Beguiler Conversion / Update for Pathfinder

[SA HnK416]

The Beguiler was one of my favorite classes back when I played 3.5 and ever since my gaming group switched to Pathfinder I've been wanting to do a proper conversion for it, which a friend of mine and I have finally done. Originally, it was going to be a bare-bones conversion but we both decided that doing it that way would leave the class vastly under powered, so we changed around a few existing abilities and added in a few that, we hope, are in line with the classes themes and intended use. Obviously there's still some work to be done, the bulk of it being in converting the spell list, but we wanted to get some feedback before doing any more tweaks.
Comments, opinions, criticism, and advise are welcome!

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wW1YKVYszZ3N582vYZeegmYmBnV4KASTdExaDskANcc

[Ilorin Lorati]

You straight copied the text over, which included a truncated URL that produces an error instead of taking you to the proper page.

Reposting this here:


A few things of note:


Pathfinder didn't just bump HD size, it tied HD-size in with BAB quality. From the original conversion guide (http://paizo.com/products/btpy89m6?Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game-Conversion-Guide):

The first step is to ensure that the class’s Hit Dice and base attack progression match. If the class has a slow base attack progression (such as the wizard), it should use d6s for Hit Dice. Classes with the medium progression (such as clerics) should use d8s for Hit Dice, while those with a fast progression (such as fighters) should use d10s. As a general rule, if the class did not have a d12 Hit Die in 3.5, it should not get one in the Pathfinder RPG.
If you want to give them a larger HD size, you should give them a higher BAB. If you don't want to do the latter, give them a defensive ability such as Evasion or something more interesting.
You have a dead level at either 16th or 17th, depending on what you do with spell progression.
+5 to the DC is a lot. At the numbers it provides, even a top level mythic/epic monster will be able to be readily shut down by a beguiler without and tricks. When even Cthulhu drops half the time to save-or-suck spells without any serious optimization, eyebrows should be raised.
A capstone with a per-day limit is pretty disappointing. As you have it written, they're already sacrificing two spell slots - why limit it per day?

[SA HnK416]

Sorry, I haven't really used these forums much before. What should I have done instead?

[Ilorin Lorati]

The specifics don't matter, so long as links are properly copied. The easiest way to get all the formatting of a post is to hit the edit button and copy it from there.

You can also report your own posts and ask to be moved into appropriate sections; that's probably what should have been done in this case.

[SA HnK416]

I've fixed the link in my post and reported the other one.

A few things of note:

Pathfinder didn't just bump HD size, it tied HD-size in with BAB quality. From the original conversion guide:
Quote Originally Posted by Paizo Pathfinder Conversion Guide
The first step is to ensure that the class’s Hit Dice and base attack progression match. If the class has a slow base attack progression (such as the wizard), it should use d6s for Hit Dice. Classes with the medium progression (such as clerics) should use d8s for Hit Dice, while those with a fast progression (such as fighters) should use d10s. As a general rule, if the class did not have a d12 Hit Die in 3.5, it should not get one in the Pathfinder RPG.
If you want to give them a larger HD size, you should give them a higher BAB. If you don't want to do the latter, give them a defensive ability such as Evasion or something more interesting.
You have a dead level at either 16th or 17th, depending on what you do with spell progression.
+5 to the DC is a lot. At the numbers it provides, even a top level mythic/epic monster will be able to be readily shut down by a beguiler without and tricks. When even Cthulhu drops half the time to save-or-suck spells without any serious optimization, eyebrows should be raised.
A capstone with a per-day limit is pretty disappointing. As you have it written, they're already sacrificing two spell slots - why limit it per day?:

Seeing as literally everywhere I've posted this conversion I'm met with the same response regarding the HD, I will probably be changing it. Personally, I feel like they do need an HD increase over a Sorc/Wiz, but they also defiantly do not need a 15/10/5 BaB, so I don't know. It's just simply not a major issue for me.

The class gets an 8th level spell at both 16th and 17th level so I wouldn't call them dead-levels, but I do feel like there should be something there.

I went with the gradual increase for Cloaked Casting because I felt like the original class ability was poorly done. Originally it gives +1 to DC at 2nd level, +2 to overcome SR at 8th, at 14th the bonus to the DC increases to +2, and at 20th level it lets them automatically overcome SR. It goes from mildly useful for 19 levels to insane at 20th. I'm totally open to suggestions for revisions to the current ability if you think it needs it.

I went with the per-day limit simply because I thought that the ability was powerful enough to warrant it, though now I'm reconsidering it. What I'm thinking is making the first part of the ability an unlimited one and maybe changing the second part to a per-day that doesn't use a 9th level spell slot. Again, any suggestions are welcome.

[Glimmer]

If you're looking for a beguiler conversion, I'd heartily recommend this one (https://bit.ly/pathfinderbeguiler). I just started playing a beguiler using that version and I'm having an absolute blast.

[SA HnK416]

If you're looking for a beguiler conversion, I'd heartily recommend this one (https://bit.ly/pathfinderbeguiler). I just started playing a beguiler using that version and I'm having an absolute blast.

I know of that one but personally, I feel like a lot of it really misses some points of the original class. It's a very well done conversion, has a lot of effort put in to it and has a bunch of really interesting features, but to me it just doesn't feel like a Beguiler.

Which would explain why me and a friend are making our own conversion :V

[Haruki-kun]

Ok, closed the other thread in favour of this one. For future reference, yes, you can just report your own thread and we'll move it to the correct section. No big deal, though.

Welcome to the Playground, carry on.

[Ilorin Lorati]

If you want them to be a bit more durable, you can certainly add a class feature for it without increasing their HD size. Off the top of my head, they could have one of the following:


A free Blur effect a few minutes per day.
A free low power (read: single image) Mirror image at the start of each combat.


The level 20 SR overcoming capstone was really strong, but at the same time it was a capstone at a level where everything and it's mother had SR, and bluff DC's high enough that a few demigods couldn't talk it down. It was more meant to reduce the sheer amount of time spent rolling extra dice than making the class more powerful.

People don't really think about it, but +1 and +2 is useful at basically all levels. It may be lackluster, but as long as you're in the 20 point range that a given modified roll would land in it would always help you. You don't really need to make it even more powerful at higher levels.

[SA HnK416]

I've been considering giving the class either Evasion or Uncanny Dodge but I'm still on the fence about it. The suggestions about Blur and Mirror Image do sound neat though and if you want to hash ideas about a proper class ability for those I'd be more than willing to chat about it.

Regarding the Cloaked Casting, I really hadn't thought of it that way but that might be because I've never really played level 20 characters. As is, what I've done is change it to a max bonus of +4 at 17th level and I'm considering switching back to the original version of the class, though I suppose the only way to tell which would be more balanced would be through playtesting? I dunno.

Since we've gotten some flak concerning the Arcane Deceit ability, what are y'alls opinions on it? A few people have said it wasn't enough and a few have said it's far too much.

[Travvy James]

but to me it just doesn't feel like a Beguiler.

Is that why your conversion borrows so much from the one glimmer linked to?

[SA HnK416]

Is that why your conversion borrows so much from the one glimmer linked to?

I...don't quite get what you mean by that. The two share similarities because they're both conversions of the same class. I can promise you that neither of the two people involved with this class conversion used that one as a reference point.

[Travvy James]

I...don't quite get what you mean by that. The two share similarities because they're both conversions of the same class. I can promise you that neither of the two people involved with this class conversion used that one as a reference point.

Muffled incantations, hand signs and their variations ape the enchanted casting ability pretty hard. The second effect of the capstone is also pretty blatantly copied from the fidget's manifestation of nothingness spell. One duplicated ability could be a coincidence, two is awfully suspicious.

[SA HnK416]

Muffled incantations, hand signs and their variations ape the enchanted casting ability pretty hard. The second effect of the capstone is also pretty blatantly copied from the fidget's manifestation of nothingness spell. One duplicated ability could be a coincidence, two is awfully suspicious.

I hope you will believe me when I say it really is coincidence! Until a day or two ago we hadn't seen that updated version of the conversion!
The last time I personally looked at it, it still had the Apostay stuff and no Archetypes. I promise, I'm being 100% honest here. I didn't come up with the original idea for Muffled Incantations and Hand Signs, the other person did, so I can't confirm that they didn't take inspiration from it but the second effect of Paragon of Deceit was thought up by me and him on the spot a night or so ago. The first part I will admit was inspired from another conversion we saw a year or so ago but it definitely wasn't the one Glimmer linked.

Edit: I just called up my friend about it and he said he didn't know that the conversion that ertw (I think that's the name) did even had something like MI and HS. He came up with those abilities about a year ago when we first started ******* around with the idea and looking back at the PDF of the conversion of theirs I have, the Enchanted Casting ability listed isn't anything like its current version.

I know it sounds weird but honestly this is just one hell of a coincidence.

[Travvy James]

The idea that it's just a coincidence kind of strains credulity with the rate at which your story has changed over the past few hours.


I know of that one but personally, I feel like a lot of it really misses some points of the original class. It's a very well done conversion, has a lot of effort put in to it and has a bunch of really interesting features, but to me it just doesn't feel like a Beguiler.

Which would explain why me and a friend are making our own conversion :V

Here you're claiming you've seen the conversion, but it wasn't to your taste so you had to make your own conversion.


I...don't quite get what you mean by that. The two share similarities because they're both conversions of the same class. I can promise you that neither of the two people involved with this class conversion used that one as a reference point.

Here you're claiming you weren't aware of the particulars of the conversion.


I hope you will believe me when I say it really is coincidence! Until a day or two ago we hadn't seen that updated version of the conversion!
The last time I personally looked at it, it still had the Apostay stuff and no Archetypes. I promise, I'm being 100% honest here. I didn't come up with the original idea for Muffled Incantations and Hand Signs, the other person did, so I can't confirm that they didn't take inspiration from it but the second effect of Paragon of Deceit was thought up by me and him on the spot a night or so ago. The first part I will admit was inspired from another conversion we saw a year or so ago but it definitely wasn't the one Glimmer linked.

And here you say while you were putting together the conversion you had only seen a version from over a year ago (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qmqe&page=2?Beguiler-conversion-for-Pathfinder#55) while also admitting the capstone was inspired by something you saw a year ago (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qmqe&page=4?Beguiler-conversion-for-Pathfinder#154).

With the speed at which you're flip flopping on whether or not you've seen the conversion it's kind of hard to give you the benefit of the doubt.

[SA HnK416]

The idea that it's just a coincidence kind of strains credulity with the rate at which your story has changed over the past few hours.



Here you're claiming you've seen the conversion, but it wasn't to your taste so you had to make your own conversion.



Here you're claiming you weren't aware of the particulars of the conversion.



And here you say while you were putting together the conversion you had only seen a version from over a year ago (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qmqe&page=2?Beguiler-conversion-for-Pathfinder#55) while also admitting the capstone was inspired by something you saw a year ago (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qmqe&page=4?Beguiler-conversion-for-Pathfinder#154).

With the speed at which you're flip flopping on whether or not you've seen the conversion it's kind of hard to give you the benefit of the doubt.

I feel like this is the result of some miscommunication and fumbling on my part, sorry. To clear things up:

We both first saw the conversion that ertw did when it was in it's second draft. At that point, Enchanted Casting wasn't what it is now (all it did was give a +1 bonus to the DC of spells when using them as part of another class ability) and 'fidget's manifestation of nothingness' wasn't a spell. After that we basically ignored/forgot about it until a few days ago when we both started working on our conversion again and at that time we looked and saw that it had gotten significant updates. However, at least in my case, all I did was give it a passing glance. When I said that we didn't use it as a reference, I was meaning the 2nd draft of it, not the new one.

The other conversion that I mentioned wasn't even one done by ertw and I would give you an author's name for it but the pdf of it that I have doesn't list one. Admittedly, we borrowed the 'Manipulator' and the first part of the capstone ability from that one, mostly because they're both very good and fit with the class and at the time we weren't planning on showing it to anyone outside of our own PF groups so we didn't think it'd matter too much. Since then we have changed up some of the first part of the capstone, though and thinking on it now I'm considering asking him if he wants to do away with those parts and instead come up with something else.

I hope this clears everything up.

[Travvy James]

I hope this clears everything up.

Okay, so the only part of this conversion that you guys didn't insipidly copy and paste from PHBII or steal from better conversions is the blatantly OP arcane deceit ability. Yeah, that's pretty clear.

[SA HnK416]

I really wish I had a response other than "I'm sorry you seem to dislike it so much" but I don't.