Barbarian/Ranger; a bad idea?

[raistlin807]

Okay, I was thinking of creating a scout/insurgent charachter for a wilderness campaign in Eberron (in Xen'drix) And I thought a lvl 1 Barb lvl 3 Ranger human would be a good build. We're using a point build, so I can't rely on good random rolls. The way I see it- 2 weapon fighting and rage is just orgasmicly good. Any suggestions for powerful builds? I know it sounds horrible to focus on optimization rather than roleplaying but we're an extremely weak party and I have to fill a frontline combat role so the rest of us won't "get eaten by a moose" as the Logicninja so elegantly put it.

[kamikasei]

I know it sounds horrible to focus on optimization rather than roleplaying

I assure you it doesn't.

And at first blush, it seems like a good idea to me. Combat-wise, Rage doesn't interfere with the Ranger's fighting (until you get spells). You don't really have any worse MAD than a regular Ranger, and the armor limitations on both mesh. It doesn't sound like a particularly powerful build, but the two classes don't trip one another up, either.

I would say that you might want to take the Barbarian level somewhere other than first, though, in order to get the Ranger's skill points for the first-level x4.

[Da Beast]

That would actually be pretty weak, but if it sounds fun then play it. With intelligent skill usage and decent combat ability you'll still be useful, just not as much as some other melee builds.

Also, two weapon fighting is bad for most anyone other than rogues. You'd do better with a great sword with archery as a backup.

[Generic PC]

At first sight, it looks amazing. just like any other build at 1-4 level that doesnt have 4 Multi classes in that frame. after rolling it over in my head, it doesnt seem great... Barbarian is made to do loads of damage in one hit, not a bit of damage on two. Kamikasei has a good point though, nothing really interferes, but also, nothing really compliments either...

[kamikasei]

Yeah, the thing is, all Rage gets you is extra Strength. That is best used in combat with a two-handed weapon. TWF doesn't benefit terribly much from the boost.

What's the rest of the party playing? Depending on the niche you need to fill, there are probably better options available. Scout comes to mind, depending on how much of a frontline character you need (as opposed to a skillful one, which the classes you've mentioned imply). Oh, and what books you can choose from is the other question.

[averagejoe]

The main thing that occurs to me is that fast movement is good for a mobile scout type character, as well as giving him a much needed boost to the HP, but TWF is never really good, even if rage helps negate the penalties somewhat, and the barbarian doesn't synergize particularly well with an archer build.

[Orzel]

An archery ranger that favored power attacks for 1d12+OMG damage is nice.

That'll make "melee the archer" a bad tactic for some races.

Take the ranger levels first for the 4x skill though.

[Tellah]

The way I see it- 2 weapon fighting and rage is just orgasmicly good. Any suggestions for powerful builds?

Naw, rage doesn't do for 2-weapon fighting what you need it to. 2-weapon fighting requires the addition of bonus damage applied to each attack to be particularly effective, which is why it's a viable choice for rogues. Rage gives you +2 damage to each hit through your strength bonus, increasing very gradually as you level up. A rogue's sneak attack, on the other hand, offers an additional 3.5 points of damage to each strike, and it scales up much more quickly.

It's becoming a tired refrain, but many of the best melee fighting builds come from the ToB. Dipping into Warblade would allow you to take advantage of Tiger Claw maneuvers, which help you make full attacks. Sudden Leap, for instance, helps you to get close enough to pull off a full attack more often, while Dancing Mongoose allows you to make additional attacks as part of your routine. Add in damage-boosting maneuvers, like Stone Dragon's Bonecrusher, and you're looking at a pretty good TWF build.

Psychic Warrior works nicely as well, although the mesh with rage is weaker if you're set on taking Barbarian levels. Psionic Lion's Charge will net you your prized full attacks on a charge. Combine this with the Psionic Weapon feat, Offensive Prescience and other methods of enhancing damage, and you can build a nice TWF out of a Psychic Warrior, although without the staying power or BAB of the Warblade.

Once you hit 13th level, the Duskblade is a capable TWF build, as the Duskblade is capable of using Arcane Channeling to add a spell effect to every attack in a full attack action. The wording of the ability indicates that the spell would effect each creature attacked only once, so the utility of the ability is somewhat limited to crowd-fighting situations.

These are the TWF builds I've looked into; not having played one myself, I humbly concede that better options probably exist.

[feollus]

That build doesn't sound bad. It's not optimized, but it works. Since you only have four levels so far, it's hard to extrapolate what else you might want to do, but if you only dip for one level in barbarian (for fast movement and rage), that seems well worth one ranger level.

[Roethke]

Well, a thing to do, would be to tweak the ranger, ever so slightly, to fit in more with the barbarian playstyle.

Instead of 2-weapon fighting, maybe bump up the animal companion by a hit die, making the character more of a 'Beastmaster', type. Or, give him augment summoning for your ranger spells.

Another route would be a survivalist, I'd say Diehard as a bonus feat may be about as good as a a weapon style, and fits in with my vision of a barb/ranger.

Of course it depends on how flexible the DM is, but I don't think the above suggestions are way out of whack. Of course, playing ranger straight, and using the bow as a backup wouldn't be too bad. you can soften them up, while your companion keeps them at bay, and then charge in.

[Jerthanis]

I've played around with the idea of a bow wielding Barbarian for a while thinking of ways to make it work, multiclassing it with Scout or Ranger, and I always come back to the idea that Barbarians benefit most in melee. The problem is, is that they don't really give Ranger much for the TWF path, and you'd probably (almost certainly) find that dropping the offhand weapon and two handing your longsword, or your backup greatsword is more mechanically effective in melee anyway.

Still, I think the idea of this character multiclass is entirely viable. Like others have said, nothing gets in the way of itself, you'll have good skills, good movement, good base attack, pretty good HP and so on. I'd suggest going with the ranged combat style and depending on a greatsword or other two handed weapon for melee. Still, if TWF is awesome to you, use it, and I'm sure you won't have too much trouble.

An idea for a homebrewed weapon enhancement for bows came to mind while I was trying to make a bow wielding Barbarian. I called it "Mercurial Pull" (because I couldn't think of anything better) and it was a +1 equivalent enhancement that allowed the bow to automatically adjust its pull to the strength of its wielder up to a +5 strength bonus (and along with that, a "Greater Mercurial Pull without the limit of a +5 bonus") this would allow for the changing strength score due to raging to not be wasted on the bow. Perhaps worth a thought or running by a DM.

[PnP Fan]

Fluff wise you sound fine, as others have said you build isn't complementary, but it's not self destructive either. If your core concept is "scout" though, you might consider Rogue/Ranger in some mix. Way more skill points, the extra damage you need to make the TWF thing work well, Dex becomes a primary attribute all around, couple that with Weapon Finesse and you've got some abilities that stack with one another. Just a suggestion, I've seen it work for archers, and I can't think of any mechanical reason it wouldn't work for TWF. Probably would work better, actually.
Having said that, I can also see the coolness that Orzel points out, using Bbn for melee to compliment a ranger's ranged combat.

[Bears With Lasers]

Here's a thought: put your rage to use by TWFing with a greatsword and armor spikes (or spiked gauntlets, or boot blades, or something else you don't need free hands for).

What sources are availible to you? Barbarian 1/Ranger 3/Fighter 2, say, makes for a solid entry into the Horizon Walker PrC if you're core; stick with that until you get Dimension Door every 1d4 rounds.

[Kel_Arath]

mess with RPing a barb? the point of a barb is to hit stuff...

[PnP Fan]

mess with RPing a barb? the point of a barb is to hit stuff...

The point of a barb? lol that's funny. :-)

[Norsesmithy]

Use Archery style and javelins or harpoons, pick up brutal throw and power throw.

Kill stuff.

[Ikkitosen]

Use an alternative fighting style - not archery or TWF. The rules are optional, but you can replace the feats you get at 2, 6, 11 with:

Imp Un Str, Imp Grapple, Stunning Fist (bear-wrestling, lol!)

Ride-by attack, spirited charge, trample (mounted)

Power attack, imp sunder, great cleave (strong-arm)

Quick draw, pbs, far shot (throwing)


Strong arm looks good for you - free power attack, works GREAT with a big sword or axe. Be a glass cannon - light armour so you're fast and scoutey, but massive damage when you charge (leap attack etc.).

[Tweekinator]

I would say that you might want to take the Barbarian level somewhere other than first, though, in order to get the Ranger's skill points for the first-level x4.

Barbarians and rangers both get 4 skill points per level.

[kamikasei]

Barbarians and rangers both get 4 skill points per level.

No... rangers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/ranger.htm) get six.

[Tweekinator]

Oh, wow. Duh.

My excuse is that it's early here.

Yes, if you want to grab 6 + Int x4 skill points at first level take it as ranger.

[Person_Man]

1) What is the general fluff of the character?

2) What do you want it to be able to do?

3) Are you wedded to Barbarian/Ranger, or do you just want a tank?

4) What books are available to you?

[Tough_Tonka]

There's some info you should no before posting further responses.

1. He's making a third level character not a fourth level one.
2. He cannot be a barbarian, but I don't mind him multiclassing as a Barbarian
3. He has 2700 GP to spend on equipment, he can buy magical items but he can't spend more than 50% of his GP(1350) on one Item. You might give equipment suggestions as well.
4. He cannot play a Warforged character
5. Our group doesn't have the Complete warrior, Book of Nine Swords, or Tome of Battle.
We do have Heroes of Valor, Heroes of Battle, Eberron Guide, and several others, but those are the only books that I know have warrior type feats, besides the core books obvoiusly.
6. The party has a cleric 4, rogue 3/wizard 1 (preparing for Arcane Trickster), Psion 3 and a Sorcerer 4. Though the Psion and the Sorcerer are in a bad sitituation (wanted for man slaughter) and if they aren't careful they will end up dead like Raistlin's last cahracter.

[Matthew]

I would just dump the Barbarian idea and go full Ranger 3, follow the Ranged Combat Style and take Power Attack or whatever. No need to lock yourself into Two Weapon Fighting, but you could always take it as a normal Feat, along with Power Attack. What Attribute array have you got to work with? At Level 3, it may even be worth keeping a Shield handy.

[Person_Man]

Barbarian without Complete Warrior is pretty nerfed. But here are a couple of ideas.

Barbarian 4/Fighter 2/Frostrager (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040911a&page=3) 5
Use the Knock-Down (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/divineFeats.html) feat. Have a party spellcaster take Energy Substitution Cold, and dump Cold Fireballs in the middle of battle.

Urban Ranger (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedCoreClass.html#urban-ranger) 3/Dwarf Paragon (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedParagon.html#dwarf-paragon) 3/Deepwarden 2
Dump Dex, boost Con, get uber hit points and Con to AC. There's also a feat out there that let's you replace your Int bonus for your Dex bonus for Reflex saves. Urban Ranger gives you Urban Tracking and Endurance. Dwarf Paragon gives you the Skills you need to enter Deepwarden and a boost to Con. Deepwarden gives you Track and Con to AC.

A Simple Variant Ranger (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedCoreClass.html#simple-ranger) 1/Wolf Totem Barbarian (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedCoreClass.html#totem-barbarian) 2/Whatever X with Knock-Down would also be a good idea. Double fast movement, free Improved Trip.

Matthew's idea for strait Ranger is also a good one. I would add that someone should invest in the Spell Compendium, since it adds a lot to Rangers and Paladins.