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jindra34
2007-04-22, 09:01 PM
Ok i've been thinking of this class for a while and finally think i have it ready to be posted
Hit dice= d6
Skills:Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int)
Skill points:2+intelligence
Summoner
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+2|Basic Summoning

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+3|

3rd|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+3|

4th|
+3|
+1|
+1|
+4|

5th|
+3|
+1|
+1|
+4| Intelligent Summoning

6th|
+4|
+2|
+2|
+5|

7th|
+5|
+2|
+2|
+5|

8th|
+6|
+2|
+2|
+6|

9th|
+6|
+3|
+3|
+6|

10th|
+7|
+3|
+3|
+7| Advanced Summoning

11th|
+8|
+3|
+3|
+7|

12th|
+8|
+4|
+4|
+8|

13th|
+9|
+4|
+4|
+8|Elemental Summoning

14th|
+10|
+4|
+4|
+9|

15th|
+11|
+5|
+5|
+9|

16th|
+12|
+5|
+5|
+10|Planar Calling

17th|
+12|
+5|
+5|
+10|

18th|
+13|
+6|
+6|
+11|

19th|
+14|
+6|
+6|
+11|

20th|
+15|
+6|
+6|
+12|
[/table]



Basic Summoning (SP): Undead, Plant, Construct, Ooze, Animal, Vermin, Magical beasts, all intelligence<3 Can summon up to Level in HD monsters for level minutes a day. Takes a full round action to attempt a summoning.
Intelligent Summoning: no limit on summoned entity intelligence, intelligent entities get will save (dc=10 +1/2 class levels + charisma bonus) to not follow
Advanced Summoning:Can now summon Humanoids, Fey, Native Outsiders, Aberrations, Giants, Dragons, Monstrous Humanoids,
Elemental Summoning:Can now summon Elementals
Planar Calling:can now summon Outsiders, requires spellcraft check (dc=HD of monster +2 if alignment matches/-2 per opposition)

What does everybody think?

Innis Cabal
2007-04-22, 09:12 PM
its a conjuration specialist....looks ok now...need to see the hard stats though

jindra34
2007-04-22, 09:13 PM
its a conjuration specialist....looks ok now...need to see the hard stats though

like what?
Would adding a familar be unbalanced?

Innis Cabal
2007-04-22, 09:15 PM
well.....how often can they summon? Better description...fluff.....

jindra34
2007-04-22, 09:17 PM
well.....how often can they summon? Better description...fluff.....

So ling as they have no excedded their daily HD*minutes they can summon as often as they want... not sure what would be good fluff... if you have suggestions i'm all ears.

Also need advice on Spell level equivalants of abilities.
Edit: realised there is not much use for spelcasting stats, requesting help solving problem

jlousivy
2007-04-23, 12:14 AM
can they summon multiple things at once? are they completely under his control? If you summon a human can you choose for it to be a spellcaster or a fighter--also do you choose it's spells / equipment/feats?

jindra34
2007-04-23, 08:05 AM
can they summon multiple things at once? are they completely under his control? If you summon a human can you choose for it to be a spellcaster or a fighter--also do you choose it's spells / equipment/feats?

yes,maybe,yes no.

jindra34
2007-04-24, 05:57 PM
Just wondering if any one else had anything to say on this subject?

Innis Cabal
2007-04-24, 06:38 PM
as written no...it looks imcomplete and unformatted. The abilities are vauge to the point that they cant be used. And what about their skills? They get...7 skills? And it dosnt even look their abilities are arcane in nature. Frankly, and i am not trying to be mean, as written this isnt a class, its just a bunch of text with no meaning. And if you keep it as written, its to powerful. You can summon a human wizard with all the spells you want? Do that every day and things could get messy...ets not even look how you just threw the whole leadership fear right out the window...So ya i guess i had a lot to say...scrap it and strat over, this time add things like description.

Keledrath
2007-04-24, 10:32 PM
I would drop the BAB and give it some spells, or at least a familiar.

jindra34
2007-04-25, 11:36 AM
I would drop the BAB and give it some spells, or at least a familiar.

Thank you for the constructive response... and the next version will feature a familar...

jindra34
2007-04-26, 03:23 PM
Version 2:
Hit Dice= d6
Class Skills=Bluff, Craft, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Heal, Intimidate, Knowledge (Arcana, Local, Religion, the Planes), Listen, Perform, Profession, Search, Spot, Use Magic Device
Weapon Proficiencies= All simple weapons and light armor
Summoner
{table=head]Level|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+2|Basic Summons, Creature Type, Familiar

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+3| Creature Type

3rd|
+1|
+1|
+1|
+3| Creature Type

4th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+4| Creature Type

5th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+4| Creature Type

6th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+5| Creature Type

7th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+5| Creature Type

8th|
+4|
+2|
+2|
+6| Creature Type

9th|
+4|
+3|
+3|
+6| Creature Type

10th|
+5|
+3|
+3|
+7| Creature Type

11th|
+5|
+3|
+3|
+7| Creature Type

12th|
+6|
+4|
+4|
+8| Creature Type

13th|
+6|
+4|
+4|
+8| Creature Type

14th|
+7|
+4|
+4|
+9| Creature Type

15th|
+7|
+5|
+5|
+9| Creature Type

16th|
+8|
+5|
+5|
+10| Creature Type

17th|
+8|
+5|
+5|
+10| Creature Type

18th|
+9|
+6|
+6|
+11| Creature Type

19th|
+9|
+6|
+6|
+11| Creature Type

20th|
+10|
+6|
+6|
+12| Creature Type
[/table]



Basic Summon: A Summoner can summon CL of HD of creatures of a type chosen on a successful character level check (use charisma modifier)

Summoning DC = 5 + Creatures HD + 5 if creature is intelligent +5 if Not native to Ethereal/Shadow/Material Plane + 5 if native to Outer Plane + 10 for general purpose + 20 for specific purpose + 10 if summoning known person + 5 if in medium armor +10 if in heavy armor
Intelligent beings get a will roll to resist summoning (DC= 10+1/2 Class Levels + Charisma Modifier).
Intelligent beings are treated as charmed.
Non-intelligent beings are subservient but can only take simple directions.

Creature Type: At each level a Summoner can select a creature type from the following list. The first time a type is selected it allows a Summoner to summon creatures of that type. Each subsequent time it is selected it adds 2 to the caster level check to summon a creature of that type. Elemental and Outsider types cannot be selected before level 10.
Types:
Aberration, Animal, Construct, Dragon, Elemental, Fey, Giant, Humanoid, Magical Beast, Monstrous Humanoid, Ooze, Outsider (Air), Outsider (Chaotic), Outsiders (Earth), Outsiders (Evil), Outsiders (Fire), Outsiders (Good), Outsiders (Lawful), Outsiders (Native), Outsiders (Water), Plant, Undead, Vermin

Familiar: A Summoner can have a familiar as if s/he was a Sorcerer of equal level.

Innis Cabal
2007-04-26, 03:46 PM
i think you need a table for creature type and their DC's, its a little confusing as written, and it looks like its is kinda weak, if it just summons things...there are reserve feats that do that

jindra34
2007-04-26, 06:38 PM
i think you need a table for creature type and their DC's, its a little confusing as written, and it looks like its is kinda weak, if it just summons things...there are reserve feats that do that
Would you explain what a reserve feat is... i have no idea what you are talking about... if i did i probably would not have done this... and why did you not tell me this like 10 posts ago...

Innis Cabal
2007-04-26, 06:42 PM
becuase the class was unclear 10 posts ago for one. A reserve feat is a feat that allows a caster to do minor things if they meet the pre-reqs...for example..pre-req, conjuration spell 4th or higher. So long as you have a 4th level conjuration spell unused you can summon a small animal or object to you.

The class is to focused, even more so then the warmage, who is a simple blow #$%$ up, or the dread necromancer, who is what a necromancer should be. Again, as written, even with clarification, this class is very vauge and i don't really understand how you summon becuase it looks like a jumble of numbers and words. Please don't think i am just saying this to be mean, i really want to help ya out here.

jindra34
2007-04-26, 06:57 PM
The types are Ranger favored enemy types except all humanoids are one group.

Innis Cabal
2007-04-26, 07:01 PM
i understand the types, thats not the issue with the class Jindra, the issue is that how it is written it is very hard to understand. I do not like to toot my own horn but here is an example of a deined and clear class

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41157

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-04-26, 07:19 PM
To be honest, it seems a little underpowered. A suggestion, if you will:

A Necromancer can control up to twice his level in HD of undead. These undead are around 24/7. If you're wanting to do a summoner, switch out Undead for Outsider and you're going to be fairly close in what you are wanting to do.

How about some sort of Turn/Rebuke for summoned or extraplanar things? That would be thematically feasable (By my knowledge of summoning magic, I send you back where you came from).

Exclude Undead from your list. That's a Necromancer's baliwick. You are wanting Magical Beasts and Outsiders for the most part. Same thing with Vermin and Animal, those are the Druid's baliwick.

Allow them to unlock certain types of things to be summoned at certain levels, much as it did in the first edition, rather than limiting to specific types.

Limit HD of any single summoned critter to the Summoner's level, and total HD of summoned critters under his control to twice his HD.

Remove limitation on how many times you can summon per day, or the max duration. If he has to blow all his 'summon time' in one fight, he's worthless until the next day. Give him some staying power, moreso because as you get higher in level, the weaker his abilities are.

As he progresses, allow him to add improvements to his summoned things to make them nastier. For example, at a certain level, all Summoned creatures have max hps for their HD, or perhaps they come with a single benificial spell of 3rd level or lower (which will increase as he progresses to 6th then 9th), or perhaps half his level worth of spell levels to buff them with. By the time he hits 15, his 30 HD of critters isn't looking nearly as effective. Most critters of his CR have WAY more HD than he has class levels. He's got to have something to make it worthwhile.

I like the concept, by the way. Keep it up.

jindra34
2007-04-26, 07:23 PM
To be honest, it seems a little underpowered. A suggestion, if you will:

A Necromancer can control up to twice his level in HD of undead. These undead are around 24/7. If you're wanting to do a summoner, switch out Undead for Outsider and you're going to be fairly close in what you are wanting to do.

How about some sort of Turn/Rebuke for summoned or extraplanar things? That would be thematically feasable (By my knowledge of summoning magic, I send you back where you came from).

Exclude Undead from your list. That's a Necromancer's baliwick. You are wanting Magical Beasts and Outsiders for the most part. Same thing with Vermin and Animal, those are the Druid's baliwick.

Allow them to unlock certain types of things to be summoned at certain levels, much as it did in the first edition, rather than limiting to specific types.

Limit HD of any single summoned critter to the Summoner's level, and total HD of summoned critters under his control to twice his HD.

Remove limitation on how many times you can summon per day, or the max duration. If he has to blow all his 'summon time' in one fight, he's worthless until the next day. Give him some staying power, moreso because as you get higher in level, the weaker his abilities are.

As he progresses, allow him to add improvements to his summoned things to make them nastier. For example, at a certain level, all Summoned creatures have max hps for their HD, or perhaps they come with a single benificial spell of 3rd level or lower (which will increase as he progresses to 6th then 9th), or perhaps half his level worth of spell levels to buff them with. By the time he hits 15, his 30 HD of critters isn't looking nearly as effective. Most critters of his CR have WAY more HD than he has class levels. He's got to have something to make it worthwhile.

I like the concept, by the way. Keep it up.

Actually thank you very much... this is exactly the kind of comment i was looking for...

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-04-26, 07:36 PM
Actually thank you very much... this is exactly the kind of comment i was looking for...

I'm always willing to put in my two cents... the trouble is getting me to STOP :smalltongue:

One other thing, you might want to clearly define how the Summoner goes about summoning things. What is needed, how long it takes, that sort of thing. Lot of flavor can be added here without taking crunch away.

Just an idea:

Standard Summoning: You summon and bind to your will a critter of some sort. This takes several hours to prepare, and requires rare components worth x GP (something like 50GP/HD is what is needed for necros and their undead, to give you a baseline). It may also require special knowledge, requiring Knowledge (Arcana) checks of a set DC, and other requirements. Once it is summoned, you need to bind it to your will. This is going to be some sort of contested roll between you and the summoned critter. If you win, it becomes your minion. If it wins, it probably attacks you or something. Critters summoned this way are permanent unless killed or dismissed.

Battle Summoning: Quick and dirty summoning. Lets you duplicate the effects of Summon Monster of appropriate level (something like 1/2 Summoner level as the max level Summon Monster spell, max 9th). Limit this to x/day and optionally require some cost, so it's kind of like a Wizard having to dip into scrolls to save his bacon.