PDA

View Full Version : Pathfinder [Feat&Trait] Prodigy.



Xerlith
2015-05-30, 09:22 AM
Feat:
Prodigy
Requirement: Favoured class 2nd level.
Benefit: When determining what class-level dependent abilities (other than spellcasting, alchemy and similar abilities) of your favoured class are available to you, you are treated as two levels higher, up to your Character level+1.
For example, a 1st level Fighter with this feat gains a Bonus Feat and Bravery ability of a 2nd level fighter and so on.


Trait:

Diligent Student
Benefit: When determining what class-level dependent abilities (other than spellcasting, alchemy and other similar abilities) of one of your favoured classes are available to you, you are treated as one level higher, up to your character level.


Basically, it's practiced spellcaster for non-spellcasters. A 2nd level Zen Archer/Fighter1 with the trait has the 3rd level Wis-to-Damage.
So does a 1st level Zen Archer/Fighter1 with the feat.

I hope I did not overshoot and these are not too strong...

Takewo
2015-05-30, 11:19 AM
Wait, so this basically means that you have all the class traits one level earlier than you ought to, right?

I personally think it is ridiculously overpowered. But it's for Pathfinder, isn't it? They I guess it's alright.

dragonjek
2015-05-30, 08:02 PM
These are seriously overpowered.

You're basically handing out a level at the cost of just a feat. Sure, you don't get the BaB, save, skills, or spellcasting of the level, but you're gaining new abilities an entire level before you should.

It would be better if this just treated your level in regards to class abilities you already have as +2 levels higher (max of character level +1).

Diligent Student basically does the same thing, but as a trait! Traits aren't supposed to be powerful at all, their flavor abilities that happen to provide a minor benefit.

Xerlith
2015-05-31, 03:46 AM
Wait, so this basically means that you have all the class traits one level earlier than you ought to, right?


Yes. I haven't seen a class where that would break it.


These are seriously overpowered.

You're basically handing out a level at the cost of just a feat. Sure, you don't get the BaB, save, skills, or spellcasting of the level, but you're gaining new abilities an entire level before you should.

It would be better if this just treated your level in regards to class abilities you already have as +2 levels higher (max of character level +1).

Diligent Student basically does the same thing, but as a trait! Traits aren't supposed to be powerful at all, their flavor abilities that happen to provide a minor benefit.

Again, I haven't seen a class where it would break it. That level of difference matters mostly on low levels, since it doesn't inherently grant pwerful abilities. While I see this may appear powerful, I have thoroughly looke through Paizo and DSP classes before settling on the final form of the feat and trait.
The trait, I think, is on par with some of the things (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/magical-knack) spellcasters (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/magical-lineage) get (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/regional-traits/wayang-spellhunter-minata), since it's basically a one-level multiclass rectifier. Stronger than Magical Knack, but doesn't apply to the strongest thing in the game, which is spellcasting.

The feat is, I admit, probably a bit over the top, though I still can't see a specific situation where that level+1 would be gamebreaking. It barely makes dipping out bearable AND it costs a feat. Changing it to at least 3rd or at least 6th character level would probably tone it down.

Takewo
2015-05-31, 04:30 AM
As I said, if it's Pathfinder, I don't really see any problem with it. It is absolutely overpowered, yes; but half of the game is absolutely overpowered. You just have to pity the poor guy who will choose Dodge instead of that feat (or any other equally broken) at first level.

But what this feat actually does is giving you two free levels to multiclass. Since you get all the class traits two levels earlier, you can be Fighter 2/Barbarian 1 and your traits will be those of a Fighter 4/Barbarian 1. So, in fact, class-traitwise, you are two levels higher than your actual level.

Xerlith
2015-05-31, 06:46 AM
Again - you're looking at numbers, but what else?

In the given example of Fighter2/Barbarian 1 with the feat you pay a General feat (slot) to gain... A feat from a limited list plus, in the case of a Vanilla fighter, the ability to move full-speed in medium armor. In my opinion, that's a feat's worth alright. Compare Divine Protection (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/divine-protection) which gives you a Paladin's top-notch ability straigh off - only that it's a 5th level feat.

Again - If I moved the feat requirement to 3rd level, it would probably tone it down accordingly, simply because of how many abilities come online at 3rd level (so no 2nd level coming-of-age) AND how many feats contest for that 3rd level feat slot (Clustered Shots, to give one example).

The feat itself helps the non-spellcasting characters the most, since that is where multiclassing is the most needed. Makes that one-two level dip in Monk that much useful and so on. It IS undoubtedly strong, but I don't see it being brokenly overpowered. It's (mostly) numbers, and mostly just a +1 to them. Would removing that +1 on character level calculation in your opinion even it out accordingly?
As I said, I am comparing it to the more powerful options.

If I was to change the trait, I would probably change benefit to
"When your class abilities reference your class level in your favoured class, you are treated as three levels higher, up to your character level." due to how it compares to the Caster Level of Magical Knack.

Remember, there are also traits like (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/campaign-traits/mummy-s-mask/trap-finder) this (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/religion-traits/defensive-strategist-1).

Takewo
2015-05-31, 07:49 AM
I think I will just repeat my very own words, again.


As I said, if it's Pathfinder, I don't really see any problem with it.

Xerlith
2015-05-31, 08:36 AM
Yes, and that's my question about your evaluation - 3.5 has a lot more powerful combos than this feat allows, and overall allows for much higher power level ceiling. It wouldn't actually make that much of a difference overall.
And indeed, it doesn't really make a difference in Pathfinder where multiclassing is, well, kinda weak.

Takewo
2015-05-31, 08:50 AM
Having half of the game overpowered doesn't make your feat less overpowered. The problem with Pathfinder and D&D 3.5 is that when you start adding expansions the game becomes broken.

No, your feat is not too much compared to Divine Protection, but both of them are overpowered compared to Weapon Focus. Hence my reasoning that it is overpowered but still okay with Pathfinder.

Xerlith
2015-05-31, 09:13 AM
And here's the disconnect - I don't see Weapon Focus particularily worth getting. Both D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder are games that a feat is easily worth a +2 to both attack and damage (Extra Spell: Bull's Strength), 20% concealment, +2d6 sneak attack (Martial Stance) and so on.
I enjoy feats that either unlock new options or better the overall quality of a character in a way that, for example, the PF Crane Wing and Crane Riposte feats do.
I'd rather the feat was on par with Divine Protection than Caustic Slur (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/caustic-slur-general), overall.

That said, I made a minor adjustment.

EDIT: Look at the feat this way: It's an expenditure of a 1/10 of a resource to gain a benefit of a... Well, 1/20 or 1/10 of a resource.

The feat, due to how it works, comes online as a strong choice at level 3-5, then slowly loses power at medium levels, where that level of class abilities doesn't make that much of a difference compared to, say, spells or martial maneuvers, then finally comes back again at 19th level to grant the capstone to a pure-classed character OR allow to reach the capstone when multiclassing.