Mythology vs. Mythology

[Kosmopolite]

Yeah, I was reading the Wizards' Duel thread, and it got me thinking; if the casts of any and all 'geek' mythologies clashed, what would come out more powerful?

Jean-Luc Picard vs. Charles Xavier, Count Dooku vs. Saruman, Willow Ufgood vs. Filius Flitwick.

(This isn't limited to characters played by the same actor. These are just varied examples.)

Seriously, the Force vs. Tolkien magic. Wars vs. Trek. X-Men vs. Jedi Knights. What's the most powerful mythology/character?


EDIT: Damn, wrong forum! Could someone move this, please?

[Innis Cabal]

well...Jean has a ship....with lasers......he wins

[Black Mage]

With Saruman's true power and the fact that he, and all the wizards in Tolkiens books, are essentially gods, I believe Saurman would stomp Dooku.
Jean Vs. Prof. X....are we talking just Jean on his own with a phaser, or him in his ship? Meh, doesn't matter, either way I say Prof. X wins, considering we've seen what he can do in the movies with stopping time and all that.

[Innis Cabal]

if Jean has his ship, which would only be fair since he is fighting mages and other magical people....he wins, he can blow up a planet at least at the surface level, so even if they survive the initial attack they are in a hellish wasteland devoid of life where the very air is more then likely super heated to the point that it would burn your lungs

[Belteshazzar]

The Zerg Overmind crushes them all in a wave of carapaced flesh and serrated claws

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Jean Vs. Prof. X....are we talking just Jean on his own with a phaser, or him in his ship? Meh, doesn't matter, either way I say Prof. X wins, considering we've seen what he can do in the movies with stopping time and all that.

He didn't stop time. What he did was stop every sentient being in the area from thinking except the specific individuals he went to retrieve. In effect, freezing time in the perceptions of the affected peoples. His mutant ability is Telepathy... and he's the strongest ever known.

To be honest, I think there's something inherently wrong in Prof X vs Jean Luc Picard... considering they were both portrayed by the same actor. Besides, they would have no reason to attack each other. They would both rather sit down and discuss things.

Now then... Jedi Vs Borg... THAT is a fight worth watching.

Trek vs Wars... would be an interesting fight. Say something like Federation vs Empire. Ultimately, Trek would win, because they have better engineers. Bounce a graviton particle beam off the main deflector dish... and all that (kudos for who gets the reference). Ion Cannon might shut down a Trek starship, but it wouldn't be able to punch through a Trek ship's shielding. Also, Warp speed beats Hyperdrive with an ugly stick. They can use micro-jumps of Warp speed to effect maneuverability far in excess of anything Wars can come up with.

Here are some interesting fights to check out:

Sarumon vs Obi Wan/Luke Skywalker

Jedi Council vs The Borg

Star Trek Federation vs Palpatine's Empire

Scarlet Witch vs Q (keep in mind that Scarlet Witch is possibly the most powerful mutant ever, even moreso than Jean Grey, as she can quite literally reshape reality to suit her needs, just like Q can. Would be interesting...)

[Ulzgoroth]

If you're actually pitting mythologies against each other as opposed to characters, it's really about who has the closest to really omnipotent 'omnipotent beings' more than anything else. It isn't Picard that Star Trek pushes in, it's Q. Star Wars, lacking god-equivalents (as far as I know), is steamrolled. The bosses behind Tolkien's wizards, the Valar, would be trying to escalate by getting Ilúvatar to take a direct hand.

...you probably meant to draw the line short of outright deities. I'm guessing.

[Annarrkkii]

I want to see Harry Potter vs. Trek. Or Star Wars. Just to see Daniel Radcliffe get stomped.

[starwoof]

The Zerg Overmind crushes them all in a wave of carapaced flesh and serrated claws
Pfft I doubt it. Ian McKellan just cloaks and takes him out with psi blades. Because he's a dark templar, you see.

[Innis Cabal]

on the treck v. wars thing....yes i get the song reference....but Star Treck dosnt have something that can blow up suns. not only that but the federation takes up a single quadrent, the Empire is a Galaxy spanning empire. Sorry but they might have better enginerring and the power of plot( the song and all that) but the Empire has a galaxy full of ships plus at least 2 dozen super weapons and virus's that would make the Federation cry

[Kosmopolite]

...you probably meant to draw the line short of outright deities. I'm guessing.

Looking at the way things are going, I'd say yeah.

I think that any single Jedi could probably beat any single (X-gene) mutant.

[AtomicKitKat]

Scarlet Witch is OP as hell. Stupid Day of M. X(

Overmind gets stomped by Kerrigan. Beauty, Brains, and Brutality, all in one package. :P

[Kosmopolite]

Here's a slightly different one, for any vampire fans we have in the audience:

Anne Rice's vampires vs. Laurell K. Hamilton's.

I'd say the latter, since they have a wider variety of powers, though the former have been shown to be much more resilient.

[Gralamin]

on the treck v. wars thing....yes i get the song reference....but Star Treck dosnt have something that can blow up suns. not only that but the federation takes up a single quadrent, the Empire is a Galaxy spanning empire. Sorry but they might have better enginerring and the power of plot( the song and all that) but the Empire has a galaxy full of ships plus at least 2 dozen super weapons and virus's that would make the Federation cry

Star Trek Generations: A mad scientist blows up suns by using tritium missiles.
Not to mention Q, or The Borg (You might pull off the super weapon once against them, then they would assimilate it, improve it, and mass produce it at extreme rates)

The Federation takes up part of a quarter of the galaxy because there is a balance of powers, The Empire has nothing to really oppose them.
Also No imperial can possibly aim, while the Federation can.

And as a final possibility, the Federation has Scotty. Scotty would see this as Kobayashi Maru, and beat it the same (If the force works, then Scotty could use formula's that only work on paper)

[Innis Cabal]

the fight isnt against the Star Treck Univerese, its the Federation against the Empire. And no the Federation does not take up a part of the Galaxy, they are in the Alpha Quadrent, and are not allowed to set up bases in other area's due to an argreement with the Dominion. And to the "they have Q" Star Wars have the jedi and thier Ghosts, the borg? Their are several orgainic speices in Star Wars Universe that makes the Speices look tame. And The borg can not assimlite a weapon if they are destroyed by it and there is no other borg to learn from it.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

the fight isnt against the Star Treck Univerese, its the Federation against the Empire. And no the Federation does not take up a part of the Galaxy, they are in the Alpha Quadrent, and are not allowed to set up bases in other area's due to an argreement with the Dominion. And to the "they have Q" Star Wars have the jedi and thier Ghosts, the borg? Their are several orgainic speices in Star Wars Universe that makes the Speices look tame. And The borg can not assimlite a weapon if they are destroyed by it and there is no other borg to learn from it.

If they are in the Alpha Quadrant, and not allowed to go outside of that due to treaties, then you have substantially proven his assessment that the Federation takes up a part of the galaxy, rather than disproven it.

And yes, I'm talking straight up Federation vs Empire.

What does the Empire have that can really affect Federation? Ion Cannon! Pink... bounces off of shielding. Same thing with Turbolasers. The Federation, on the other hand, is using Phasors, which make lasers look like flashlights in comparison. And let's not forget proton torpedos (let's not even get into the Quantom Torpedos, which not only can collapse a sun, but an entire Borg Cube).

So let's send hordes of Tie Fighters after 'em! Right... Gatling Phasors and much better targeting computers lock up and shoot 'em down in droves.Unlike Death Stars, there are no structural weaknesses.

So, let's look at a typical Super Star Destroyer vs the Enterprise which Jean Luk Picard pilots. Super Star Destroyer is like 10 times bigger than the Enterprise is, however it has only particle shielding (which won't even slow down a Phasor). It does, however, have LOTS of armor. The Enterprise, on the other hand, has shielding strong enough to negate any attack the Super Star Destroyer could concievabally throw at them. Hell, the Enterprise's shields could eat the Death Star's main weapon without significantly worrying about it.

Star Wars Empirial era has one significant disadvantage: It's more realisti. They've had multiple galactic 'civil' wars, reduced themselves to neo-barbarism multiple times, and lost a bunch of tech then had to re-research it multiple times. So they're actually at a lower tech level than Star Trek, which is a pie-in-the-sky idealist's society.

[Ulzgoroth]

On the other hand, the Federation strikes me as the sort of people whose ship computers could be hacked through the comm systems. And Star Wars, whatever else, has vastly superior computers...There are, what is it, three sentient machines in all federation space? The Empire packs them into the space inside C3PO's head. As a consumer product.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

On the other hand, the Federation strikes me as the sort of people whose ship computers could be hacked through the comm systems. And Star Wars, whatever else, has vastly superior computers...There are, what is it, three sentient machines in all federation space? The Empire packs them into the space inside C3PO's head. As a consumer product.

And yet they can't seem to be able to lock onto a target and hit it as easily as modern day's computers could...

[Innis Cabal]

their computers are hacked many times. And i find it a little cheesy that the star wars weapons dont even begin to touch the star treck ship but star treck weapons work just fine on star wars ships. And the Death Star's lazer not even touching the Enterprises shields...ok...oh and star wars has photon bombs as well. On the inaccuracy thing...its the power of plot, just like how red shirted ensigns always die, its going to happen.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

their computers are hacked many times. And i find it a little cheesy that the star wars weapons dont even begin to touch the star treck ship but star treck weapons work just fine on star wars ships. And the Death Star's lazer not even touching the Enterprises shields...ok...oh and star wars has photon bombs as well.

Star Trek has gone up against 'primitive' races using Ion or Turbolasers, and has laughed as the attacks bounced.

If you want to bring up the idea of bombs, Star Trek can simply transport explosives onto opponent's ships with impunity to blow them up.

[Innis Cabal]

ya...becuase the Empire is primitive with their faster then light travel...warp speed is so high tech they dont even have to move past the speed of light.

[serow]

On the Trek vs Wars issue:
There was a website (can't remember anymore), put up by this engineer guy who tried proving using current comparisons, that according to the events shown in the movies, whose weaponry is stronger.
According to him, Wars weaponry is typically much stronger than Trek weaponry. Wars hyperdrives are also significantly faster than Trek warp drives IIRC, becoz it takes 70 odd years to cross a quadrant while only about 2 weeks from the Outer Rim to the Inner Core. Something like that.

[Innis Cabal]

thank you Serow...

[Krellen]

Jean-Luc Picard vs. Charles Xavier, Count Dooku vs. Saruman, Willow Ufgood vs. Filius Flitwick.
Xavier's so cool, he'd win the Dooku/Saruman and Willow/Flitwick fights too, in the process of kicking Picard's ass.

And guys? Star Trek vs. Star Wars is so every-other-forum-on-the-Internet.

[Cybren]

stardestroyer.net
Basically, he calculates the scale of energy used in star wars weapons is pretty much enough to vaporize any ship.


What you really have to remember is that the federation uses age of sail naval tactics, whereas star wars is WW2 era naval tactics. Also the empire has a much greater industrial capacity than the federation.

[The_Snark]

Firstly, I'd like to point out the innate lunacy in comparing the strength of a phaser against that of Star Wars's energy shields. You can probably tell what's stronger than what simply by looking at how many shots it takes to wipe out ships, but it's not really possible to say how much.

But this is a cross-over, so we'll ignore that. Contesting Sheenkey's points, because I like the Empire...


So let's send hordes of Tie Fighters after 'em! Right... Gatling Phasors and much better targeting computers lock up and shoot 'em down in droves.Unlike Death Stars, there are no structural weaknesses.

Never mind, not contesting this one. But that's what Tie Fighters are for, distraction. If they can make the ship's captain take the time to say, "Shoot those down," they've done their job.


So, let's look at a typical Super Star Destroyer vs the Enterprise which Jean Luk Picard pilots. Super Star Destroyer is like 10 times bigger than the Enterprise is, however it has only particle shielding (which won't even slow down a Phasor). It does, however, have LOTS of armor. The Enterprise, on the other hand, has shielding strong enough to negate any attack the Super Star Destroyer could concievabally throw at them. Hell, the Enterprise's shields could eat the Death Star's main weapon without significantly worrying about it.

The Destroyers have energy shielding, too. Being largely unfamiliar with Star Trek, I'm not too sure on the Enterprise's shields, but I doubt they'd absorb a weapon that can destroy a planet in in under a second. I will grant, however, that the Enterprise could probably take out a Super Star Destroyer.

Of course, if you give Star Trek Picard, it's only fair to stick Vader on the Star Destroyer, and that changes things.


Star Wars Empirial era has one significant disadvantage: It's more realisti. They've had multiple galactic 'civil' wars, reduced themselves to neo-barbarism multiple times, and lost a bunch of tech then had to re-research it multiple times. So they're actually at a lower tech level than Star Trek, which is a pie-in-the-sky idealist's society.

True, possibly. But the Empire has one major advantage: infrastructure. They've got pretty much the known galaxy fueling their war machine. Given even a little time, which the Imperial Fleet could easily supply through sheer mass, they can work things up, especially with a visible enemy to quell protests about the use of resources. And of course, given one Federation casualty or captured ship, they can start some reverse-engineering.


And of course, as someone else pointed out, if you gave Star Trek the Borg and all those other super-powerful beings and species from different episodes, you'd have to even the scale by giving the Star Wars people their expanded universe.

Oh, yeah...

Also No imperial can possibly aim, while the Federation can.

Narrative forces at work here, my friend. Star Wars is a happy-go-lucky space opera. Against the main characters, stormtroopers become incompentent and the ship's captain loses track of a ship because they apparently can't be bothered to send out fighters to look. Against non-main character targets, stormtroopers are actually rather deadly elite soldiers, TIE fighters are lethally fast and numerous, and Star Destroyer captains are at least compentent.

[Parasocrates]

Eh, Warhammer 40,000 takes the cake. They obliterate planets on a regular basis in that universe, and the Emperor of Mankind and the "Gods" of Chaos have powers that would put Sauron to shame. Unfortunately, there's probably only a small number of people reading this post who have any clear idea what I'm talking about.

[Innis Cabal]

40k is just silly...The empire against just the Tau would be horrible...and i do know what your talking about...Nurgle would just wreck everyone...immune to disease? NOT ANYMORE

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I'd still love to see Kerrigan, Queen of Blades vs Yoda...

[Krellen]

I'd still love to see Kerrigan, Queen of Blades vs Yoda...
Lame HappyFunBall(tm) Yoda, or awesome Wise Jedi Master Yoda?

[The_Snark]

They're the same thing. Only after twenty years alone in a swamp, Awesome Wise Master Yoda decides that he's going to feign being just another local swamp gnome.

That's a good match, though.

Eh, Warhammer... While we're at it, we might as well bring the Lovecraft mythos into it. In general, we ought to leave the god-like entities out of our speculations.

[JaronK]

But guys, this has already been done. Turns out Mr. Rodgers in a Bloodstained Sweater can beat them all.

JaronK

[Belteshazzar]

Hmm while Star Trek Humans (Federation) Would lose to Star Wars (because while it looks shinier Trek's only tech advantage is in the Transporter) Terrans from Starcraft could probably rip through any of the ground troops from Star Wars. The average Marine Fires 50 cal depleted uranium spikes at an unholy rate of fire. Enough of them can easily take on low flying spacecraft.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

Star Wars is tricky. Depending on the writer in question, a single Terran troop might be able to take out a legion of Jedis or a single Jedi might be able to take out a legion of marines. I prefer to believe the latter.

But if we're discounting Force-users, though that's the single most defining aspect of Star Wars, then I guess the Terrans would win in any situation that doesn't involve mechs. A squad of AT's could cause some horrifying damage.

[The_Snark]

Or, you know. Any situation that didn't involve orbital bombardment. The Star Wars folks have an unbeatable air advantage there.

And unless Mr. Rogers counts as a movie/show/game/book setting, I think he's disqualified from this one.

[Cybren]

I imagine it would be fairly trivial to BDZ Earth considering how horrible the federation is at protecting it.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

Hmm, you have a point Snark. Star Wars vehicles are pretty powerful, especially compared to Terran craft. So what if their Stormtroopers have lousy aim? Their TIEs can run crazy quick and totally lay waste to an entire reinforcement line, each. And god forbid we start including the Incom line from the Rebels.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Star Wars is tricky. Depending on the writer in question, a single Terran troop might be able to take out a legion of Jedis or a single Jedi might be able to take out a legion of marines. I prefer to believe the latter.

But if we're discounting Force-users, though that's the single most defining aspect of Star Wars, then I guess the Terrans would win in any situation that doesn't involve mechs. A squad of AT's could cause some horrifying damage.

Slugthrowers HURT Jedi. You have a plasma bottle on a stick. They can bounce back energy weapons, no problem. Return to sender, postage due. Do that with a slug, and you've got now molten metal screaming at you at supermach speeds. Ouch. Smart Jedi uses Speed Burst to get the flock out of there.

[kpenguin]

Jedi can stock physical objects with the force, I believe. While using a lightsaber to counter energy weapons takes finesse and reflexes, a competent force user can block kinetic weapons no problem.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

Lightsabers don't quite work that way. They're basically a solidified energy version of the Force. They ricochet blaster fire because energy of all forms rebounds off of a lightsaber. I can't say that a lightsaber would cannonically bounce a bullet back, evaporate it, or what, but there's a rather good chance that it could do any of that.

And if the Jedi Knight games are to be believed, a lightsaber most certainly does bounce bullets. So in that continuity (which is mostly accepted as cannon, I believe) those poor Terran marines would be shooting themselves with their own guns.

[Cybren]

Slugthrowers HURT Jedi. You have a plasma bottle on a stick. They can bounce back energy weapons, no problem. Return to sender, postage due. Do that with a slug, and you've got now molten metal screaming at you at supermach speeds. Ouch. Smart Jedi uses Speed Burst to get the flock out of there.

incoporating all the expanded universe material from star wars the jedi are basically gods because EU writers are bad at their job and resort to characterless marystu vehicles that drive the plot with their utility belts powerful force force powers

[Viscount Einstrauss]

They aren't Marty Stu's if there's a whole galaxy filled with them. Crazy as it is, powers that high then become normal and acceptable. Still, it does fluctuate wildly from writer to writer in Star Wars. I personally prefer a middle-ground take. Even then, though, they're pretty much going to mess up any "normal people" as they aren't made for interacting with a bunch of people who can't break plenty of physical laws on a whim.

[Turcano]

Star Trek Federation vs Palpatine's Empire
Someone already covered this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNxhrPaaCA4); it was either a stalemate or an Imperial victory, depending on how you look at it.

[Artemician]

I'll have to go with the Empire here for the Trek/Wars argument. You may have an indestructible ship, but its only a matter of time before those Stormtroopers managed to board or you're ensnared in a tractor beam. Then the Adeptus Mechanicus sorry wrong empire. Then the engineers will take reverse-engineer your ship, while a droid tortures you to find out how it works.

And as for God-like beings.... NOTHING beats Suzumiya Haruhi.

[Dhavaer]

The Destroyers have energy shielding, too. Being largely unfamiliar with Star Trek, I'm not too sure on the Enterprise's shields, but I doubt they'd absorb a weapon that can destroy a planet in in under a second. I will grant, however, that the Enterprise could probably take out a Super Star Destroyer.

Not really. Watch what happens when they try to blow up an asteroid. Enterprise needs to use almost every missile on the ship to take out one, Star Destroyer just fires a light cannon and vaporises it. It's two completely different power scales.


I recommend we destroy the asteroid. It would take almost all our photon torpedoes, but it would preclude any possibility of the Pegasus falling into Romulan hands.


Hmm while Star Trek Humans (Federation) Would lose to Star Wars (because while it looks shinier Trek's only tech advantage is in the Transporter) Terrans from Starcraft could probably rip through any of the ground troops from Star Wars. The average Marine Fires 50 cal depleted uranium spikes at an unholy rate of fire.

Considering how good Stormtrooper armour is, Marine guns quite feasibly would do very little. You do, after all, need blasters to get through Stormtrooper armour, and a blaster is closer in output to a grenade launcher than a gun. Look at what they do to masonry when they miss.

[Wolf53226]

And one Neo in the matrix will rule them all!

[Illiterate Scribe]

Isn't uncyclopedia powered by the Storm Troopers, who will always miss, firing at Federation Redshirts, who will always be hit by any shot?

[kellandros]

And this is how the X-men/Star Trek the Next Generation novel Planet X came to be created. With Worf introducing Wolverine to his calesthinics programs, Storm hitting on Picard, and even more.

All because someone wants to set up a bet between the Watcher and Q.

-------------
Oh, and imagine what happens when the Borg manage to assimilate one Jedi. They suddenly have access to his training, memory, and abilities. Becoming one with the Force suddenly has a lot less free will involved...

[kamikasei]

Isn't uncyclopedia powered by the Federation Redshirts, who will always be hit by any shot, firing at Storm Troopers, who will always miss?

Since that would just result in the Redshirts (who are competent marksmen) hitting the Stormtroopers (who are not magically phaser-proof), it wouldn't generate much power. :smalltongue:

(Hint: check your subject/object there.)

[Tweekinator]

The site comparing the two is http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/FiveMinutes.html

[Illiterate Scribe]

Since that would just result in the Redshirts (who are competent marksmen) hitting the Stormtroopers (who are not magically phaser-proof), it wouldn't generate much power. :smalltongue:

(Hint: check your subject/object there.)

Yes; we would have to revert to the good old toast/cat scenario there; thanks!

[Dhavaer]

Oh, and imagine what happens when the Borg manage to assimilate one Jedi. They suddenly have access to his training, memory, and abilities. Becoming one with the Force suddenly has a lot less free will involved...

I think that less a 'when' than an 'if'. Remember, Borg are slow and not too bright. Jedi are fast, prescient and have lightsabres. They can also use their powers to **** around with the Borgs' mech parts.

[Dan_Hemmens]

Dr Manhattan owns them all.

As for Wars versus Trek, Trek has it, because they're allowed to make up new laws of physics to get them out of problems.

[Hurlbut]

Considering how good Stormtrooper armour is, Marine guns quite feasibly would do very little. You do, after all, need blasters to get through Stormtrooper armour, and a blaster is closer in output to a grenade launcher than a gun. Look at what they do to masonry when they miss.
Actually no, it can be either way.

You have to bear in mind that the stormtrooper armour was specifically designed with energy weapons in forethought. So we don't know how well it perform against slug throwers.

[Belteshazzar]

Besides keep in mind that armor designed to stop energy weapons (white is a good reflector of light energy) did jack against the minor kinetic force of a few dropped 20 lb rocks heck even their walker was smashed by a tree trunk trap. Of course the Empire would win any prolonged battle because unlike terrans they control an entire galaxy as opposed to a few planets but the terrans could survive provided they played a game of hit and run. Considering that they design all base structure to be capable of deep space flight they could keep on the move even though they would be much slower.

[daggaz]

Besides keep in mind that armor designed to stop energy weapons (white is a good reflector of light energy)

Heh. Heheheheheh. It's only "white" because it reflects an equal amount wavelengths across the visible light spectrum. White flowers, viewed under UV lenses, have blazing bright landing patterns emboldened on the petals to draw in passing bees. That stormtrooper armor could look as black as space itself, when viewed on the same wavelength as say, a 100MW pulse X-ray laser canon.

As it is, there is no pysical substance (read: matter) that reflects all energy equally as well.

[MeklorIlavator]

In the Trek vs. Wars issue, there is one glaring problem: Physics.
The Empire's weaponry is ridiculous in the amount of power it harnesses, it should do far less. Remember, the movies are in the same genre as the pulp fiction heroes of the 20's, so they all have the power of plot.

Meanwhile, Star Treks weaponry, if we assume similar level of physics also probably breaks quite a few rules, but less of them, and to a lesser extent, than Star Wars. And their weaponry would be arguably more powerful, as phazors>lazers, and Trek torpedoes>war torpedoes. On the note of torpedoes, treks versions use antimatter explosion, while War's torpedoes are pretty much glorified conventional explosives.

The areas that Star Wars has the advantage, land armies, movement, and numbers, are largely irrelevant for a couple of reasons. Firstly, their armies, while superior to everything but the borg and the dominion, can only really be useful if the space battle succeeds, and the orbital defenses have a hole where you can send landing ships in. Before those two steps are taken care of, your ships are pretty screwed, as a phazor or Photon torpedoes will do significant damage. Secondly, though their interstellar movement is better, their slower-than-light drives are junk. In fact, they move slowly enough that the Star Trek strategy might be to stay out of the short range(those ships get really close before they start firing) and pound them with their longer range weaponry. The main reason torpedoes are used at a closer range throughout the series is that the ships they are facing are very maneuverable and can usually evade a long distance shot, but the Star Wars ships aren't graced with speed or maneuverability. Thirdly, numbers is a inefficient way to win, and superior firepower can wear down an offensive very effectively, taking out the more adventurous officers so that the rest are encouraged to be cautious, slowing any offensive down to a stand still.

Also, the Empire's attack would undoubtedly unite the Alpha quadrant in much the same way the attacks of the dominion did. This brings the Romulans and Klingons on the Federations side, which bring cloaking devices. This means that the First Imperial Fleet that attacks gets wiped out when the Romulans use experimental tech that allows them to fire while cloaked. The Empire has no answer to this, as they have no experience with cloaking devices as powerful as the Romulans ones.
(note, this is from the expanded universe of Star Trek, but we are factoring in the Star Wars EU, so it is fair).

[The_Snark]

The Empire's weaponry is ridiculous in the amount of power it harnesses, it should do far less.

Meanwhile, Star Treks weaponry, if we assume similar level of physics also probably breaks quite a few rules, but less of them, and to a lesser extent, than Star Wars. And their weaponry would be arguably more powerful, as phazors>lazers, and Trek torpedoes>war torpedoes. On the note of torpedoes, treks versions use antimatter explosion, while War's torpedoes are pretty much glorified conventional explosives.

Wait... Star Wars weaponry is too powerful, but Star Trek's is still better? Torpedos, granted, although as I've said I'm not very familiar with Star Wars technology.


The areas that Star Wars has the advantage, land armies, movement, and numbers, are largely irrelevant for a couple of reasons. Firstly, their armies, while superior to everything but the borg and the dominion, can only really be useful if the space battle succeeds, and the orbital defenses have a hole where you can send landing ships in. Before those two steps are taken care of, your ships are pretty screwed, as a phazor or Photon torpedoes will do significant damage. Secondly, though their interstellar movement is better, their slower-than-light drives are junk. In fact, they move slowly enough that the Star Trek strategy might be to stay out of the short range(those ships get really close before they start firing) and pound them with their longer range weaponry. The main reason torpedoes are used at a closer range throughout the series is that the ships they are facing are very maneuverable and can usually evade a long distance shot, but the Star Wars ships aren't graced with speed or maneuverability. Thirdly, numbers is a inefficient way to win, and superior firepower can wear down an offensive very effectively, taking out the more adventurous officers so that the rest are encouraged to be cautious, slowing any offensive down to a stand still.

True, but attrition's an effective measure anyway. And while the Trek ships are probably more maneuverable (the bigger ones, at least), the Empire has tractor beams. They're capable of locking onto things as small as a fighter, and there's not a whole lot you can do about it.


Also, the Empire's attack would undoubtedly unite the Alpha quadrant in much the same way the attacks of the dominion did. This brings the Romulans and Klingons on the Federations side, which bring cloaking devices. This means that the First Imperial Fleet that attacks gets wiped out when the Romulans use experimental tech that allows them to fire while cloaked. The Empire has no answer to this, as they have no experience with cloaking devices as powerful as the Romulans ones.
(note, this is from the expanded universe of Star Trek, but we are factoring in the Star Wars EU, so it is fair).

We haven't actually factored in anything from the Star Wars EU yet. So far, I think we've stuck to the Empire, and only the original trilogy at that.

[Cybren]

Actually no, it can be either way.

You have to bear in mind that the stormtrooper armour was specifically designed with energy weapons in forethought. So we don't know how well it perform against slug throwers.

considering the fight on Endor (or its moon, as I don't think there was ever a canon clarification of what the statement "forest moon of endor" meant), and tantive IV, storm trooper armor stinks on ice

[Kosmopolite]

Well, my slight contribution to this conversation can be the following quote from Wookipedia:



The Forest Moon of Endor (also known as Endor and the Sanctuary Moon) was a small forested moon (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Moon) orbiting the gas giant (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Gas_giant) planet (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Planet) of Endor (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Endor_%28planet%29). The forest moon is notable for being the native home (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Homeworld) of the Ewoks (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Ewok), and being the location of the last major battle in the Galactic Civil War (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Galactic_Civil_War), which would result in the downfall of the Empire and the death of the Emperor (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Emperor). Due to its proximity to the inhospitable Unknown Regions (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Unknown_Regions), Endor was a relatively quiet planetoid until the latter event.

[MeklorIlavator]

Wait... Star Wars weaponry is too powerful, but Star Trek's is still better? Torpedos, granted, although as I've said I'm not very familiar with Star Wars technology.

I was remaking mainly on the fact that Star wars weaponry is to powerful for its tech level. Kinda like the computers in the earlier Superman Comics. Those things were built on with 1950's technology, but make our computers look like junk(same with Batman's, too). Star trek's weapons are much more in line with what their technology could probably handle.

Also, while proton torpedoes (those in star wars) are comparable to contemporary missiles, photon torpedoes(those in star trek) are more comparable to nukes in term of raw power(remember Energy=Mass*(th speed of light)^2?, nukes release a small part of an atoms mass into that equation. Antimatter converts the entire mass of an object into energy, and torpedoes use very massive atoms.)

And in regards to fighter, phazors have variable thickness, so the beam can cover a larger area than it is usually seen doing, thus it can destroy waves of fighters at the same time.



True, but attrition's an effective measure anyway. And while the Trek ships are probably more maneuverable (the bigger ones, at least), the Empire has tractor beams. They're capable of locking onto things as small as a fighter, and there's not a whole lot you can do about it.

I should be noted that tractor beams have 4 main weaknesses, range (so star fleet stays away from them), are only located around docking bays ( stay away from the undersides of ships), power ( to pull in a ship you need very powerful tractor beams, otherwise you pretty much are pulled along, instead of the other ship because it becomes a match between your engines and theirs, and if too much strain is placed on the beam, it breaks), and the fact that it pulls things toward you. Things, like photon torpedoes placed in to the path of the beam. You then must either disable the beam or let the tractor beam pull the torpedoes right up next to it, at which point the torpedo explodes, taking out the beam generator and a good part of your ship.



We haven't actually factored in anything from the Star Wars EU yet. So far, I think we've stuck to the Empire, and only the original trilogy at that.
Actually, in discussing the jedi they factored in almost nothing but EU, but even with out the advanced tech, Romulan warbirds easily take on Star destroyers because of the surprise factor.

[kamikasei]

Antimatter converts the entire mass of an object into energy, and torpedoes use very massive atoms.

Actually, they use close to the lightest atoms there are - deuterium and anti-deuterium, an isotope of hydrogen.

[Emperor Tippy]

Melkor, remember that the Empire in SW is over 25,000 years more advanced than the federation is in SF.

Read this site: http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/...veMinutes.html (http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/FiveMinutes.html) It answers all of your questions and more.

[The_Snark]

I should be noted that tractor beams have 4 main weaknesses, range (so star fleet stays away from them), are only located around docking bays ( stay away from the undersides of ships), power ( to pull in a ship you need very powerful tractor beams, otherwise you pretty much are pulled along, instead of the other ship because it becomes a match between your engines and theirs, and if too much strain is placed on the beam, it breaks), and the fact that it pulls things toward you. Things, like photon torpedoes placed in to the path of the beam. You then must either disable the beam or let the tractor beam pull the torpedoes right up next to it, at which point the torpedo explodes, taking out the beam generator and a good part of your ship.

They're powerful enough that even if they can't pull the other ship in, they'll force it to devote engine power to prevent moving in. As to location, that just means the Destroyer has to roll onto its side to use them. Their range can be pretty good, too—the Death Star, for example, was able to pick up the Millenium Falcon before their scanners even told them what it was. They don't win the fight, but they help reduce the enemy's mobility.

Also, I'm not sure where the idea that Star Destroyers were immensely slow and ponderous came from, now that I think about it. It isn't as though there's air resistance in space, and they have a lot more room for engines and power generation. The Destroyers keep catching up to the Falcon in the movies, without much of a problem. Admittedly, their turn rate probably isn't the best, but if you're going around them, you're exposing yourself to a broadside anyway.


Actually, in discussing the jedi they factored in almost nothing but EU, but even with out the advanced tech, Romulan warbirds easily take on Star destroyers because of the surprise factor.

Eh, I haven't been factoring in the Jedi at all, just the Empire. If we do, it changes a little bit, because now we have fighter pilots with superhuman reflexes and generals who can see the future.

[Turcano]

I was remaking mainly on the fact that Star wars weaponry is to powerful for its tech level. Kinda like the computers in the earlier Superman Comics. Those things were built on with 1950's technology, but make our computers look like junk(same with Batman's, too). Star trek's weapons are much more in line with what their technology could probably handle.

What are you talking about? Star Wars takes place in a setting where hyperdrive technology (which puts warp drives to shame) has been around for 25 millennia. By contrast, the original Star Trek series is set less than 300 years from now. That's a big difference in terms of technological development.

[Hurlbut]

considering the fight on Endor (or its moon, as I don't think there was ever a canon clarification of what the statement "forest moon of endor" meant), and tantive IV, storm trooper armor stinks on ice

The best explanation for the armor is that it helps to reduce the effectiveness of a glancing blaster shot as opposed to a squared on hit. Like how the modern body armor reduced the effectiveness of sharpnel and pistol rounds but not high powered rifle/machine gun rounds.

[Dhavaer]

Actually no, it can be either way.

You have to bear in mind that the stormtrooper armour was specifically designed with energy weapons in forethought. So we don't know how well it perform against slug throwers.

The only incident of a Stormtrooper deing hit by a physical weapon, apart from having rocks dropped on their heads by ewoks (which makes armour pointless; a rock that size dropped on your head will kill you regardless of what kind of helmet you have) was unfortunately in the EU, when a droid through a spear at a stormie hard enough to pick him up and slam him against a wall. His armour was undamaged.


I was remaking mainly on the fact that Star wars weaponry is to powerful for its tech level. Kinda like the computers in the earlier Superman Comics. Those things were built on with 1950's technology, but make our computers look like junk(same with Batman's, too). Star trek's weapons are much more in line with what their technology could probably handle.

The tech level is, as other people have noted, tens of thousands of years beyond ours. If you want to look at 'too powerful' tech, go look at the Culture or the Xeelee.


Also, while proton torpedoes (those in star wars) are comparable to contemporary missiles, photon torpedoes(those in star trek) are more comparable to nukes in term of raw power(remember Energy=Mass*(th speed of light)^2?, nukes release a small part of an atoms mass into that equation. Antimatter converts the entire mass of an object into energy, and torpedoes use very massive atoms.)

Photon torpedoes, as I pointed out, are far weaker than a Star Destroyer's light cannon.


And in regards to fighter, phazors have variable thickness, so the beam can cover a larger area than it is usually seen doing, thus it can destroy waves of fighters at the same time.

It would first have to be capable of doing enough damage to bypass their shields, and Wars shields are much harder to bypass, particularly with energy weapons, because they have to be overwhelmed instead of chipped away.


Romulan warbirds easily take on Star destroyers because of the surprise factor.

Again, they simply don't have the power output to threaten a Star Destroyer.

[I_Got_This_Name]

While, yes, massive atoms is an error, we don't care about mass/atom; we care about mass, total.

Also, even a tiny bit of mass conversion gives a lot of energy. 1 Kg is 8.9x10^16 joules; a megaton of TNT is 4.184x10^15 joules, so we're looking at about a 20 megaton yield for 500 grams of antimatter (500g antimatter neutralizes with 500g matter to convert a kilogram into energy). That's about 1000 Little Boys.

Of course, the containment stuff for the antimatter probably has some pretty substantial mass compared to the antimatter; otherwise, this'd be perfectly viable for a shoulder-launched warhead (a bazooka round masses in at under two kilos; considering engines, this'd be a bit heavier, though). Still, even if you just assume 1 kilo of matter converted by a torpedo, you're looking at doing some pretty nasty damage to a spaceship.

Also, a Star Destroyer being able to blow up an asteroid easily can work one of two ways:
1) Small asteroid
2) Dramatic Imperative

If 1) is true, then you can't really compare energy outputs by the effort to destroy an asteroid. If you give them that kind of power because they got it for Dramatic Imperative, then they'll end up incompetant.

That said, the Empire's industrial mass will likely crush the Federation. It'll be close, but I'd look at World War 2: Long, drawn out, brutal fighting, and, in the end, the side with the most industry won.

Starcraft vs either of the other two:
Terrans vs Federation: The Federation has a huge, ridiculous empire compared to the Terrans, and is a clean, shining future. The Terrans are struggling to make a living on a scattered string of worlds; their armies run on quite a large part of spirit. The only way the Terrans can win this is if the Federation doesn't pay them much attention, or if they manage to convince the Protoss and Zerg to help them (see: United Earth Directorate).

Protoss vs Federation: Now, this is an interesting one. The Protoss have superior intelligence, since they're able to get Observers everywhere, and are superior in personal combat (no redshirt ever compared to a Marine in full armor, and a Zealot can kill Marines easily). That said, the Protoss and Terrans are mutually a threat (admittedly, though, the Protoss are busy with the Zerg before SC, and, after SC, have been beaten to near-oblivion), and the Protoss are too busy looking at the past to be able to properly fight this war. The Protoss might be able to win if they put the kind of force into beating the Federation as they did on the Zerg, pre-SC; or if they were able to turn it into a ground war by slipping a Probe (either on a shuttle, or called by an Arbiter) past any given planet's defenses; you can't use orbital bombardment on your own inhabited worlds very well, and the Protoss can beat anything the Federation throws at them on the ground; the Protoss would also be theoretically able to take the Federation through strategic use of Dark Archons (the Enterprise isn't much of a threat mind-controlled).

Zerg vs Federation: The Zerg are perfectly adapted to taking out the Federation, assuming they get the advantage of surprise. They infected the Chau Sara and Mar Sara colonies in SC without being noticed (possibly through means other than their standard transports; there's little reason why they can't infect Federation worlds. Enough Scourge can bring down any ship (a Battlecruiser can survive a direct hit with a low-yield tactical nuke, barely; five scourge getting through its defenses will bring it down), and the Zerg can make enough Scourge, even to bring down the Enterprise. Plus, of course, if they get a hull breach, they can swarm the halls with Zerglings. They, additionally, have productive capacity on par with the Federation's, as they had conquered a huge number of worlds on their way to the Protoss. Further, they managed to bluff the Confederacy into thinking that they were non-sentient; there's little reason why they can't infiltrate the Federation with the same bluff. Finally, they came out on top, post-SC.

Terrans vs Empire:
The comparison here is even more lopsided than Terrans vs Federation. The Terrans will never amount to more than terrorism against the Empire, unless they join the Rebellion. They may be able to surprise the Empire with their Wraiths being mounted with Cloaking devices, once. (edit: I would hold, however, that a Marine's gun, which penetrates tank plating, should be able to hurt through any form of body armor; even if this means that the KE transfer from a dead-on shot converts to blunt trauma, that's something. Also, there's no way armor as thin as the Stormtroopers' is insulated; a Firebat that manages to get to them on a Stimpack charge should be able to toast them)

Terrans vs (either) Republic:
See above, except now SW has Jedi. The only counter the Terrans have is getting more Ghosts to add their own supernatural power. There is a chance that the Old Republic would be weaker, navally, than the Empire; the New Republic, having just been through a costly war, might also be. This is not significant enough to matter to the Terrans.

Protoss vs Empire:
Both sides are able to render planets uninhabitable from orbit; technologically, it's impossible to say who's better. However, every protoss warrior is psionic, and their (melee) weaponry is focused psionic energy. Assuming Psionics-Force transparency, this is an army with lightsabers vs an army several times their size of stormtroopers, and we've all seen how that plays out. In ground combat, at least. In space combat, the advantage likely goes to the Empire, where they're less individually outmatched, so their superior numbers are actually useful. However, the Protoss may be able to win through superior intelligence and mobility; Observers go everywhere, and dimensional Recall turns any lone Arbiter into potentially half the fleet, allowing the Protoss to force the Empire to spread thin, then hit them hard where they're the thinnest, and chip away at their fleets. Likewise, a string of Observers would be able to plot a course for a Shuttle (or Arbiter) to come through and create a ground war.

Protoss vs either Republic:
Stormtroopers were (IIRC) a step above ordinary Republic troops; given that, it seems that the most reliable opponents for the Protoss are the Jedi. A Dark Templar should be able to cut a Jedi in half in a single stroke, and, given that other psychics can't detect them reliably, should be able to sneak up on a force-user as well. Once again, the Protoss win very, very hard on the ground. Barring that, however, the Old Republic beats them through superior industry in space (same tactics as against the Empire apply). The New Republic, depending on how well it's recovered, is in bad enough shape that the Protoss might have a chance to land Probes on key worlds, warp in bases, and turn it into a series of ground wars, chipping away at Republican industry until they're able to mount an orbital attack on Coruscant.

The Protoss, however, would need a very creative Executor to beat the Empire or Republic. In a straight fight, they lose.

Zerg vs Empire:
The Zerg are outclassed, industrially, by the Empire. Their victory tactic here is the same as against the Federation and the one they used on the Confederacy: subtly infiltrate worlds, infiltrate their research labs through feigned non-sapience, then attack. The Empire, however, has no compunctions against using a BDZ on a Zerg-infected world, once they figure out what's going on. If Psionics-Force transparency holds, they'll be gunning straight for Vader and the Emperor; this requires pretty strong transparency, though; I wouldn't have it hold that strongly. Once again, they shoot down ships through lots and lots of Scourge.

Zerg vs Republic: Same space battles; same land battles where Jedi are not involved. A single Jedi would be able to cut through Zerglings like Stormtroopers, and probably bring down an Ultralisk toe-to-toe. Once they have some people infested, though, they'll likely be able to kill Jedi easily; Infested Terrans can knock down a bunker with a direct hit, and most Jedi aren't as tough as bunkers. Might take two, one to distract the Jedi and the other to blow up, but that's done. Then, of course, infested Jedi (assuming they're able to get any) would just be mean.

Now, what might be interesting: How do the Core and Arm fit in to this picture? I mean, a Jedi might have a bit of trouble blocking a D-Gun, but how about the other stuff? How many AT-ATs does it take to bring down a Krogoth?

Edit to add: Also, does any of this change if we put Muad'dib in command of any of them? How about if he was fighting something and the space battles were hand-waved as not interesting, so he was able to turn it into a ground battle between his Fremen and whatever (Redshirts, Storm Troopers, Marines, whatever)

[Emperor Tippy]

The Empire uses Base Delta Zero on any planet that refuses to be pacified. 3 Star Destroyers are sufficient to turn an entire planet to slag with no one escaping.

The Empire has around 25,000 of the things, or more.

They have gone so far as to transport every ocean from a planet to another planet.


The Empire would utterly destroy everything you have thrown them against in about a day.

For a Tech comparison, remember that hypersapce has been around 25,000+ years and even the weakest Hyperspace is far faster then the federations subspace communication array.

[Dhavaer]

Also, a Star Destroyer being able to blow up an asteroid easily can work one of two ways:
1) Small asteroid
2) Dramatic Imperative

If 1) is true, then you can't really compare energy outputs by the effort to destroy an asteroid. If you give them that kind of power because they got it for Dramatic Imperative, then they'll end up incompetant.

The asteroids vapourised (not blown up) were from 50 - 80m in diameter, and dramatic imperative is not a valid arguement for vs. scenarios.

[I_Got_This_Name]

The asteroids vapourised (not blown up) were from 50 - 80m in diameter, and dramatic imperative is not a valid arguement for vs. scenarios.

Alright then, yes, Star Destroyers outclass anything the Federation can throw.

The point I was making regarding Dramatic Imperative was that they may only be able to do so when such is plot-critical, and that, if they've got plot powers being deployed, they have plot weeknesses: they're incompetent. Assuming they can do this in non-plot situations, they outclass the Federation.

I think the Craft vs Wars tactics I posted have a chance of working, though.

[MeklorIlavator]

What are you talking about? Star Wars takes place in a setting where hyperdrive technology (which puts warp drives to shame) has been around for 25 millennia. By contrast, the original Star Trek series is set less than 300 years from now. That's a big difference in terms of technological development.

I'm not refering to time in existance, instead I am refering to the limits that a technology can go, and how Star wars seems to do this the worst. There is a certain point where no matter how advanced you are, you can't go futher with the technology. A good example would be computers, in this case refering to the fact that with current methods, their is a build in limit to how fast you can go, because electricity has a fixed speed and the fact that you need a certain numer of silicon atoms to create a working computer. Now, this could be gotten around by using changing what transmits the data or by using new materials, but at that point it is not silicon technology any more, and new limits are in place. Though Star wars has been around for a long time, technology has progressed slowly along realitivly stable lines, while Star Trek has progressed faster and along several lines. One possiblity for this is the prevalance of previous advanced cicilizations and the fact that there are more frequent wars in the the milky way with several different goverments than in the Star Wars galaxy with its long lasting Old republic that kept the peace in the galaxy. War is one of the greatest forces of innovation in our world, and this is reflected on the apparant increase in innovation after the republic fell and during the later periods. for example, proton torpedoes are in evidence thousands of years befor the movies, and a superior version was not completed until the youzen vong invasion.


My previous analogy was that Superman's and Batman's computers in the 1950's had capablities which exceed our current understanding of computer science, and definatly exceeded the vacuum tubes highest levels of functioning, much like Star wars usually exceeds the limits of technology.

And Warp drives have 1 redeeming factor, they are better for "short hops", like the picard maneuver, which hyperdrives can't do, possibly due to their speed. Still, there have been few advancements in hyperdrive technology, and the Milenium Falcon's .5 hyperdrive is only possible throught extensive and destablilizing modifications, and there is no apparant reasearch into improving the speed of hyperdrives.

[Emperor Tippy]

Alright then, yes, Star Destroyers outclass anything the Federation can throw.
Yep.


The point I was making regarding Dramatic Imperative was that they may only be able to do so when such is plot-critical, and that, if they've got plot powers being deployed, they have plot weeknesses: they're incompetent. Assuming they can do this in non-plot situations, they outclass the Federation.
Not really. Based on all available data the lower end power of an ISD's lasers is in the multiple megaton range and their heavy lasers are in the multi gigaton range.

And that isn't even taken into consideration stuff like the Death Star. To destroy the planet like it does requires something around 1x10^38 joules of energy.


I think the Craft vs Wars tactics I posted have a chance of working, though.
Not really. The Wars bioscanners are very advanced. The Zerg wouldn't be able to sneak in really. The Terrans would lose in about a day (a yamato cannon can't even destroy a command structure in 1 hit and an ISD can slag an entire planet in under a day). The protoss would stand the best chance but they would still lose real quick. All of the power levels in StarWars are at least 10 orders of magnitude higher than those in StarCarft or StarTrek.

Remember, StarWars has had over a million worlds colonized for thousands of years.

[Dhavaer]

Still, there have been few advancements in hyperdrive technology, and the Milenium Falcon's .5 hyperdrive is only possible throught extensive and destablilizing modifications, and there is no apparant reasearch into improving the speed of hyperdrives.

This is presumably because, as you mentioned about, there are limits to technology, and the Wars galaxy has almost reached theirs. It doesn't change the fact that what they have is superior to what the UFP has.

[Ulzgoroth]

Core/arm technology verges on arbitrarily abusive. Their weapon systems use antimatter warheads as the baseline, and their minimal ground combatants can absorb those warheads. Their armor is supported by energy fields, if the stuff I read is canon. They fit nanotech capabilities into the smallest war machines they even bother building...and use them to manufacture ammunition. Against most people, they would just roll out a gray goo attack and be done with it.

On the other hand they apparently don't use space forces at all, so orbital bombardment might swing things. Would swing things, probably, because none of their weapons seem to be able to respond. And you can't use the gate network to invade a world that doesn't have a gate...

[Cybren]

Well, my slight contribution to this conversation can be the following quote from Wookipedia:
Note my use of the term "canon"

[Dhavaer]

On the other hand they apparently don't use space forces at all, so orbital bombardment might swing things. Would swing things, probably, because none of their weapons seem to be able to respond. And you can't use the gate network to invade a world that doesn't have a gate...

Cavedog has made fanfiction Canon in the TA 'verse. You seriously don't want to know what the Core and the Arm are flying around in. The only people who could threaten them are the Time Lords, the Daleks, the Xeelee and maybe the Culture.

[Cybren]

Note my use of the term "canon"


The best explanation for the armor is that it helps to reduce the effectiveness of a glancing blaster shot as opposed to a squared on hit. Like how the modern body armor reduced the effectiveness of sharpnel and pistol rounds but not high powered rifle/machine gun rounds.

That really depends entirely on the body armor. But anyway, if arrows and small rocks can hurt you when yo uwear it it isn't very good

[Emperor Tippy]

I'm not refering to time in existance, instead I am refering to the limits that a technology can go, and how Star wars seems to do this the worst. There is a certain point where no matter how advanced you are, you can't go futher with the technology. A good example would be computers, in this case refering to the fact that with current methods, their is a build in limit to how fast you can go, because electricity has a fixed speed and the fact that you need a certain numer of silicon atoms to create a working computer. Now, this could be gotten around by using changing what transmits the data or by using new materials, but at that point it is not silicon technology any more, and new limits are in place.
If we assume that Moore's Law holds true in the SW universe then you could fit the entire summation of all human knowledge to date on a drive the size of a pin head at the time when the original 3 movies take place.
Lets assume that the SW universe is 21,000 years ahead of todays technology and that you can fit 1 GB on a memory stick.

That GB doubles 7 THOUSAND times between today and the SW movies.

After only a thousand doubling you are at 1x10^301 GB or 1x10^277 Yottabytes.



Though Star wars has been around for a long time, technology has progressed slowly along realitivly stable lines, while Star Trek has progressed faster and along several lines. One possiblity for this is the prevalance of previous advanced cicilizations and the fact that there are more frequent wars in the the milky way with several different goverments than in the Star Wars galaxy with its long lasting Old republic that kept the peace in the galaxy. War is one of the greatest forces of innovation in our world, and this is reflected on the apparant increase in innovation after the republic fell and during the later periods. for example, proton torpedoes are in evidence thousands of years befor the movies, and a superior version was not completed until the youzen vong invasion.
Yes, war speeds innovation but the Federation doesn't fight them often. Their millitary tech frankly sucks. All you have to do is look at a phaser to see that.



My previous analogy was that Superman's and Batman's computers in the 1950's had capablities which exceed our current understanding of computer science, and definatly exceeded the vacuum tubes highest levels of functioning, much like Star wars usually exceeds the limits of technology.
They are 25,000 years ahead of when they got hyperspace technology. Even assuming that we got that today they are 25,000 years ahead of where we are currently. And technology level increases exponentially so long as the population and natural resources exist to sustain its growth. We went from the industrial age to the space age in under 300 years. That is 1/75th of the length that the SW universe has has hyperspace tech.

They have over a million colonized star systems and some of their artificial shipyards have over 5 billion residences living on them permanently. You can expect continued technical growth at the regular rate.


And Warp drives have 1 redeeming factor, they are better for "short hops", like the picard maneuver, which hyperdrives can't do, possibly due to their speed. Still, there have been few advancements in hyperdrive technology, and the Milenium Falcon's .5 hyperdrive is only possible throught extensive and destablilizing modifications, and there is no apparant reasearch into improving the speed of hyperdrives.
Hyperdrives can go move a ship at 50 million c. The ST subspace communication network only goes 200,000 c.

I don't think much research is needed into HS tech.

[The_Snark]

And Warp drives have 1 redeeming factor, they are better for "short hops", like the picard maneuver, which hyperdrives can't do, possibly due to their speed.

They're not actually incapable of short hops, but their speed means that the timing has to be very, very precisely calculated. And ships are vulnerable and not all that well-informed for a second or so after they emerge from hyperspace, so making short-distance jumps is usually more trouble than it's worth. So there is an advantage there.


Also, leaving aside the technology questions, I'm going to contend that the Federation loses given only these three points:

1. The Empire is willing to destroy and annihilate planets rather than trying to capture them. I think this point has to be conceded without argument.
2. The Empire's hyperdrives are much faster than warp drives. It's been acknowledged already.
3. The Empire has a much larger infrastructure and the advantage of numbers. Hard to argue with.

Even if, for some reason, we are assuming that the Federation will usually win an encounter if the numbers are even, the Empire wins by striking at production facilities. With superior speed, it can strike at Federation targets of its choice and return. Because it has superior numbers, it can afford to smother the defenses of Federation shipyards; before more Trek ships arrive, the Imperials have reduced the shipyards to slag and hyperspaced out.

It doesn't even leave the Empire open to attack, since the Empire can reorganize its forces much faster than the Federation could respond to an opening.

[Emperor Tippy]

To be fair the Empire could completely annihilate the entire federation Subspace communications array before their planets ever even received a message that they were under attack.

There are roughly 10,000 subspace repeaters spread throughout federation space. They send messages at 200,000 C. The Empire has 25,000 ISD's and hundreds of thousands of Tie Fighters. Those fighters are HS capable as well, and they travel 5 times or more faster than the subspace comms. Every repeater coudl be wiped out in what amounts to an instant and once that is done your effectively in mop up mode.

[PsyBlade]

I just want to add this:
Star Destroyers are powered by miniature Black Holes.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Ummm do you have any idea what speed Warp is?

Warp Speed Factor 1 = Speed of light

Warp Speed Factor 2 = c * 10 ^ 2

Warp 3 = C * 10 ^ 3

etc...

So going Warp 9 would be moving C * 10 ^ 9... which is billions of times faster than the speed of light as well.

Also keep in mind that while the Star Wars 'verse has indeed been around 25,000 years, it has also been smashed back to bedrock, gone through periods of neo-barbarism, and rebuilt itself... multiple times. Not all that time was spent in going forward. Occasionally they had to (in some cases, literally) re-invent the wheel.

[Dhavaer]

So going Warp 9 would be moving C * 10 ^ 9... which is billions of times faster than the speed of light as well.

Then why is it so slow? If Warp was comparable to Hyperdrive, the entire premise of Voyager would be totally unworkable.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Not sure if this has been posted, but...

Definitive Trek vs. Wars battle (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNxhrPaaCA4)

[Turcano]

Not sure if this has been posted, but...

Definitive Trek vs. Wars battle (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNxhrPaaCA4)

Yes. :smalltongue:


Ummm do you have any idea what speed Warp is?

Warp Speed Factor 1 = Speed of light

Warp Speed Factor 2 = c * 10 ^ 2

Warp 3 = C * 10 ^ 3

etc...

So going Warp 9 would be moving C * 10 ^ 9... which is billions of times faster than the speed of light as well.

Where are you getting these figures? Wikipedia puts warp speeds much, much lower, and it has a high probable reliability, as it is a Popular Nerd Topic™.

[I_Got_This_Name]

Core/arm technology verges on arbitrarily abusive. Their weapon systems use antimatter warheads as the baseline, and their minimal ground combatants can absorb those warheads. Their armor is supported by energy fields, if the stuff I read is canon. They fit nanotech capabilities into the smallest war machines they even bother building...and use them to manufacture ammunition. Against most people, they would just roll out a gray goo attack and be done with it.

. . . Oh.


Not really. The Wars bioscanners are very advanced. The Zerg wouldn't be able to sneak in really. The Terrans would lose in about a day (a yamato cannon can't even destroy a command structure in 1 hit and an ISD can slag an entire planet in under a day). The protoss would stand the best chance but they would still lose real quick. All of the power levels in StarWars are at least 10 orders of magnitude higher than those in StarCarft or StarTrek.

Remember, StarWars has had over a million worlds colonized for thousands of years.

The Terrans, as I said, wouldn't amount to more than terrorism. About 24 hours from the start of the war (assuming the Empire dedicated significant resources; a single Star Destroyer stumbling into Terran space would give the Terrans a fighting chance), Mensgk would be either dead or in an Imperial prison, that much is certain. Possibly Raynor and the former magistrate of Mar Sara colony, too, but I'd doubt that. Regardless, the rest of them would then melt away and be very nasty for the imperials. Additionally, the power gap is only significant in space; a Zergling should be able to hold down a Stormtrooper and tear him apart, should it be able to close to melee (Blasters would be brutal on the 'lings, though, but they exist to die).

The Empire's sensors can't be everywhere; if their bioscanners can't find three humans, a wookie, and two droids on a ship in their strongest base, odds are, they won't be able to pick up all of the Zerg everywhere. Also, the tactics the Zerg used against the Confederacy in SC (feigning non-sapience to convince the Empire to let them in and try to control them as a weapon) are perfectly valid here.

If we're going with post-BW Zerg here, the Queen of Blades is cunning enough to hire smugglers to drop Drones off out in the wilderness on those Imperial worlds that still have it; they won't find a hive cluster in the deserts of Tatooine until it's too late.

Against a star destroyer, their only chance is in huge waves of scourge, possibly with Overlords following them to drop off forces for boarding actions, ranging from simply growing hive clusters over the hull like barnacles until they find an entrance to actually burrowing through the ship's plating (hey, if they can burrow into a solar array without giving away their position. . .)

The Protoss would have to fight in the same way, although they don't have the stealth advantage that the Zerg have. The hull of a Star Destroyer probably resembles an SC map more than a unit, but if they can get their ships close enough, they can force it to such a fight. Of course, it would be more to their advantage to avoid space engagements when possible.

Attacking Coruscant would be nigh-impossible for any of them (there's no way to avoid a head-on naval engagement), except for by two approaches:
1) Basic Thermodynamics (http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/396.html).
2) Since 1) merely disproves Coruscant's existence, but we're taking its existence as an axiom, you have to starve them (http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/386.html). 10,000 agricultural planets feeding them; you just need to turn them off, one by one. Best of all, you don't care if they BDZ them to get you off of them, since a BDZ makes them useless to them, and that's all you care about. Bread riots in the capital have a tendency to severely upset governments.

Honestly, I'd say that the Zerg have the best fighting chance, and that's because they're a plague; any of Craft's races that attacked the Empire head-on would lose. The Zerg, though, have the ability to attack their enemy by subverting them, fighting like a disease that infects entire interstellar empires.

Now, on to the silly:
Where does the Planet Express Delivery Ship fit in? It can go from Earth to the Edge of the Universe in an amount of time that makes it a reasonable tourist vacation, and can mount a gravity device that allows it to move around entire stars. Not to mention that their society has demolitions equipment capable of allowing one person to demolish planets, clearly stronger than the Death Star. I think Captain Leela might be able to severely threaten the Empire.

Also, triangle-ships. They can split most asteroids in half in a single shot, if not destroy them outright, and in seven shots (easily quick work) can turn large asteroids into clouds of insignificant dust. Not to mention what they do to flying saucers. So, do they threaten Battlecruisers? The Enterprise? Star Destroyers?

(edit): Finally, in regards to the Wars computers: Star Wars computers are actually ridiculously inefficient compared to where we might calculate them as. First off, Moore's Law is about to expire now, since we're pushing fundamental limits based on the size of the atoms we're using. Second, they still use data tapes to store their important stuff, so their computers (outside the field of artificial intelligence) are actually quite weak compared to ours. They've got great AI, though.

[AtomicKitKat]

Ooh, can we throw Star Control into this?

Star Con vs Star Craft vs Star Trek vs Star Wars. How would the universe survive? :D

[Dhavaer]

I'd like to see Time Lords vs. Xeelee myself. Preferably from several universes away.

[SITB]

The Utwig decimate all since they are 'effing invincible, or the Orz assimilate any planet that thinks about attacking them.

The Ur-Quan Kohr Ah and Kzer Za mop up the remains in holy genocide crusade.

I know that it's silly but I still stand by my Orz comment.

[Piedmon_Sama]

So, dudes, on a tangenitally related note. This one time, I had the idea for the bestest, most awesomest fanfiction ever. It was a project that could only be known by one name--THE MEGAFIC. It was basically gonna be a universes-spanning crossover of pretty much every sci-fi/fantasy/film I happened to love freakin' EVER, ANYWHERE. It would have been awesome--the crew of the Enterprise facing off against Lovecraft's Elder Gods, the Fantastic Four visiting the Feudal Japan of InuYasha, an army of Deep Ones invading the shores of Middle Earth.... would have been the greatest thing ever, if I'd ever, you know, taken ten years of my life aside to write it.

IIRC, it revolved around the necessary acquisition of nine items of power to awaken Azathoth the Idiot God from his eternal slumber, an act that would instantly end the multiverse.... I can remember the Ring of Power from LotR, a Cosmic Cube from the Marvel Universe, the Spear of Destiny out of the DC/Vertigo universe, the embryo of Adam from Neon Genesis Evangelion, the Philosopher's Stone from Full Metal Alchemist, and the Crystal Gem from InuYasha (the whole thing).

Anyway, it was a collection of some serious bad dudes, and a few not-so-serious, who were plotting this.... there was Blackheart from Marvel Comics, Sauron from LotR, the Emperor from Star Wars, Megatron from Transformers (G1 of course) at the heart of the conspiracy, with guys like Cobra Commander from GI-Joe, Orochimaru from Naruto, and Skeletor from Masters of the Universe providing henchmen and support....

So it came down to a race between these armies and a small band of time-tossed heroes.... would have included Vash the Stampede from Trigun, Wolverine from the X-Men, John Constantine from Vertigo's Hellblazer, the Elric Brothers from Full Metal Alchemist, maybe one of the Teen Titans...

The only things I wasn't going to include were Dragonball Z and the "upper-tier" characters of DC's superhero universe, both of whom would have been really too powerful to leave the other characters anything to do. So yeah, that was the epic that never was.... seeing this thread brought back the memories all in a rush. Now I wonder if I can find my old story outline somewhere....

[Ramza00]

Ummm do you have any idea what speed Warp is?

Warp Speed Factor 1 = Speed of light

Warp Speed Factor 2 = c * 10 ^ 2

Warp 3 = C * 10 ^ 3

etc...

So going Warp 9 would be moving C * 10 ^ 9... which is billions of times faster than the speed of light as well.

Also keep in mind that while the Star Wars 'verse has indeed been around 25,000 years, it has also been smashed back to bedrock, gone through periods of neo-barbarism, and rebuilt itself... multiple times. Not all that time was spent in going forward. Occasionally they had to (in some cases, literally) re-invent the wheel.
Those numbers are wrong.

Warp works like this.

Warp 9 is 9^3 times the speed of light or 729 times the speed of light
Warp 5 is 5^3 times the speed of light or 125 times the speed of light
Warp 10 is 10^3 times the speed of light or 1000 times the speed of light

This is why it would take over 70, years for Voyager to travel the 70,000 light years to return to the federation.

Note though the star trek works at the speed of the plot, and that the actual distances between objects is far shorter or greater depending on what the story calls for. For example in the first episode of enterprise, the first "warp 5 human starship" can reach the klingon homeworld in 4 days. That means the klingon homeworld is only 1.64 light years away, and thus is an invisible star system that is far closer to earth than our nearest "real star system" alpha centauri.

[AtomicKitKat]

The Utwig decimate all since they are 'effing invincible, or the Orz assimilate any planet that thinks about attacking them.

The Ur-Quan Kohr Ah and Kzer Za mop up the remains in holy genocide crusade.

I know that it's silly but I still stand by my Orz comment.

If we're going by the ships available though, the Utwig are a lot more vulnerable than you'd think, since a simple Tractor Beam to pull them off course into a planet pretty much renders them dead. That and I never did quite master the shields on those buggers.

The Yehat are the most invincible SoBs around though, having much better shields that can even absorb the planetary collisions. The Pkunks come in a close second, if you can reincarnate often enough.

The Kohr-Ah totally blow the Kzer-Za out of the water. This is also borne out towards the finale.

The Chenjesu Broodhomes are actually far more dangerous than the Chmmr Avatars, IMO.

The Orz are definitely toughies though. Sentient Parrotfish in Exosuits that can tear your ship apart from the inside. :(

The Vux could slow down anyone. The Shofixti would be working like Zerg Scourges, flying in at high speeds past all the shots so they could suicide in a Blaze of Glory.

I can just see the Slylandro Probes stripping everything down towards the end.

[Belteshazzar]

Ok I now offer a new combatant to the fray The Sphere. If you have ever played Prey you will realize that 1. They gots portals both targetable and stable
2. It can apparently teleport items within range of the tracter beams equipped on their saucers.
3. Their standard gun grow its own ammo.
4. It can integrate captured people into its workforce in less than a day.
5. It apparently do have some force sheilds.
6.They are an ancient creator race (or at least claim to be) and their defeat in the game was simply due to a sense of overinflated ego and the simple fact that Tommey could not be kept dead for more than a minute (yes even if his body was vaporized)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Those numbers are wrong.

Warp works like this.

Warp 9 is 9^3 times the speed of light or 729 times the speed of light
Warp 5 is 5^3 times the speed of light or 125 times the speed of light
Warp 10 is 10^3 times the speed of light or 1000 times the speed of light

This is why it would take over 70, years for Voyager to travel the 70,000 light years to return to the federation.

Note though the star trek works at the speed of the plot, and that the actual distances between objects is far shorter or greater depending on what the story calls for. For example in the first episode of enterprise, the first "warp 5 human starship" can reach the klingon homeworld in 4 days. That means the klingon homeworld is only 1.64 light years away, and thus is an invisible star system that is far closer to earth than our nearest "real star system" alpha centauri.

'Warp 10' is one of those 'unachievable' speeds in which you are literally everywhere in the galaxy at the same time. It was what was used in the third movie to go travel back in time, using the Sun as a boomerang to accelerate them past Warp 9.

Other than that... yea, all ships in Trek move at the speed of 'plot' after TNG came out. Hell, they won't even let their writers actually use any tech talk. They require them to just put in something like [tech talk... 10 mins] and leave it to the other people to fill in with mostly innane drivel.

[kamikasei]

'Warp 10' is one of those 'unachievable' speeds in which you are literally everywhere in the galaxy at the same time. It was what was used in the third movie to go travel back in time, using the Sun as a boomerang to accelerate them past Warp 9.

Ahem. Puts on Trekkie hat...

Warp factors worked as Ramza described on the Original Series: Warp N = N^3. Then for the Next Generation and following shows, it was revised so that Warp N = N^(10/3) up to warp 9, and then above warp 9, the exponent gradually rose so that warp 10 was infinite.

There's no formula used to generate warp factors above 9. The curve from 9 to 10 was actually just dashed off freehand by one of the technical consultants or illustrators. I've seen someone come up with a ridiculously complex formula to fit the curve, but really, above warp 9 the formula breaks down.

They traveled back in time in the fourth movie, not the third. They did indeed slingshot around the sun at warp 10. It's not clear whether they were using the old or new scale at this point, but it was totally ridiculous either way (at even 1000 times light speed, circling the sun wouldn't take that long).

[Who]

I personally wouldn't mind seeing Zerg vs Dalek

[anphorus]

'Warp 10' is one of those 'unachievable' speeds in which you are literally everywhere in the galaxy at the same time.

That sounds like a quote from that one episode of voyager where Paris and Janeway become space slugs. The only episode of Trek that was ever deleted from canon for being so god-awful.

Or maybe it's from movie 3, I dunno. It's been a while.

They eventually get up to at least Warp 14, as seen in the last episode of TNG. And the Excelsior had a transwarp drive capable of going beyond Warp 10.

Anyway, the Xeele win anyway, because, if I am getting my memory of SF space empires right, the Xeele have technology which means that they send all of their knowledge back in time to the beginning of their civilisation. That's pretty impossible to beat.

[Cybren]

That sounds like a quote from that one episode of voyager where Paris and Janeway become space slugs. The only episode of Trek that was ever deleted from canon for being so god-awful.

Or maybe it's from movie 3, I dunno. It's been a while.

They eventually get up to at least Warp 14, as seen in the last episode of TNG. And the Excelsior had a transwarp drive capable of going beyond Warp 10.

Anyway, the Xeele win anyway, because, if I am getting my memory of SF space empires right, the Xeele have technology which means that they send all of their knowledge back in time to the beginning of their civilisation. That's pretty impossible to beat.
Uhm in the voyagerepisode you mention i'm pretty sure they did (or atleast attempted) to go to warp 10.

And, considering how far in the future that part of All Good Things took place in, it's possible they restructured their classifications of warp speeds

[Viscount Einstrauss]

I've seen a lot of people here hatin' on stormtrooper armor because the troopers underneath keep dying. I'd just like to say that these arguments are completely ignoring how armor works. No matter how indestructable the armor on the outside is, the person wearing it is still squishy and prone to shock damage. Blaster fire has been shown to do some rather frightening collateral damage in the past, so it's shock damage must be intense. I can't recall any instances in Star Wars where a stormtrooper's armor was ever breached, despite their vast casualties.

As for dramatic imperative, that only counts if it's only like that once in the official cannon instead of every freaking time. Like when Leia was hit by a stormtrooper blast in the arm and it just sorta immobilized her for the rest of the day. That was bullcrap. So, you can't say that star destroyers aren't ridiculously powerful because every single time they're shown in a dramatic encounter. That makes no sense.

[Cybren]

I've seen a lot of people here hatin' on stormtrooper armor because the troopers underneath keep dying. I'd just like to say that these arguments are completely ignoring how armor works. No matter how indestructable the armor on the outside is, the person wearing it is still squishy and prone to shock damage. Blaster fire has been shown to do some rather frightening collateral damage in the past, so it's shock damage must be intense. I can't recall any instances in Star Wars where a stormtrooper's armor was ever breached, despite their vast casualties.

As for dramatic imperative, that only counts if it's only like that once in the official cannon instead of every freaking time. Like when Leia was hit by a stormtrooper blast in the arm and it just sorta immobilized her for the rest of the day. That was bullcrap. So, you can't say that star destroyers aren't ridiculously powerful because every single time they're shown in a dramatic encounter. That makes no sense.
prone to shock damage from being hit by a small rock thrown by a pygmie...

[Viscount Einstrauss]

That actually goes along quite well with the dramatic imperative. I don't recall the helmets breaking from the rocks, so we can safely assume that they didn't die because the rocks broke through the helmets. They died because George Lucas somehow thought it would be cool to have a heavily armed death squad suffer total defeat at the hands of teddy bears. So, those stormtroopers apparently had tumors and unusually soft spots on the tops of their skulls, so any blunt trauma at all would have killed them. This same tumor is what made them incapable of shooting people of real importance, though it perplexingly let them operate just fine against everyone else.

[Demented]

It's because the suits fit so tightly that being hit in the helmet by a rock feels the same as actually being hit on your bare scalp.

Myself, I always figured Stormtrooper armor has an explosive (perhaps catalytical, since the armor itself remains undamaged) reaction to blaster fire, that tends to kill the wearer. Exactly why anyone would equip them with armor that doesn't protect against physical blows and blaster fire (practically the only thing a Stormtrooper will ever face) is beyond me. Maybe it's a style issue. Equipping your troops with actual metal looks too bounty hunterish... fancy metaplas looks better in uniforms.

In any case, every time blaster fire has shown to be effective, it was under "dramatic imperative". When it's not dramatically imperative for something to be damaged, blaster fire tends to make smoke and sparks, at most. Or, in space battles, little popping flashes.

(In Star Trek, phasers are never discharged without immense doses of dramatic imperative, either one way or the other, thus it should be theoretically impossible to tell what they can 'actually' do. Though, if they make good blunt weapons, stormtroopers better start running.)

[Also... what DO the Core travel around in? Got me curious...]

[Dhavaer]

I personally wouldn't mind seeing Zerg vs Dalek

Zerg get stomped. Daleks can go up against the Time Lords, and the Time Lords can blow up universes.


prone to shock damage from being hit by a small rock thrown by a pygmie...

Those rocks were fairly large, and landed square on the stormies heads. That is not a surviveable impact, no matter how good your armour is.


Anyway, the Xeele win anyway, because, if I am getting my memory of SF space empires right, the Xeele have technology which means that they send all of their knowledge back in time to the beginning of their civilisation. That's pretty impossible to beat.

Just add on to this, it's worth remembering that the beginning of the Xeelee civilisation was shortly after the Big Bang. 'Shortly after' being measurable on seconds, IIRC.

[Inyssius Tor]

Those rocks were fairly large, and landed square on the stormies heads. That is not a surviveable impact, no matter how good your armour is.
"Oh noes, I got hit with a rock! Darn. I guess I'm pretty much screwed..." (http://www.blizzard.com/inblizz/contests/artcontest2006/images/s11.jpg) (note: that's not the full helmet)

[Cybren]

Those rocks were fairly large, and landed square on the stormies heads. That is not a surviveable impact, no matter how good your armour is.



http://www.elvex.com/Images/SC-30-blue.jpg

[Dhavaer]

"Oh noes, I got hit with a rock! Darn. I guess I'm pretty much screwed..." (http://www.blizzard.com/inblizz/contests/artcontest2006/images/s11.jpg) (note: that's not the full helmet)

That's not a helmet, that's power armour. None of the energy from the rock will transfer to the head or neck in that suit.


http://www.elvex.com/Images/SC-30-blue.jpg

That would not protect you from an Ewok rock.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

That's actually a good idea for taking out the Empire- the government from Starship Troopers, whatever they called it. Their entire army is just really impressive, though I don't think they mentioned how powerful their navy was much. Still, their powered suit land forces would overwhelm just about anything.

[Dhavaer]

That's actually a good idea for taking out the Empire- the government from Starship Troopers, whatever they called it. Their entire army is just really impressive, though I don't think they mentioned how powerful their navy was much. Still, their powered suit land forces would overwhelm just about anything.

I don't think they have the speed to take on the Empire, but I've never actually read the book. Would this be a problem?

[Viscount Einstrauss]

The soldiers were taught to accomplish missions in a manner of seconds usually. And if they were off by just one or two seconds, that could mean they don't get to go home. Really, they were insanely quick.

The book is nothing like the movie, mind you. The movie had none of the book's tech at all.

[Dhavaer]

The soldiers were taught to accomplish missions in a manner of seconds usually. And if they were off by just one or two seconds, that could mean they don't get to go home. Really, they were insanely quick.

I meant strategic speed; essentially, are their spacecraft fast enough to catch or escape from the Empire's?

[Demented]

That would not protect you from an Ewok rock.

If an ewok was trying to bash you in with it by hand, it probably would. They (the ewoks, that is) didn't look particularly robust, and didn't weild their weapons any better. The stormtroopers in those instances likely succumbed more from sheer shock of being ambushed by furry little rabbit men than actual blunt injury.

[Dhavaer]

If an ewok was trying to bash you in with it by hand, it probably would. They (the ewoks, that is) didn't look particularly robust, and didn't weild their weapons any better. The stormtroopers in those instances likely succumbed more from sheer shock of being ambushed by furry little rabbit men than actual blunt injury.

But they aren't bashing you with it, they're dropping a rock onto your head. And considering the size of the rocks relative to the size of Ewoks, I'd say they're quite robust.

[Cybren]

Also, they were totally not even that impressive those rocks didn't even dent the storm trooper armor it's like they were some pathetic fake movie prop and not even that heavy

[SMDVogrin]

I meant strategic speed; essentially, are their spacecraft fast enough to catch or escape from the Empire's?

Probably not. Only speed reference I could find on a quick look though was the speed of the Tours (a six-platoon assault transport) which "under Cherenkov drive she cranks Mike 400 or better - say Sol to Capella, forty-six light years, in under six weeks". (There is some suggestion that one-platoon 'Corvettes' are faster, but the viewpoint character apparently considers the Tours fairly fast). 400c is none too shabby, but compared to the thousands-to-millions-c of SW Hyperdrive, it's crawling.

And we know virtually nothing about Naval combat tech - other than their possession of something called a "Nova Bomb" and that part-way through the war, the Navy's "newest toys can blow any planet right out of the sky".

[I_Got_This_Name]

Storm Trooper Armor is made of some weird composite that is pratically indestructible, for any forces that we've seen applied to it; it doesn't deform, break, or cut under any force short of a lightsaber that we've seen.

In an infantry battle, then, anyone else would have to rely on non-penetrative attacks.

Federation troops may be able to disintegrate them with phasers. Maybe.

Terran Marines are quite likely to find their guns (sized as stationary pieces, capable of penetrating tank or battleship plating, and only able to be carried by their powered armor) to be near-worthless against the Stormtroopers, since their shots probably won't penetrate (unless I'm overestimating the troops' armor). The kinetic energy their bullets lose when they bounce off the troops' armor will jar them, though. Firebats, of course, can toast them, since there is no way their armor can be airtight. Protoss warriors can cut through them easily (Psi-Force Transparency), and the Zerg are good at tearing stuff apart. SC units may actually be better-defended than Stormtroopers, actually, since Marines can survive, IIRC, direct hits from field artillery.

A standard bending robot could probably do quite a bit of damage, and bounce blaster fire off of its shiny body.

I have no idea what kind of society backs the Triangle ships, so I can't estimate what their infantry would do against stormtroopers.

Given that Total Annihilation happens on a scale where you can watch things move at the speed of light, I'll have to hand any infantry battles to whichever of the Core or Arm got involved first.

(edit): Looks like everyone else has the same anti-imperial tactics: try to steal their technology, while hiding whatever advantages you have.

[Dhavaer]

Firebats, of course, can toast them, since there is no way their armor can be airtight.

It is airtight, actually. Imperials use a lot of chemical warfare, so it has to be.

[Innis Cabal]

and many are space ready. Sorry no firebats

[I_Got_This_Name]

Well, heatproofing is the important part; does it do that?

How is it airtight, though? If it can't circulate in air from outside, it needs an internal supply, and there's no room for one (well, no room for anything significant). A filtering gas mask, sure, but that's not airtight in the way we need.

(Edited like all my other posts in this thread): Unless I'm missing a critical point in my understanding of how airtight suits can work.

[Innis Cabal]

its called plot, and there are several platoons that are used to attach to star ships and plant explosives on them, and the desert suits are heat proofed.

[Demented]

Airtight makes almost no difference against flame.
Either it conducts heat, or it doesn't.
Those black joints look like they'd melt anyways.


Also, the effectiveness of Terran Marine gunfire is questionable... But for sheer balance reasons, I'd suspect that it would work against stormtroopers. Afterall, for reasons that really make no sense, blasters work more than perfectly against stormtroopers despite the nature of energy weapons and the clear invulnerability of stormtrooper armor.

[The_Snark]

Stormtrooper armor is quite good, but they still haven't been quite able to make it protect against a direct blaster shot. Terrans would be able to penetrate it, I think, but I think the stormtroopers have the edge in both armor and firepower.

It's not airtight, generally, though it does have filtering. Some are heavily heatproofed (the ones used by the troopers on Tatooine, for example), but that's more designed to prevent heatstroke tham make the trooper impervious to flamethrowers. Flamethrowers are short-range enough that none of the Star Wars people really bother to defend against it, because they can gun the flamethrower-user down way ahead of time.

The troopers used in extra-vehicle operations have specially modified suits, and should probably be considered more like tanks than infantry.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Kerrigan vs Yoda fight:

The Scene (yes, this is not cannon)
Yoda is in his little hovel in Degoba. The Brood have been drawn to Degoba because a) it is mostly unpopulated, and b) has a force which is attracting them in (assuming Force/Psionics crossover, they would be attracted by the cave that Yoda sent Luke into... the one steeped in Dark Force energy).

Yoda has sensed a major disturbance in the force on Degoba. He fears a Sith has come to investigate the cave, and is surprised by what he finds instead: six Zerglings. They attack him, he kills them all off easily without getting hurt. The Cerebrate in charge of the operation informs Kerrigan that there is an unknown hostile entity which wiped out the scout force using something not unlike the sword the Dark Templar use, although it was not stealthed.

Worried about the one thing which can permanently kill her cerebrate, she sends in an Overmind to scan the area, and locates the location of Yoda. She had felt Yoda's presence, as Yoda sensed hers, but couldn't really localize what it was.

Kerrigan, knowing Yoda's location, moves in to eliminate this threat herself rather than waste troops from the newly formed and still developing Hatchery planted deep in the swamps. As she approaches his location, she goes into stealth mode, invisible and unseen... but not unfelt...

Round by Round action

Yoda: "Mmmm... a disturbance in the Force I feel... nearby..." and lights up his Sabre.

Kerrigan: Leaps down at Yoda from a limb to try and kill him from behind.

Yoda: Senses the attack, uses Speed Burst to zip out of the way of the attack, he rolls back into a defensive position. While he cannot see Kerrigan, Jedi do not rely on sight. Besides... she's calf-deep in muck and water, it's not like it's too hard to see her location. "Such hatred... such rage... and yet... not Sith. Who are you?"

Kerrigan: de-cloaks to conserve energy, since she has pegged Yoda for a Detector unit (not an entirely unreasonable assumption) "I am Kerrigan, Queen of Blades, Queen of the Zerg. Why do you stand in my way, little muppet?"

Yoda: *sighs* "Strong you are, but trained not." he frown in concentration "Human, you were, once. Who has done this to you?"

Kerrigan: "That doesn't matter anymore. I am what I am now, not what I once was. Now face your death!"

Kerrigan charges forward with her claws. Yoda jumps up, spinning midair while swinging his lightsabre at her. A flury of blows is traded between the two combatants, neither one really landing any solid blows. Finally, she manages to catch him square with a backhand blow and knock him back. He recovers mid-air, bounces off of the tree rather than being knocked against it, and lands on his feet, breathing heavily. Scorch marks are on several places on her carapace.

Yoda: "Young and untrained you are. Hope to defeat me, you cannot. Let me help you find who you were, and show you the path back to the Light side." he asks earnestly, reaching a hand out to her, his other hand still holding his still lit lightsabre

Kerrigan: "I don't need help from a hyperactive midget! Besides, who ever said anything about a fair fight?" Kerrigan makes a rising gesture, and her ambush springs. Twelve Zerglings and six Hydralisks come up out of the swamp muck around Yoda and approach him cautiously.

Yoda: sighs again and shakes his head "Such wasted potential. Remind me of Annakin, you do..." As the units approach him, he springs into action.

Zerglings surround Yoda and converge. Hydralisks stay back at maximum range, making sure they are not in each other's line of fire. Kerrigan stays back out of the fight. Yoda remains in ready stance, both hands on his Sabre.

The Zerglings pounce as a coordinated attack. Yoda springs straight up, spinning in the air, lightsabre flashing around like a weed-wacker. A pair of Zerglings fall to the ground, cut in half. He bounces off of one Zergling and launches himself at a Hydralisk, all of whom go into rapid fire. He lands on the Hydralisk's head, plunging his Sabre into the brain cavity. The Hydralisk falls over, very dead. He launches himself from there to the next one, using his Sabre to destory spines as they are shot at him. The Zerglings regroup.

Yoda makes a throwing gesture, and a large dead tree swings out then lands heavily, crushing most of the zerglings and at least one hydralisk, putting a barrier between himself and Kerrigan, who has still not made a move yet.

Yoda finishes off the rest of the Hydralisks with ease, none of them being able to actually hit him with any sort of ranged projectile. As he hops onto the tree, he finds that Kerrigan has left during the battle, her voice echoing in the swamps

Kerrigan: You're quite impressive, it seems that I've underestimated you. Don't worry, I'll remember that next time... *evil chuckle*

Yoda turns off his Sabre and hops down off the dead tree. He extends and arm, and brings his walking stick to him with the Force, then limps back home. Truely, this was most disturbing news...

[Demented]

A firebat in deep space is going to be nothing but a signal flare anyways.

[blackout]

The Covenant kill them all. Then Master Chief kills the Covenant. Then the Tau kill Master Chief.

[Demented]

Hell naw. The Space Marines kill everyone. Then the space marines kill themselves. Then the Tau enslave everyone left. Then the Tau kill the Covenent, the Master Chief, and the Sergeant (finally!).

Then we all sit down to a nice kroot dinner with Picard's severed head in an imperial dreadnought.

[blackout]

....I like my version better, but that works. :)

[I_Got_This_Name]

Star Wars tech is far in advance of Halo tech, even for the Covenant. The Covenant are comparable to the Protoss, and not favorably; give me Warp Blades over Plasma Swords any day.

Honestly, I'd peg Master Chief as a match for Jim Raynor, no better. Actually, Raynor is more heavily armed than MC; he's got a gun that is designed for powered-armor users; MC is using standard infantry weapons.

Also, even if your sequences work out, the Core then come in and reclaim everyone's bodies for energy.

[JaronK]

Is this a bad time to bring up the Tyranids and the C'tan? Because I'm pretty sure either one could eat the Star Wars Imperium before they knew what happened. And I do mean eat!

JaronK

[Dhavaer]

And then the Xeelee mess with time and make it happen all over again.


Is this a bad time to bring up the Tyranids and the C'tan? Because I'm pretty sure either one could eat the Star Wars Imperium before they knew what happened. And I do mean eat!

How good are the Tyranids in space? I assume they're compareable to the Imperium, which has comparable weapons and defences to the Empire, but is slower due to all the daemons in the warp.

The C'Tan beat the Empire handily; they're even faster still. To beat the C'Tan, you need someone like the Daleks or Xeelee.

[JaronK]

Actually, I'm pretty sure the C'tan have a shot and messing with the Xeelee right back... the Tyranids admittedly couldn't do that.

JaronK

[Dhavaer]

Actually, I'm pretty sure the C'tan have a shot and messing with the Xeelee right back... the Tyranids admittedly couldn't do that.

JaronK

Information on Xeelee tech is very hard to come by, but it seems the C'Tan might have a chance against a Nightfighter. The problem being that Nightfighters can apparently duplicate themselves, and already know what will happen in any given fight due to their timetravel capabilities. They also don't appear to be vulnerable to most weaponry.

I'm still looking for information, though.

[JaronK]

Well, the C'tan are literally gods, capable of reshaping the universe (I believe in the Warhammer 40k world they effectively created death for everyone except the Orks). I wouldn't put time manipulation past them, either.

JaronK

[Dhavaer]

Well, the C'tan are literally gods, capable of reshaping the universe (I believe in the Warhammer 40k world they effectively created death for everyone except the Orks). I wouldn't put time manipulation past them, either.

They didn't created death, they created the image and fear of death when the Nightbringer preyed on the non-orc species. If the C'Tan could travel through time like the Xeelee can, they'd already have eaten that galaxy. The Nightbringer certainly would have altered history so he hadn't have lost his flagship.

[JaronK]

It's possible that the Old Ones stopped them. The C'tan are vulnerable to magic, after all.

And hey, while we're at it, what about the Old Ones/Slaan? That's an awful lot of magic they can throw around. In their height, they could travel from world to world with a thought. They got trounced by the C'tan, but when they're not fighting gods they're quite nasty.

JaronK

[Dhavaer]

I think the Old Ones were a bit too dead by that point. I don't think there's enough information about them to really gauge how powerful they were, but the C'Tan managed to kill them off so they can't be all that powerful.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

Stormtrooper armor is airtight, includes a breathing apparatus, a limited air supply, and has a very advanced heating and cooling system. That black part you see underneath the white armor is an environmental suit of sorts, meant to let the stormtroopers operate damn near anywhere for a little while, though there are, as you've seen before, several different variants of the basic stormtrooper armor meant for a variety of different atmospheres, such as the snowtrooper, sandtrooper, and spacetrooper suits. The latter contains a complete air filtering device and great conditioning, so a troop with it can go unaided in the depths of space for quite a while. Spacetrooper armor is also noticeably bulkier and thicker than usual, armed with better weaponry, self-propelled, and powered way better than usual.

You'll find these terrors roaming space battlefields in search of capital ships, which they'll board and take over quite quickly. It doesn't help that they're usually aided by support fire from ion cannons, which can completely disable electronic devices. It's very, very, very hard to match the Empire in space battles. Look at how much the Rebellion just ran from them.

[Who]

Daleks beat everything, end of story

[Viscount Einstrauss]

Hell, if we're just looking for the ultimate winners, the answer is right here in these very threads.

It starts innocently enough. A handful of entities approach every single mythology, greeting themselves.

"Hi, we're all level 20 wizards."

Everybody a'splodes.

[Dhavaer]

Daleks beat everything, end of story

Except Time Lords and possibly Xeelee.

[Who]

And whats a Xeelee?

[kamikasei]

And whats a Xeelee?

Annoyingly, Wikipedia doesn't have a proper article for them.

They're super-aliens. Their civilization rose to prominence very early in the universe's history, and developed ridiculously godlike tech; they can manipulate spacetime at a fundamental level to give them gravity weapons and hyperdrive that can travel billions of light years in days, instantaneous communication across arbitrary distances, and construction material that is super dense and totally inert (so that pretty much only the aforementioned gravity weapons can harm it). The scraps of technology they leave in their wake drive the entire rest of the universe's economy. Their weapons can collapse planets and turn stars nova. They're engaged in a cosmos-wide conflict in which entire galaxies are used as weapons (seriously, entire galaxies are accelerated up to near light speed and used as projectiles). They're losing that conflict, so they travelled back in time to moments after the big bang to reshape their history and turn most of the visible matter in the universe into a giant (million-light-year-wide, I think?) device to allow them to escape from the universe. Humanity spent a million years conquering every other race to attack the Xeelee, and the net result was just to irritate them enough that they wiped out mankind.

On a less ridiculously uber note: the Inhibitors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inhibitors_%28Revelation_Space%29) (Revelation Space) could probably take on most other civilizations through sheer inevitability. Certainly the Federation or Empire would be screwed.

[AtomicKitKat]

Annoyingly, Wikipedia doesn't have a proper article for them.

They're super-aliens. Their civilization rose to prominence very early in the universe's history, and developed ridiculously godlike tech; they can manipulate spacetime at a fundamental level to give them gravity weapons and hyperdrive that can travel billions of light years in days, instantaneous communication across arbitrary distances, and construction material that is super dense and totally inert (so that pretty much only the aforementioned gravity weapons can harm it). The scraps of technology they leave in their wake drive the entire rest of the universe's economy. Their weapons can collapse planets and turn stars nova. They're engaged in a cosmos-wide conflict in which entire galaxies are used as weapons (seriously, entire galaxies are accelerated up to near light speed and used as projectiles). They're losing that conflict, so they travelled back in time to moments after the big bang to reshape their history and turn most of the visible matter in the universe into a giant (million-light-year-wide, I think?) device to allow them to escape from the universe. Humanity spent a million years conquering every other race to attack the Xeelee, and the net result was just to irritate them enough that they wiped out mankind.

On a less ridiculously uber note: the Inhibitors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inhibitors_%28Revelation_Space%29) (Revelation Space) could probably take on most other civilizations through sheer inevitability. Certainly the Federation or Empire would be screwed.

On that note, DQ for the Deity-class contenders!:smallbiggrin:

[blackout]

Annoyingly, Wikipedia doesn't have a proper article for them.

They're super-aliens. Their civilization rose to prominence very early in the universe's history, and developed ridiculously godlike tech; they can manipulate spacetime at a fundamental level to give them gravity weapons and hyperdrive that can travel billions of light years in days, instantaneous communication across arbitrary distances, and construction material that is super dense and totally inert (so that pretty much only the aforementioned gravity weapons can harm it). The scraps of technology they leave in their wake drive the entire rest of the universe's economy. Their weapons can collapse planets and turn stars nova. They're engaged in a cosmos-wide conflict in which entire galaxies are used as weapons (seriously, entire galaxies are accelerated up to near light speed and used as projectiles). They're losing that conflict, so they travelled back in time to moments after the big bang to reshape their history and turn most of the visible matter in the universe into a giant (million-light-year-wide, I think?) device to allow them to escape from the universe. Humanity spent a million years conquering every other race to attack the Xeelee, and the net result was just to irritate them enough that they wiped out mankind.



........................................ALL HAIL THE XEELEE! MAKE ME ONE OF YOUR OWN!

[Belteshazzar]

Perhaps we should leave out the post-singularity races (for purposes of balance of course because seriously what is the fun in fighting something that simply wills you into non-existence. However I do have a new contestant for our little slugfest (seeing as how Mother and The Sphere were too obscure).
Enter Dr.who Breen and the Combine from the Half Life series. Has a liberal use of synth technology and cybernetics to conquer what is implied to be an enormous intergalactic empire. The Xen were force to flee to the border world ( some kind of odd dimension with hint of the Far Planes)

[blackout]

The Tau kill the Combine.

[Beleriphon]

Yeah, I was reading the Wizards' Duel thread, and it got me thinking; if the casts of any and all 'geek' mythologies clashed, what would come out more powerful?

Jean-Luc Picard vs. Charles Xavier, Count Dooku vs. Saruman, Willow Ufgood vs. Filius Flitwick.

(This isn't limited to characters played by the same actor. These are just varied examples.)

Seriously, the Force vs. Tolkien magic. Wars vs. Trek. X-Men vs. Jedi Knights. What's the most powerful mythology/character?


EDIT: Damn, wrong forum! Could someone move this, please?

Xavier v Picard: Xavier wins, mind control FTW!

Dooku v Saruman: Saruman wins, hordes of minions FTW!

Willow v Anybody: Anybody wins, because Willow's a lame-o.

[Demented]

The Tau kill the Combine.

Anything kills the Combine. At least the transhuman wing. The Combine has conquered a universe or two, so they probably have more exotic forces elsewhere. But, apparently, no FTL.

[Kosmopolite]

"There are thousands of us and only four of you."
"We could defeat you with only one Dalek."

Yeah, the Daleks win.

[Hel65]

Cthulhu and his kin win all.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

No fair, that's godmoding.

Literally.

[SITB]

Hah! Orz are not even from this dimension and they immediately posses everyone who ever know something about them, which C'thulhu (as part of the mythos of "knowledge not for mortals to comprehend") will probably know about.

In fact in second glance, Orz do seem similar to the "Old Gods" in that respect, they are vaguely refrenced entities with unfathomable power that reach through "tendrils" to affect our world. Or maybe the analogy falls short.

Anyway, Star Control II mythology=> Win.

[Frankmuddy]

Wotan Pwns everyone, but then he gets pwned by Fenris Wolf at Ragnarok. it's in the book.

[Dhavaer]

Cthulhu and his kin win all.

The photino birds blow up the stars so they can never be right. The Xeelee could do the same thing, but wouldn't.

[Frankmuddy]

I don't think they have the speed to take on the Empire, but I've never actually read the book. Would this be a problem?

Federation mobile infantry would be a strong match for Imperial ground forces. The powered armor suits can fly, and each one has enough ordinance to toast a fairly wide area to medium-fragged. They don't have much in the way of tank killers, though, so they might have trouble dealing with AT-AT and other very heavy imperial armor. Also, I don't recall the book going into detail about CAP and other aircrafy, so they might have trouble dealing with Imperial repulsor craft and other close aerial support.

Finally, I don't think they have a damned thing that could engage a ISD, but that's just because Star Destroyers pwn.

[Frankmuddy]

They're the same thing. Only after twenty years alone in a swamp, Awesome Wise Master Yoda decides that he's going to feign being just another local swamp gnome.

That's a good match, though.

Eh, Warhammer... While we're at it, we might as well bring the Lovecraft mythos into it. In general, we ought to leave the god-like entities out of our speculations.

Cthulhu vs. Nurgle! Live at the Insanodome!

The thing to remember about Cthulhu is that Cthulhu isn't a particularly powerful creature. He's actually more of a boot licking lesser intern of the Old Gods. He's just there to wake them up in time to unmake creation.

[Belteshazzar]

The Combine's Trashuman arm is admittedly very weak (I would rather have the clone solders from Fear as my personal guard but that is another category of bang.) However though they lack faster than light (I am not sure if they truly lack it or just don't use it in the game.) But their portal tech more than makes up for that by routing their forces through the Border Worlds almost instantaneously. They are also researching localized handheld weaponized portals as seen in Valve's upcoming game Portals. If they actually manage to use those I could see some hilarious ground battles.

[Ulzgoroth]

I don't think they have the speed to take on the Empire, but I've never actually read the book. Would this be a problem?

Their space capability, as far as I can tell, was very much handwaved. I never actually got a clear idea of whether or not the enemy had combat space forces (and yes, I do mean in the book)...

Maybe some passing hint somewhere would let you derive a speed. I doubt it'd be 'cross the galaxy in under a week' as SW seems to go for.

EDIT: But on the ground, they're good. What Luke did to the AT-AT? They can do that kind of thing...with all their 'infantry'. AT-ATs just don't have a respectable ability to engage small, fast moving targets. Nor do AT-STs. And MI carry around tac-nuke rockets that ought to do a very respectable job on most armor, and the surrounding countryside. I don't know if AT-AT plating might survive, but at the least you could probably tip it on its side with the shockwave.

[SMDVogrin]

Federation mobile infantry would be a strong match for Imperial ground forces. The powered armor suits can fly, and each one has enough ordinance to toast a fairly wide area to medium-fragged. They don't have much in the way of tank killers, though, so they might have trouble dealing with AT-AT and other very heavy imperial armor. Also, I don't recall the book going into detail about CAP and other aircrafy, so they might have trouble dealing with Imperial repulsor craft and other close aerial support.

MI carry mini-nukes. I don't think AT-ATs are going to be that much of a problem there (or maybe they can take 2ktons? I honestly don't know the numbers).


Finally, I don't think they have a damned thing that could engage a ISD, but that's just because Star Destroyers pwn.

Bad assumption. We do not see their naval warfare capabilities in the book, but that is not grounds to assume they have none. We know they have "battlewagons" much, much larger than the transports that we see. Furthermore, we know the Navy can "blow any planet right out of the sky" (their "Nova Bombs" can "crack <a planet> wide open"). Even ignoring this, the Navy can render a planet uninhabitable "by Man or Bug" from a stand-off distance (maybe not exactly Base Delta Zero, but sounds close enough).

[Cybren]

The photino birds blow up the stars so they can never be right. The Xeelee could do the same thing, but wouldn't.
That's not how Cthulu works.

[SMDVogrin]

Their space capability, as far as I can tell, was very much handwaved. I never actually got a clear idea of whether or not the enemy had combat space forces (and yes, I do mean in the book)...

"Ship for ship, our Navy was better;"

Yes, the Bugs had combat space forces.

[Demented]

The Combine's Trashuman arm is admittedly very weak (I would rather have the clone solders from Fear as my personal guard but that is another category of bang.) However though they lack faster than light (I am not sure if they truly lack it or just don't use it in the game.) But their portal tech more than makes up for that by routing their forces through the Border Worlds almost instantaneously. They are also researching localized handheld weaponized portals as seen in Valve's upcoming game Portals. If they actually manage to use those I could see some hilarious ground battles.

What supposedly makes the Combine effective is the source of their name.... Combined arms.

"The Combine [...] is successful because of its lack of specialization. It's something that no civilization has ever been able to adapt fast enough to resist, because it has [...] so many different species weaponized and co-opted for their strengths."
- Ted Backman, Half-Life 2: Raising the Bar

Naturally, the transhuman arm of the Combine is going to be awful, because humanity's strength is not in its ability to deal or resist damage. Humanity's strength is its creativity and ingenuity.... At least in the Half-Life universe.

In Star Wars, humanity's strength is that we're more numerous.
In Star Trek, humanity's strength is that we're the wisest and most morally superior.
In Lovecraftian horror, humanity's 'strength' is that we're tasty. Real tasty.

[Tor the Fallen]

Well, Tolkien's universe has a creation narration, in which everything is made by some spirits singing.

Any mythology with an omniscient, omnipotent creation deity would probably 'win'.

But I'm going to have to vote for the Cthulhu mythos. Some of the gods in that are best understood as 'cosmic laws' and not actually sentient creatures. Waging war on those creatures would be like waging war on physics.

[SITB]

"Don't you understand? With gravity slain, now we can fly!" (http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=041211)

[Who]

"There are thousands of us and only four of you."
"We could defeat you with only one Dalek."

Yeah, the Daleks win.

At everything. I mean come on! They even built the Empire State Building

[Kosmopolite]

And it was a Cyberman ship that wiped out the dinosaurs. Fact.

[Who]

Of course everyone knows that

[doliemaster]

I would just like to note that even if the star trek/wars debate is over, in an all out fight, star trek wins because they often have omnipotent races, and monsters like the giant space amoeba:smalleek: and certain races have amazingly above starwars tech.

[the_tick_rules]

i say star trek, they'd control space, and then just bomb the non-space races. Plus the Q, they could just think about it and win.

[Demented]

Red alert! Someone revived a thread!
=P

Surprising that nobody has mentioned the SupCom universe yet.

[Dhavaer]

The Q have been held hostage with a musket. Colour me unimpressed.

[dungeon_munky]

Willow beats Flitwick. Flitwick looks like a pig, and Willow's got his disappearing pig trick, along with magic acorns, crazy wands, and....French Feegle? Well, Manmardigan and the Sorceress would help him anyways, whereas Flitwick would be by himself. Yeah.

[mikeejimbo]

The Galactic Institutes beat everyone, but it takes them millions of years to do it.

And they use the most devastating weapon designed by any sentient race: bureaucracy.