Advice for fighting dragons

[redwood]

Let's assume you're a grizzled, old adventurer who hangs out in the local adventurer's tavern reminiscing about the old days. Even though you don't have Perform (oratory), the younger crowd always perk up their ears when you spin tales of your past escapades just because they know you'll drop crumbs of wisdom that could save them next time they're facing off against a BBEG.

A group of four heads your way from the bar. You'd guess they're about 15th level judging from the battle scars and the mismatched magical equipment they've gathered over many a dungeon crawl. It's quite obvious they're a traditional crew: fighter, cleric, rogue, and sorcerer.

How typical, the high-charisma sorcerer is the spokesperson. He offers you a mug of the good ale and speaks: "Good sir, you are famed far and wide as a most experienced champion against dragon kind. We seek to overcome a black dragon by the name of Beschesque. What advice give you to tip the odds in our favor? Be it equipment to purchase, spells to prepare, or tactics to employ."

You've heard of this Beschesque; he's about a CR16 so it will be a tough battle. Hmm, what advice could you give?

[Justwar.]

Don't fight the dragon. Go and burn down and pillage the local temple of Lathander and leave evidence that the Black Dragon committed the crime.

[Saph]

Plan ahead. Find out as much as you can about the dragon in advance - you'll need all the edges you can get.

As for spells, acid resistance is obvious. Some kind of fly speed or mobility booster is essential for the melee fighters, otherwise the dragon can just stay airborne and avoid all your attacks.

Tactics-wise, the most important thing is don't stand next to him! Dragons do an insane amount of damage on a full attack. Don't let them get one. My party fought a high-CR dragon a little while ago. It wiped out the other four members of my group for exactly that reason - they let it full attack them. I managed to survive and keep going for 7-8 rounds on my own because I didn't.

Finally, if you can figure out a way to avoid fighting the dragon at all, do it. A CR 16 dragon against a normal CR 15 party isn't all that great a matchup.

- Saph

[Bears With Lasers]

Well, all it takes is a talented mage, and you should be able to take the dragon on without too many problems. Have your warriors scatter so it has to make fly-by attacks, and have the sorcerer move into range, and use the Arcane Reach he learned as an Archmage to deliver an Irresistible Dance--although you may wish to dispel the dragon, first (a Rod of Quicken Spell can help, there).

Alternatively, if you can access fantastic spells beyond those commonly taught (i.e. non-PHB sources), you can hit the dragon where it hurts: its agility. Drain that away, and the dragon is so much meat.

Of course, keep in mind it will have its lair underwater, in a swamp, so make sure you can fight in that environment. True Seeing should pierce away any illusions. Find it, hit it with the right spells--and it's gone. Even if you lack the right spells, provided you're clever or charismatic enough, simple mind-assaulting spells should do the job. It just might take a few of them.

PROTIP: a Heroes' Feast will keep you all safe and sound from the dragon's terrifying aura.

[Variable Arcana]

Bears- A 15th level sorcerer has neither the 7th-level slot which Arcane Reach costs (or equivalently required for the Archmage PC), nor the 8th-level slot Irresistable Dance requires.

Of course, Rays of Clumsiness and Exhaustion are still a killer.

[Bears With Lasers]

A 15th-level sorcerer has 7th-level spells. He got them at 14th level. He doesn't have 8th level spells, which is his own damn fault for being a soceror rather than a wizard. :P
Solution: get a wizard to do the job. Or just hammer away at the dragon with Insanity and the like.

[Jacob Orlove]

http://bb.bbboy.net/thegamingden-viewthread?forum=1&thread=818&postnum=0 has a bunch of tips, of various levels of quality. Frank Trollman's posts, as usual, are the best of the lot.

[Dausuul]

Let's assume you're a grizzled, old adventurer who hangs out in the local adventurer's tavern reminiscing about the old days. Even though you don't have Perform (oratory), the younger crowd always perk up their ears when you spin tales of your past escapades just because they know you'll drop crumbs of wisdom that could save them next time they're facing off against a BBEG.

A group of four heads your way from the bar. You'd guess they're about 15th level judging from the battle scars and the mismatched magical equipment they've gathered over many a dungeon crawl. It's quite obvious they're a traditional crew: fighter, cleric, rogue, and sorcerer.

How typical, the high-charisma sorcerer is the spokesperson. He offers you a mug of the good ale and speaks: "Good sir, you are famed far and wide as a most experienced champion against dragon kind. We seek to overcome a black dragon by the name of Beschesque. What advice give you to tip the odds in our favor? Be it equipment to purchase, spells to prepare, or tactics to employ."

You've heard of this Beschesque; he's about a CR16 so it will be a tough battle. Hmm, what advice could you give?

"Mmmm... well, you ask me, Beschesque will eat you young whippersnappers for dinner. But if you're bent on tryin' anyway, here's my advice.

"First, get yerself some protection from his breath, dangit! I see you've got a holy feller there, he oughta be able to fix you up. Make sure you get the charm that soaks up the whole blast, though [Protection from Energy]. Don't never all stand in a line, neither. You'd think that'd go without sayin', but you'd be surprised how often folks'll end up all lined up in a neat row, and all the dragon's gotta do is crane his neck around and spray you all down. You want to spread out, so he can't blast more'n one or two o' you.

"Second, dragons is scary. Not like a big bear is scary, or even like an explodin' mountain is scary, but like a demon from the blackest pits o' hell that's comin' for yer soul is scary. Brave men turn into quiverin' heaps when a dragon looks at 'em. You want some kind o' spells to protect you against fear, or half yer crew is gonna break and run before the fight even gets started.

"Third, don't tackle him in the open if you can avoid it. You look mighty fancy with that big sword, young man, but lookin' fancy is about all you're gonna do if Beschesque can get off the ground. Best to take him in his lair if you can--but watch out, 'cause a smart dragon will set traps around his cave. And they're all smart. Bring along bows, because if he do get skyborne you're gonna need 'em.

"Fourth, don't stand toe-to-toe with him. Leastways, not unless you got one hell of a sturdy shield and armor like St. Cuthbert hisself. Remember, he's twenty tons of claws and scales and pure black hate, and you're just a feller with a steel toothpick. You hit him and you back away. Keep him comin' after you, don't you go to him.

"Fifth, you there with the purty hat and the pouch o' bat wings. You're gonna be the one what does him in, and don't you ferget it. You stand well back and pound him with magic. You know how to cast that one, whatcher call it, that Assay Spell Resistance thing? No? Well, get yerself a scroll, then! Last thing you want is yer spells bouncin' off. Lots o' sorcerors go in fer blastin' spells, balls o' fire and storms o' ice and whatnot. I hope you got more sense, there's better ways, but if blastin's what you got, well, then, blast away. Bring along a wand if you have to.

"And if you do got better spells, remember--messin' with his mind is easier'n messin' with his body. Not that either one is what you call a cakewalk, mind you. There's that one spell that shoots this black ray [Enervation], that's a good way to lead off. Suck out some o' his life force first an' he'll be an easier target for whatever you're gonna do next.

"While he's doing that, the holy feller there better be up front and center, or that big lad with the sword and the scruffy-lookin' lass with the daggers are gonna be puddles o' goo on the floor. Yer job is to keep yer buddies alive, maybe dish out a little pain yerself, but fer the sake o' whatever gods you pray to, keep him off the sorceror! Smart dragons go fer the wizardly folks first, an' like I said, they're all smart.

"An' last of all, make sure you've got an escape route for when things go bad. Dragons is fast. You ain't gonna get far tryin' to outrun him, nor outflyin' him neither. Either you get yerself a hidey-hole of some kind that's too small for him to fit in--an' it better have a back door--or you get one o' them teleportin' scrolls or some such. Or some o' them spooky horses the wizards ride [Phantom Steed]. Them's about the only things that go faster'n a dragon on the wing.

"That's about all I got to say. Might keep you sorry lot alive. Just keep in mind"--holds up hand with strangely melted-looking little finger--"better men than you have tangled with Beschesque, an' he's still there..."

[Viscount Einstrauss]

The biggest exploitable dragon weaknesses-

Their type. A lot of dragons have a very specific weakness that a proper band of adventurers can use to their advantage. A little research ahead of time on particular dragons will aid the party tremendously.

Their size. Except when they're quite young and hardly a threat, they're going to have trouble getting into small holes. If you force a dragon to fight you through a narrow hallway, he's going to be limited to his breath weapon. Depending on how you've prepared, this might make a dragon highly ineffective at dealing damage to your squishy little bodies.

Arrogance. Evil dragons especially have an ego problem. They don't consider you walking meals to be very dangerous. This can be played up to lower a dragon's guard and perhaps lead to a surprise attack.

Flight. Yes, dragons can fly. But their maneuverability is horrid. If the party is benefiting from most any sort of flight spell, they can escape the dragon's powerful attacks.

[Bears With Lasers]

Fighting the dragon in close quarters is actually a bad idea. If you do that, the dragon will full attack. If the dragon full attacks, people will die.

[Indon]

"Ah, wait. I forgot one thing. I have this friend, a fletcher. Your normal arrows won't do much 'gainst tough dragon hide, so if'n you think you'll need to resort to your bows, you might want some o' the special stuff as he makes [Arrows of Slaying, Bane Arrows]."

[Stormcrow]

Heh.

The grizzled adventurer coughs into his hand, leaving small flecks of blood behind and speaks in a bass-barritone hum "The fightin' o' Dragons is not for the weak of spirit, firepower and a set of stones the size of roc eggs is what ye' need." he thinks for a moment and then reaches under the table "Or this dragon-slaying sword I have from the old days, its quite handy"...

For those people playing at home. The sword isn't magical. He's going to skip town while they are gone. :)

[Takamari]

Might I add that the cleric, by this time should have divination, maybe commune. (don't have my books with me). It would help to know what the dragon can do. Protection from Acid is great, and then you find out that the dragon augments his breath weapon.

[Black Hand]

I'd suggest packing alot of Baking Soda. Nothing neutralizes acid better.

[Eldritch_Ent]

Heh.

..a set of stones the size of roc eggs is what ye' need.



Oh, right, you mean to throw with with the Hulking Hurler PrC? Those are indeed quite handy for dragon-smacking.

[Koga]

Step One: Summon The Tarrasque.
Step Two: ???
Step Three: Profit!

[Enzario]

Never, EVER fight a dragon that is prepared and waiting for you. This is a BAD IDEA. Dragons have all sorts of crap they can pull in advance to tip the odds in their favor.

In terms of things you can do, I'd say get it onto open ground, and make sure it can't fly (strafing = win for dragon). Mobility is KEY for a dragon, minimize it. A cavern would be even better (less tinkering required) but it might be hard to trick a dragon with 20+ intelligence into a cavern that won't let him take full use of his abilities. Don't fight in a tunnel where you can only come one at a time. Find a way to neutralize its breath weapon, since that is the most efficient form of damage it can deal vs. multiple opponents (at least make sure that a single breath will hit as few of you as possible). Don't let your fighter take all the hits, he will be dead within six three seconds if the dragon should choose to full attack him.

Save-or-sucks/die/lose are good, but probably unlikely to work due to dragons' rediculously high save modifiers.

[Bears With Lasers]

In terms of things you can do, I'd say get it onto open ground, and make sure it can't fly (strafing = win for dragon). Mobility is KEY for a dragon, minimize it. A cavern would be even better (less tinkering required) but it might be hard to trick a dragon with 20+ intelligence into a cavern that won't let him take full use of his abilities. Don't fight in a tunnel where you can only come one at a time. Find a way to neutralize its breath weapon, since that is the most efficient form of damage it can deal vs. multiple opponents (at least make sure that a single breath will hit as few of you as possible). Don't let your fighter take all the hits, he will be dead within six three seconds if the dragon should choose to full attack him.
If it's on open ground, it can fly. A big cavern... it can still fly. A smaller cavern, it's easy for it to full attack you, and you should avoid that at all costs. Take the breath weapon, it does a lot less damage.\


Save-or-sucks/die/lose are good, but probably unlikely to work due to dragons' rediculously high save modifiers.
Not true. One of your top-level spells should have about a 50% chance to beat the dragon's will save at any given CR, actually.
And if you hit it with Enervation, that's save penalties right there.

[mikeejimbo]

If you're worried about it flying, you can prepare Downdraft. I always bring that fighting dragons, as well as Dragonwise and Antidragon aura. It couldn't hurt to bring Remove fear either.

Edit: Oh yeah, and for some reason, my group has found that being inside your enemy is better than outside. Get swallowed, if you can.

Or maybe that's just my group...

[Bears With Lasers]

Get swallowed by the dragon.

Now, activate your immovable rod...

[Black Hand]

Oh yeah, and for some reason, my group has found that being inside your enemy is better than outside. Get swallowed, if you can.

I had a player once subdue the tarresque in that manner. Didn't kill it but tore it in half. Nothing gives better indigestion then a swallowed Wizard with a staff of power who then decides to break it.

[Appolo]

haha, dragons...i love 'em. definetly get the acid resistance. have the sorceror do drain spells. yadda yadda. what i havent seen people bring up much is the cleric. if you have a heal cleric, have him sit next to the sorceror. he will not do combat unless the sorceror is threatened. sling off some healing spells as needed. if he's a buff cleric, buff the fighter with str and con and protection spells. the fighter should be good as gold to run in. if the cleric is a harm cleric, he'll be the one in main melee. have the fighter draw aggro (sry) and keep the dragon off of the cleric. use your weakest spells first. you never know when you'll need a super awesome inflict spell up the road. for the rogue, invest ranks in use magic device and brings tons of scrolls. fireball, inflict, heal it doesnt matter what scrolls you briong, just make sure you're loaded with papyrus!

[ghost_warlock]

Step 1: Get the Spell Compendium.
Step 2: Learn ray of clumsiness.
Step 3: Learn other rays (ray of stupidity, ray of enfeeblement, ray of exhaustion, enervation).
(If neccessary, cast fly on the fighter)
Step 4: Kill the dragon.

BTW - stay away from Frostburn, that's just asking for DM-smiting.

[Solo]

Spend ten minutes to get acquainted with a scroll of Major Creation [Antimatter]

[Koga]

Create anti-matter?

That's all kinds of wrong...

[Gralamin]

Create anti-matter?

That's all kinds of wrong...

Perfectly legal by RAW, as long as you have a good idea of what it is.

[Norsesmithy]

Which should be something like a DC 110 knowledge (Astrophysics) check, in a pseudo medieval setting.

[Stormcrow]

Oh, right, you mean to throw with with the Hulking Hurler PrC? Those are indeed quite handy for dragon-smacking.

Ah... I was using stones there as a euphemism... for balls.
I was implying bravery?

[Eldritch_Ent]

Ah... I was using stones there as a euphemism... for balls.
I was implying bravery?

Yes, I purpousefully failed my Innuendo roll there for the purpouses of Comedy. :P

[Stormcrow]

Indeed. Ah Subtlety. How the internet wounds thee...

[redwood]

Thanks everyone. Lots of good ideas that'll help keep us from making newbie dragon hunter mistakes.
(Cleric) I especially like the idea of keeping an escape route open.
(Rog) Hmm. Immovable Rod in the dragon's stomach. I like it. I bet the DM^H^HBeschesque won't see that coming. I know just the brave fighting fool that could pull it off...
(Sor) Excuse us while we step over to that other inn with the funny name--bbboy was it--to catch up on their tales of dragon slaying.
(Ftr) Whoowee, we gonna kill us a dragon. Hack, hack. Slash, slash.

[silentknight]

Complete Arcana has the spell Energy Immunity.

[Raum]

Perfectly legal by RAW, as long as you have a good idea of what it is.No it's not. If you read the spells again you'll see you can only create matter. Various types, but still matter.

[Dausuul]

Step One: Summon The Tarrasque.
Step Two: ???
Step Three: Profit!

With all due respect to South Park, I think this progression ought to be more like:

Step One: ???
Step Two: Summon the Tarrasque.
Step Three: Profit!

Once you can summon the Tarrasque, profit is not that hard to come by. :)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Thanks everyone. Lots of good ideas that'll help keep us from making newbie dragon hunter mistakes.
(Cleric) I especially like the idea of keeping an escape route open.
(Rog) Hmm. Immovable Rod in the dragon's stomach. I like it. I bet the DM^H^HBeschesque won't see that coming. I know just the brave fighting fool that could pull it off...
(Sor) Excuse us while we step over to that other inn with the funny name--bbboy was it--to catch up on their tales of dragon slaying.
(Ftr) Whoowee, we gonna kill us a dragon. Hack, hack. Slash, slash.

You there with the pointy hat. Listen up. Your main goal is to keep that Dragon from being too mobile, and weaken him a might.

Ye use a Rod of Quickening to drop a Solid Fog on th' bastid. That'll keep him from moving around too fast an' keep him from eatin' your fighter for lunch. Make sure your fighter's got a Ring of Freedom of Movement so he can go in without having to worry about it. Right, now ye got him slowed down. Now it's time to hit him with Enervation. If ye got any way to make it nastier with metamagic, DO IT.

You, with the big sword. He drops a solid fog and hits it with Enervation. You go in and full attack the bugger. They be expensive, but bar none, the best way to hit this beast is with a Brilliant Energy weapon. Get your cleric buddy to put Greater Magic Weapon on it for more raw bonuses. Now ya don' have ta worry bout his scales, an' good luck tryin' ta MISS the blighter. So, charge in, full Power Attack. Keep hitting the thing as hard and fast as ye can. You're gonna be doin' most of the damage here.

Priesty boy. First off, before ye even get close, make sure your buddies are resistant to Acid. Then buff up. You know the drill... GMW on the big muscular boy here, Death Ward, that sort of thing.

Sneaky fellah in the corner. Yea, I saw ye. Look, if you can fiddle with magic stuff to get it to work fer ya, then boyo grab some scrolls and pretend you're a wizard. Otherwise... brew them some coffee. This thing is tailor made to laugh at your skill set. Even if ye can manage ta flank the bugger, only thing you do is put you out of range from the healer, which is a BAD place to be around this thing. Yer thing is gonna be gettin' 'em TO the dragon. Black dragons love ambushes, you're going to be on point to make sure it don't. Beg a True Sight off of someone to see through illusions. Oh, and keep on yer toes for traps, all dragons love ta use 'em, blackies in particular. Don't bother sneakin' up on him, ya just can't.

Above all, don't forget, black dragons LOVE ambushes. Be on the lookout whenever you get into his swamp. That rolling hill could just well be him.

Also don't forget that it's a caster as well. Protection from Acid is all well and good for it's breath weapon, but what happens when it drops a Fireball on yer head?

Black dragons tend to stay on the ground, trees and such that grow in swamps aren't too suited for arial maneuvers. So don't worry so much about arial assault.

[Dausuul]

Ye use a Rod of Quickening to drop a Solid Fog on th' bastid. That'll keep him from moving around too fast an' keep him from eatin' your fighter for lunch. Make sure your fighter's got a Ring of Freedom of Movement so he can go in without having to worry about it. Right, now ye got him slowed down. Now it's time to hit him with Enervation. If ye got any way to make it nastier with metamagic, DO IT.

Nit-picking, but you missed a spot here--namely, the place where you do something to let you see through your own fog. Not terribly difficult, but still an important element.


You, with the big sword. He drops a solid fog and hits it with Enervation. You go in and full attack the bugger. They be expensive, but bar none, the best way to hit this beast is with a Brilliant Energy weapon. Get your cleric buddy to put Greater Magic Weapon on it for more raw bonuses. Now ya don' have ta worry bout his scales, an' good luck tryin' ta MISS the blighter. So, charge in, full Power Attack. Keep hitting the thing as hard and fast as ye can. You're gonna be doin' most of the damage here.

Brilliant energy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#brilliantEnergy) won't do diddly-squat to a dragon. It only ignores armor and shield bonuses; it specifically does not ignore natural armor. All it does is waste +4 worth of enhancements.

Better to just soften it up with enervation and then finish it with a save-or-lose.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Brilliant energy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#brilliantEnergy) won't do diddly-squat to a dragon. It only ignores armor and shield bonuses; it specifically does not ignore natural armor. All it does is waste +4 worth of enhancements.

Better to just soften it up with enervation and then finish it with a save-or-lose.

Hrrm... hadn't used Brilliant Energy since 3.0... now it is completely worthless. Find some way to do touch-attacks. Maybe go psionic and get Deep Impact or something.

blowing it up with magic is tough due to SR. That's why you use Solid Fog, no SR and no save. Unless you want to cheat and use Ranged Shivering Touch...

[Dausuul]

Hrrm... hadn't used Brilliant Energy since 3.0... now it is completely worthless. Find some way to do touch-attacks. Maybe go psionic and get Deep Impact or something.

blowing it up with magic is tough due to SR. That's why you use Solid Fog, no SR and no save. Unless you want to cheat and use Ranged Shivering Touch...

Assay spell resistance fixes SR. Of course, your DM may take one look at assay spell resistance and say (as I did when I was DM and a player presented me with this spell) "Hell no! What were you thinking?" and smack you upside the head. In this case, Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration should do the trick. Dragon SR is actually comparatively low for their level.

And I agree on brilliant energy. If you're fighting another PC, it's great, but most of the time you'll be fighting monsters and it won't do jack.

[Jacob Orlove]

If you want to get touch attacks, you can have your Wizard buddy put Wraithstrike into a ring of spell storing.

I would advise very, very, very strongly against doing this, though. Dragons cast spells. If you use Wraithstrike, they are liable to do so as well (your DM will certainly feel justified in doing so). A dragon, full attacking with Wraithstrike and Power Attack, can easily do over 200 damage. Don't let that happen to you.

Which reminds me--the advice above about having the fighter full attack the dragon is a bad idea, because it means the dragon gets to full attack you. You can buy a Composite Longbow, have the Wizard cast GMW, and get some Dragonbane arrows, to attack at range, or spend your time guarding the spellcasters, or do hit and run (especially effective inside that Solid Fog with that Freedom of Movement ring).

[ThunderEagle]

"what ya need is ta knock it out as fast as possible. thar's a good trick that works on many things and'll last plenty long enough for yer ta kill it easily. what ya need is a spell called feeblemind that makes most things totally stupid easily. however, that'll stop it castin' spells but not from ripping yer apart. ter turn it inter a big hunk'a flesh ready ter be carved up yer need ter use this other spell, called ray o' stupidity. that'll take it down easily if yer can hit it, and if yer can't it'll kill people easy. use one o' those rods ter get tha spells off together. tha sneaky guy needs a scythe ter finish it off, and that tough lookin' guy with tha sworddoes as well. they keep carvin' it up till its finished off. that holy lookin' guy should put up some protection from acid for yer, in case it gets tha jump on yer. thars not much that can survive that, not even a dragon. if yer don't know the spells then shame on yer, they're very good on anything with a mind. get them on scrolls if yer must, but then yer can't do it without tha dragon gettin' in a chance ter attack. if yer can, power it up as high as yer can, as then it'll have a harder time resisting. only get the ray on a scroll if yer can help it though."

in other words, hit it with feeblemind then ray of stupidity, with protection from acid up beforehand. don't, whatever you do, cast feeblemind from scroll form. the DC is far too low. if you can, heighten feeblemind up to level 7. if you were a wizard, you could pay for a feeblemind spell and be able to cast it normally, but you have to live with what you have I guess. AFAIK, ray of stupidity is in the spell compendium. everything else is core.

[PlatinumJester]

Find a lawful good dragon to help you saying you will split the treasure 50:50

[Citizen Joe]

I hate to give tips to the dragon, but did you ever notice how dragon hoards always seem to have dragon slaying swords and such? That's because the primary source of income for dragons is adventurers. Adventurers bring treasure to the dragon by way of equipment used to kill the dragon. Now some smarter shapechanging dragons could come into town, hire adventurers to kill the 'dragon' and offer some 'dragon slaying' equipment to the adventurers to help. Of course, this equipment is all cursed to ensure their demise when they do try to kill it. Plus, all the deposit gold gets returned when they die too.

That being said, my advice to adventurers would be don't get overconfident. Dragons are sly and crafty, just when you think you're winning, you've stepped into its trap.