Charisma - an underpowered ability

[Teilos]

In my groups I have seen a trend to dump charisma even for diplomatic characters and compensate that with int.

Think of a commoner. Each ability gives them some bonuses.

All improve some skills.
Additional:
Str: melee attack and damge
Dex: ranged attacks and AC and saves
Con: Hitpoints and saves
Int: Skill Points
Wis: saves
Cha : ?

I know that depending on your class the later attributes might be of great use. Still, Int and Wis perform much better than Charisma in my opinion (though Wis is also a little bit underpowered in my opinion).


Now I would like to know, whether you think that charisma is underpowered. And, if you houseruled some special use of charisma to make it more attractive for all the other classes.


My first idea (please state an opinion):

Feat: Arcane Resistance (Edit: weaker version)
Receive your Charisma modifier (maximum +2) as a bonus on Saving Throws vs. Spells & Spell-like effects.
This feat may be taken multiple times, each time the maximum increases by 2.
Special:
This feat does not stack with any other effects that let you add your charisma modifier to saves.
If you are casting using charisma as your casting attribute, your resistance is disturbed. The first time you take the feat it has a maximum of +1 and this maximum is only raised by 1 for each additional time you take this feat.


EDIT:
The timelimit prevented me from adding a poll (to much time used up by the lenght limit).

Here is the poll:
Do you think Charisma is underpowered?
Options:
1. No, it is overpowered.
2. No, it is fine.
3. Yes, it is underpowered.
4. Yes =>We use a houserule.

Please state the number in your post.

[Last_resort_33]

What about actually talking to people, what about actually doing some roleplaying, what about sorcerers and bards (ok, maybe not sorcerers and bards) Diplomacy and Bluff can get you out of many situations and win encounters before they even get violent.

ah well, you could also look at the Feat that I just posted (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41743) if you want any more uses for charisma... I think that your suggested feat might be a little overpowered, but I'll let the other people on the board be the judge of that

[Catch]

Charisma does tend to be a dump stat, especially when you can roleplay your way through most social interactions. Your average warrior isn't going to be much of a diplomat, nor are wizards generally genial and friendly. On the whole, it's not very important, but for the classes that use it, it's okay.

In regards to the feat, that's kind of like giving away Divine Grace for free.

[Pink]

2

Sure, charisma is a bit of a dump stat, and it doesn't have too many uses. However, there is nothing to suggest that it needs more uses either. When i see this, it reminds me of the class reworking thread somebody started that essentially tried downsizing cleric and wizarding and buffing up classes considered underpowered. There seems to be this urge within some that everything must balance out. Well, they don't. CHA is fine as the slightly less useful of the stats, partly because it fits with some of the classes anyway. Barbs aren't going to be pleasent on the yes, Fighters might be a rowdy bunch of ruffians, wizards hermits that don't operate on the same mental level as others, and even if this is not in fact true, it can still be the stereotype that follows them and would hamper CHA anyway.

[Last_resort_33]

2

Sure, charisma is a bit of a dump stat, and it doesn't have too many uses. However, there is nothing to suggest that it needs more uses either. When i see this, it reminds me of the class reworking thread somebody started that essentially tried downsizing cleric and wizarding and buffing up classes considered underpowered. There seems to be this urge within some that everything must balance out. Well, they don't. CHA is fine as the slightly less useful of the stats, partly because it fits with some of the classes anyway. Barbs aren't going to be pleasent on the yes, Fighters might be a rowdy bunch of ruffians, wizards hermits that don't operate on the same mental level as others, and even if this is not in fact true, it can still be the stereotype that follows them and would hamper CHA anyway.


Yeah... there's nothing wrong with people dumping charisma... I know that it's MY dump stat!

[Roderick_BR]

There are enough classes that require An average or good charisma, like Paladin, bards, sorcerers, and occasionally, clerics.
In Dungeon Master 2, there are some magic effects for weapons called "surge", and most of them are charisma based.
And finally, I noticed that there are more charisma based skills than any other, even intelligence.
It's not really underpowered, you and your group just doesn't use it much.

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

I think a good DM can make it so a good charisma score will be useful. Really, skill ranks in diplomacy isn't enough for me, if you're not charasmatic, you're not going to attract attention. With full ranks in diplomacy or bluff, you might be able to talk circles around someone, but good luck getting them to talk to you in the first place.

[crazedloon]

Well think in a real life situtation charasmia (good looks and smooth talking) can only get you so far. Look at James Bond (very stereo typical but its the best I can think of) He obviously has a high charisma but realy when it comes down to it his other stats matter in the end far more then his cha. What I am trying to say is that the uselessness of cha is real life :smallwink:

[Teilos]

So as a first result:

Everybody agrees charisma is important for charisma dependent classes (not surprising).

On the subject of all the other classes:


Poll till now:
3 for charisma is unimportant or a dump stat
1 for charisma is fine, because of the many skills, which use it
1 for houserule: Charisma dependent start of conversations
1 for charisma SHOULD BE a dump stat, because it is in real life
All 5 said that the rules should not be changed to favour charisma additionally.

Charisma dependent start of conversations (alternative houserule):
I like the idea about the charisma dependent start of conversations. Though, I would like some game mechanic so that players know in advance what they get for their charisma. If you have some guideline or a rule on that, I would appreciate your input.


Skill comparison:
Str - 3 skills
Dex - 9 skills
Con - 1 skill
Int - 7 skills + lots of knowledges
Wis - 6 skills
Cha - 7 skills + lots of ways to perform

I can not really say that charisma is dominating the skill section.


Opinions on my feat:


In regards to the feat, that's kind of like giving away Divine Grace for free.
There are two differences. It will need one feat at the beginning and probably another one later on (in case you got a charisma item). Two feats hurt in most fighter builds. My current thrower could neither afford the charisma nor the two feats.
Second, this bonus applies not to poisons, death attacks, trapdoors or fear effects, because it is only against spells. I copied the effect from the hexblade to be exact.

I tried to prevent it to be of a too big advantage to the classes, which already have a high charisma. It seems, I did not succeed in that.
For comparison, take the "Luck of Heroes" feat from Forgotten Realms. I know it is a powerfull one, but my feat was intended to be esspecially advantageous to make charisma more attractive for Rangers, Rogues, Fighters ... There will still be a lot, who will dump charisma to prevent MAD.


My problem is that a Rogue-Diplomat should have a high charisma, but he gets only a diminishing return for taking it. Lets say he is interested in 3 charisma based skills. The high charisma gives a bonus of 3*2 for charisma 14. Instead increasing Int by two points and reducing charisma by 4 gives the same by level 3 and every level later even more.
This assumes that the effect on the other charisma skills are as interesting as the effect on the other intelligence skills for that particular rogue. Probably this rogue will even get additional profit here.

EDIT: typos

[crazedloon]

I also would like to point out to you that charisma is the base for the most broken ability in the game :smallwink:

[Teilos]

I also would like to point out to you that charisma is the base for the most broken ability in the game :smallwink:

I am sorry, I am not reading optimisation boards all the time. Which ability are you speaking of?

[I_Got_This_Name]

I think Charisma is good enough; it handles the commoner's social interaction (bargaining to get a better price for his grain/get cheaper animals), and, for adventurers, Charisma adds to whatever you want it to add to, with the mess of feats and classes; there's a way to add Charisma to practically anything.

[Zagreen]

Leadership maybe?

Anyhow, I thought about this once and maybe you could "spread out" ability score uses a bit like this:

Will saves -> Charisma, instead of Wisdom. CHA checks are already used for some situations similar to where a Will save might be required, and there's even a feat in Complete Adventurer that will change your Will save from WIS based to CHA based (at the cost of a feat, which hurts pretty bad). Charisma is supposed to be this mystic force of personality so it does kind of fit for most Will saves.

That means WIS is in about the same situation as CHA is now, where the average character doesn't have any use for it except boosting skills (which can be done in other ways). So to give WIS something to do, Initiative -> Wisdom, instead of DEX. Wisdom represents perception and alertness, so alert characters act faster.

This way, all six abilities give some kind of bonus to every character (and not just a skill modifier). CHA based classes benefit a lot (which is good because a lot of them are considered to be underpowered), and so do WIS based classes, which probably needs to be watched carefully since clerics/druids are already considered overpowered and now they get a boost to initiative without needing dexterity.

[Mordokai]

When I play cRPGs CHA is usually dump stat(if character isn't a paladin). I usually drop it all the way down to 3. Since I play a lot of IE cRPGs(BG, ID an the like) that isn't big deal, since there almost isn't any penalty connected to that.

However, when I play pnp D&D CHA is almost never a dump stat. I like a charismatic heroes, so all my heroes usually have positive charisma modifier. Even my barbarian has ten points in charisma. One of my favourite characters was fighter with following stats: 15 10 14 12 14 14. He was later multiclassed to cleric.

On general, I think charisma is a bit overlooked. People tend to dump it, and then act like nothing happened. If my character has negative charisma modifier I try to roleplay it, by being grumpy, obnoxious or even insulting. So yes, I think charisma is overlooked. Not underpowered, however.

[IonizedChicken]

I also would like to point out to you that charisma is the base for the most broken ability in the game :smallwink:

I think he's talking about Turn Undead (very breakable ability because of various other abilities it fuels, mainly Divine Metamagic). I don't know if it's the most breakable ability in the game though. It's definitely up there.
But Turn Undead doesn't have to involve Charisma; you can just buy Nightsticks.

Now, as for Charisma. Well, you could rule something of this sort: Once per encounter you may grant yourself a luck bonus on a single roll (whether it is a damage roll, attack roll, skill check, or save) that equals half your Charisma modifier. This is done as a swift action before the roll is actually rolled. Then you could have feats that improve it: 2 luck bonuses per encounter, fixed bonus on all rolls of a certain type, and so on.

[crazedloon]

Im sorry I was away for a bit it actualy powers Diplomacy an ability which can end any encounter in about 2 rounds at high enough levels :smallwink:

But the people have given good examples above about abilitys that are run by Cha and can be broken.

leadership at level 7 you can have cohort with cohorts

and turn undead turns into devine metamagic

[Indon]

Use Magic Device is one of the higher-potential skills on the skill list, and it's Charisma-driven.

[IonizedChicken]

The fact CHA-powered abilities can be broken doesn't make CHA better unless you intend to pursue said broken abilities.

[crazedloon]

The fact CHA-powered abilities can be broken doesn't make CHA better unless you intend to pursue said broken abilities.

well that is just a silly argument Str isnt good unless you hit something or carry somthing

you can walk around with 30000000 str but if you dont hit anything you are the same as the shlub who doesnt use it same goes for CHA of course it is not going to be good if you dont use it like it was meant to be used i.e. with skills

[Zagreen]

well that is just a silly argument Str isnt good unless you hit something or carry somthing

How many adventurers walk around naked without any possessions? You can get magic items to help out with your carrying capacity, but at low levels these may not be very accessible. And what happens when you find something that won't fit in your bag of holding, or need to have something readily at hand so you don't have to dig it out? Having only 6 Str is more of a liability for a gnome wizard than 6 Cha is for a half-orc barbarian; the barbarian can learn some manners and diplomacy, but the wizard can't invest skill points in the "being able to hold more than two pounds without being overloaded" skill.

[Teilos]

I must admit that a high charisma allows abuse of diplomacy with RAW. So maybe the whole problem was created, because I do not follow the RAW with regard to diplomacy.

And luckily none of my players has so far bugged me with the feats, which break turn undead.

[Zagreen]

It does depend on how you define "underpowered". CHA based powers generally do fine, but while STR/DEX/CON/INT/WIS all help out various skills and give you other passive bonuses too, if you don't have any CHA based powers then all CHA does is have a minor impact on a few skills.

[Demented]

Unless you supplant a suggestion on the ogre to stop fighting and hear you out, I don't see how diplomacy is all that effective.... It takes a good ten minutes, if I recall.

On the other hand, that does seem to be the primary method of conflict resolution in Star Trek:TNG.

[crazedloon]

How many adventurers walk around naked without any possessions? You can get magic items to help out with your carrying capacity, but at low levels these may not be very accessible. And what happens when you find something that won't fit in your bag of holding, or need to have something readily at hand so you don't have to dig it out? Having only 6 Str is more of a liability for a gnome wizard than 6 Cha is for a half-orc barbarian; the barbarian can learn some manners and diplomacy, but the wizard can't invest skill points in the "being able to hold more than two pounds without being overloaded" skill.

but for example that same barb could be even more effective using a high Cha with a high intimidate skill check along with never outnumbered (from comp scoundrel) to demoralize an entire opposing unit/force thus swaying the probability of a win in his favor. Then that same barb could turn around and go intown and get all the info he needs (without any change in skills) through intimidation alone.

now that wizard in the above situation will never ever worry about his 6 str. He needs to carry somthing? thats what spells are for. He needs nore Str? thats what spells are for ect :smallwink:

[crazedloon]

Unless you supplant a suggestion on the ogre to stop fighting and hear you out, I don't see how diplomacy is all that effective.... It takes a good ten minutes, if I recall.

On the other hand, that does seem to be the primary method of conflict resolution in Star Trek:TNG.

actualy you can do it in a full round action with a -10 to your check.

round 1 DC 25(35) to change to indiffrent (I.E. not attacking you) not to hard
round 2 DC 30(40) to change to helpful now they will eat out of your hand :smallwink:

[Delcan]

CHA is only a dump stat if your DM is moronic enough to not include actual NPC interaction as part of the game. If you want to run a hack-and-slash, by all means let CHA fall by the wayside. But if you want to get things done outside of combat, you'd better have the moxie to pull it off.

Especially if your character wants to be the Voice of the party. Diplomacy, Bluff, and Gather Information are three skills that WILL make it easier to get things done, however they're used rules-wise.

The problem that most people have is that Charisma's benefits are almost never seen in plusses and die rolls. The benefits of Charisma are always in non-crunchy parts of the game - they're in the guard that lets you into the palace's back door and mum's the word, or the barfly who decides it's okay to take one more drink and tell you about the rumors he's heard, or the ability to tell people you belong in places you shouldn't be - and get away with it.

CHA is only a dump-stat when nobody cares about fluff. Which happens far too often these days.

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

I'm currently playing in a group wherein we have the following:
Me: Half-Fey Sorceress/Stormcaster
Human Wilder
Human Cleric/Hunter of the Dead
Human Bard/(some PrC from the Complete Scoundrel)
Dragonborn Dwarf Barbarian/battlerager.

The dwarf has the lowest CHA, and he is at 12. not bad at all. There is no social interaction that we cannot pass. I started using my base +18 Intimidate check to demoralize or foes; I hit them with that and then a Power Word Fatigue (Races of the Dragon), and then blast them into submission. I want the dwarf and the cleric to start demoralizing foes, and the Wilder has Ego Whip that he uses regularly. The bard is just awesome.

[the_tick_rules]

well any stat properly used can be effective. Charismas just aren't as readily obvious as most.

[Zagreen]

Especially if your character wants to be the Voice of the party. Diplomacy, Bluff, and Gather Information are three skills that WILL make it easier to get things done, however they're used rules-wise.

Abilities =/= skills. Having say 12 CHA isn't going to be of much use unless you pump Diplomacy/Bluff/etc. too, and if you have high skills then you don't need that extra +1 or +2 all that much. Plus, it's not like having a useful skillset associated with it is unique to Charisma. Jump, Climb, Swim, Balance, Hide, Move Silently, Spot, Listen, Sense Motive, the various Knowledge skills, and Search are all skills that will ALSO make it easier to get things done. Obviously the relative value of different sets of skills varies depending on the situation, but every attribute (except Constitution, which is important for its own reasons) carries its own advantages to non-combat interactions as well as giving bonuses to combat-relevant attributes.


The problem that most people have is that Charisma's benefits are almost never seen in plusses and die rolls. The benefits of Charisma are always in non-crunchy parts of the game - they're in the guard that lets you into the palace's back door and mum's the word, or the barfly who decides it's okay to take one more drink and tell you about the rumors he's heard, or the ability to tell people you belong in places you shouldn't be - and get away with it.

CHA is only a dump-stat when nobody cares about fluff. Which happens far too often these days.

Diplomacy and Bluff checks are crunch, not fluff. Determining things by fluff basically amounts to fiat. If a 6 CHA half-orc happens to have a +14 Diplomacy modifier, the DM shouldn't say "The guards attack you anyway because you're ugly" after he talks to them (having them attack FIRST is one thing, but if he makes a Diplomacy check the DM shouldn't wave the rules away). That's like randomly announcing a PC just stabbed themselves by accident (no roll involved) or saying "Your character goes ahead and does _____ because they don't know any better."

[Teilos]

For all those who stated the efficiency of charisma based skills in the last threads:

As I already stated above: Maxing your skill ranks using a high int is much more advantageous than this little bonus derived from a high charisma. I never doubted the power of charisma based skills (though I do not allow to stop fight encounters with diplomacy). Please note that charisma is not the primary determined of your skill.

With RAW I could be a great diplomat, who lies to everyone and intimidates all his enemies and I would achieve that best with Int 16 and Cha 8 (but never the other way around).

So please no flaming that charisma is only dumped, because of missing conversations with NPCs.
Charisma is dumped by diplomats, because they need skill points much more urgent than a little bonus on top of that.

[pyrefiend]

Charisma is not only not a dump stat, it can be (and has been for every campain I've ever played) a necessity. So many encounters can be solved with charisma based skills.
I never doubted the power of charisma based skills (though I do not allow to stop fight encounters with diplomacy).Why not? If a PC takes the time to roleplay a situation and win without unsheathing their sword, I'd say reward them. There are plenty of situations the party can't talk their way out of to please the rest of the party with low charisma. Not that charisma based skills aren't overpowered with the RAW.

[DArKandEViL]

*ahem* Dashing Swordsman

:)

[Ras Sha'Akhamen]

Diplomacy is Cha-based. Having a very high diplomacy essentially wins everything unless your DM houserules otherwise.

[Erk]

well, except RAW diplomacy rules are borked. Use Rich's :p

Charisma is the least balanced of all the stats in non-modified D&D, if the GM runs the game like it was a computer RPG. However, a good GM and a good player should keep in mind that (using diplomacy as an example) no matter how high one's learned skill in something might be, the character's charisma should still have a story impact.

If you are a half-orc with cha4 and +20 to diplomacy, you might be damned good at fast-talking, but you're still one ugly, socially inept bugger. The GM could reasonably rule that the guards just plain aren't going to stop to listen to you, because you're so frigging horrendous that they barely even realise you can talk. Now, that shouldn't be the norm, but as a whole the GM should keep in mind that by dumping Charisma, you've made the choice to represent your character as a poor speaker and diplomat. Trying to fill that gap with intelligence should only get you so far. No matter how good you are at the technical end of talking, you still have a face that causes heart attacks and an attitude that curdles milk. That isn't really fiat (nor is it by the book, I know): there is no mystery where the GM's choice comes from. You're the one who chose to give your diplomat a 6 charisma.

That said, in my games, all the stats are usually far more balanced out. Charisma is vital to a wide number of feats and spells, strength is not the only important combat statistic, et cetera. But describing that would take forever.

[asqwasqw]

I would rather have 18 int and 8 cha than 8 int and 18 cha, most of the time. In fact, if I were a pure diplomat at any level other than 1, the former is much more preferable than the latter. And there is a difference between a high diplomacy and a high charisma, the first is useful, the second, not so much.

[Teilos]

@Pyrefiend

That is a seperate discussion. I ve send you a PM.

My point is that usually people attack for a reason and they have set their mind before. And I do not think that any diplomacy check should just allow to stop them, if there are not favourable conditions.

[Goff]

In my opinion Will saves need to be split into two categories: the ones that rely on one's force of personality and the ones that rely upon one's perception. Will and Perception saves if you will.
Will saves rely upon charisma as their source ability, whereas Perception saves rely upon your wisdom.
This said, I haven't the time or the motivation to actually implement this as a houserule in game, let alone recategorise the spells and write a new form of character sheet.

Sorry if this isn't exactly on topic, but this idea has been bouncing around in my head for a while and this seems a relatively appropriate place to post it.

[GymGeekAus]

(shrug) Roleplaying your stats is a central part of our games. I ask players to write backgrounds that take their stats into consideration, and expect them to keep their personalities and histories in mind when we play.

If you use Charisma as your dump-stat, don't be surprised if you're often picked to go on long missions that take you out of the country. Or if you're the one being used to open doors. Or if you end up paying 125% list price for all your stuff and are constantly being harrassed by the town guard. Or if the rest of the party leaves you to die someplace, just because they don't really like you.

Just like if Int is your dump stat, don't expect a lot of people to ask you for your opinion. Or if Str is your dump stat, hope the DM isn't using encumbrance rules.

The idea of splitting will saves across Wis and Cha is a good one, by the way. But many of us are looking for ways to simplify the game for our players that aren't into heavy number-crunching, rather than to make it more complex.

If you're playing the kick-in-the-door style of play where characters wander through dungeons in stoic silence for the sole purpose of gathering phat lewt, then Cha is clearly underpowered. Otherwise, I think it should come into play plenty--even if there is no immediately obvious and tangible benefit to it.

[Marcotic]

I beleive you can (gauranteed) only use diplomacy once, whether you fail or not
(this's from the SRD)

Try Again
Optional, but not recommended because retries usually do not work. Even if the initial Diplomacy check succeeds, the other character can be persuaded only so far, and a retry may do more harm than good. If the initial check fails, the other character has probably become more firmly committed to his position, and a retry is futile.

[Koga]

This is just a theory, but why not combine stats to make them all equaly useful? Turn six stats into three stats.

Mind:
Mind would be a combonation of intelligence and dexterity. The two mingle pretty well.

Body:
A combonation of strength and constitution. The two compliment eachother.

Soul:
Wisdom and charisma, otherwise known as the spellcaster stat.

[Ras Sha'Akhamen]

well, except RAW diplomacy rules are borked.
Of course, that was my point. Just sayin', Cha isn't underpowered with RAW like that.

[Helgraf]

This is just a theory, but why not combine stats to make them all equaly useful? Turn six stats into three stats.

Mind:
Mind would be a combonation of intelligence and dexterity. The two mingle pretty well.

Body:
A combonation of strength and constitution. The two compliment eachother.

Soul:
Wisdom and charisma, otherwise known as the spellcaster stat.


Sounds suspiciously like the Tri-Stat system of BESM and similiar games....

[Zagreen]

well, except RAW diplomacy rules are borked. Use Rich's :p

Charisma is the least balanced of all the stats in non-modified D&D, if the GM runs the game like it was a computer RPG. However, a good GM and a good player should keep in mind that (using diplomacy as an example) no matter how high one's learned skill in something might be, the character's charisma should still have a story impact.

If you are a half-orc with cha4 and +20 to diplomacy, you might be damned good at fast-talking, but you're still one ugly, socially inept bugger. The GM could reasonably rule that the guards just plain aren't going to stop to listen to you, because you're so frigging horrendous that they barely even realise you can talk. Now, that shouldn't be the norm, but as a whole the GM should keep in mind that by dumping Charisma, you've made the choice to represent your character as a poor speaker and diplomat. Trying to fill that gap with intelligence should only get you so far. No matter how good you are at the technical end of talking, you still have a face that causes heart attacks and an attitude that curdles milk. That isn't really fiat (nor is it by the book, I know): there is no mystery where the GM's choice comes from. You're the one who chose to give your diplomat a 6 charisma.

There's a difference between charisma having a story impact and the GM deciding to situationally ignore rules. Saying "Ok, 6 CHA half-orc diplomat, you might have rolled a 57 on your diplomacy check but you're still ugly. The guards attack anyhow" is just as bad as saying "Ok, 6 DEX cleric tank, you might have rolled a 57 on your attack roll due to buff spells but you're still clumsy as hell. You just cut your own head off on your greatsword, roll a new character."

Having NPCs react to the 6 CHA character more poorly is one thing, but the rules for diplomacy say it's possible to be an effective diplomat through training and skill without being naturally charismatic. This isn't unreasonable or unrealistic. The difference between a high CHA diplomat and a low CHA diplomat is that the low CHA diplomat has to stop and talk things through all the time to get people to do anything for him; the high CHA guy just has to ask for something and people fall over themselves to get it for him. But for either one, as soon as the talking starts, the diplomacy rules kick into effect and they apply equally for both characters. If for some reason you don't like it, change the rules instead of selectively deciding the rules don't apply for certain characters when you don't want them to.

And really, is letting a 6 CHA rogue succeed with heavily trained diplomacy any worse than letting a 6 STR gnome get a Handy Haversack to carry all their stuff without being encumbered? Why should the DM hold characters with low CHA to their weakness while letting characters with other low ability scores circumvent their disadvantages?

[Caelestion]

I'm glad someone else pointed out the whole thing with Diplomacy. So many people seem to believe the "2x-Diplomacy-ends-all-encounters" fallacy it appears.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I take it no one plays Sorcerers or Paladins anymore?

Seriously, I had an idea for a revamped magic system for arcane casters, which severely nerfs Wizards by implimenting MAD.

Int: Force of Mind. This determines number of additional spells, and is required to get higher level spells (must have Int 10+Spell Level)

Cha: Force of Personality. This determines Save DC.

[Teilos]

I take it no one plays Sorcerers or Paladins anymore?

Seriously, I had an idea for a revamped magic system for arcane casters, which severely nerfs Wizards by implimenting MAD.

Int: Force of Mind. This determines number of additional spells, and is required to get higher level spells (must have Int 10+Spell Level)

Cha: Force of Personality. This determines Save DC.

Sorry Shneekey, this is not about the importance of charisma for certain classes. No one here doubted that there are classes for which charisma is great.
The point was that charisma does not have any real direct power like all the other abilities without choosing a special class.
And then it got a little bit caried away about the difference between skills and the conected attributes.


To sum up things: Charisma is a dump stat for almost everyone, who is not playing a special charisma based class.
Some DMs have houserules to make charisma more essential to social skills, but those "rules" are usually not well defined.
Finally and most important: The majority agrees on the position that their should be no additional power connected to charisma and the rules should stay unchanged.

As for me: I will probably try some things to make charisma more attractive in the future.

[Reinboom]

I have been actually debating the use of charisma as a dump stat as well with many of my characters and seeing on how to make it seam more reasonable.
I've been toying with mechanics and ideas to try to give it rules, the following options seams the most working:
1. Make Cha double the bonus on the skill checks it handles. For example, 16 cha gives a +6 bonus to perform, diplomacy, etc. On the other hand of this, to make this not break, raise the DC required by 1 or 2.
2. Make Cha provide half rate skill points as int. For every 2 Cha modifiers you get 1 extra skill point (or 4 at 1st level). So 14 Cha gives you +1, 18 gives you +2, 22 gives you +3, etc. Then have these extra skill points only spendable on Cha based skills (and no skill tricks).

[paigeoliver]

Honestly when you look at everything the real dump stat is not Charisma. It is wisdom. If you aren't a wisdom caster or monk then what does wisdom get you?

Wisdom affects 6 skills. Heal and profession can be tossed out the door right away. They just don't come up enough to be crucial. Sure, heal is used to stabilize people, but we both know that it gets done with spells or potions a lot more often than it does with the actual heal skill. Plus it is cross-class for every PHB class that can't cast healing spells in the first place.

That leaves 4 skills. Spot, listen, sense motive and survival. The majority of these skills are cross class for most characters. Rogues get 3 of them. Barbarians and Bards get 2 of them. While fighters, wizards and sorcerors get none of them at all. That averages out to non-wisdom casters getting an average of 1 wisdom skill that is a class skill.

Sure some people spend cross class ranks and for some skills they make sense, but Spot, Listen, Sense Motive, and Survival are all skills that continually scale in difficulty as the characters meet more difficult challenges, and the person buying the skill cross class can't meet any of the actual challenges.

Sure every 2 points of wisdom boosts your will save by 1 point. The feat system has shown that the D20 rules consider 1 point of savings throw to be worth 2 skills points. Judged by the wide variety of feats that give +2 to saves and the wide variety of feats that give about +4 to skills. For the purposes of my math below I am going to translate savings throw bonuses directly into skill points.

Charisma skills other than perform are almost universally useful, class or cross class, trained or untrained, regardless of level or number of ranks.

Int skills vary in usefulness. The average non-wisdom caster from the PHB has 6 class skills that use INT. (Actually 6.5 but D&D math rounds down).

So lets say you have a character who isn't a wisdom caster, and are unsure of where to drop a couple stat points.

Putting 2 points in wisdom is worth an effective 3 skill points. 8 if you go with the idea that all those cross class wisdom skills are worthwhile.

Putting 2 points in charisma is worth 6 skill points, 7 if perform is worthwhile for your character.

Putting 2 points into INT is worth 11 skill points at first level (+6 on class skills, +4 extra skill points, plus a language), and continues to be worth an extra skill point every level afterwards.

Intelligence trumps both wisdom and charisma, but charisma beats up wisdom.

[Teilos]

Your argumentation about the usefullness of skills is very DM dependent. Some DMs start every encounter with spot checks and a surprise round, others don't. Some DM's do not care what the player says to the Prince and accept the difference between players skills and their characters, others care more about the speach and the logic of the player. Some DM's use low level adventures and do not give much gold, but they give regularly off time and give the players the opportunity to earn money with the craft skill... You can go on with this for all skills.
There is a similar number of skills for both abilities. I value them similar in their possibilities, but that is only due to the way I am used to play (as DM as well as as player).

[paigeoliver]

Actually I was arguing from the most skill heavy possible game, where every encounter has spot and listen checks. Your character buying spot and listen cross class just isn't going to be able to keep up with the hide and move silently rolls of their opponents. That +8 that cost you dearly in skill points isn't going to help a bit when you are rolling to try and hit a 30.

[Triaxx]

I actually use a house rule.

Charisma Battle
Initial NPC generation includes a PC style CHA role. This CHA is noted and then compared to the CHA of the character who initiates the dialogue. The difference is used to determine the initial reaction.

I don't have the chart handy though. I'll see if I can dig it up, but it's more or less a linear procession, with two even CHA scores producing a neutral reaction.

[Matthew]

An interesting idea. There is quite a movement at the moment to make Charisma a more Magic related Attribute. Personally, I would probably settle for making Will Saves multi dependent on Wisdom and Charisma, using the best Bonus and worst Penalty from each.

[Erk]

I actually use a house rule.

Charisma Battle
Initial NPC generation includes a PC style CHA role. This CHA is noted and then compared to the CHA of the character who initiates the dialogue. The difference is used to determine the initial reaction.

I don't have the chart handy though. I'll see if I can dig it up, but it's more or less a linear procession, with two even CHA scores producing a neutral reaction.

That's a really cool idea. It's basically what I normally run almost subconsciously by fiat, but set into numbers. I would greatly like to see your chart. It also allows diplomats to start working on the character after the initial reaction, but a charismaless diplomat has to start much worse off than one with charisma.


There's a difference between charisma having a story impact and the GM deciding to situationally ignore rules. Saying "Ok, 6 CHA half-orc diplomat, you might have rolled a 57 on your diplomacy check but you're still ugly. The guards attack anyhow" is just as bad as saying "Ok, 6 DEX cleric tank, you might have rolled a 57 on your attack roll due to buff spells but you're still clumsy as hell. You just cut your own head off on your greatsword, roll a new character."Having the guards attack said orc because he had a low charisma would be a bit unfair, but having them refuse to listen to him would not be. Diplomacy is contingent on communication, and NPCs are free to refuse to communicate with someone they consider repulsive... just as a character with a 6 constitution can train to hold their concentration in a physically taxing situation, but can't take skills to teach them how to be less sickly. One is learnable, one is intrinsic. An NPC's "first impression" of a PC is going to be intrinsic on their charisma and nothing else, and if that impression is poor enough they may not want to talk. I do agree it would be nice if this wasn't fiat, though.

I'm keen to see Triaxx's rules or write some of my own since that sounds like a good way to change the play aspects represented by charisma from gm fiat and off-the-cuff stuff to something hard and fast.

I'll see if I can't whip something up that harmonises nicely with Rich's nice house rule (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/jFppYwv7OUkegKhONNF.html).

[Triaxx]

So, since I've lost the list, I'll throw up a short table to demonstrate.

{table=head]CHA Score|CHA 1|CHA 2|CHA 3

CHA 1|
+0|
+1|
+2

CHA 2|
-1|
+0|
+1

CHA 3|
-2|
-1|
+0 [/table]

Top row is the CHA score of the character initiating the conversation. First column is the score of the character which is being engaged in conversation. Each point off is one point of reaction adjustment.

So Dave the bard with 15 charisma, engages a guard with a CHA score of 8. This leads the guard to not only direct Dave to Lord Clownicus castle, but also to warn him of the Pie in the Face trap.

Upon meeting Lord Clownicus, Dave engages him in conversation, and finds his 15 Cha, opposed by LC's 18. His DC for diplomacy, is now 28, plus however many points of increase he's aiming for. (10+Diplomat's CHA+ points of difference+ adjustment) And roll with mitigation for additional adjustments.

[Erk]

So, since I've lost the list, I'll throw up a short table to demonstrate.

{table=head]CHA Score|CHA 1|CHA 2|CHA 3

CHA 1|
+0|
+1|
+2

CHA 2|
-1|
+0|
+1

CHA 3|
-2|
-1|
+0 [/table]

Nice stuff. Here is my suggestion for how to run it with Rich's rules, which I think works nicely.

Mood Checks

METHOD 1: faster, easier for the DM to keep secret
Any NPC or group of NPCs that is going to be interacting socially with the PC party makes a Mood check. The DC is equal to 10+the cha modifier of the party spokesperson. The NPC group uses their highest cha modifier as a bonus on this save.
EG: the PC party spokesperson is a bard, Cha16. The NPC group contains an advisor with Cha18. That advisor must therefore make a save vs. DC 13, with a +4 bonus/

METHOD 2: character interaction
Same as above, but instead of "taking 10" on their DC, the player characters roll a d20 and it is run as opposed checks. This way makes the reaction less secret but also allows more randomness and is probably more fun in general.

Whichever method you choose, the NPCs gain a "mood modifier" equal to:
1/2[(player's check or DC) - (NPC's check)]
so if in the previous example the NPC rolled a modified 7:
1/2(13-7)= 3
the NPCs gain a "mood modifier" of +3. They are more susceptible to diplomacy from the players. This is added to or subtracted from the Relationship Modifier in Rich's rules, so if our example NPC party is neutral to the characters, the PCs have caught them in a good mood and get a +3 overall to their attempts. If the NPCs were minor enemies, the PCs penalty would be reduced to -2. That doesn't mean the NPCs are any less the PCs enemies, just that the PC spokesperson has managed to shock/awe/startle the NPC group into listening closely.

METHOD 3: use Triaxx's even simpler "PC charisma - NPC charisma" method, and half the result. So in this example, the NPC charisma is 18, the PC's is 16, so the final "mood modifier" is -1. I don't like this because it doesn't allow randomness, but it is nice because it's quick and simple; NPCs' mood modifiers can probably even be calculated in advance if you can anticipate which PC will be speaking.

NOTES:
1) Relationship modifiers still never pass below or above 10.
2) if a character's opinion of the character is firmly cemented this rule may be forgone. The nemesis should never have a reaction higher than -10 to the character. The character's best friend and lover should never have lower than +10. Et cetera.

ROLEPLAYING: It's up to you how you fluff this. With never-before-met NPCs it is easy to write in as "first impression". With NPCs for whom first impression doesn't apply, it could be the NPC's "mood". NPCs with a low charisma are easily cheered, impressed, or awed by PCs with high charisma, making them react better initially. High Diplomatic skill can still totally override a negative reaction here, but can't completely replace the value of a good impression at the start of a conversation.