Poison sadness

[GutterFace]

Is it time for D&D to do away with poison? Is it merely thematic? There are truckloads of immune creatures and some resistant.
And why does it get all the hate? Would it be easier to keep a lot of immune creatures but remove the save dc for ones that aren't?
it's not cheap, or easy to manufacture; uses an action or a rogues bonus action to apply it....so really....what is the point?

[Kryx]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?379165-MM-Resistances-Immunities-Vulnerabilities-and-Damage

About 97 creatures are immune. Most of those are constructs, undead, or angel-like creatures. Think of it like creature types from 3.X
Poison itself is also the 2nd most common damage type. I don't see the problem with resistances - it's just the fluff of the most common creatures in D&D.

Posions themselves - I would love to see them become more useful.

[GutterFace]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?379165-MM-Resistances-Immunities-Vulnerabilities-and-Damage

About 97 creatures are immune. Most of those are constructs, undead, or angel-like creatures. Think of it like creature types from 3.X
Poison itself is also the 2nd most common damage type. I don't see the problem with resistances - it's just the fluff of the most common creatures in D&D.

Posions themselves - I would love to see them become more useful.

i was hoping Poisons would apply a debuff in this series. and they would being in Venom's for damage.
or vice versa.

[archaeo]

i was hoping Poisons would apply a debuff in this series. and they would being in Venom's for damage.
or vice versa.

You could probably design a half-caster archetype pretty easily that gets a small selection of poison-themed or refluffed debuff spells. Pop it on Rogue or Fighter without too much trouble. Paladin might be a good model to follow; maybe you could turn smites into poison attacks, with spells that do the debuffery, or something?

I suspect the reason there isn't a bigger "poison minigame" is because it's added bookkeeping and accounting, in the end, for players to spend time seeking poisons out, applying poisons to their weapons, etc.

[DireSickFish]

Poison can get confusing because it's a damage type and a condition. Things that are immune to one are not always immune to the other. Heck Land druids can become immune to poison and it doesn't call out damage or condition so it must be both.

I'm trying to use the poison cantrip with my sorcerer but like -everything- is immune. Undead and constructs I get, but Chuuls like really. Very frustrating. At least fire is mostly resistances so you can get the feat to get your damage in.

[JAL_1138]

That said, on the creatures it does work on, it can be a massive damage boost for a Fighter, depending on how the DM rules (first hit only, or every hit for the 5 minutes it lasts)

[GutterFace]

That said, on the creatures it does work on, it can be a massive damage boost for a Fighter, depending on how the DM rules (first hit only, or every hit for the 5 minutes it lasts)

sadly most non EK fighter builds don't have the Int to know what monsters can and cannot be affected by poison.
unless they have endless cash for a trial and error type of approach :)

[Kryx]

That said, on the creatures it does work on, it can be a massive damage boost for a Fighter, depending on how the DM rules (first hit only, or every hit for the 5 minutes it lasts)
Poisons last 1 minute, at least the basic poison which is the main rule on that I believe.

Though I agree with Calebrus that it is RAI to last the minute until it applies at which point it doesn't apply any further.

Thread where that is argued endlessly: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?399794-Poison-rules!

[Shining Wrath]

Poison is iconic for use by assassins and add a lot of fear in low-level encounters with things like venomous snakes and spiders and what have you. It's worth keeping as a concept, and not putting too much work into it. Now if you want to break out your biology texts and start homebrewing nasty stuff, that does sound like fun ... especially the idea of poisons that affect you in other ways than HP or ability score.

There really ought to be a poison that takes away spell casting ability. It'd be how you keep wizards in prison - every pitcher of water they get has a small dose of Never Cast Poppy mixed in.

[xroads]

I suspect the reason there isn't a bigger "poison minigame" is because it's added bookkeeping and accounting, in the end, for players to spend time seeking poisons out, applying poisons to their weapons, etc.

It may also be because of perceptions about the genre. I can't think of any fantasy story where the heroes regularly wielded poison. So it's possible that the designers wanted to discourage PC's from making heavy use of it because of this.

[DireSickFish]

It may also be because of perceptions about the genre. I can't think of any fantasy story where the heroes regularly wielded poison. So it's possible that the designers wanted to discourage PC's from making heavy use of it because of this.

Garth Nix's The Seventh Tower poison plays a pivotal role in the last books climax.

[JAL_1138]

Poisons last 1 minute, at least the basic poison which is the main rule on that I believe.

Though I agree with Calebrus that it is RAI to last the minute until it applies at which point it doesn't apply any further.

Thread where that is argued endlessly: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?399794-Poison-rules!

Oh, certainly, agreed that it's the RAI for it to work on one hit, not all hits for the whole duration, and that's the only sensible way to rule it in-game IMO. But nothing afaik actually says it doesn't work on all hits for the whole minute. Hence that thread.

[Kryx]

Oh, certainly, agreed that it's the RAI for it to work on one hit, not all hits for the whole duration, and that's the only sensible way to rule it in-game IMO. But nothing afaik actually says it doesn't work on all hits for the whole minute. Hence that thread.
Correct, there are alternate interpretations. I just wanted to make it clear that some believe this is the RAI while that is the RAW. We shouldn't derail this thread to discuss it further imo. :)

[ChubbyRain]

Poison should not be a damage type. The damage type should be necrotic, and then have poison be a set of conditions.

[JAL_1138]

Poison should not be a damage type. The damage type should be necrotic, and then have poison be a set of conditions.

Not all poisons/venoms are necrotic IRL, may be why it's its own type. Many are neurotoxic/paralytic. E.G., a brown recluse bite is necrotic (damages tissue directly), but a black widow's is neurotoxic (affects nerves, and paralyzes the cardiopulmonary system).

[Easy_Lee]

Garth Nix's The Seventh Tower poison plays a pivotal role in the last books climax.

Wow, I thought I was the only one who read that series. It really went downhill after book 2, but the first was one of the first books I ever read.

On the subject of poison, the immunities are a major problem as far as actually using it. I could see designing a rogue archetype around it, gaining the ability to create its own kinds of poison, basing DC on INT and Prof, and treating immunity as resistance, resistance as normal. Beyond that, I suspect that poison will remain a fairly niche thing until some more useful, cheap options become available.

[DireSickFish]

I'm mainly surprised with how useless poison damage is due to immunities there aren't ways to have high damaging poison attacks. Fire damage is very comon as are the resistances/immunities but we have no real high damage poison spells. I guess maybe it was supposed to be the bonus damage than martial characters can easily apply/get there hands on vs fire being the easy magic damage?

[ChubbyRain]

Not all poisons/venoms are necrotic IRL, may be why it's its own type. Many are neurotoxic/paralytic. E.G., a brown recluse bite is necrotic (damages tissue directly), but a black widow's is neurotoxic (affects nerves, and paralyzes the cardiopulmonary system).

Don't care about real life. We aren't playing a simulation game but a fantasy game in which a core principal of which is simplicity.

The type of poisons that would deal damage within the D&D system (where people may or may not have the same neurological system as we do) can deal necrotic damage instead of this vague "poison damage" which I guess would look exactly the same.

All other effects, such as paralyzation, will be classified under a poison effects table or whatever. Your nervous system is being damaged, but not by HP damage but by an affect.

[Vogonjeltz]

Poison can get confusing because it's a damage type and a condition. Things that are immune to one are not always immune to the other. Heck Land druids can become immune to poison and it doesn't call out damage or condition so it must be both.

I'm trying to use the poison cantrip with my sorcerer but like -everything- is immune. Undead and constructs I get, but Chuuls like really. Very frustrating. At least fire is mostly resistances so you can get the feat to get your damage in.

Do you not fight Humans or Orcs?

[Shaofoo]

Don't care about real life. We aren't playing a simulation game but a fantasy game in which a core principal of which is simplicity.

The type of poisons that would deal damage within the D&D system (where people may or may not have the same neurological system as we do) can deal necrotic damage instead of this vague "poison damage" which I guess would look exactly the same.

All other effects, such as paralyzation, will be classified under a poison effects table or whatever. Your nervous system is being damaged, but not by HP damage but by an affect.

The problem with making all poison damage necrotic is that there is already an explanation as to what necrotic damage does as to the PHB

"Necrotic damage, dealt by certain undead and spells such as chill touch, withers matter and even the soul"

Your change might mess with the thematic protection against the undead and necromancy. The amulet useful against a wraith's attack is now also useful for a black mamba's bite.

Sure I can imagine some poisons being able to deal necrotic damage but I would put that squarely in the specialized poison category, not something that your average poisonous critter can have in them.

Also you don't seem to realize that there does exist poisons that do not deal damage at all.

Also you have to deal with the poisoned condition itself, if you change the text then you might run into the possibility where a person takes damage but not the secondary effects, of course then you might say that these corner cases get immunity to necrotic which messes with the actual thematic use for necrotic damage.

[RenaldoS]

One of the issues with poison is that it doesn’t really make sense in the context of the lightning fast combats of DnD. Poisons should be slow-acting; your enemy is able to escape but later succumbs to the poison. With the way that many groups run the game where enemies fight to the death, what is the point of poisoning your enemy so he dies tomorrow? If you want to poison his food or such, you don’t really need super complex rules and the DM can easily fiat DC 16 con save or dies or some such ruling.

[JAL_1138]

One of the issues with poison is that it doesn’t really make sense in the context of the lightning fast combats of DnD. Poisons should be slow-acting; your enemy is able to escape but later succumbs to the poison. With the way that many groups run the game where enemies fight to the death, what is the point of poisoning your enemy so he dies tomorrow? If you want to poison his food or such, you don’t really need super complex rules and the DM can easily fiat DC 16 con save or dies or some such ruling.

Once more, numerous poisons IRL are extremely fast-acting. Coneshell venom can be practically instantaneous, as can some jellyfish stings.

[Grek]

cough cough I already wrote an archtype (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19094206&postcount=2) for this cough cough

[Slipperychicken]

Poisons are still really good against things which aren't immune (like humanoids), especially if you get lots of attacks per round. And it's not like you have to use them every fight; just take them out for non-immune enemies.

[Capac Amaru]

Think about it realistically.

Most poisons are custom made for the target ie. a specific quantity of a specific poison to affect a specific target. Sometimes (like with drugs) even the specific dosage is tailored to an individual body weight and type.

'One size fits all' poison is bound to be ineffective in many cases.

Since RAW currently has very little to say on poisons, its best to work with the DM re: availability and types of poisons.

Write up a list of effects (sleep, paralysis, prone etc) and damage types (poison, acid, radiant, necrotic) and possible components (creature venom, magic potions, holy/unholy water, alchemical agents).

Ask your DM if its possible for your Assassin to work with the party cleric to create a bunch of blowpipe darts using holy water and unguents from a medicine kit that each do radiant damage and incapacitate the target for a round. Maybe it'll take half a day and 20gp, but it might be handy when you descend into the crypts beneath the church and you want to take out the undead guards quietly without alerting their master.

[ChubbyRain]

Think about it realistically.

Please don't, think of the catgirls!

[VoxRationis]

Think about it realistically.

Most poisons are custom made for the target ie. a specific quantity of a specific poison to affect a specific target. Sometimes (like with drugs) even the specific dosage is tailored to an individual body weight and type.

'One size fits all' poison is bound to be ineffective in many cases.


Poisons have a lot of variables, I'll agree, but there are a lot of broad-spectrum poisons. There aren't many creatures that can stand eating tetrodotoxin*, for example, unless the poison is very dilute indeed.

*Incidentally, there is a North American snake that can, in certain populations, consume tetrodotoxin, as an adaptation against a newt which produces it. However, the means necessary to combat its activity have a severe negative effect on reaction time and other aspects of neural function.

Also, what about catgirls? I don't follow.

[Capac Amaru]

Poisons have a lot of variables, I'll agree, but there are a lot of broad-spectrum poisons. There aren't many creatures that can stand eating tetrodotoxin*, for example, unless the poison is very dilute indeed.

*Incidentally, there is a North American snake that can, in certain populations, consume tetrodotoxin, as an adaptation against a newt which produces it. However, the means necessary to combat its activity have a severe negative effect on reaction time and other aspects of neural function.

Also, what about catgirls? I don't follow.

But it would be a woefully under prepared master of poisons who decided just one could solve all his problems. Especially when he's relying on fish poison to kill some kind of eldritch abomination.

If a player can use a poisoners kit, the DM should let him test the kit on dead enemies to work out effective new poisons for said enemies/enemy types.


Every time somebody thinks something through logically a cat girl loses an eye.

[Shaofoo]

Think about it realistically.

Most poisons are custom made for the target ie. a specific quantity of a specific poison to affect a specific target. Sometimes (like with drugs) even the specific dosage is tailored to an individual body weight and type.

'One size fits all' poison is bound to be ineffective in many cases.


Actually that is very unrealistic, I haven't heard of a case where you can only be poisoned if someone custom tailored a poison to your exact physiology (Maybe it is the case in some fantasy literature like say god slaying poison but definitely not true in real life).
The only reason I heard of the custom poison trope is because the poison itself is very rare and thus you can only make very limited quantities of it. Of course a reason you might want a specific poison is because of the increased lethality, specific effects that the poison will do or a specific way that the poison can work (one poison that I read a long time ago was actually a piece of glass that releases its poison with the sun, an assassin can stick the pane of glass in the room and when the sun comes up it will poison anyone in the room)

The only reason that you want to have a specific dose of poison to a specific individual is because you want a specific effect to happen because any less and nothing happens but any more and you run the risk of killing the person, which is how medicine actually works (see digoxin; a chemical used in the medical industry that has a very low toxicity threshold.)

Show me a poison that somehow needs the sweet spot to kill someone, where if you take in any more of the poison you aren't affected by the poison anymore.



Since RAW currently has very little to say on poisons, its best to work with the DM re: availability and types of poisons.

Write up a list of effects (sleep, paralysis, prone etc) and damage types (poison, acid, radiant, necrotic) and possible components (creature venom, magic potions, holy/unholy water, alchemical agents).


The DMG has several poisons listed with specific effects for each one. Also the cheapest one will set you back 150 gp per dose.

Poisons are the DM's purview, not the players, the DM should be the one handing you a list and saying which poisons are available and which aren't (note that the list can be null).

Ask nicely, cause he can basically shut you down without you having any say on the matter (the only poison that you might have to fall back on is the standard poison in the PHB).

Not saying that the DM isn't willing to help you out to make your own unique poisons, just that by RAW he isn't obligated to help you out either, you are at his mercy.



Ask your DM if its possible for your Assassin to work with the party cleric to create a bunch of blowpipe darts using holy water and unguents from a medicine kit that each do radiant damage and incapacitate the target for a round. Maybe it'll take half a day and 20gp, but it might be handy when you descend into the crypts beneath the church and you want to take out the undead guards quietly without alerting their master.

How would that work?

You are saying with only several gold of investment and only 12 hours of downtime you can make several blowdarts that can incapacitate at will? The cheapest poison at 150 gp only deals 6 poison damage on average and poisons you for 12 hours or makes you under the effect of a zone of truth spell (and poisons you).

Sorry but if I were a DM that will not fly, such a poison would require specific and rare components, only some hundred of gold but definitely not something that you can scrape up using your leftovers from the healer's kit and a bit of holy water.

That sounds very overpowered considering the other poison options are much more expensive



But it would be a woefully under prepared master of poisons who decided just one could solve all his problems. Especially when he's relying on fish poison to kill some kind of eldritch abomination.

I question the logic of bringing fish poison against anyone.

Of course not all poisons work on every single living thing but most poisons do the job. Of course it also stands if the eldritch abomination can even be affected by poison in the first place.

Please note that the eldritch abomination can be affected by fish poison, just that in the case of the fish with its potentially single HP he will be killed by it while with an eldritch abomination and his potential hundred of HP he will still technically take the single HP of poison damage but you will need a lot more to kill him. Maybe bring out your bigger poisons instead.

I doubt you will need to brew up a specific poison for an eldritch abomination unless you are hoping for some extra effect in doing so (make sure you talk to your DM, don't assume that you can do it on your own)


If a player can use a poisoners kit, the DM should let him test the kit on dead enemies to work out effective new poisons for said enemies/enemy types.

And how would you know if a poison is effective on a creature if the creature is dead? Don't you need the creature to be alive in order to know the lethality of a poison? Or are you trying to craft a poison that brings back the dead to life?

You do know most poisons work by disrupting the body functions of the victim, a dead victim has no body functions to disrupt.

[comk59]

Honestly, this is why we need something like Dark Heresy's GM ghide. That thing had an amazing poison system. It'd probably be decently easy to adapt actually...

[Shaofoo]

Honestly, this is why we need something like Dark Heresy's GM ghide. That thing had an amazing poison system. It'd probably be decently easy to adapt actually...

If you are the DM there is nothing stopping you from taking whatever poison system in whatever source or making up your own and building it from there. You can freely change as you see fit.

If you are a player then you are at the DM's mercy as to what you can and can't do. Maybe your DM doesn't want to use poisons because of his own reasons (the world heavily frowns on poisons as much as your standard fantasy world frowns on necromancy, the DM has bad experiences with other players wanting to use every single item as some reagent for poison and decides to just ban everything from the get go and so on) but your best bet as a player is to just ask nicely and maybe he'll allow your ideas.

[ChubbyRain]

But it would be a woefully under prepared master of poisons who decided just one could solve all his problems. Especially when he's relying on fish poison to kill some kind of eldritch abomination.

If a player can use a poisoners kit, the DM should let him test the kit on dead enemies to work out effective new poisons for said enemies/enemy types.


Every time somebody thinks something through logically a cat girl loses an eye.


Well in this case, logically by ways of realism. D&D isn't a simulation game, it is an action movie game... And although things in an Action Movie look similar to our world the setting does not follow realism or logic by way of realism all that much.

They would be very very boring if they did.

5e is a simple game where a DM has control to make it less simple.

Poison: Deals necrotic damage and/or has some effect.

This is the easiest way to deal with this issue. The damage from the poison either eats away at living tissue (much like how undead do too) or it damages you in a way that isn't represented by HP (such as a stunning/sleeping effect).

Also the "poisoned" condition is gone. This is way too vague. Have poison be a source that gives effects. This works like magic is a source that gives an effect. Elves are immune to magical sleep, but not normal sleep or poison sleep or being knocked out.

Dwarves can have advantage on saving throws from effects that come from poisons. Or something like this.

Kinda like how gnomes have advantage on int/wis/cha saves versus magic. Dwarves could have advantage on str/dex/con saves versus poison. Their body is what is resistant to poisons (liver!) but their mind may not be (neuro toxin).

Of course neurons and the brain synapses (synapsi?) may not even exist in D&D *shrug* but for those of you that want to kill catgirls...

[Shaofoo]

Poison: Deals necrotic damage and/or has some effect.

This is the easiest way to deal with this issue. The damage from the poison either eats away at living tissue (much like how undead do too) or it damages you in a way that isn't represented by HP (such as a stunning/sleeping effect).

There are ways that a poison can kill you without nercotizing tissue at all. A poison can paralyze your breathing muscles so you suffocate to death, a poison can slow your heart to a crawl or make it beat so fast that it can't pump blood effectively or even disrupt the cellular energy process.

A person that is affected by a paralyzing poison could lose HP as it becomes harder and harder to breathe. A person will feel woozy as his heart struggles to maintain adequate circulation.

Poison is fine as a damage type itself, most things that are immune to poison have no logical reason for them to be poisoned anyway, besides by your logic how would you explain poisons that affect living tissue affecting things that aren't immune to necrotic damage?
(Example look at the iron golem, immunity to poison and poisoned effects, logical as a metal construct but by your changes he will be now affected by all poisons because he isn't immune to necrotic damage. Seems to me that you will have to go back and rewrite a whole bunch of the MM just to not break verisimilitude that you can now poison a wall, not so easy of a solution.)


Also the "poisoned" condition is gone. This is way too vague. Have poison be a source that gives effects. This works like magic is a source that gives an effect. Elves are immune to magical sleep, but not normal sleep or poison sleep or being knocked out.

You have read the poisons in the DMG and poisonous attacks in the MM right?

You will realize that what you have said is already in effect by RAW, in face removing the poisoned condition is nerfing poisons because the poisoned condition gives disadvantages to ability checks and saving throws.

The poisons clearly state that while under the poisoned condition then X happens and even if it doesn't say anything it basically gives the disadvantages. A much more simple and effective system in my opinion plus I am not trying to neuter the poison.


Dwarves can have advantage on saving throws from effects that come from poisons. Or something like this.

Kinda like how gnomes have advantage on int/wis/cha saves versus magic. Dwarves could have advantage on str/dex/con saves versus poison. Their body is what is resistant to poisons (liver!) but their mind may not be (neuro toxin).

Neuro toxin affects anything that deals with the neurological tissue, including nerves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurotoxin

You can be the smartest guy in all of existence, you are not going to fare better if you get lockjaw.

So your dwarf friend is going to fare much better against a neuro toxin than your wizard friend who neglected to put points in Con in favor of maxing all the mental stats.

Mind you that psychic poisons have existed before so it does have previous precedence but these are specialized psychic poisons.

[ChubbyRain]

There are ways that a poison can kill you without nercotizing tissue at all. A poison can paralyze your breathing muscles so you suffocate to death, a poison can slow your heart to a crawl or make it beat so fast that it can't pump blood effectively or even disrupt the cellular energy process.

A person that is affected by a paralyzing poison could lose HP as it becomes harder and harder to breathe. A person will feel woozy as his heart struggles to maintain adequate circulation.

Poison is fine as a damage type itself, most things that are immune to poison have no logical reason for them to be poisoned anyway, besides by your logic how would you explain poisons that affect living tissue affecting things that aren't immune to necrotic damage?
(Example look at the iron golem, immunity to poison and poisoned effects, logical as a metal construct but by your changes he will be now affected by all poisons because he isn't immune to necrotic damage. Seems to me that you will have to go back and rewrite a whole bunch of the MM just to not break verisimilitude that you can now poison a wall, not so easy of a solution.)



You have read the poisons in the DMG and poisonous attacks in the MM right?

You will realize that what you have said is already in effect by RAW, in face removing the poisoned condition is nerfing poisons because the poisoned condition gives disadvantages to ability checks and saving throws.

The poisons clearly state that while under the poisoned condition then X happens and even if it doesn't say anything it basically gives the disadvantages. A much more simple and effective system in my opinion plus I am not trying to neuter the poison.



Neuro toxin affects anything that deals with the neurological tissue, including nerves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurotoxin

You can be the smartest guy in all of existence, you are not going to fare better if you get lockjaw.

So your dwarf friend is going to fare much better against a neuro toxin than your wizard friend who neglected to put points in Con in favor of maxing all the mental stats.

Mind you that psychic poisons have existed before so it does have previous precedence but these are specialized psychic poisons.

Everything you are saying has been addressed already. Read what I wrote before replying.

Some poisons will do and I quite myself here...

"damages you in a way that isn't represented by HP (such as a stunning/sleeping effect)."

Effects ARE damage, damage that goes around HP. Paralyzation, stun, blind, deaf, charm, and whatever else can all be effects that SPECIFIC poisons can do. You don't need a general poison effect.

Necrotic is the damage done by poisons that deal HP damage. Effects are the damage done by poisons that don't deal HP damage.

So to recap.

Some poisons deal HP damage. This damage is necrotic.

Some poisons affect a target differently. These poisons cause an effect.

There is no general "poisoned" condition. Poisons should be a specific issue not a general issue.

[Shaofoo]

Everything you are saying has been addressed already. Read what I wrote before replying.


Some poisons will do and I quite myself here...

"damages you in a way that isn't represented by HP (such as a stunning/sleeping effect)."

Effects ARE damage, damage that goes around HP. Paralyzation, stun, blind, deaf, charm, and whatever else can all be effects that SPECIFIC poisons can do. You don't need a general poison effect.


Sorry dude but effects and damage are two different beasts, by the simple fact that you can't kill someone through effects. The only condition that can kill is exhaustion, I have yet to see something that basically says that you are so paralyzed, stunned, blinded, etc that you die. Of course in real life paralysis can lead to death as I have addressed before but you can't paralyze someone to death here.

And like I said I prefer the simplicity of the general poison effect because it does everything that you want but better, or are you advocating the nerfing of poison (which you fail to address, you think poisons should not cause general disadvantages on checks and saves?)



Necrotic is the damage done by poisons that deal HP damage. Effects are the damage done by poisons that don't deal HP damage.

So how does that work with effects that heal damage? How much HP damage can you heal a paralysis or a blindness effect? Mind explaining to me how is this easier?



So to recap.

Some poisons deal HP damage. This damage is necrotic.


So you can poison a wall because the wall isn't immune to necrotic damage (which you also fail to address as well, for someone who was quick to point out that I haven't read you sure haven't addressed the bigger implications of your changes yourself, friend. Or you believe that a snake bite could bring down a wall?)


Some poisons affect a target differently. These poisons cause an effect.

There is no general "poisoned" condition. Poisons should be a specific issue not a general issue.

As I have stated because you have restated before, poison is a specific issue. Not all poisons cause the poisoned condition ( in fact the basic poison just deals extra damage), some just cause the poisoned condition (which entails disadvantage) and some also do extra things while poisoned (example: Truth serum causes you to be affected like a zone of truth while poisoned)

Why don't you pick a poison from the DMG or a poison from the MM that has an extra poisoned effect and rewrite it using your theoretical removal of the poisoned condition.

[Capac Amaru]

D&D isn't a simulation game, it is an action movie game... And although things in an Action Movie look similar to our world the setting does not follow realism or logic by way of realism all that much.

They would be very very boring if they did.

5e is a simple game where a DM has control to make it less simple.


D&D is a murder hobo simulator. 5e is a fantasy combat game/setting with a lot of potential for a DM to customize to better fit a campaign.

If I was running a game with either lots of rogue/intrigue/fantasy politics or a game with a 'master of poisons' type rogue, I'm not going to point at the rules and say here you go, two sentences to work with! I'm also not going to say RAW poison sucks, imma house rule it with a different damage type that makes the rogue sit out of every undead encounter.

I'm going to ask the rogue what they want to do, how they intend to do it, and reach a compromise within the bounds of skill level, time frame, and financial outlay.

If a rogue wants to prepare his poisons everyday like a wizard prepares his spells, that's awesome. If the BBEG is stopped mid dramatic escape by a well placed paralytic arrow, that's awesome. If a high level assassin sends an orc horde into chaos with one well placed blow dart (that dissolves on impact leaving no trace) that infects the chieftain with a disease that causes him to break out into enormous tumors over the course of the next week leading to a power struggle that ends with 3/4s of the orcs dead and the shattered horde in full retreat, that's awesome.

[Icewraith]

Actually, a long term poison that causes the poisoned condition and stacks exhaustion every [time increment] could be a useful plot device.

[ChubbyRain]

D&D is a murder hobo simulator. 5e is a fantasy combat game/setting with a lot of potential for a DM to customize to better fit a campaign.


Still not a simulation game.

D&D is a action movie table top role playing game. You can be a murder hobo if that is within the plot or reasoning but that isn't a genre specifically to simulation or action movie.

D&D takes what we consider normal and tweaks it a little bit. You then take characters and perform action and stunts that would typically murderlate a person and shrug it off.

[Capac Amaru]

Show me a poison that somehow needs the sweet spot to kill someone, where if you take in any more of the poison you aren't affected by the poison anymore.

How would that work...

I question the logic of bringing fish poison against anyone.

And how would you know if a poison is effective on a creature if the creature is dead?


This is a setting with mundane creatures, magic creatures, undead, constructs, aberrations, ethereal beings, positive and negative energy planes etc etc. If you don't select appropriate poisons then you may have little, or no effect, or even HEAL your enemy. Any assassin trained in poisons (either self taught or via guild etc) would know this.

Of course its all DM fiat, but if your DM see's and permits you to focus a character on poisons and then trololol rolls all poison resist enemies with your characters key trait flapping in the wind he's a jackass.

It would work by the DM and player looking at the character skills, experience, inventory, history, and item availability and making a call, just like anything else in the game. And it may or may not conform to what's in the DMG, so what?

Look at the environment a creature is in, and how it behaves. Is it somethings prey? Could you harvest the predators poison to poison it? Is it an apex predator? Does any of its prey attempt to defend itself with poison? What kinds of plants do animals avoid eating? Can you learn poisoning secrets from locals that deal with these creatures regularly? Have you encountered similar creatures before? There are all kinds of data points you could collect (probably a good idea to max out investigation, and multiclass ranger and maybe wizard/alchemist).

A dead specimen for research is better than no specimen.

[Shaofoo]

This is a setting with mundane creatures, magic creatures, undead, constructs, aberrations, ethereal beings, positive and negative energy planes etc etc. If you don't select appropriate poisons then you may have little, or no effect, or even HEAL your enemy. Any assassin trained in poisons (either self taught or via guild etc) would know this.


Still doesn't explain to me one actual example where you can kill someone with X amount of poison but if you use X+1 then the person is not poisoned.

Yes you can make up a fantasy poison where you can say that the poison itself is the cure but I would need a reason why would anyone use such a poison as opposed to a poison that still kills you if you put more of it in a person (bar some corner case)


Of course its all DM fiat, but if your DM see's and permits you to focus a character on poisons and then trololol rolls all poison resist enemies with your characters key trait flapping in the wind he's a jackass.

Same thing can happen when a wizard focuses on fire spells and the DM rolls all fire resistant. Maybe the DM wants an undead slaying campaign (not unheard of) but then you can create special undead slaying poison... at the DM's discretion.



It would work by the DM and player looking at the character skills, experience, inventory, history, and item availability and making a call, just like anything else in the game. And it may or may not conform to what's in the DMG, so what?

For the record the DMG basically is "Here are some suggestions but do whatever you want, these aren't hard rules to guide your game and you have final say on whatever you wish"

The only hard rules are in the PHB, everything in the DMG and MM can be added, removed and changed to the DM's desire (in fact some parts of the PHB are subject to DM change as it is RAW). You can make gold dragons be chaotic evil acid breathers in your game and no one can stop you.



Look at the environment a creature is in, and how it behaves. Is it somethings prey? Could you harvest the predators poison to poison it? Is it an apex predator? Does any of its prey attempt to defend itself with poison? What kinds of plants do animals avoid eating? Can you learn poisoning secrets from locals that deal with these creatures regularly? Have you encountered similar creatures before? There are all kinds of data points you could collect (probably a good idea to max out investigation, and multiclass ranger and maybe wizard/alchemist).

Maybe you can eke out some investigation but this in no way guarantees anything at all. Like I said, a DM might see your intentions as trying to munchkin your way into getting some free items against his will.

There is a difference between someone who is trained and ready to use poison and someone who actually investigates and researches poisons, these two don't necessarily share the same space.


A dead specimen for research is better than no specimen.

Maybe if you have a dedicated lab to test your subjects you could technically learn something but I would say it is hardly anything worthwhile. Injecting a dead body with a harmless substance or a lethal substance will result in the same effect in the end, you can't make a dead body deader

[Capac Amaru]

Still doesn't explain to me one actual example where you can kill someone with X amount of poison but if you use X+1 then the person is not poisoned.

Yes you can make up a fantasy poison where you can say that the poison itself is the cure but I would need a reason why would anyone use such a poison as opposed to a poison that still kills you if you put more of it in a person (bar some corner case)



Same thing can happen when a wizard focuses on fire spells and the DM rolls all fire resistant. Maybe the DM wants an undead slaying campaign (not unheard of) but then you can create special undead slaying poison... at the DM's discretion.




For the record the DMG basically is "Here are some suggestions but do whatever you want, these aren't hard rules to guide your game and you have final say on whatever you wish"

The only hard rules are in the PHB, everything in the DMG and MM can be added, removed and changed to the DM's desire (in fact some parts of the PHB are subject to DM change as it is RAW). You can make gold dragons be chaotic evil acid breathers in your game and no one can stop you.




Maybe you can eke out some investigation but this in no way guarantees anything at all. Like I said, a DM might see your intentions as trying to munchkin your way into getting some free items against his will.

There is a difference between someone who is trained and ready to use poison and someone who actually investigates and researches poisons, these two don't necessarily share the same space.



Maybe if you have a dedicated lab to test your subjects you could technically learn something but I would say it is hardly anything worthwhile. Injecting a dead body with a harmless substance or a lethal substance will result in the same effect in the end, you can't make a dead body deader

I don't know why you're asking me, but if you take small doses of poison over time, you can build up a resistance. If you were going to go real deep into poisons that could make for some cool house rules too.

Maybe you just want to make someone sick rather than dead, like assassinating an old king by making it seem like he's dying of old age when its actually poison.

If you tell your DM 'I'm playing a red dragonborn fire sorceror fear my flames' and then the DM only uses fire immune enemies.. TROLOLOLOL what a jerk. Can we just assume the DM knows a PC is Captain Poison and isn't running the game out of spite?

If you don't want to investigate, get in good with an assassins guild, I'm sure they'd have secret libraries full of poisons for different creatures and situations (but being able to trade your own working knowledge for access might help grease the wheels a little).

And at the most basic level, you should be able to determine if something is flammable, susceptible to acid damage, maybe holy/unholy, detect magic, etc.

[Shaofoo]

I don't know why you're asking me, but if you take small doses of poison over time, you can build up a resistance. If you were going to go real deep into poisons that could make for some cool house rules too.

That doesn't even remotely explain the first question, if you are going by order. In fact this fragment doesn't even answer any sort of my questions or concerns in this topic at all.

I'm gonna just assume that the whole "exact dose to poison, nothing more or less" is impractical in any sort of setting, real or imaginary, and lets just ignore this point and move on



If you tell your DM 'I'm playing a red dragonborn fire sorceror fear my flames' and then the DM only uses fire immune enemies.. TROLOLOLOL what a jerk. Can we just assume the DM knows a PC is Captain Poison and isn't running the game out of spite?

That depends, if the DM told out that the game was about killing undead left and right (as I said, not uncommon at all) and you still wish to play with poisons knowing full well that poisons don't affect undead at all I don't think he should change his world just to accommodate you (he could throw some living enemies maybe, not all undead armies have to be all undead just don't expect to do much poisoning).

Of course maybe the DM will let you make up undead affecting piosons but that is up to the DM to say or not.

The world should not be built so the PCs can shine all the time, especially when it runs counter to the world itself.

A druid wanting to play Aquaman and turn into aquatic creatures and summon his aquatic buddies is going to be literally dry when you are trekking an endless desert. You have to ask what kind of world this is and what kind of adventures you are going to play and then build your character from there. Maybe the DM could basically stop you and suggest a different character for you but then that might run into the DM doing what he wants and not what the player wants. Maybe the DM thinks it is easier that you choose your character and deal with the problems than confronting you at character creation.


If you don't want to investigate, get in good with an assassins guild, I'm sure they'd have secret libraries full of poisons for different creatures and situations (but being able to trade your own working knowledge for access might help grease the wheels a little).

That is one very massive assumption to make.

You are assuming that an assassin's guild even exists in the world you are in, that assassin's guilds have extensive knowledge about poisons (instead of just a bunch of guys that can kill stuff really good, there are a trillion ways to kill someone without the use of poisons or even weapons.) and that even if such a guild exists that you can even find them and bargain with them (I sincerely doubt you will have some hidden knowledge that this advanced studious assassin's guild won't have and that they are willing to give you full unrestricted access to their information vaults, especially when it is you that initiated the bargain and they had no desire before you came along).

You have a massive uphill battle ahead of your if you realistically want some secret info.


And at the most basic level, you should be able to determine if something is flammable, susceptible to acid damage, maybe holy/unholy, detect magic, etc.

Uhhh... okay.

Now tell me again how does this help with identifying the lethal potential of a poison with a corpse?