Fighter Subclass: Guardian Fighter

[Leuku]

Edits Made: Stalwart Commander has been verbosely clarified to provide stricter guidelines.
Edit2: Due to damage concerns, Offensive Defense makes the shield a Light melee weapon.


Guardian


http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100205184014/marveldatabase/images/f/f0/Steven_Rogers_%28Earth-1610%29.png
Picture From Marvel.wikia.com

Those who follow in the path of the archetypal Guardian pursue the notion that the best defense can be a good offense. Taking down your foes holds little meaning if you cannot live to see tomorrow and a tomorrow is not worth seeing if you are the only survivor. While other fighters may scoff at your lack of offensive prowess, any Guardian can take great pride in the battles they have fought and the lives they have saved. Truly there is no leader like a Guardian with the prowess to protect.

Offensive Defense
Beginning when you take this archetype at 3rd level, you gain proficiency in the shield as a Light melee weapon. It deals 1d6 bludgeoning damage. You also gain the ability to don and doff a shield with a bonus action.
Additionally, you acquire a unique ability called the Cavalcade Throw. As one of your attacks in the Attack action, you can make a thrown weapon attack with a shield or with a weapon with the thrown property you are wielding in one hand. Range 20/60. At the end of your turn, the thrown shield or weapon returns to your hand and in the case of the shield becomes automatically donned. When you gain Extra Attacks, you can expend an attack from the Attack Action to have your thrown shield or weapon ricochet and target one additional creature within 10 feet of the target prior. For each attack that you expend, you can target an additional creature.

Stalwart Commander
At 7th level, you can use an action to make a Charisma (Persuasion) or Strength (Persuasion) check contested by a creature's Charisma (Deception) check. The creature must be able to hear you, and the two of you must share a language.
If you succeed on the check and the creature is non-hostile, it becomes charmed by you and will follow immediate orders you give it. What any creature can attempt and accomplish is limited by their experience, education, and training. Creatures that can’t be charmed are immune to this effect. The order must be worded in such a manner as to make the course of action sound reasonable. Asking the creature to stab itself, throw itself onto a spear, immolate itself, or do some other obviously harmful act stops the order. Additionally, your orders cannot contradict their conscience.

For example, asking a servant to murder their king would expectedly contradict the servant's conscience. Unless the servant has prior experience in regicide, the servant will be ill-equipped Mentally and Emotionally to attempt it. So the servant will not follow such an order. This does not mean that it is impossible to order a person to take an action unusual for itself. A servant won't murder their king, but they may divulge secret information about the king, so long as doing so would not put the king nor the servant's life in danger, if that is the kind of thing the servant cares about. Fear is a feeling that could prevent a servant from speaking his piece under normal conditions; Stalwart Commander can overcome that fear.

Likewise, a greedy merchant will not be ordered to give away all of her money, as that is antithetical to her conscience. But she would be much more willing to give you information about her contacts, or show you where money can be made, even if she was more money-grubbingly hesitant before.
And an Information Broker would not divulge her contacts, as secretive information is her, and their, lifeblood, but she can inform her contacts with information you have, or tell you where you can find one of her contacts, even as she is initially distrustful of you.
And a town guardsman will not murder civilians, but will fight raiders attacking the town, even if he is at first too afraid to try.

This effect lasts for 1 minute or until the order is completed, after which the creature defaults back to their normal attitude and behavior. The creature is aware of what it is being made to do. Alternatively, you can allow a non-hostile creature to make a Charisma saving throw vs DC 12, ending the Frightened condition on a Success.
If you succeed on the check and the creature is hostile, the creature's behavior becomes restricted by your presence. The creature suffers disadvantage on its attacks against anyone but you. This effects lasts for one minute or until you are no longer within line of sight of the creature.
Creatures under any effect of Stalwart Commander cannot be the target of this ability again for the next 24 hours.

Refined Defense
By 10th level, you have learned to interpose shield and/or weapon between yourself and danger, mitigating the damage you suffer. When you are hit by a damaging attack or take damage from something that required a strength save or dexterity save, you can use your reaction to halve the damage. Alternatively, you can use your reaction to halve the damage similarly done to a creature within 5 feet of you.

Errant Charge (by /u/pithlord)
At 15th level, you transform the reckless in to the dauntless. When you take the Dodge action, you may also Dash as a bonus action. On the same turn, whenever you enter an enemy's reach, they must use their reaction to make an opportunity attack against you, if able.

Generous Vitality
Starting at 18th level, you can spend a hit die as a bonus action on your turn. Alternatively, you can have an adjacent creature benefit from your expended hit die instead of yourself.

[JNAProductions]

Stalwart Commander
At 7th level, you can use an action to make a Charisma (Persuasion) or Strength (Persuasion) check contested by a creature's Charisma (Deception) check. The creature must be able to hear you, and the two of you must share a language.
If you succeed on the check and the creature is non-hostile, it becomes charmed by you and will follow immediate orders you give it. What any creature can attempt and accomplish is limited by their experience, education, and training. This effect lasts for 1 minute or until the order is completed, after which the creature defaults back to their normal attitude and behavior. Alternatively, you can allow a non-hostile creature to make a Charisma saving throw vs DC 12, ending the Frightened condition on a Success.
If you succeed on the check and the creature is hostile, the creature's behavior becomes restricted by your presence. The creature suffers disadvantage on its attacks against anyone but you. This effects lasts for one minute or until you are no longer within line of sight of the creature.
Creatures under any effect of Stalwart Commander cannot be the target of this ability again for the next 24 hours.

This seems pretty damn powerful. "You, guard-open the gate!" "My liege, sir, free this man!" "Good shopkeep, give me your most valuable item for free." All non-hostile. All vulnerable.

Other than that, seems good.

[DracoKnight]

I like it. I agree with JNAProductions that at the moment Stalwart Commander is a little bit broken, but I also feel that lowering the DC would be a way to fix that. And also I think characters would play this as more of a no-nonsense, lawful good character who wouldn't use that ability to steal from shops.

[JNAProductions]

Yes, but this could just as easily be a Lawful Evil general. They'd steal without a second thought for "the greater good".

[DracoKnight]

Yes, but this could just as easily be a Lawful Evil general. They'd steal without a second thought for "the greater good".

Excellent point.

[Leuku]

You guys see the Waterborne Adventures Unearthed Arcana (http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/UA_Waterborne_v3.pdf), yet?

There's a Swashbuckler Rogue in there.

Stalwart Commander is a modified version of its 9th level Panache.

I weakened Panache, then added the Ordering thing to make it more focused on non-hostiles rather than hostiles, as that was my intention.

I think it's important to note that the person you command is entirely aware of what they're being told to do. So if you're making him do something he shouldn't be doing, then once that 1 minute is up he's going to be quite upset.

Inspiration for the ability is based on that scene in the 1st Avengers movie when the Chitauri have begun their assault. The police are frantically trying to make some sense of the situation, and then Captain America appears and gives them tactical orders on how to secure and protect the citizens. The police officer listening immediately questions Captain America's authority, until Captain America proceeds to beat the tar out of several Chitauri right in front of them. Having see Captain America's display of strength, the police officer proceeds to follow Captain America's orders.

Now Panache, when it was released, was immediately considered verging on OP. Does my clarification help assuage the power of Stalwart Commander?

[JNAProductions]

Not really. It's unlimited control for 60 seconds.

As written, "Kill yourself" is a perfectly valid order. Combine that with a good disguise and you are now the world's greatest assassin.

[Leuku]

Not really. It's unlimited control for 60 seconds.

As written, "Kill yourself" is a perfectly valid order. Combine that with a good disguise and you are now the world's greatest assassin.

Hmm. I suppose I should put a more explicit clause stating any order cannot be directly harmful to it, unless the target's experience, education, and training allow for it, i.e. almost no one is accustomed to trying to killing themselves, but a soldier is accustomed to fighting a battle.

[AmbientRaven]

Not really. It's unlimited control for 60 seconds.

As written, "Kill yourself" is a perfectly valid order. Combine that with a good disguise and you are now the world's greatest assassin.

JNAProductions has a point here.

I would word it like suggestion or command, where anything are extreme breaks the effect.

Otherwise I could sneak into a castle, order a servant to kill the king and their family. After that run out charm every noble there and have them legally announce me king.

They will be pissed a minute later, but I am now king.

Instead I would word it like this

At 7th level, you can use an action to make a Charisma (Persuasion) or Strength (Persuasion) check contested by a creature's Intelligence or Wisdom (Insight) check. The creature must be able to hear you, and the two of you must share a language.
If you succeed on the check and the creature is non-hostile, you may suggest a course of activity (limited to up to three sentences) and magically influence a creature you can see within range that can hear and understand you. Creatures that can’t be charmed are immune to this effect. The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the course of action sound reasonable. Asking the creature to stab itself, throw itself onto a spear, immolate itself, or do some other obviously harmful act ends the spell.
Creatures under any effect of Stalwart Commander cannot be the target of this ability again for the next 24 hours.


Changed the save to Wis or Int as it makes more sense
Changed the spell to act like suggestion, preventing a 1minute free pawn with no conditions

[Leuku]

JNAProductions has a point here.

I would word it like suggestion or command, where anything are extreme breaks the effect.

Otherwise I could sneak into a castle, order a servant to kill the king and their family. After that run out charm every noble there and have them legally announce me king.

They will be pissed a minute later, but I am now king.

Instead I would word it like this

At 7th level, you can use an action to make a Charisma (Persuasion) or Strength (Persuasion) check contested by a creature's Intelligence or Wisdom (Insight) check. The creature must be able to hear you, and the two of you must share a language.
If you succeed on the check and the creature is non-hostile, you may suggest a course of activity (limited to up to three sentences) and magically influence a creature you can see within range that can hear and understand you. Creatures that can’t be charmed are immune to this effect. The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the course of action sound reasonable. Asking the creature to stab itself, throw itself onto a spear, immolate itself, or do some other obviously harmful act ends the spell.
Creatures under any effect of Stalwart Commander cannot be the target of this ability again for the next 24 hours.



Changed the save to Wis or Int as it makes more sense
Changed the spell to act like suggestion, preventing a 1minute free pawn with no conditions



I make it a point to make it about Charisma (Deception), as it is the Clever and Deceitful who won't be swayed by the commanding presence of a guardian.

The Guardian is not tricking anybody with Stalwart Commander. Nobody is being fooled in to doing what he says. It's more of a forceful personality. And the only way to resist is to be particularly good at being sly. Those who are Lawful and Good will tend to find it difficult to resist a guardian, but the Chaotic and Evil will find it rather easy.

Like Loki laughing in the face of Captain America.

That aside, taking your recommendation in to account, how about the following:

If you succeed on the check and the creature is non-hostile, it becomes charmed by you and will follow immediate orders you give it. What any creature can attempt and accomplish is limited by their experience, education, and training. Creatures that can’t be charmed are immune to this effect. The order must be worded in such a manner as to make the course of action sound reasonable. Asking the creature to stab itself, throw itself onto a spear, immolate itself, or do some other obviously harmful act stops the order. This effect lasts for 1 minute or until the order is completed, after which the creature defaults back to their normal attitude and behavior. The creature remains aware of what it was made to do. Alternatively, you can allow a non-hostile creature to make a Charisma saving throw vs DC 12, ending the Frightened condition on a Success.

It's important to point out that this isn't a magical compulsion. There is no magic. It's a mundane compulsion.

Lastly,


Otherwise I could sneak into a castle, order a servant to kill the king and their family. After that run out charm every noble there and have them legally announce me king.

If you're trying to compel stereotypical nobles of doing anything, and the ability check you have to contest is their Charisma (Deception), I think you'll find it difficult to compel any noble to do anything xD.

[JNAProductions]

snip

That's all well and good, and I agree... But it doesn't address it being overpowered.

[Leuku]

That's all well and good, and I agree... But it doesn't address it being overpowered.

I never intended for it to have the power that you have expressed.

Has the most recent clarification hauled it back in?

[JNAProductions]

Limited by experience, education, and training.

That's not much of a limit to anyone with imagination. You really, really need some clauses about avoiding self-harm and not going too much against base nature. As written, you can still tell a dinner servant "Kill the king", and he'll do it because he's not an idiot and knows how to grab a knife and stab stab stab.

So no. Still too much.

[Leuku]

Additionally,


Otherwise I could sneak into a castle, order a servant to kill the king and their family. After that run out charm every noble there and have them legally announce me king.

Unless the servant has experience, education, and/or training in doing such a thing, the servant should not be capable of following that order.

[JNAProductions]

Additionally,



Unless the servant has experience, education, and/or training in doing such a thing, the servant should not be capable of following that order.

Experience? Fights from their five brothers. Grew up on the streets. Bar brawls.

Education/training? Two years as a militiaman. Former army member. Learned how to use a sword "just in case".

Unless you're saying you can only order people to do their jobs. That's a whole 'nother story, but not the RAW here.

[Leuku]

Limited by experience, education, and training.

That's not much of a limit to anyone with imagination. You really, really need some clauses about avoiding self-harm and not going too much against base nature. As written, you can still tell a dinner servant "Kill the king", and he'll do it because he's not an idiot and knows how to grab a knife and stab stab stab.

So no. Still too much.

Except "knowing" and actually having experience, education, or training in a thing are dramatically different things.

Most everyone knows that to use a sword you point the sharp end away from yourself and swing with your arms. But that doesn't make you any capable of fighting with a sword, and you will lack the confidence you need to do so in a stressful period, such as a battle, because you lack experience in combat.

People are generally aware of their capacity to murder, but the actual attempt of murder remains a very difficult thing, due to lack of conditioning. That's why militaries drill their soldiers so hard and so monotonously: To condition them to follow orders, no matter what the orders are. Unless you're conditioned, especially over a long period of time, you're not going to be able to shoot to kill, even if an enemy soldier is coming right at you to kill you.

Unless people are accustomed to Life and Death situations, people won't be easily compelled in to committing Life and Death actions.

And so I argue, No, a dinner servant could not be compelled to kill the king with this ability. Unless the dinner servant is accustomed to murder, the servant lacks the experience, education, and training to attempt such an act.

[JNAProductions]

But how many DMs would NOT rule it that way? How many DMs would let that happen?

You know what you intend with that ability. No one else really does. It needs more limitations.

Also, for people you could order to kill the king? Guards. Visiting generals (and their honor guard). Spies.

Order the servant to add rat poison to the king's dish, as well-easy to do, well within their experience (add salt to a dish-rat poison is just another seasoning) and gets your king just as dead.

[Leuku]

Experience? Fights from their five brothers. Grew up on the streets. Bar brawls.

Education/training? Two years as a militiaman. Former army member. Learned how to use a sword "just in case".

Unless you're saying you can only order people to do their jobs. That's a whole 'nother story, but not the RAW here.

Growing up on the streets could possibly be pretty compelling, although that would depend on the DM. Some people living on the streets have had to murder to survive, so such an individual would be capable of doing so again. But if bar brawls are the worst they've done, then killing someone on accident is probably the best they can manage.

So I suppose 2 years as a militiaman makes one a competent assassin? The important point here is competency.

You could compel a former street urchin who once had to kill for food once to try and desperately target the life of the king. But will the former street urchin be any good? And is 1 minute long enough for the attempt? And will a former street urchin be poor at Charisma (deception) to begin with? And if you managed to find someone accustomed to murder, and if that person managed to complete your kill order within 1 minute, because he is aware of everything he did, would he not out you as the instigator?

Stalwart commander isn't some magic compulsion button free of consequence and expectation of humanoid behavior. Whatever you make the target do, you have to deal with, unless you're comfortable with running away for the rest of your character's career (which some players can be). And if you're trying to make people do dirty work, then the people most capable of the dirtiest work will likely have charisma (deception) scores strong enough to beat you.

In any case, please read the most recent clarifications that explicitly stipulate against self harm.

[JNAProductions]

Are you updating the OP? Because that's what I'm going off of. If you're not and I missed a more updated version, I apologize. With that in mind:


Stalwart Commander
At 7th level, you can use an action to make a Charisma (Persuasion) or Strength (Persuasion) check contested by a creature's Charisma (Deception) check. The creature must be able to hear you, and the two of you must share a language.
If you succeed on the check and the creature is non-hostile, it becomes charmed by you and will follow immediate orders you give it. What any creature can attempt and accomplish is limited by their experience, education, and training. This effect lasts for 1 minute or until the order is completed, after which the creature defaults back to their normal attitude and behavior. Alternatively, you can allow a non-hostile creature to make a Charisma saving throw vs DC 12, ending the Frightened condition on a Success.
If you succeed on the check and the creature is hostile, the creature's behavior becomes restricted by your presence. The creature suffers disadvantage on its attacks against anyone but you. This effects lasts for one minute or until you are no longer within line of sight of the creature.
Creatures under any effect of Stalwart Commander cannot be the target of this ability again for the next 24 hours.

There is nothing in there about avoiding self harm. And more than that, you can use it as many times as you want until it succeeds. Once it succeeds, you have to wait 24 hours, but if it fails, you get to try again.

[Leuku]

But how many DMs would NOT rule it that way? How many DMs would let that happen?

You know what you intend with that ability. No one else really does. It needs more limitations.

Also, for people you could order to kill the king? Guards. Visiting generals (and their honor guard). Spies.

Order the servant to add rat poison to the king's dish, as well-easy to do, well within their experience (add salt to a dish-rat poison is just another seasoning) and gets your king just as dead.

Are Guards Accustomed To Killing Their King?

Spies, maybe, but spies should have charisma (deception) scores up the wazoo.

A servant is not unaware of the fact that adding rat poison to their king's dish is going to kill the king. Murder
is a very difficult thing for people to attempt if they lack experience in murder.

So no, it's not just another seasoning. That is ludicrous. Unless the servant is accustomed to attempting murder via poisoned food, the servant won't be capable of being compelled by that order.

It's like saying an electrician is readily capable of Electrocuting people. Sure, he has the "knowledge". But actually being able to commit the act of murder!?

Is it really beyond people's imagination that Murder is Supremely Difficult for a common person, unless that common person is accustomed to murder?

[Leuku]

Are you updating the OP? Because that's what I'm going off of. If you're not and I missed a more updated version, I apologize. With that in mind:



There is nothing in there about avoiding self harm. And more than that, you can use it as many times as you want until it succeeds. Once it succeeds, you have to wait 24 hours, but if it fails, you get to try again.

Hey. Hey. Hey.

I haven't changed anything in the OP. Not yet - otherwise I'd be editing it constantly.

The clarifications are in the actual comments.

Allow me to repeat it for you:


If you succeed on the check and the creature is non-hostile, it becomes charmed by you and will follow immediate orders you give it. What any creature can attempt and accomplish is limited by their experience, education, and training. Creatures that can’t be charmed are immune to this effect. The order must be worded in such a manner as to make the course of action sound reasonable. Asking the creature to stab itself, throw itself onto a spear, immolate itself, or do some other obviously harmful act stops the order. This effect lasts for 1 minute or until the order is completed, after which the creature defaults back to their normal attitude and behavior. The creature remains aware of what it was made to do. Alternatively, you can allow a non-hostile creature to make a Charisma saving throw vs DC 12, ending the Frightened condition on a Success.

[JNAProductions]

You're right. That's why people never play murderhobos! :P

In all seriousness, though, D&D is a game about killing people, at least a good 60% of the time. Most DMs will have killing happen.

It's just insanely subjective, and for something that powerful, you should add more serious limitations. I know what you think is reasonable, but you personally do not run every table this might get used at.

Edit: Like I said, I was going off the OP. All I said stands, minus the self-harm clause. That checks out well and good.

[Leuku]

You're right. That's why people never play murderhobos! :P

In all seriousness, though, D&D is a game about killing people, at least a good 60% of the time. Most DMs will have killing happen.

It's just insanely subjective, and for something that powerful, you should add more serious limitations. I know what you think is reasonable, but you personally do not run every table this might get used at.

Edit: Like I said, I was going off the OP. All I said stands, minus the self-harm clause. That checks out well and good.

I understand that, yeah. PCs are murderhobos.

But are NPCs?

Hrm... I was trying to go for Elegantly Concise when I first posted this rendition of the guardian. Normally I tend to be wordy, because of how much I emphasize clarification.

But instead, I suppose against my better judgment, I went off more the Unearthed Arcana Panache style, and put it down simply.

After all, what are the implications of, "The target is charmed by you. It regards you as a friendly acquaintance"?

Does that mean they'll give you all their money? Does that mean they'll have sex with you? Give you a discount on goods and services? How much of a discount? 10%? 20%? 50%? 90%?

Depends on how a DM judges "friendly acquaintance".

I was betting on DMs being the arbiter of their judgment calls on Stalwart Commander, with guidance stipulated by "Experience, Education, and Training", just as DMs are the arbiter of what "friendly acquaintance" means.

I'm going out, but when I return, I'll write a much more verbose, clarifying version of Stalwart Commander.

[JNAProductions]

With an ability that offers you NPC control, that's kinda needed. (Might consider reading the Bad DM thread for some examples of just how stupid the people behind the screen can be.)

Sorry to be on your back so hard about it, but I really do think it needs a few more restrictions to be balanced, and I really like this archetype otherwise.

[Leuku]

With an ability that offers you NPC control, that's kinda needed. (Might consider reading the Bad DM thread for some examples of just how stupid the people behind the screen can be.)

Sorry to be on your back so hard about it, but I really do think it needs a few more restrictions to be balanced, and I really like this archetype otherwise.

Of course, no apologies necessary. Sorry I went overboard on backbiting.

It is important to control for potential abuse.

Howzabout this:

Stalwart Commander
At 7th level, you can use an action to make a Charisma (Persuasion) or Strength (Persuasion) check contested by a creature's Charisma (Deception) check. The creature must be able to hear you, and the two of you must share a language.

If you succeed on the check and the creature is non-hostile, it becomes charmed by you and will follow immediate orders you give it. What any creature can attempt and accomplish is limited by their experience, education, and training. Creatures that can’t be charmed are immune to this effect. The order must be worded in such a manner as to make the course of action sound reasonable. Asking the creature to stab itself, throw itself onto a spear, immolate itself, or do some other obviously harmful act stops the order. Additionally, your orders cannot contradict their conscience.

For example, asking a servant to murder their king would expectedly contradict the servant's conscience. Unless the servant has prior experience in regicide, the servant will be ill-equipped Mentally and Emotionally to attempt it. So the servant will not follow such an order. This does not mean that it is impossible to order a person to take an action unusual for itself. A servant won't murder their king, but they may divulge secret information about the king, so long as doing so would not put the king nor the servant's life in danger, if that is the kind of thing the servant cares about. Fear is a feeling that could prevent a servant from speaking his piece under normal conditions; Stalwart Commander can overcome that fear.

Likewise, a greedy merchant will not be ordered to give away all of her money, as that is antithetical to her conscience. But she would be much more willing to give you information about her contacts, or show you where money can be made, even if she was more money-grubbingly hesitant before.

And an Information Broker would not divulge her contacts, as secretive information is her, and their, lifeblood, but she can inform her contacts with information you have, or tell you where you can find one of her contacts, even as she is initially distrustful of you.

And a town guardsman will not murder civilians, but will fight raiders attacking the town, even if he is at first too afraid to try.

This effect lasts for 1 minute or until the order is completed, after which the creature defaults back to their normal attitude and behavior. The creature is aware of what it is being made to do.

Alternatively, you can allow a non-hostile creature to make a Charisma saving throw vs DC 12, ending the Frightened condition on a Success.

If you succeed on the check and the creature is hostile, the creature's behavior becomes restricted by your presence. The creature suffers disadvantage on its attacks against anyone but you. This effects lasts for one minute or until you are no longer within line of sight of the creature.

Creatures under any effect of Stalwart Commander cannot be the target of this ability again for the next 24 hours.

[JNAProductions]

Additionally, your orders cannot contradict their conscience.

Now there's a clause! The examples are a good touch, and a good reminder to any DM that not everyone is a murderhobo, but now the RAW is no longer so powerful.

I think this thing is balanced. Pending playtesting, of course.

[Leuku]

Additionally, your orders cannot contradict their conscience.

Now there's a clause! The examples are a good touch, and a good reminder to any DM that not everyone is a murderhobo, but now the RAW is no longer so powerful.

I think this thing is balanced. Pending playtesting, of course.

Huzzah!

I will amend the OP to reflect the most recent changes.

Thank you. You have been of immeasurable assistance.

[Nod_Hero]

I have been itching to try this in a game.
Is the original post updated to the most recent version? On reddit I found v4, is that the final?