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View Full Version : Whats up with the Matrix?



Lord Tataraus
2007-04-21, 11:18 PM
No, not the movies, the internet of the "future" in various games such as Cyberpunk 2020 and Shadowrun.


Why do I want to hook myself up to a hunk of metal charged with a couple amps just to surf the web or to hack a bank, corporation, what have you? I would rather sit in front of a laptop absorbing minute radiation from my screen to do the same thing. This way, the worst that can happen is the computer gets fried. "crap, $4,000 down the drain just for hacking into the stupid corporation security network. Guess I'll go to the local computer store to get another." Whereas, with the Matrix, my brain gets fried. "crap, our hacker who wasted years of his young life perfecting his skills down the drain just for hacking into the stupid corporation security network. Guess we're screwed."


That's better. So, does anyone use some sort of alternate system (instead of the Matrix) that they use in such games, but still makes the hacker have to do more than "alright, I hack in, run some programs, done."?

Vyker
2007-04-21, 11:27 PM
Umm... the in-game response is that your mind/computer combo can function faster than you looking at a screen and typing away. If speed's the name of the game, a little brain damage is a small price to pay.

And on the bright side, if you screw up, you'll never know...

System-wise, you could check out the rules for Otaku in Shadowrun. It's been awhile since I've looked at them, but their big advantage was the ability to just cruise the net without being wired up to it.

Zincorium
2007-04-21, 11:28 PM
Generally, I've seen in games I've been in that when only one person in the party is good at hacking, it takes time away from everyone else while they and the DM run it alone. This is okay once or twice, but if it happens every game it can be much more annoying than a simple "you make the computer skill check, you now have the passwords".

If the rest of the party can come along and actually mean something, then it's not a problem.

And as far as the matrix thing goes, I'd say it's all about immersion and the rate of data exchange. Viewing the scene on a monitor isn't going to be as big of an experience as having the full five senses engaged in what's going on in the virtual world, and thus your reaction times when viewing a monitor are going to be slower. Also, while automation might make it unnecessary, I'd think that the input of data through a keyboard and mouse would be viewed as an outdated, easily hackable piece of gear.

Brain-frying wise, you'd almost certainly have a filter that both stops overly powerful signals and random noise. If you think they'll surgically install I/O ports into your skull and not include a myriad of safety devices, then you've forgotten the concept of families suing for damages. As has been proven time and time again, if the company should have prevented you from doing something stupid, and doesn't, your relatives will probably win. The corps don't like paying out for that, chummer.

Skjaldbakka
2007-04-21, 11:58 PM
Brain-frying wise, you'd almost certainly have a filter that both stops overly powerful signals and random noise. If you think they'll surgically install I/O ports into your skull and not include a myriad of safety devices, then you've forgotten the concept of families suing for damages. As has been proven time and time again, if the company should have prevented you from doing something stupid, and doesn't, your relatives will probably win. The corps don't like paying out for that, chummer.


But isn't the base-line assumption in shadowrun that the characters are beneath the system and probably got their implants from some hack-job with no medical license who got the parts when they fell off a truck?

"Disemboweling in your species- fatal or non-fatal?" A Zoidberg reference seemed appropriate at this point.

Zincorium
2007-04-22, 12:14 AM
But isn't the base-line assumption in shadowrun that the characters are beneath the system and probably got their implants from some hack-job with no medical license who got the parts when they fell off a truck?

"Disemboweling in your species- fatal or non-fatal?" A Zoidberg reference seemed appropriate at this point.

I got the impression that most decent hackers were either implanted by the military or they go to an organized crime organization and pay the cost to use their resources. If you trust your brain to someone who isn't licensed, you're probably going to die either from a botched surgery (you don't lose a medical license for doing things the right way) or resulting infection and get removed from the pool of hacking talent.

But really, what corporation would risk getting a reputation for implants that let people get fried? Commercial cyberware seems like it would require a spotless rep to stay in business, because people are scared of the possibility of getting turned into a vegetable.

Hunter Noventa
2007-04-22, 12:21 AM
In Cyberpunk 2020, therre was actually an allowance for using a keyboard. It simply slowed your reaction time (gave an initiative penalty) during net combat.

That might be an acceptable alternative, as well as limiting the things one can do without jacking directly in.

Vyker
2007-04-22, 01:11 AM
Now that I think of it, I think Shadowrun also does have "Hacking for non-deckers (folks who plug in)" rules. You suck, though, but it's there. I'll see if I can get a page number for you.


But isn't the base-line assumption in shadowrun that the characters are beneath the system and probably got their implants from some hack-job with no medical license who got the parts when they fell off a truck?

Eh. It can be. But professional shadowrunning is such a high-stakes game that nobody worth the nuyen is gonna just let any wack-job hack open their brain and start rooting around. The game has rules for that if that's the direction you really want to take, but there are plenty of options for classy runner with money to burn (and the good ones do) who want trustworthy, state of the art (SotA! Have you met your SotA today?) machines installed in their meatbodies.

I guess it all depends on the style of your game. At least in the ones I run in, you can get the good stuff from trustworthy docs. It may cost you extra, but when I can drop twelve guys in under three seconds flat on a bad day, pistols only and no 'splosive toys, well, that's money well spent.

(it's also the best expression ever on the GM's face!)

SMDVogrin
2007-04-22, 02:49 AM
Now that I think of it, I think Shadowrun also does have "Hacking for non-deckers (folks who plug in)" rules. You suck, though, but it's there. I'll see if I can get a page number for you.

See also the history of Echo Mirage. They were the group that first used the early prototype Cyberdeck technology, and they were capable of cutting through _all_ the existing security measures that were perfectly functional against non-decking attacks.

"Eighteen minutes after engaging the virus, four members of Echo Mirage were dead. When the data logs were analyzed, two things became apparent: First, the virus program could induce lethal biofeedback in humans accessing the Matrix. Second, no existing computer security could even slow down someone using a cyberterminal." (emphasis mine)

Zorg
2007-04-22, 07:22 AM
In Cyberpunk 2020, therre was actually an allowance for using a keyboard. It simply slowed your reaction time (gave an initiative penalty) during net combat.

That might be an acceptable alternative, as well as limiting the things one can do without jacking directly in.

There was also Gloves 'n' Goggles (Chrome 2 I think) - faster than a keyboard but not as fast as jacking in. There were rules somewhere for 'dropping' daemons into the net for simple hacks.

And getting your brain fried is the risk of the skills, just like getting shot for a solo.

Roderick_BR
2007-04-22, 01:04 PM
In some cases, for the total immersion. One thing is to play Never Winter Nights, clicking a mouse and looking at a computer screen, the other is to play a "Dot Hack" like game, where it looks like you are actually there.

Jacob_Gallagher
2007-04-22, 01:12 PM
Whoo! Mr. Plug & Play! Picks up random electronics, and shoves them in his head!

I think there are ways to have interesting hacking. Look at the game Uplink.

Dragonmuncher
2007-04-22, 05:23 PM
Reminds me of this:

http://www.pbfcomics.com/?cid=PBF055AD-Game_System.jpg#124

Lord Tataraus
2007-04-22, 08:35 PM
Well, sure they have safety measures for jacking in, but the fact that most hackers did not have the means to get safety measures like that with starting money makes it more of an issue. Then if so many people an getting the most popular safety gear, some one will come up with a virus to bypass it all. And from a personal perspective, if I lived in a time in which jacking in was possible, I would not trust it and I'm sure many would not either. Only the complete nuts (who you are supposed to be) would even consider it, but then I think that reacting slower is better than risk getting fried. Plus, if you want speed, why don't you just have a program that hacks for you and you only monitor its high-speed progress, jumping in only when needed?

Mewtarthio
2007-04-22, 09:05 PM
And from a personal perspective, if I lived in a time in which jacking in was possible, I would not trust it and I'm sure many would not either. Only the complete nuts (who you are supposed to be) would even consider it, but then I think that reacting slower is better than risk getting fried.

Back in the eighteenth century: "Oh, I have read those stories of the heavier-than-air flying machines. I think they're perfectly dreadful. If I lived in a world with such abominations, I certainly would not trust them, as would any man whose brains had not been addled. We have quite servicable sea-going vessels right now, and the inability to move above the land is surely nothing compared to the risk of simply falling out of the sky."

SMDVogrin
2007-04-22, 11:25 PM
Well, sure they have safety measures for jacking in, but the fact that most hackers did not have the means to get safety measures like that with starting money makes it more of an issue. Then if so many people an getting the most popular safety gear, some one will come up with a virus to bypass it all. And from a personal perspective, if I lived in a time in which jacking in was possible, I would not trust it and I'm sure many would not either. Only the complete nuts (who you are supposed to be) would even consider it, but then I think that reacting slower is better than risk getting fried. Plus, if you want speed, why don't you just have a program that hacks for you and you only monitor its high-speed progress, jumping in only when needed?

Well, in Shadowrun at least, the only thing that "fries your brain" is Black ICE, which is expensive and rare. Moreover, legitimate users (and weenie Deckers) operate in "Cold ASIST", rather than "Hot ASIST", mode -- Black ICE is only _lethal_ against those using Hot ASIST. If you keep your deck to cold mode (which anyone can do, indeed it's enabling a deck to go hot that costs extra), you are perfectly safe from anything more than unconsciousness.

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-22, 11:47 PM
Lets see, lots of things to say.


No, not the movies, the internet of the "future" in various games such as Cyberpunk 2020 and Shadowrun.


Why do I want to hook myself up to a hunk of metal charged with a couple amps just to surf the web or to hack a bank, corporation, what have you?
You don't. SR has augmented reality which uses image projectors and gloves. It is the best form for non hackers to be in and do to a rules oversight it can also be potentially better for hacking as well.


I would rather sit in front of a laptop absorbing minute radiation from my screen to do the same thing. This way, the worst that can happen is the computer gets fried. "crap, $4,000 down the drain just for hacking into the stupid corporation security network. Guess I'll go to the local computer store to get another."
Yes, but with the computer and a keyboard/mouse interface you wont' be able to hack a 90 year old, almost luddite, person's system with a rating 1 firewall.

For a real life comparison, imagine trying to hack some crap ass firewall today with a punch card computer. You just can't do it in any reasonable amount of time or with any reasonable chance of success. Trying to hack stuff with a laptop in SR 4 would be about the same difficulty.


Whereas, with the Matrix, my brain gets fried. "crap, our hacker who wasted years of his young life perfecting his skills down the drain just for hacking into the stupid corporation security network. Guess we're screwed."

Only idiots running hot in systems with black ice run the risk of brain damage.



[quote=SMDVogrin;2449558]See also the history of Echo Mirage. They were the group that first used the early prototype Cyberdeck technology, and they were capable of cutting through _all_ the existing security measures that were perfectly functional against non-decking attacks.

"Eighteen minutes after engaging the virus, four members of Echo Mirage were dead. When the data logs were analyzed, two things became apparent: First, the virus program could induce lethal biofeedback in humans accessing the Matrix. Second, no existing computer security could even slow down someone using a cyberterminal." (emphasis mine)

To the OP: See this post. If top of the lien milspec firewalls made pre cyberterminal can't even slow down a hacker then why do you expect someone running a laptop to be able to defeat stuff coded to beat users who operate at the speed of thought.


Well, sure they have safety measures for jacking in, but the fact that most hackers did not have the means to get safety measures like that with starting money makes it more of an issue.
Programming them yourself is easy. And they aren't that expensive.


Then if so many people an getting the most popular safety gear, some one will come up with a virus to bypass it all. And from a personal perspective, if I lived in a time in which jacking in was possible, I would not trust it and I'm sure many would not either. Only the complete nuts (who you are supposed to be) would even consider it, but then I think that reacting slower is better than risk getting fried.
I woudl be in full VR for almost all programming and hacking. Do you have any idea what the speed and ability difference between the 2 would be?


Plus, if you want speed, why don't you just have a program that hacks for you and you only monitor its high-speed progress, jumping in only when needed?

Because you literally can't type fast enough to jump in. The programs are running at say 60 MPH while you are running along at maybe 10 miles per hour. By the time you recognize a problem, come up with a solution, and input it the problem is already long gone and the next one is just appearing.

Dervag
2007-04-23, 12:02 AM
But isn't the base-line assumption in shadowrun that the characters are beneath the system and probably got their implants from some hack-job with no medical license who got the parts when they fell off a truck?Yeah, but no sane person will buy the implant without a surge protector. I'd rather keep flipping burgers for the rest of my life than install unstable hardware inside my skull with nothing in place to protect me if it freaks out.


Back in the eighteenth century: "Oh, I have read those stories of the heavier-than-air flying machines. I think they're perfectly dreadful. If I lived in a world with such abominations, I certainly would not trust them, as would any man whose brains had not been addled. We have quite servicable sea-going vessels right now, and the inability to move above the land is surely nothing compared to the risk of simply falling out of the sky."The analogy holds up to a point.

First of all, an 18th-century person did know and accept the risk that his ship would be sunk or that he'd fall off a horse and die. Those were known risks, and they were bigger than the risks of air travel. Air travel did not create new risks that were more likely to kill you.

Second of all, modern air travel comes with an arsenal of safety features. Just like those 18th-century people, modern people would be very reluctant to fly on an airplane that had a real risk of falling out of the sky every time it went up. Only because the odds of crashing are negligible do normal people choose to travel by air.

If we posit neural interface technology, we have to assume that there will be safety features built into the product. Even if I get the implant because it fell off the back of a truck, that implant would have considerable safety protocols built into the unit. It would be designed so that shocks, computer crashes, and so forth could not cross over into the organic brain.


To the OP: See this post. If top of the lien milspec firewalls made pre cyberterminal can't even slow down a hacker then why do you expect someone running a laptop to be able to defeat stuff coded to beat users who operate at the speed of thought.Ironically, the speed of thought isn't as fast as people think. Neural impulses don't travel very quickly through the human brain; we just never notice the lag times because the brain is physically small and because we are incapable of perceiving the time it takes for a thought to cross our own brains.

TheOOB
2007-04-23, 12:25 AM
Remember, cyberpunk is high technology, low-life. In such settings profit and efficiency are much higher priorities then silly things like safty and humanity.

Scientist: Sir, or studies have shown that we can get a 150% increase to production with a direct neural connection then with physical user input but...

CEO: Great, send out a memo that all employees must use their computers with a direct neural connection

Scientist: but Sir! half of all subjects who undergo the process die!

CEO: I am not seeing a problum, we lose half out work force, but our remaining half works over twice as well, more work for less pay...

and so on.

In shadowrun at least its established that the proceedure to install a datajack is so commonplace that even a hack can do it fairly safely, and if you dont want surgery just get a trode net, they dont suffer any real lose of speed anymore. Sure your brain might get fried, but thats a small price to pay for a bit more speed.

Rob Knotts
2007-04-23, 12:26 AM
Yeah, but no sane person will buy the implant without a surge protector. I'd rather keep flipping burgers for the rest of my life than install unstable hardware inside my skull with nothing in place to protect me if it freaks out.Sanity and lethal stupidity are not mutually exclusive.

Lord Tataraus
2007-04-23, 06:00 AM
Well, in Shadowrun at least, the only thing that "fries your brain" is Black ICE, which is expensive and rare. Moreover, legitimate users (and weenie Deckers) operate in "Cold ASIST", rather than "Hot ASIST", mode -- Black ICE is only _lethal_ against those using Hot ASIST. If you keep your deck to cold mode (which anyone can do, indeed it's enabling a deck to go hot that costs extra), you are perfectly safe from anything more than unconsciousness.

Ah, well I am not that familiar with Shadow seeing as I've never played it or seen any books. I only know what I pick up from the internet which does give such specifics. So, what exactly does cold and hot ASIST do? I don't think it exists in cyberpunk (at least as far as I can tell).

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-23, 07:47 AM
Hot gives you an extra initiative pass but lets Black Ice be lethal.

Indon
2007-04-23, 08:20 AM
If you're interested in a safer access terminal style for hackers, design one.

Rather than a direct neural interface, utilize a VR interface, and utilize a host of semi-intelligent assistant programs to compensate for the loss of I/O. That way, your avatar turns out to be more a well-armed puppet than anything capable of good reactions, but at least frying it doesn't harm you (and arguably it's much less tracable also).

It'd be like running extra-cold.

Grey Paladin
2007-04-23, 08:30 AM
Read Neuromancer (written by the father of Cyberpunk- William Gibson) and all shall be made clear.

Lapak
2007-04-23, 10:18 AM
First of all, an 18th-century person did know and accept the risk that his ship would be sunk or that he'd fall off a horse and die. Those were known risks, and they were bigger than the risks of air travel. Air travel did not create new risks that were more likely to kill you.Sure it did: falling was a far different threat than being becalmed or sinking or falling off a horse. Powered flight was the first travel method where merely ceasing to move was potentially lethal.
Second of all, modern air travel comes with an arsenal of safety features. Just like those 18th-century people, modern people would be very reluctant to fly on an airplane that had a real risk of falling out of the sky every time it went up. Only because the odds of crashing are negligible do normal people choose to travel by air.This is actually why the analogy does hold. All of those safety features work almost 100% of the time, and so people fly around safely. The only people who are at significant risk while flying are fighter and bomber pilots and such, who have to worry about anti-air missles and their counterparts on the other side, which bypass all of those protections. If you choose to fly in a commercial airplane instead of a military fighter jet, you're probably not going to be shot down. But you're not going to be flying any missions deep into enemy territory at Mach 2 either.