think this sounds reasonable, but I also think that when a certain proportion of your character's equipment is of this type, it ought result in you having more tactical options.

Generic PC
2007-04-19, 09:35 PM
First, the Magic item compendium actually has a weapon called the sword bow which can "morph" between a +1 longbow and a +1 longsword, and it costs *pages flipping* 6,000. however, bonus prices are doubled, and if you add things like vorpal (can only be used on Slashing Weapons) you must use the +5 for other effects only added to the bow, or forfiet some gold (in some cases, ALOT) There is also a great Swordbow form (Composite Longbow+1/Bastard Sword(?)+1), A Short Sword bow form(Shortbow+1/Shortsword+1) which both have similar attributes. The compendium also has a gem insert list, one of which i BELIEVE, but am not sure will prevent any magic item from sundering (least) 2/day, recharged at end of day, (lesser) 4/day recharged at end of day, and (great) 6/day, recharged at end of day. this could be an alternative? i would like to also point out, as was hinted at earilier in my post, that Vorpal cannot be attached to Piericing or Bludgeoning weapons. It is described as cutting somethings head off when a natural 20 is rolled and confirmed, which wouldnt work with an arrow, nor a quarterstaff. This is an alternative to the elvenkind method, and allows the original Longsword idea