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View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next The Weaver - A full caster class with a predilection toward failure.



boxfox
2015-06-02, 11:27 AM
Hello. I'd like to present the Weaver.

http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u383/Timothy_Boehmke/Mobile%20Uploads/Table%20-%20The%20Weaver.jpg_zpseemc3szz.png
---NOTE---If this image isn't showing up for other people, please let me know. My network is blocking it because I'm at work.


The worlds within the D&D multiverse are magical places. All existence is suffused with magical power, and potential energy lies untapped in every rock, stream, and living creature, and even in the air itself. Raw magic is the stuff of creation, the mute and mindless will of existence, permeating every bit of matter and present in every manifestation of energy throughout the multiverse.
Most mortals can’t directly shape this raw magic. Instead, they make use of a fabric of magic, a kind of interface between the will of a spellcaster and the stuff of raw magic. The spellcasters of the Forgotten Realms call it the Weave and recognize its essence as the goddess Mystra, but casters have varied ways of naming and visualizing this interface.
By any name, without the Weave, raw magic is locked away and inaccessible; the most powerful archmage can't light a candle with magic in an area where the Weave has been torn. But surrounded by the Weave, a spellcaster can shape lightning to blast foes, transport hundreds of miles in the blink of an eye, or even reverse death itself.
All magic depends on the Weave, though different kinds of magic access it in a variety of ways. The spells of wizards, warlocks, sorcerers, and bards are commonly called arcane magic. These spells rely on an understanding— learned or intuitive—of the workings of the Weave. The caster plucks directly at the strands of the Weave to create the desired effect. Eldritch knights and arcane tricksters also use arcane magic. The spells of clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers are called divine magic. These spellcasters’ access to the Weave is mediated by divine power— gods, the divine forces of nature, or the sacred weight of a paladin’s oath.
Weavers prefer a more direct approach.

Creating a Weaver
The most important question to consider when creating your weaver is “Are you really sure you wouldn’t rather be playing something else?” Also ask “Are you sure spell failure is worth the extra versatility?”
QUICK BUILD
You can make a weaver quickly by following these suggestions. First, Charisma, Wisdom, and Intelligence should be your highest ability scores, followed by Constitution and then Dexterity. Second, choose the Sage background. Third, choose the cantrip1, cantrip2, cantrip3 cantrips, along with the following 1st-level spells: spell1, and spell2.



As a weaver, you gain the following class features.

Hit Dice: 1d6 per weaver level
Hit Points at 1st Level: 6 + your Constitution modifier
Hit Points at Higher Levels: 1d6 (or 4) + your Constitution modifier per weaver level after 1st


Armor: None
Weapons: Daggers, darts, slings, quarterstaffs, light crossbows
Tools: None
Saving Throws: Wisdom, Charisma
Skills: Choose two from Arcana, Investigation, Nature, Perception, Religion


You start with the following equipment, in addition to the equipment granted by your background:
• (a) a quarterstaff or (b) a dagger
• (a) a sling or (b) a light crossbow with 20 bolts
• An explorer’s pack and a magical focus


Your powers aren’t spells in the same way that wizards and clerics imagine them. Though they look and function in the same way, you aren’t working with a fabric of magic, but directly with the raw energies of the Weave itself.

CANTRIPS
At first level, you know three Cantrips of your choice from any spell list. You learn additional Cantrips of your choice at higher levels, as shown in the Cantrips Known column of the Weaver table.

SPELL POINTS
Each spell has a point cost based on its level. The Spell Point Cost table summarizes the cost in spell points of slots from 1st to 9th level. Cantrips don’t require slots and therefore don't require spell points.
Instead of gaining a number of spell slots to cast your spells from the Spellcasting feature, you gain a pool of spell points instead. You expend a number of spell points to create a spell slot of a given level, and then use that slot to cast a spell. You can't reduce your spell point total to less than 0, and you regain all spent spell points when you finish a long rest.
Spells of 6th level and higher are particularly taxing to cast. You can use spell points to create one slot of each level of 6th or higher. You can't create another slot of the same level until you finish a long rest.
The number of spell points you have to spend is based on your weaver level and Wisdom score, as shown in the Weaver table. Your level also determines the maximum-level spell slot you can create. Even though you might have enough points to create a slot above this maximum, you can't do so.

Spell Point Cost Table


Spell Level
Point Cost


1st
2


2nd
3


3rd
5


4th
6


5th
7


6th
9


7th
10


8th
11


9th
13



Spellcasting Ability and Learning Spells
Accessing the Weave requires study, intuition, and force of will. Because of its complexity, it requires more than the single-minded focus that most spellcasters have. Weavers use Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma in tandem when working the pure magic of the Weave.
Intelligence determines how many spells you can pull from the Weave. For each point of Intelligence Modifier, you learn one spell when you gain a level, chosen from any spell list.
Wisdom determines how often you can cast spells. The number of spell points you get each day is directly influenced by your Wisdom Modifier.
Charisma determines the power of your spells and how hard they are to resist. Your Spell Attack Bonus and Spell DC are tied to your Charisma score.
Spell save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Charisma modifier
Spell attack modifier = your proficiency bonus + your Charisma modifier

Spellcasting Focus
You can use either an arcane, druidic, or holy focus (found in chapter 5) as a spellcasting focus for your weaver spells.

Weave Magic
Whenever you attempt to cast a spell of first level or higher that you’ve learned from the Weave, roll a d20 and consult the Weaver Class Table. Weaver spells have a failure chance based on your level. At levels 1-5, there is a 20% failure rate on all spells of 1st level or higher. This failure rate drops to 15% from levels 6-10, 10% from 11-50, and 5% from 16-20. There is no way to lower your spell failure chance except for gaining levels.
Spells fail when your control over the Weave slips. On a failure, roll a d% and compare it to the Wild Magic Surge table (located in the Sorcerer Class section of the PHB) to learn the effects of your loss of control.




The followers of this path become more in tune with the Weave and learn to see how it is being manipulated by people and magic.
ACUTE PERCEPTION
When you choose this path at level two, you gain proficiency in the Perception skill if you don’t already have it, and your proficiency bonus is doubled for all Perception checks.
WEAVESENSE
Beginning at level six, you begin to sense changes in the Weave around you. This ability functions exactly like the spell Detect Magic, except that its range is only 5 feet (instead of 30), and it only requires concentration when you use your action to see magical auras.
WOVEN SIGHT
By level 10, followers of the Path of Perception have become much more observant.
Starting at 10th level, you can use your action to increase your powers of perception. When you do so, choose one of the following benefits, which lasts until you are incapacitated or you take a short or long rest. You can’t use the feature again until you finish a rest.
• Darkvision. You gain darkvision out to a range of 60 feet, or the range of your darkvision increases by an additional 60 feet, as described in chapter 8 of the PHB.
• Ethereal Sight. You can see into the Ethereal Plane within 60 feet of you.
• Greater Comprehension. You can read any language.
• See Invisibility. You can see invisible creatures and objects within 10 feet of you that are within line of sight.
WEAVER’S INTUITION
At level fourteen, your understanding of the Weave and increases senses allow you to feel when the Weave has been disturbed and gives you an edge to avoid its effects. You have advantage on your saving throws against spells.
RESTORE THE WEAVE
Once you’ve worked the Weave this long, you intuitively understand how to prevent others from altering it against your will. Beginning at 18th level, you can cast Dispel Magic twice per short rest without using spell points or requiring spell components. Alternatively, you can cast it as if using a 9th level spell slot, but you are unable to use this ability again for 1 week.
WEAVE REALITY
At 20th level, you have learned to force the Weave to your will in order to change reality. Once per short rest, if you would miss an attack, you can turn the miss into a hit. Alternatively, if you fail an ability check, you can treat the d20 roll as a 20.


The men and women who choose to follow this path wield incredible power, and risk sanity to use it.
TWIST THE WEAVE
Once you begin down this path at level 2, you gain the ability to directly touch the Weave and twist it to alter the fabric of reality. This is incredibly dangerous and risks the weaver losing his mind every time he does it. This path does not have additional features.
Choose one:
• Gain advantage on 1 attack, ability check, or saving throw. [bonus action]
• Cause someone else to gain disadvantage on 1 attack, ability check, or saving throw. [reaction]
• Increase the saving throw DC for 1 spell by an amount equal to your Proficiency bonus. [bonus action]
• Increase the damage of a spell by a number of d6’s equal to your Proficiency bonus. [bonus action]
• Gain resistance to one type of damage (bludgeoning, piercing, slashing, acid, cold, fire, lightning, necrotic, poison, radiant, or thunder) for a number of rounds equal to your Proficiency bonus. [reaction]

Every time you use this ability, roll on the SHORT-TERM MADNESS table. The effects of this madness cannot be healed by any means short of a Wish spell or effect of equivalent power (subject to DM’s approval).

SHORT-TERM MADNESS
dlOO Effect (lasts ldlO minutes)
01-05 You retreat into your mind and become paralyzed. The effect ends if you take any damage.
06-10 You become incapacitated and spend the duration screaming, laughing, or weeping.
11-15 You become frightened and must use every opportunity to flee from the source of the fear.
16-30 You begin babbling and are incapable of normal speech or spellcasting.
31-35 You must use your action each round to attack the nearest creature.
36-45 You experience vivid hallucinations and have disadvantage on ability checks.
46-55 You do whatever anyone tells you to do that isn't obviously self-destructive.
56-70 You experience an overpowering urge to eat something strange such as dirt, slime, or offal and must spend your turns doing so for the duration.
71-75 You are stunned.
76-80 You fall unconscious.
81–90 You feel fine.
91-100 Roll on the LONG-TERM MADNESS table.

LONG-TERM MADNESS
dlOO Effect (lasts ldlO x 10 hours)
01-05 You feel compelled to repeat a specific activity over and over, such as washing hands, touching things, praying, or counting coins.
06-15 You experience vivid hallucinations and have disadvantage on ability checks.
16-25 You suffer extreme paranoia. You have disadvantage on Wisdom and Charisma checks.
26-30 You regard something (usually the source of madness) with intense revulsion, as if affected by the antipathy effect of the antipathy/sympathy spell.
31-35 You experience a powerful delusion. Choose a potion. You imagine that you are under its effects.
36-40 You become attached to a "lucky charm," such as a person or an object, and have disadvantage on attack rolls, ability checks, and saving throws while more than 30 feet from it.
41-50 You are blinded (25%) or deafened (75%).
51-60 You experience uncontrollable tremors or tics, which impose disadvantage on attack rolls, ability checks, and saving throws that involve Strength or Dexterity.
61-70 You suffer from partial amnesia. You know who you are and retain racial traits and class features, but don't recognize other people or remember anything that happened before the madness took effect.
71-80 Whenever you take damage, you must succeed on a DC 15 Wisdom saving throw or be affected as though you failed a saving throw against the confusion spell. The confusion effect lasts for 1 minute.
81-85 You lose the ability to speak.
86-90 You fall unconscious. No amount of jostling or damage can wake you.
91-100 Roll again on the INDEFINITE MADNESS table.

INDEFINITE MADNESS
dlOO Flaw (permanent)
01-15 "Being drunk keeps me sane."
16-25 "I keep whatever I find ."
26-30 "I try to become more like someone else I know, adopting your style of dress , mannerisms, and name."
31-35 "I must bend the truth, exaggerate, or outright lie to be interesting to other people."
36-45 "Achieving my goal is the only thing of interest to me, and I'll ignore everything else to pursue it."
46-50 "I find it hard to care about anything that goes on around me ."
51-55 "I don 't like the way people judge me all the time."
56-70 "I am the smartest, wisest, strongest, fastest, and most beautiful person I know."
71 -80 "I am convinced that powerful enemies are hunting me, and their agents are everywhere I go. I am sure they're watching me all the time."
81-85 "There's only one person I can trust. And only I can see this special friend ."
86-95 "I can't take anything seriously. The more serious the situation, the funnier I find it."
96-100 "I've discovered that I really like killing people."



The Weaver: What is it?
The weaver has a kernel of each other caster class, but is unlike anything else. Below, I’ll try to break down the mechanics of the class in a straight forward manner.

Base Survivability: (Most like-Wizard)
With a d6 Hit Die, no armor proficiency, and very few weapon proficiencies, weavers won’t be mixing it up in melee. They are casters, and will either stay away from their enemies or very likely die. Given the fact that their spells will almost always have a failure chance, they cannot even fully rely on magic to get them out of sticky situations like other “squishies” do.

Saves and Skills: (Most like-Cleric)
I wanted the saves to be in line with other casters, which focus on mental saves. I chose to use the same saves as clerics, imagining characters of this class to be steady and strong-willed. All skill choices are mental skills and duplicate a cleric’s skill list with the exception of Investigation, which replaces Insight and History.

Spellcasting: (Most like-Sorcerer)
A weaver’s bread and butter. The first change is the removal of slots in favor of using spell points. To me, spell points feel like 3.5 sorcerers. Weavers don’t spend their time praying or pouring over old tomes, so preparing their spells just felt unnatural. Spell points function exactly like spell slots with 2 exceptions:
1. You can only cast one 6th level spell instead of two at levels 19 and 20
2. You have greater control over what power level of spell to cast, whether you want to use a large percentage of your pool on just a few really powerful spells, or conserve your strength all day with a bunch of low level spells.
I’ve copied the DMG spell point variant directly into that section, to save time.

There are two powerful features available to weavers. They can learn a greater variety of spells, and they can cast a few more spells a day than other classes. An astute DM may see that the spell point values in the weaver class table are higher than those given in the DMG (as long as the characters Wisdom score is at least a 16). It’s true. At each level, a weaver will have enough points to cast their highest level spell 1, 2, or 3 more times a day than a caster of another class if their stats are high enough.
To balance these powerful features, weavers suffer from perpetual spell failure that they cannot overcome. It begins at 20% at lower levels, though grows smaller as the class progresses.


Weaver Archetypes
The Path of Perception
This path represents the increased awareness a person would acquire as they become more familiar with the Weave. I think of it like Neo, eventually seeing the Matrix code everywhere after he “leveled up” by the end of the movie.
In terms of power level, there is nothing here that is super strong.
• Expertise in 1 skill is under par compared to other things that grant similar bonuses, such as the Knowledge domain, 1 level in Rogue, the Skilled feat, etc, which all give expertise or access to multiple skills.
• Weavesense is always on, which is powerful, but the range is dropped to 16% of full power, and it still requires concentration when the aura ability is used. Altogether, having a limited range, full-time access to a level 1 spell is solid, but not overpowering, especially when compared to the 3rd level spells getting thrown around by this point.
• Reflavored version of “The Third Eye”, the level 10 ability from the School of Divination.
• Weaver’s Intuition is just a reflavored “Spell Resistance” ability from the wizard’s School of Abjuration archetype, given in the same way at the same level.
• Access to a 3rd level spell for free a few times per short rest is also mostly flavor. It is useful, sure, but not very flashy, nor is it supposed to be. By this level, a weaver’s “Shininess” is in their spells, not their other class features. They should be thinking about magic all day, every day.
• The capstone is just a reflavored “Lucky” capstone from the rogue class.

The Path of Madness
This path started as a joke, but I think it’s actually a solid concept. Instead of multiple features while you level up, you gain a single ability that can save you or damn you…and take your party with you.
You gain access to 5 abilities, all of which are very powerful. The only rule is, every time you use one, you go a little crazy. In game terms, you have a very high chance of getting knocked right out of the fight every time you use this feature. There is also the chance to not only knock yourself out of the fight, but to take your party out, as well, giving the monsters freedom to eat you at their leisure. There is also a chance of going permanently nuts!
The Madness tables that I’ve included are based on the tables in the DMG, though slightly modified for clarity and to make it a little more dangerous to use the feature.
All in all, this path gives a very real power boost, but has some really serious repercussions.

TL;DR- The books always point out that “over-powered” refers to something that is auto-include…something that everyone will choose because it’s too good not to. The weaver class increases class rewards by increasing risk as well, making it an interesting, but very unpredictable choice that will appeal to relatively chaotic players.

boxfox
2015-06-03, 11:45 AM
Holy crap. 80 views and not a single comment? Did I step in something? *Checks shoe*

Ninja_Prawn
2015-06-03, 12:15 PM
Lol.

I think everyone just exhausted all their mental energy on your other thread. Also, this subforum doesn't get nearly as much 'passing trade' as the main 5e one.

I would like to help, but I can't wrap my head around all the complexities and implications of this class...

Oh, and your image displays fine for me.

Inchoroi
2015-06-03, 12:31 PM
Holy crap. 80 views and not a single comment? Did I step in something? *Checks shoe*

Very interesting class; however, I think the problem you're having is that its the most MAD class I've ever seen. You have to have decent Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma to make the class good at what it does, which is just kind of crazy.

Chronologist
2015-06-03, 01:08 PM
Here are my thoughts step by step. Apologies if I'm overly harsh.

Hit Dice: Perfectly fine for a full caster
Proficiencies: Same as sorcerer, so perfectly fine
Starting Equipment: Not bad at all
Cantrips: As many as the wizard, which is a good number IMO
Spell Points: So, essentially this caster functions as if it had the Sorcerer's Sorcery Points class feature from level 1, only with a few modifications. My issues are thus:

First, it scales off of Wisdom, which is something I'm not very keen on. Spellcasters specifically don't get bonus spells based on higher casting stats in 5E, and I think your class should be no different.

Second, the additional spell points a character gains based on their Wisdom score is huge. In D&D 3.5 a caster generally got one additional spell per day per point of casting stat modifier, starting with level 1 spells and increasing from there (i.e. Wis 16 gave an extra level 1, 2, and 3 spell, and ONLY if you are high enough level to actually cast that level of spell. Your system more or less gives a character one additional spell of their highest level possible per point of Wisdom modifier, which I think is pretty extreme. I would remove or seriously tone down the benefits from a high wisdom score.

Third, according to your table a character with 11 Wisdom or less would be unable to cast spells as a Weaver, which I think is a misguided choice (if intentional). You can be a Wizard with 10 Int, heck you can have 9 Int, all it impacts is the saving throw DC of your spells and some of your attacks with cantrips.

Learning Spells: This is quite problematic for several reasons as well.

First, like Spell Points it prevents a character with Intelligence 11 or less from being able to cast Weaver spells, since they would be unable to learn any.

Second, it doesn't follow any of the other caster classes metrics of spells known. Bards, Eldritch Knights, Rangers, Arcane Tricksters, Sorcerers, and Warlocks have a set number of spells known based on their class level. Clerics, Druids, and Wizards prepare spells from their list to be able to cast that day, and are limited to a total number of prepared spells equal to their class level plus their casting modifier. Paladins are the same, only with half their level added instead of their full level. In no case is the character's stat multiplied to determine spells known.

Third, this class has access to every spell list in the game, making them easily five times as versatile as any other kind of caster. Compounded that with a reasonable 16-17 Int they can know and prepare up to 60 spells by level 20, possibly more if they raise their Int over time. That's far too many spells.

Spell Failure Chance: I don't really see the point of this. It doesn't make the class substantially weaker, you still know tons of spells and can cast them several more times per day than your average caster so long as you invest in some decent Int and Wis. Wild Magic isn't actually all that bad, sometimes you luck out and get something incredibly helpful, and honestly I don't think taking an iconic ability from another class is a good idea.

Paths: Before I get into the specifics of each path, you should know that your Paths have 6 abilities each while pretty much every other class archetype has 4 abilities.

The Path of Perception
Acute Perception: Doubled Perception proficiency at level 2 is pretty amazing, but not unreasonable.
Weavesense: Not that great for a level 6 ability, I'd extend the range by a few feet.
Woven Sight: Looks good to me.
Weaver's Intuition: A bit powerful, but it's flavourful and makes sense for the class. I'd allow it.
Restore the Weave: Pretty powerful, especially if your GM lets you take multiple short rests during an adventure, but not 'broken' in any way.
Weave Reality: This is just the Rogue's Stroke of Luck ability renamed. You should probably put something else in here, like perhaps gaining Truesight at a range of 5 feet?

The Path of Madness
Twist the Weave: The benefits and drawbacks from this ability are just too large. Raising a spell's DC by 2-6, dealing 2d6-6d6 bonus damage with a spell (even multi-target ones like Fireball), that's some pretty serious mojo. At the same time the drawback is so massive, it either makes you useless / a huge detriment to the entire rest of the party or (in the case of some Long-Term and all Indefinite effects) makes your character insufferable.

Loot at Wild Magic; it grants you the ability to gain advantage to any one roll of your choice per long rest, and when you cast a non-cantrip spell the GM can choose to recharge your use in return for a 5% chance of a random good or bad magical effect occurring. It's a class feature that is built around a net-positive effect (getting advantage) that has a very slight chance of earning either (generally speaking) a very good or slightly bad outcome.

Twist the Weave is completely different; it's a quick, immediate bonus in return for a roughly 89% chance of suffering a debilitating drawback that will make your character a huge detriment to everyone, and a 1% chance of instead becoming unbearable to be around.

boxfox
2015-06-03, 04:44 PM
Huzzah, replies! :)

@ Ninja_Prawn: You may be right. :P I apologize for the complexity. I like really crazy classes, and the book-keeping is fun for me.

@ Inchoroi: The MADness of the class is intentional. I wanted you to have to focus your best scores on mental attributes. It's a fairly large draw-back in my opinion, which is one of the balancing factors for the class. I wanted people to really WANT to play the class in order to play it...they have to love the flavor of it or the sort of insane requirements to use it would be too much for them.

@ Chronologist: First, that is exceptional feedback. Thank you for taking so much of your time to help me. I'm going to quote you all over.



Spell Points: So, essentially this caster functions as if it had the Sorcerer's Sorcery Points class feature from level 1, only with a few modifications. My issues are thus:

This actually isn't supposed to be like Sorcery points at all. It's a variant system presenting in the DMG. I forget the page but it's in the Workshop section.



First, it scales off of Wisdom, which is something I'm not very keen on. Spellcasters specifically don't get bonus spells based on higher casting stats in 5E, and I think your class should be no different.

I accept your reluctance to scale it off of Wisdom, though (if I keep this system) I may keep it. The part of this quote that makes me stop to think is the last sentence. You're right...that's not a thing in 5e at all. I may drop this system. I have to think on it.



Second, the additional spell points a character gains based on their Wisdom score is huge. In D&D 3.5 a caster generally got one additional spell per day per point of casting stat modifier, starting with level 1 spells and increasing from there (i.e. Wis 16 gave an extra level 1, 2, and 3 spell, and ONLY if you are high enough level to actually cast that level of spell. Your system more or less gives a character one additional spell of their highest level possible per point of Wisdom modifier, which I think is pretty extreme. I would remove or seriously tone down the benefits from a high wisdom score.

It gives exactly 1 extra spell/day of the highest level you can cast per Ability Modifier increase. I agree with your feedback. I'll think on this.



Third, according to your table a character with 11 Wisdom or less would be unable to cast spells as a Weaver, which I think is a misguided choice (if intentional). You can be a Wizard with 10 Int, heck you can have 9 Int, all it impacts is the saving throw DC of your spells and some of your attacks with cantrips.

Good catch. This was unintentional and can be fixed.



Learning Spells: This is quite problematic for several reasons as well.

First, like Spell Points it prevents a character with Intelligence 11 or less from being able to cast Weaver spells, since they would be unable to learn any.

IF this system stays, I'll make it 1 (or 2?) spells per level, possibly with bonus spells learned for high scores. Originally, it was a SET 2 spells per level, but each had a 25% failure to learn chance. To offset this, every spell you cast (level 1 or higher) had a small chance of allowing you to learn extra secrets from the weave (capped to a max # = your proficiency bonus each level). This system seemed really fun. I may reinstigate it. Thoughts?



Second, it doesn't follow any of the other caster classes metrics of spells known. Bards, Eldritch Knights, Rangers, Arcane Tricksters, Sorcerers, and Warlocks have a set number of spells known based on their class level. Clerics, Druids, and Wizards prepare spells from their list to be able to cast that day, and are limited to a total number of prepared spells equal to their class level plus their casting modifier. Paladins are the same, only with half their level added instead of their full level. In no case is the character's stat multiplied to determine spells known.

I'm okay with it not following conventions for this aspect, though I'm NOT okay with how far away it is. Toning this number down to something closer to other "spontaneous" casters is reasonable.



Third, this class has access to every spell list in the game, making them easily five times as versatile as any other kind of caster. Compounded that with a reasonable 16-17 Int they can know and prepare up to 60 spells by level 20, possibly more if they raise their Int over time. That's far too many spells.

Agreed.



Spell Failure Chance: I don't really see the point of this. It doesn't make the class substantially weaker, you still know tons of spells and can cast them several more times per day than your average caster so long as you invest in some decent Int and Wis. Wild Magic isn't actually all that bad, sometimes you luck out and get something incredibly helpful, and honestly I don't think taking an iconic ability from another class is a good idea.

It DOES make you weaker. 20% chance for that level 1 (possibly critical) spell to not only fail, but blow up in your face? That's devastating. It does get quite toned down, later, though. For all of the "not that bad" things Wild Magic has, it also has some "oh crap" things... Trying to Charm someone in a social setting, accidently cast Fireball centered on yourself instead? Potentially instant death. I didn't think about "stealing" from other classes, for the simple (short-sighted) reason that there are no sorcerers in my party. You're right though...need to make it compatible and not step on toes.



Paths: Before I get into the specifics of each path, you should know that your Paths have 6 abilities each while pretty much every other class archetype has 4 abilities.

They only have 6 because I added in the level 18 and 20 abilities instead of having normal class capstones. Call it laziness. :P



Weave Reality: This is just the Rogue's Stroke of Luck ability renamed. You should probably put something else in here, like perhaps gaining Truesight at a range of 5 feet?

Given that it's the capstone of the class, this might be a good idea. The flavor certainly works great. I'll consider that.



The Path of Madness
Twist the Weave: The benefits and drawbacks from this ability are just too large. Raising a spell's DC by 2-6, dealing 2d6-6d6 bonus damage with a spell (even multi-target ones like Fireball), that's some pretty serious mojo. At the same time the drawback is so massive, it either makes you useless / a huge detriment to the entire rest of the party or (in the case of some Long-Term and all Indefinite effects) makes your character insufferable.

Loot at Wild Magic; it grants you the ability to gain advantage to any one roll of your choice per long rest, and when you cast a non-cantrip spell the GM can choose to recharge your use in return for a 5% chance of a random good or bad magical effect occurring. It's a class feature that is built around a net-positive effect (getting advantage) that has a very slight chance of earning either (generally speaking) a very good or slightly bad outcome.

Twist the Weave is completely different; it's a quick, immediate bonus in return for a roughly 89% chance of suffering a debilitating drawback that will make your character a huge detriment to everyone, and a 1% chance of instead becoming unbearable to be around.

I got nothin'. :P You're absolutely right. It was barely thought-out at all, and only in there because every other class has at least 2 archetypes. It started because of an off-handed joke made by one of our other players. In my defense, I made the class specifically for myself and I would NEVER take this path! :)
That said, I'll probably just delete it. I don't have the time or inclination to think up a completely new path right now.

I've got a great deal to think about. Thank you guys, sincerely. I'll post any changes once I've made them.

Chronologist
2015-06-03, 09:53 PM
First, that is exceptional feedback. Thank you for taking so much of your time to help me. I'm going to quote you all over.

It's no trouble, you clearly put quite a bit of effort into this class and it's only reasonable that I put effort into my critique as well.


This actually isn't supposed to be like Sorcery points at all. It's a variant system presenting in the DMG. I forget the page but it's in the Workshop section.

You're quite right. My mistake. As it stands the class 'averages out' with other spell point casters at 14-15 Wis, with fewer spells per day at lower Wis and more spells per day at higher Wis.


I accept your reluctance to scale it off of Wisdom, though (if I keep this system) I may keep it. The part of this quote that makes me stop to think is the last sentence. You're right...that's not a thing in 5e at all. I may drop this system. I have to think on it.

If you want the class to be dependent on multiple attributes you can give them a class feature based on their Wisdom modifier, that would reward them for high Wis but not require it.


It gives exactly 1 extra spell/day of the highest level you can cast per Ability Modifier increase. I agree with your feedback. I'll think on this.

Thanks.


Good catch. This was unintentional and can be fixed.

Great!


IF this system stays, I'll make it 1 (or 2?) spells per level, possibly with bonus spells learned for high scores. Originally, it was a SET 2 spells per level, but each had a 25% failure to learn chance. To offset this, every spell you cast (level 1 or higher) had a small chance of allowing you to learn extra secrets from the weave (capped to a max # = your proficiency bonus each level). This system seemed really fun. I may reinstigate it. Thoughts?

How about this? When you first take a level of Weaver, you select the Bard, Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Warlock, or Wizard spell list. You start the game with two 1st-level spells from that spell list, and one 1st-level spell from any other list. You gain two new spells known each level, one of which MUST be from the chosen list above, while the other MUST be from a different spell list. Each day you can prepare a number of spells equal to your class level + your Intelligence modifier.

I have no idea if that's balanced but it gives your character some versatility while preventing them from taking ALL the best spells from every spell list.


I'm okay with it not following conventions for this aspect, though I'm NOT okay with how far away it is. Toning this number down to something closer to other "spontaneous" casters is reasonable.

You can have your caster have more spells known than the core casting classes, that's fine (my idea above doesn't follow the standard rubric either).


Agreed.

Cool.


It DOES make you weaker. 20% chance for that level 1 (possibly critical) spell to not only fail, but blow up in your face? That's devastating. It does get quite toned down, later, though. For all of the "not that bad" things Wild Magic has, it also has some "oh crap" things... Trying to Charm someone in a social setting, accidently cast Fireball centered on yourself instead? Potentially instant death. I didn't think about "stealing" from other classes, for the simple (short-sighted) reason that there are no sorcerers in my party. You're right though...need to make it compatible and not step on toes.

Perhaps you could have your failure chance apply to spells that don't come from your 'favoured' spell list?


They only have 6 because I added in the level 18 and 20 abilities instead of having normal class capstones. Call it laziness. :P

I'm sure you can find some cool abilities to give your class :smallsmile:


Given that it's the capstone of the class, this might be a good idea. The flavor certainly works great. I'll consider that.

Truesight can be extremely handy, 5-30 feet would be my recommended limitation on it.


I got nothin'. :P You're absolutely right. It was barely thought-out at all, and only in there because every other class has at least 2 archetypes. It started because of an off-handed joke made by one of our other players. In my defense, I made the class specifically for myself and I would NEVER take this path! :)
That said, I'll probably just delete it. I don't have the time or inclination to think up a completely new path right now.

Have you considered something like the Wild Surge class feature of the Wilder from the Psionics Handbook? By accepting a small (5-30%) chance to lose 'spell points' and your next turn, a Wilder can increase the power of their spells, equivalent to (in 5E) raising the spell's level between 1 and 3 steps, even above the maximum spell slot a Wilder has access to. For example, a level 6 character could cast a Fireball as a 3rd-level spell, then Wild Surge the Fireball so it acts like a 4th-level spell instead (so increased damage, mainly).

The Wilder's main balancing point, however, was that it was EXTREMELY limited in its spell selection, kinda the opposite of the Weaver really, so take my recommendation with a grain of salt.


I've got a great deal to think about. Thank you guys, sincerely. I'll post any changes once I've made them.

Sounds great! I look forward to seeing what you come up with.

Fizban
2015-06-04, 03:53 AM
Warning, negative review incoming! :smallamused: Class could use some introduction before the table, the notes for DMs are really notes anyone should be reading. You've also gone a bit spoiler happy, nested spoilers are almost never required and only make it harder to read (and thus less likely anyone will comment).

So, why would I play this class? Spells are supposed to be reliable so anything that works against that is automatically ignored without good reason. What this class does is exceed the normal limits of the game by allowing you to pile on more stats. Normally every caster has the same spells per day or spell points (with wis/druid having a small recovery mechanic and sorcerer having some extra ammo/oomph), but this class at 16+ wis has more spell points. Normally wizards all have the same spells known, but at 16 int this class has 50% more, and apparently doesn't need to prepare a daily list either. Normally a class has a somewhat restricted list of spells, while this class has none. The minimum requirements to play like a normal caster are int 14/wis 14/cha X, and you still have spell failure. Therefore, in order to get anything you must dump AC and hit points in addition to strength. You're also gonna need to extend the spell points/wisdom section because there are magic items that can take you past the limit of 20, and you should note what happens if a character acquires a Headband of Intellect. The class can be further broken at higher levels if the DM introduces classic ability score items like the Cloak of Charisma or Periapt of Wisdom, which were for some reason left out of the DMG (without a reason given most people will see no problem bringing them back I think, there's already a cha booster in another thread).

I would never play this under normal circumstances, extra failure on top of spellcasting already being fixed to the same failure rates as everything else in the game is a non-starter. However, for a game starting at high levels it's far more powerful, since then you can build starting with int for maximum spells and not have to deal with the levels where your spells have an extra 20-50% failure (delayed charisma), and instead skip straight to the part where your spell failure is low and you're better than all the other casters. So you've recreated the old 3.x problem where casters were "balanced" by being worse in early game and overpowered in late game.

I have no suggestions because I do not believe the core concept can be fixed. 5e has already locked almost every spell into the same failure chances and mechanics as the rest of the game by focusing on hit points, removing "touch" AC, and setting saves and saving throws to scale at the same level. Adding an extra failure rate that is reduced at higher levels runs inherently counter to the whole premise of the game: that success/failure rates should actually stay about the same weather you're low or high level (I heard someone call it "bounded accuracy, a nice term, rather than 3.5's "insane asylum" accuracy), so high level characters benefit by having more options and the simple toughness and DPS required to face high level monsters or crush hordes of lowbies. (I also got some serious deja vu there, I think I may have reviewed another spell failure class in the past)

Scratch that, I guess I do have a suggestion: if you want spell failure divorced from the spells themselves then you could match it to expected failure rates. Put a stat requirement on learning spells (10+spell level) to ensure investment of an ability score. Then, all spells have their full effect if they work (no saves or attack rolls required), but the failure rate is 50%, all the time every time. Maybe it drops to 40% at 10th or 15th level to reflect how most character would have their casting stat maxed by that point (maxed offense is a bit better than 50% accurate), learned how to target weak saves, and possibly get bonuses from magic items that you can't use. Trying to use more detail than that (comparing expected builds to the monster building table and/or AC and saves of all monsters in the manual to get a precise expected accuracy) is a bunch of work for little benefit. It's also quite boring so I don't actually expect you to use it, but there is a clear answer to "Why would I play this?" for this version: using a flat failure rate and ignoring attacks or saves lets you use spells on targets that are supposed to be resistant to them (push around high str guys, charm high wis guys, etc), and makes all of your continuous spells overpowered since targets don't get new saving throws against your disabling or DoT. This would be fixed by having an class spell list devoid of those spells, but I expect once that's done there won't be nearly enough combat spells left to fill out the inflated spells known, so it doesn't work either.

Celcey
2015-06-04, 07:31 AM
I really like the general concept, but I have a few points. For one thing, the class is by far too MAD. Charisma makes the most sense, since you're using the force of your personality to control the Weave. You already need halfway decent Wis, Dex, and Con scores anyhow, so I think just Cha is fine. If you want, give them an important buffer based on one of those three, but keep the spell stat to one.

Even if you get a plus five Cha mod, that's 100 spells- not even a third of the wizard list, and less than every other list except Warlock. And that's only when you have a +5 mod at level 20. Also, when your modifier goes up, the amount of spells you know should change as if that's always been your mod. So a level 4 character whose mod goes from 3 to 4 should know 16 spells, not 13.

As for the spell failure thing, I would make a d20 chart. For example, the spell goes off in a completely different direction. Roll a d6 for which direction (1 is north, 2 is northeast, 3 is east, etc.). One on the list should definitely be that the spell just fails. Or you have disadvantage against that target, or the target has advantage against you, for the next round. Or the attack just hits whoever is nearest to you.

None of them should be completely deadly (although, like fireball on the wild magic surge, it could potentially be deadly to a low level character), but they should all be a drawback.

As for the path of perception abilities, they're pretty good, but a couple of notes: for Weavesense, I would have it last for one minute, and be usable once per rest, maybe more at higher levels. Also, in Restore the Weave, I would just change the wording to say you can cast dispel magic twice at it's lowest level.

Also, I notice that you have 8 dead levels. I'm AFB, so I can't compare, but is that normal? I also thing you need to do more with the base class. Since you made this class for yourself, I understand if you don't want/need a second archtype (the madness one doesn't count, that's not a real subclass), but I think some base class abilities would be good, maybe also replacing one or two of the subclass abilities. There's nothing wrong with the subclass having more abilities than the base class, but in this case, the base class seems to be practically non-existent.

boxfox
2015-06-04, 10:03 AM
I really appreciate all of the feedback everyone.
I've thought a lot about this class, its goals, and what you've said.

The class began with a simple concept: access to both divine and arcane spells. The problem (as always) was the question of how best to balance that extra slab of awesome.

I made the classic mistake and pulled all of the things I loved about all of the classes that my creation was based off of. Over time, I came up with a lot of interesting and unique abilities, but it just gradually became too much.
This class just isn't balanced.

I've gone back to square 1 and reevaluated my core concept. I think I've actually found a much better and more balanced way to get the flavor that I was looking for in the Weaver.

I didn't remake an entire magic system, just added a homebrew domain. It's called the Magic Domain, though that will probably be reflavored into something less generic.

I've posted it on these forums, and would love it if you'd give it a chance.
Here it is. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?419138-(Yet-another)-Magic-Domain&p=19349730#post19349730)

Thanks again for your thoughts and patience.