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DracoKnight
2015-06-09, 03:17 PM
Cyborn

These mechanical beings aren't quite what they appear to be. While at a first glance, they might have a lot in common with the Warforged, they have quite a different origin: this race is not a true race, as the individuals of this race used to be beings that were living, but due to a traumatic, near-death experience, their organs were transferred from their biological body into a robotic shell. This shell keeps them alive, and functions at a higher level than their original body was capable of. Trained for war, whether their training was martial or magical, this warrior race makes a most fierce enemy to combat.

Ability Score Increase. Your Dexterity score increases by 2, and your Constitution score increases by 1.
Age. You reach rehabilitation at 1 year old, and can live to be over 300 years old.
Alignment. You tend towards the chaotic, due to the painful process that turned you into a member of the Cyborn.
Size. You stand between 6' and 7' tall. Your size is medium.
Speed. Your base walking speed is 30 feet.
Darkvision. You can see in dim light as if it was bright light, and darkness as if it was dim light for 60 ft.
Protective Shell. What remains of your original body is encased in a mechanical body that grants you an AC of 13 + your Dexterity modifier. This shell takes the place of any armor you gain through your class. For the purposes of enchanting, it counts as plate armor, but does not impose disadvantage on stealth checks.
Recharge. Cyborn donít need to sleep. Instead, they recharge their bodies' magical power source, remaining semiconscious, for 4 hours a day. While recharging, you are aware of the environment around you, and may interrupt your rest to fend off an assailant. After resting in this way, you gain the same benefit that a human does from 8 hours of sleep.

Racial Feats

Four Arms.
Prerequisite: Dexterity score of 16
You can split your two arms into four arms as an action, and you gain the following benefits from this:
- You may wield four weapons as long as they only require one hand to hold them. These weapons must either be Light or Finesse.
- You may wield two weapons that require two hands to hold. Weapons you wield this way, may not have the Heavy property.
- As a bonus action you may make a number of attacks equal to the attacks you can make when you take the Attack action, to a maximum of 2. You must be wielding more than 1 weapon to gain this benefit. If you have the Two-Weapon Fighting Style it does not apply to these bonus action attacks. You may not dual-wield Special weapons like nets and lances.

Improved Protective Shell.
Prerequisite: 8th level or higher
- When calculating your AC you add half of your proficiency (rounded down) to your AC. Your AC is now = 13 + Dex + 1/2 of your proficiency bonus.

http://www.testedich.de/quiz29/picture/pic_1299872421_12.jpg

Wartex1
2015-06-09, 03:22 PM
That's actually really overpowered. Even more so at early levels.

DracoKnight
2015-06-09, 03:25 PM
That's actually really overpowered. Even more so at early levels.

How would you balance it? In general it's not too overpowered in my settings, but I'm also currently running a campaign where one of the PCs is an Aarakocra Monk.

I figured if I only gave it the one racial trait it wouldn't be too OP :P

Wartex1
2015-06-09, 03:28 PM
That one racial trait exponentially increases your damage output.

It gives you three extra attacks, which allows you to deal 4d8+12 (avg of 30) damage right off the bat at level one. That's pretty crazy damage for a 1st level character.

Ninja_Prawn
2015-06-09, 03:29 PM
I think that needs a negative trait to balance it. Quad-wielding is not something the game's 'natural' balance is built to handle. No other race gets anything close to that.

As an aside, this isn't based on the Sovani (http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/lastremnant/images/0/07/Torgal_image.jpg), is it? Man, that's a blast form the past!

DracoKnight
2015-06-09, 03:30 PM
That one racial trait exponentially increases your damage output.

It gives you three extra attacks, which allows you to deal 4d8+12 (avg of 30) damage right off the bat at level one. That's pretty crazy damage for a 1st level character.

Where did you get the +12?

As for the extra attacks it gives you, that's only 4d8 if you hit each of your attacks, which is entirely possible :P

DracoKnight
2015-06-09, 03:33 PM
I think that needs a negative trait to balance it. Quad-wielding is not something the game's 'natural' balance is built to handle. No other race gets anything close to that.

As an aside, this isn't based on the Sovani (http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/lastremnant/images/0/07/Torgal_image.jpg), is it? Man, that's a blast form the past!

Nope, I had a player who wanted to make a General Grievous type character, and since Lightsabers are already a thing in my world, I told them I would try balancing it out with the forum.

What negative trait would you give it? One thought I had was that they're a particular kind of construct, and healing magic doesn't affect them; they have to take a long rest to heal up. That would make it a high risk/high reward race.

Wartex1
2015-06-09, 03:35 PM
That's assuming 16 DEX, which gives +3 damage per hit. In addition, since this doesn't count as Two-Weapon Fighting, you add that to all of your attacks. If it does count, it's still sidestepped by fighting styles.

4d8 is still 18 damage on average, and you get 4 different attacks, which allows for a higher average damage count as well.

DracoKnight
2015-06-09, 03:39 PM
That's assuming 16 DEX, which gives +3 damage per hit. In addition, since this doesn't count as Two-Weapon Fighting, you add that to all of your attacks. If it does count, it's still sidestepped by fighting styles.

4d8 is still 18 damage on average, and you get 4 different attacks, which allows for a higher average damage count as well.

Stupid me, of course that's where the +12 came from. *facepalms*
Oh well, this is why I post my stuff here :P

So does anyone have any idea what to do to balance it out? Ninja_Prawn recommended a negative trait. What do you think of the one I proposed?

JNAProductions
2015-06-09, 03:43 PM
I think it's honestly too powerful to balance. Any penalty offsetting the massive damage boost would be large enough to render it kinda unplayable.

If I were you, I'd start from the ground up. Perhaps advantage on Climbing checks, since you have six limbs with which to brace yourself?

DracoKnight
2015-06-09, 03:49 PM
I think it's honestly too powerful to balance. Any penalty offsetting the massive damage boost would be large enough to render it kinda unplayable.

If I were you, I'd start from the ground up. Perhaps advantage on Climbing checks, since you have six limbs with which to brace yourself?

I think that there is a balance that could be found - did you see my suggestion to Ninja_Prawn about them being constructs that are unaffected by healing magic? Would that be enough to offset it, since they would have to take a long rest to heal up all the way? Instead of being able to have the party Cleric/Druid/Bard heal them? :P

What do you mean, start from the ground up?

eleazzaar
2015-06-09, 03:51 PM
Realistically a creature with four arms like that isn't going to be able to use all of them optimally at once. The arms will get in each other's way.

If you want to ballance it a Negative to ST and DEX would somewhat counterballance the extra damage.

JNAProductions
2015-06-09, 03:51 PM
I think that there is a balance that could be found - did you see my suggestion to Ninja_Prawn about them being constructs that are unaffected by healing magic? Would that be enough to offset it, since they would have to take a long rest to heal up all the way? Instead of being able to have the party Cleric/Druid/Bard heal them? :P

What do you mean, start from the ground up?

Not nearly enough of a penalty. They have quadruple the damage of most others at levels 1-4, way more if they use Hex or Hunter's Mark.

Ditch the existing ability. Redesign it with other abilities.

DracoKnight
2015-06-09, 03:54 PM
Not nearly enough of a penalty. They have quadruple the damage of most others at levels 1-4, way more if they use Hex or Hunter's Mark.

Ditch the existing ability. Redesign it with other abilities.

What else would you suggest? Potentially a racial inability to use magic?

I don't want to ditch the ability entirely. That's the reason that I'm making this race to begin with, and I'm willing to look for ways to balance the strength of that one ability with weaknesses due to others.

JNAProductions
2015-06-09, 03:57 PM
What else would you suggest? Potentially a racial inability to use magic?

That's not even a drawback. it's a restriction, but it won't make a Champion Fighter any weaker, or an Assassin Rogue.

My advice is, again, ditch the quad-attack.

DracoKnight
2015-06-09, 04:03 PM
That's not even a drawback. it's a restriction, but it won't make a Champion Fighter any weaker, or an Assassin Rogue.

My advice is, again, ditch the quad-attack.

It won't make those weaker, no.

Again, though, that's the reason I'm making this race :P It still deals significantly less damage than anyone who can Fly someone into the air and drop them. And it has the possibility of missing on every hit.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2015-06-09, 04:05 PM
Again, though, that's the reason I'm making this race :P It still deals significantly less damage than anyone who can Fly someone into the air and drop them. And it has the possibility of missing on every hit.

Doesn't make it balanced though.

A place to start might be putting a penalty (or pure Disadvantage) on those extra hits, and removing the ability bonus to damage on non-primary attacks.

JNAProductions
2015-06-09, 04:07 PM
Well there's your problem. You're not balancing it against the PHB-you're balancing it against Aarockra shenanigans.

DracoKnight
2015-06-09, 04:11 PM
Well there's your problem. You're not balancing it against the PHB-you're balancing it against Aarockra shenanigans.

And anyone who can cast Fly - and while I realize that Fly is a spell not a racial trait, the Aarakocra isn't the only one who can pull those shenanigans :P

There are ways to balance it, and I think the inability to use or be healed by magic is a step towards balance. I'm not willing to ditch the quad-attack, so suggestions other than that to balance this out would be very appreciated.

DracoKnight
2015-06-09, 04:12 PM
Doesn't make it balanced though.

A place to start might be putting a penalty (or pure Disadvantage) on those extra hits, and removing the ability bonus to damage on non-primary attacks.

That is a possibility that I am not against.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2015-06-09, 04:14 PM
There are ways to balance it, and I think the inability to use or be healed by magic is a step towards balance. I'm not willing to ditch the quad-attack, so suggestions other than that to balance this out would be very appreciated.

In order to balance it, you have to put some limiting factors on your quad-attack, such as those I suggested above. Heavy negative traits to "balance" heavy positive traits ends up with a design that is either useless or incredibly overpowered, depending on the effectiveness of the one big trick at any given moment.

Be especially careful with things like "inability to be healed:" it means that everyone else in the party is slowed down by your character, as they can't reasonably progress with you on death's door, and will be forced to delay until you're ready to go.

DracoKnight
2015-06-09, 04:16 PM
In order to balance it, you have to put some limiting factors on your quad-attack, such as those I suggested above. Heavy negative traits to "balance" heavy positive traits ends up with a design that is either useless or incredibly overpowered, depending on the effectiveness of the one big trick at any given moment.

That is a good point. And I liked the suggestion you had.

DracoKnight
2015-06-09, 04:18 PM
Be especially careful with things like "inability to be healed:" it means that everyone else in the party is slowed down by your character, as they can't reasonably progress with you on death's door, and will be forced to delay until you're ready to go.

That is a good point...

Djinn_in_Tonic
2015-06-09, 04:33 PM
Current Two Weapon Fighting allows you to, as a bonus action, make an attack with a light melee weapon. You deal damage equal to the weapon's base value, and only add your modifier if it would reduce the damage (unless you have a specific fighting style).

It might be reasonable to add the following:

Multi-Weapon Fighting: As a bonus attack you may make attacks with up to 3 light melee weapons held in your off hands (one hand per weapon). Each of these attacks is made at Disadvantage. If you hit, you deal damage equal to the weapon's base value, and only add your ability modifier if it would reduce the damage dealt. If you have the Two Weapon Fighting Style class feature, you may add your ability modifier as normal to these attacks.

This is a major gain if you only need a 10-11 to hit, and a minor gain up until you need a 15+ to hit, at which point it falls behind the original Two Weapon Fighting. As such it's probably roughly balanced with just giving out Two Weapon Fighting for free. You're also very unlikely to crit, so that's important to consider.

DracoKnight
2015-06-09, 04:51 PM
Current Two Weapon Fighting allows you to, as a bonus action, make an attack with a light melee weapon. You deal damage equal to the weapon's base value, and only add your modifier if it would reduce the damage (unless you have a specific fighting style).

It might be reasonable to add the following:

Multi-Weapon Fighting: As a bonus attack you may make attacks with up to 3 light melee weapons held in your off hands (one hand per weapon). Each of these attacks is made at Disadvantage. If you hit, you deal damage equal to the weapon's base value, and only add your ability modifier if it would reduce the damage dealt. If you have the Two Weapon Fighting Style class feature, you may add your ability modifier as normal to these attacks.

This is a major gain if you only need a 10-11 to hit, and a minor gain up until you need a 15+ to hit, at which point it falls behind the original Two Weapon Fighting. As such it's probably roughly balanced with just giving out Two Weapon Fighting for free. You're also very unlikely to crit, so that's important to consider.

I will consider this. Thank you :)

Submortimer
2015-06-09, 10:42 PM
Multi-attack wasnt my first thought when thinking about a four-armed race; my first thought was "how do they interact with two-handed weapons?"

heres how I'D see this:

Four-Armed: You have four arms coming from your torso, and can operate each of them with the same dexterity as a normal two-armed creature. This confers several benefits
- You have advantage on all climbing checks involving your arms.
- You may wield any combination of weapons and/or a shield that having 4 hands would allow (example: greatsword and shield, two polearms, 4 longswords, 2 bows/crossbows). Regardless of how many weapons you wield, you cannot gain more than one bonus attack from TWF.
- You are not restricted to light melee weapons with regards to TWF.
- As long as at least one hand it empty, you are considered to have a free hand available


It's a pretty big bonus, but not near as unbalanced as getting 4 attacks at level 1. Plus, TWO LONGBOWS. SO AWESOME.

Torched Forever
2015-06-10, 09:26 AM
Multi-Weapon fighting seems like the best idea (+3 attacks w/ disadvantage)

Analyzing it, I'm getting these numbers. (assuming 50% hit chance)

1st level Fighter
(1d8 + 3) x (0.5) 3.25
3((1d6 + 3) x (0.5*0.5)) 4.875

8.125 average damage
7.5 variant human dual wielder
8 w/ +2 AC quarterstaff shenanigans

20th level Fighter
4((1d8 + 5) x (0.5) 19
3((1d6 + 5) x (0.5*0.5) 6.375

25.375 average damage
26.25 variant human dual wielder
25.75 w/ +2 AC quarterstaff shenanigans
Multi-wielding is pretty good at first but then loses its advantage latter on.

Compared to variant human in terms of traits, you might want to change darkvision to advantage on climb or even a climb speed.
+2/+1 vs +1/+1 any
darkvision vs skill
multi vs feat

Gr7mm Bobb
2015-06-11, 10:45 AM
Multi-attack wasnt my first thought when thinking about a four-armed race; my first thought was "how do they interact with two-handed weapons?"

heres how I'D see this:

Four-Armed: You have four arms coming from your torso, and can operate each of them with the same dexterity as a normal two-armed creature. This confers several benefits
- You have advantage on all climbing checks involving your arms.
- You may wield any combination of weapons and/or a shield that having 4 hands would allow (example: greatsword and shield, two polearms, 4 longswords, 2 bows/crossbows). Regardless of how many weapons you wield, you cannot gain more than one bonus attack from TWF.
- You are not restricted to light melee weapons with regards to TWF.
- As long as at least one hand it empty, you are considered to have a free hand available


It's a pretty big bonus, but not near as unbalanced as getting 4 attacks at level 1. Plus, TWO LONGBOWS. SO AWESOME.

I do like Submortimer's suggestion:
If he wants to make general grievous themed character, I would recommend using part of the mechanical chassis of this: http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Warforged-Gr7mm_(5e_Race)
I penalized healing, I used it to offset the heighted AC that they get for being living armor. Because I gave the juggernaut's 17 ac at level 1, I made their healing even more limited by removing their ability to recover from short rests.

But you could drop the AC bonus for four arms. If you think you can handle the raw output that they are capable of I recommend this as an attack based perk:
- While you are using two-weapon fighting you may make a number of attacks with your bonus action equal to the number of attacks you can make with your attack action.
- Sprinkle some wording in to makes sure the players realize they need to be wielding more than just 2 weapons to make it work
- And if required, make it have a number of these attack bursts equal to their proficiency bonus per short or long rest.
- If the two weapon fighting style proves to be too intense, then just don't allow them to add their mod to damage for any attack beyond the 1st.
- Or limit them to being able to only wield light weapon's in their 'lesser' arms.
- They don't need a secondary stat as well, so you can just give them a +2 to one stat, or a +1 to 2 stats.

My suggestion is only balanced in the way that it scales, but this race will quickly blow many characters out of the water in raw power once the extra attack feature is picked up. As a DM I would make an NPC as a mock test and throw it at the group for an encounter, no story just mechanics. Get their feedback and go from there, You as a DM are the one that gauges the balance of your game and only you and your group truly know where the line of balance is for you specifically.

Things to use:
- 1 for 1 attack to bonus attack (to get that multi armed feel)
- +2 (+1, +1) for stats
- Maybe nerfed healing
- You have advantage on all climbing checks involving your arms.
- As long as at least one hand it empty, you are considered to have a free hand available
- can vesitile with 2 weapons

EDIT: if you want make a feat that requires multiple limbs that can attack. that way it doesn't show up too early but still overs the player a real weighted decision.

Torched Forever
2015-06-11, 09:32 PM
I do like Submortimer's suggestion

While you are using two-weapon fighting you may make a number of attacks with your bonus action equal to the number of attacks you can make with your attack action.

Things to use:
- 1 for 1 attack to bonus attack (to get that multi armed feel)
- +2 (+1, +1) for stats
- Maybe nerfed healing
- You have advantage on all climbing checks involving your arms.
- As long as at least one hand it empty, you are considered to have a free hand available
- can vesitile with 2 weapons
More numbers
1st level Fighter
(2d6 + 3) x (0.5) 5
(2d6 + 3) x (0.5) 5

10 average damage
7.5 variant human dual wielder
8 w/ +2 AC quarterstaff shenanigans

20th level Fighter
4((2d6 + 5) x (0.5)) 24
(2d6 + 5) x (0.5) 6

30 average damage
23.75 variant human dual wielder
25.75 w/ +2 AC quarterstaff shenanigans
Very Powerful
1st level Fighter
(1d6 + 3) x (0.5) 3.25
(1d6 + 3) x (0.5) 3.25

6.5 average damage
7.5 variant human dual wielder
8 w/ +2 AC quarterstaff shenanigans

20th level Fighter
4((1d8 + 5) x (0.5)) 19
4((1d8 + 5) x (0.5)) 19

38 average damage
23.75 variant human dual wielder
25.75 w/ +2 AC quarterstaff shenanigans
Scales from Decent to Crazy
Most of Gr7mm's other ideas are fine, except for the healing nerf. This is a completely new concept to 5e and creates some problems. Firstly, it makes warforged a bit more hesitant to charge into battle as they can't just heal up. Secondly, it brings up the question of if mending or similar spells could heal them better. Finally, if the warforged were designed to fight efficiently then why did their creator make a race whose injuries were so much harder to treat.

Further analysis against higher ACs (25% hit chance)
1st level Fighter
(1d8 + 3) x (0.25) 1.875
3((1d6 + 3) x (0.25*0.25)) 1.21875

3.09375 average damage
3.75 variant human dual wielder
4 w/ +2 AC quarterstaff shenanigans

20th level Fighter
4((1d8 + 5) x (0.25)) 9.5
3((1d6 + 5) x (0.25*0.25)) 1.21875

10.71875 average damage
11.875 variant human dual wielder
12.875 w/ +2 AC quarterstaff shenanigans
Sub-optimal damage for better distribution
1st level Fighter
(2d6 + 3) x (0.25) 2.5
(2d6 + 3) x (0.25) 2.5

5 average damage
3.75 variant human dual wielder
4 w/ +2 AC quarterstaff shenanigans

20th level Fighter
4((2d6 + 5) x (0.25)) 12
(2d6 + 5) x (0.25) 3

15 average damage
11.875 variant human dual wielder
12.875 w/ +2 AC quarterstaff shenanigans
Still Powerful
1st level Fighter
(1d6 + 3) x (0.25) 1.625
(1d6 + 3) x (0.25) 1.625

3.25 average damage
3.75 variant human dual wielder
4 w/ +2 AC quarterstaff shenanigans

20th level Fighter
4((1d8 + 5) x (0.25)) 9.5
4((1d8 + 5) x (0.25)) 9.5

19 average damage
11.875 variant human dual wielder
12.875 w/ +2 AC quarterstaff shenanigans
Scales from Poor to Crazy
*20th level variant human 20th level damage in my previous post should be 23.75
*As such it is a little powerful, maybe only trigger it with light weapons? It should lower it down to variant human's damage range.

Geodude6
2015-06-11, 11:09 PM
You may want to use something like this instead: (I found this as a feature for a homebrew 5e thri-keen race)

Unlike most humanoid creatures, XXX have four sets of limbs. They can wield two additional one-handed weapons, or one additional two-handed weapon. As a bonus action during their turn, they can make one additional unarmed strike or one additional attack using one of these weapons. They cannot use these extra arms to wear extra rings, due to the properties of these magical items, nor can they grapple with them or use them to wear shields, due to their reduced size.

EDIT: I also have an unrelated question: what does it mean when people put something like [PEACH] in the title of their thread?

Wartex1
2015-06-11, 11:45 PM
You may want to use something like this instead: (I found this as a feature for a homebrew 5e thri-keen race)

Unlike most humanoid creatures, XXX have four sets of limbs. They can wield two additional one-handed weapons, or one additional two-handed weapon. As a bonus action during their turn, they can make one additional unarmed strike or one additional attack using one of these weapons. They cannot use these extra arms to wear extra rings, due to the properties of these magical items, nor can they grapple with them or use them to wear shields, due to their reduced size.

EDIT: I also have an unrelated question: what does it mean when people put something like [PEACH] in the title of their thread?

It stands for Please Evaluate And Critique Honestly.

Torched Forever
2015-06-12, 08:08 AM
Unlike most humanoid creatures, XXX have four sets of limbs. They can wield two additional one-handed weapons, or one additional two-handed weapon. As a bonus action during their turn, they can make one additional unarmed strike or one additional attack using one of these weapons. They cannot use these extra arms to wear extra rings, due to the properties of these magical items, nor can they grapple with them or use them to wear shields, due to their reduced size.While I like the idea of limiting the extra weapons, I don't think this is the solution. The feature you recommended allows for dual wielding greatswords (my previous analysis has shown this to be powerful) or casting a spell and attacking with a two-handed weapon. I think that we need three features to represent the character: more attacks than normal, the result of more arms for carrying and other adventuring things, and something to reflect how difficult it would be to maneuver two sets of arms at the same time.

Gr7mm Bobb
2015-06-12, 09:28 AM
Most of Gr7mm's other ideas are fine, except for the healing nerf. This is a completely new concept to 5e and creates some problems. Firstly, it makes warforged a bit more hesitant to charge into battle as they can't just heal up. Secondly, it brings up the question of if mending or similar spells could heal them better. Finally, if the warforged were designed to fight efficiently then why did their creator make a race whose injuries were so much harder to treat.


The reason for the warforged being as hard to maintain as they are is because they were originally designed to be expendable soldiers whose only production and upkeep needed was raw materials. What's better than a war you can come home in one piece from? They are created with a level of intelligence preset to allow them to be train just as fast, if not faster, than other types of soldiers. These creatures are tough durable and the definition of a hard nut to crack. It wasn't until later they began to realize the full extent of creating a 'mature' sentient creature who was recently discovered to actually have a soul. It wasn't until way later, after the design process was deemed complete, that other races feel they deserved the same attention and respect that other races have.

I know that what I have is largely dependent on the world and its lore. But the healing nerf is what makes me feel comfortable with them having higher AC's than most other creatures.

EDIT: And yes I definitely would say that those numbers scale to crazy pretty quickly. If that level of damage is too much, then consider limiting the extra arms to light weapons and maybe even have no standard ability mod with attacks from them (regardless of fighting styles).

I think it would look like this:

Every attack landing
1st level Fighter
(1d6 + 3) x 2 = 10 per round

20th level fighter with dual wielder
(1d8 + 5) x 5 = 47.5 (4 main hand 1 off hand) The normal dual wielding fighter stops here.

add
1d6 x 3 = 10.5
Total = 58
for shortsword / handaxe

add
1d8 x 3 = 13.5
Total = 61
for battleaxe / longsword / warhammer

"Weapon attacks from this feature do not add your ability modifier to damage dealt."
With that specific text it puts a dual wielding fighter of this race 10 to 17 points ahead of the fighter of any other race. Acceptable? Maybe.
This is still powerful but not as nuts as my initial suggestion.


Other idea:

If you want to limit the extra attacks only being possible if your main hand is a light weapon the math would look like this:
20th level fighter dual wielding
(1d6 + 5) x 5 = 42.5

add extra hand swings no mod
1d6 x 3 = 10.5

53 damage total comparatively this seems to be only slightly more powerful than a standard TWF by 5.5 points of damage a round.

Or for those who are just nuts
20th level fighter All swings have modifier added
(1d6 + 5) x 8 = 68 holy cow don't do it mate, he can still action surge for 34 more!

The one I would personally use is the light weapon restriction and no mod on bonus swings beyond the first.

DracoKnight
2015-06-12, 12:25 PM
EDIT: I also have an unrelated question: what does it mean when people put something like [PEACH] in the title of their thread?

Please Evaluate And Critique Honestly

DracoKnight
2015-06-12, 01:23 PM
Here's a potential draft of the race:


Cyborn

Ability Score Increase. Your Dexterity score increases by 2, and your Constitution score increases by 1.
Age. You reach maturity at 1 year old, and can live to be over 300 years old.
Alignment. You tend towards the chaotic, due to the painful process that turned you into a member of the Cyborn.
Size. You stand between 6' and 7' tall. Your size is medium.
Speed. Your base walking speed is 30 feet.
Protective Shell. What remains of your original body is encased in a mechanical body that grants you an AC of 13 + your Dexterity modifier.



Racial Feats
Four Arms. You can split your two arms into four arms as an action, and you gain the following benefits from this:
- You may wield four weapons as long as they only require one hand to hold them.
- You may wield two weapons that require two hands to hold.
- As a bonus action you may make a number of attacks equal to the attacks you can make when you take the Attack action.

Improved Protective Shell. (prerequisite: 8th level) You may add up to half of your proficiency bonus to your AC.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2015-06-12, 02:31 PM
Incompatible Construct. Healing magic doesn't affect you. Due to this drawback you return to full health after a short or long rest, but on a long rest you must spend no less than 4 hours repairing yourself.

I feel like the bolded section basically negates this completely, and might almost turn this into an advantage on any fights where you're not likely to actually simply drop.


Four Arms. You can split your two arms into four arms as an action, and you gain the following benefits from this:
- You may wield four weapons as long as they only require one hand to hold them.
- You may wield two weapons that require two hands to hold.
- As a bonus action you may make a number of attacks equal to the attacks you can make when you take the Attack action.

The bolded section will become horrendously overpowered as the game progresses: I'm no 5e expert, but I think 2-3 bonus attacks will skew balance pretty terribly in the mid-high levels.

Torched Forever
2015-06-12, 07:43 PM
AC of 13 + your Dexterity modifier.
Healing magic doesn't affect you. Due to this drawback you return to full health after a short or long rest, but on a long rest you must spend no less than 4 hours repairing yourself.

Racial Feats
Four Arms
- You may wield four weapons as long as they only require one hand to hold them.
- You may wield two weapons that require two hands to hold.
- As a bonus action you may make a number of attacks equal to the attacks you can make when you take the Attack action.

Improved Protective Shell (prerequisite: 8th level) You may add up to half of your proficiency bonus to your AC.
If it weren't for the racial feats, I wouldn't ever play this race. The AC is good for a Dex build and would help when you are captured, but otherwise armor is better. The second feature warps the balance like crazy. No magic healing means you can't get back up during a fight, also it encourages you to take more rests which slow down the game. Considering the game is balanced at 2 short rests a day, full health is really powerful. It means you regain over twice as much hit points as the rest of your party each short rest. This feature is horrendously overpowered at early levels but quickly loses value once you get engaged in longer fights or face the risk of being one-shotted. Not to mention, if your party can't get close to you, then you're pretty much dead. For (supposedly) melee oriented class, this is not a far-fetched situation.

Four Arms is broken. You get twice the dpr and nova at the low price of a feat. Any player with this "racial feat" will outshine the other party members. At level 5, while the casters are getting their first 3rd level spells (28 damage on a failed save) and the Rouge is hitting for 3d6 on a sneak attack, this god of a fighter will hit for 40 average and 58 with a nova (assuming the attacks hit).

Improved Protective Shell is actually pretty weak. +3 AC (21 AC unarmored) is not a huge benefit at 20th level. Wait.. It gets a flat +1/2 Prof AC bonus? No limitations? Not only does this break the flavor of unarmored defense but it makes tanking really good. Reaching plate+shield ACs while dual wielding greatswords(66+ average by now) is too much.

DracoKnight
2015-06-12, 09:57 PM
Improved Protective Shell is actually pretty weak. +3 AC (21 AC unarmored) is not a huge benefit at 20th level. Wait.. It gets a flat +1/2 Prof AC bonus? No limitations? Not only does this break the flavor of unarmored defense but it makes tanking really good. Reaching plate+shield ACs while dual wielding greatswords(66+ average by now) is too much.

You add half your proficiency bonus - whatever that is. If you have a +2 Proficiency bonus, you get a +1 to AC. If you have a +6 proficiency bonus, you gain a +3 to AC.

Okay, I guess I'll remove the limitation on healing magic then. I kinda liked it though... makes playing this race high risk/high reward.

DracoKnight
2015-06-12, 10:18 PM
I feel like the bolded section basically negates this completely, and might almost turn this into an advantage on any fights where you're not likely to actually simply drop.



The bolded section will become horrendously overpowered as the game progresses: I'm no 5e expert, but I think 2-3 bonus attacks will skew balance pretty terribly in the mid-high levels.

Alrighty, I removed the limitation on healing magic.

It could potentially be a problem, but I'll have to play test it, and I'll get back to the forum. :)
(And currently the Monk gets two attacks as a bonus action.)

DracoKnight
2015-06-13, 02:52 PM
Cyborn

I updated the OP

Gr7mm Bobb
2015-06-13, 07:40 PM
Over all i like the changes that you have made here.




Racial Feats
- As a bonus action you may make a number of attacks equal to the attacks you can make when you take the Attack action.

For what is has here, it allows the character to swing one weapon twice as much by using its bonus action. I would recommend specifying that to use this feature you have be using more than one weapon.

I think that if they are splitting their arms apart to wield more weapons, they are also dividing their power. Either limit the quad wielding to light weapons or have them only add 1/2 their modifier (rounded up) to weapon strikes beyond 4. If your player has no intention of being a fighter with its 4 attacks per round + bonus action, them just chalk it up to the same power as the monk with its ability to deal out 2 normal swings and 2 flurry swings with up to 1d10 damage.

Other than that, if you are really ok dual-wielding heavy weapons then keep the second bullet as is.



Improved Protective Shell. (prerequisite: 8th level) You may add up to half of your proficiency bonus to your AC, rounding down. If you have a +2 proficiency bonus, then you gain a +1 bonus to AC. If you have a +6 proficiency bonus you gain a +3 to your AC. A +3 proficiency bonus gives you a +1 to AC. This AC does not stack. If you have a +3 proficiency bonus when you take the feat, you gain a +1 to AC, and it will rise to a +2 when you gain a +4 proficiency bonus; you do not add the +2 to the existing +1.


Suggestion for wording:
Improved protective shell
Prerequisite: 8th level or higher
- When calculating your AC you add half of your proficiency (rounded down) to your AC. Your AC is now = 13 + Dex + 1/2 Prof

Also does this races natural plating count as armor, for enchanting and class features? if so what type.

DracoKnight
2015-06-13, 08:40 PM
Over all i like the changes that you have made here.


For what is has here, it allows the character to swing one weapon twice as much by using its bonus action. I would recommend specifying that to use this feature you have be using more than one weapon.

I think that if they are splitting their arms apart to wield more weapons, they are also dividing their power. Either limit the quad wielding to light weapons or have them only add 1/2 their modifier (rounded up) to weapon strikes beyond 4. If your player has no intention of being a fighter with its 4 attacks per round + bonus action, them just chalk it up to the same power as the monk with its ability to deal out 2 normal swings and 2 flurry swings with up to 1d10 damage.

Other than that, if you are really ok dual-wielding heavy weapons then keep the second bullet as is.



Suggestion for wording:
Improved protective shell
Prerequisite: 8th level or higher
- When calculating your AC you add half of your proficiency (rounded down) to your AC. Your AC is now = 13 + Dex + 1/2 Prof

Also does this races natural plating count as armor, for enchanting and class features? if so what type.

Alright. I edited the OP to include the suggested changes.

DracoKnight
2015-06-13, 10:40 PM
Is there anything else that anyone would add/change about the Cyborn?

Gr7mm Bobb
2015-06-13, 10:54 PM
Now that i've taken a gander at your adjusted OP, it seems as though the chassis that is the race is. . . lacking. It has only the most basic things to it +1 singular racial feature.

Yes natural armor IS powerful starting off, but getting a person enchanted could be tedious.
things i would consider to add maybe 2 or 3 as traits:
- Adv against poison and resistance to poison damage (not very greivous-like though if they are going true canon)
- Darkvision
- 4 hour long rests (like the elf)
- Can attune 2 magical weapons for the price of 1 slot
- Able to take a variety of starting cybernetic / biomagic implants that can be augmented at higher levels (maybe this trait offers other basic traits)
- 35 ft movespeed
- A extra cantrip known and a first level spell that's useable 1/long rest

Just suggesting to add something that makes it feel more comfortable to slip into as a character of a non normal race.

Overall well polished for what you have and i hope you game goes great with this. You definitely presented a project that will help my group when we do race design.

DracoKnight
2015-06-13, 10:59 PM
Now that i've taken a gander at your adjusted OP, it seems as though the chassis that is the race is. . . lacking. It has only the most basic things to it +1 singular racial feature.

Yes natural armor IS powerful starting off, but getting a person enchanted could be tedious.
things i would consider to add maybe 2 or 3 as traits:
- Adv against poison and resistance to poison damage (not very greivous-like though if they are going true canon)
- Darkvision
- 4 hour long rests (like the elf)
- Can attune 2 magical weapons for the price of 1 slot
- Able to take a variety of starting cybernetic / biomagic implants that can be augmented at higher levels (maybe this trait offers other basic traits)
- 35 ft movespeed
- A extra cantrip known and a first level spell that's useable 1/long rest

Just suggesting to add something that makes it feel more comfortable to slip into as a character of a non normal race.

Overall well polished for what you have and i hope you game goes great with this. You definitely presented a project that will help my group when do race design.

I would like to thank you for your suggestions throughout the development of this race, and I'm glad that this was a useful study for you :)

DracoKnight
2015-06-13, 11:15 PM
I added the backstory of this race to the OP :)

DracoKnight
2015-06-14, 10:30 AM
Any other thoughts (from anyone), or shall I turn this over to my players?

Djinn_in_Tonic
2015-06-14, 10:45 AM
Any other thoughts (from anyone), or shall I turn this over to my players?

Have you figured out the damage values from this vs. any other melee class's estimated damage values?

DracoKnight
2015-06-14, 10:58 AM
Have you figured out the damage values from this vs. any other melee class's estimated damage values?

I've looked at some basic numbers, but it still gets outpaced by any spellcaster (even if you build it as a Fighter and take it to level 20). The average damage if you hit every time is more than a 9th level Chromatic Orb or Fireball will do, but you have to hit every time, whereas Chromatic Orb is a single attack, and Fireball is a Dex save. I feel the multiple attacks is both a benefit and a drawback: you could hit all of them, you could miss all of them. You have multiple chances to do damage, but that's not a guarantee.

Wartex1
2015-06-14, 11:10 AM
Except that a 9th level fireball uses a 9th level spell slot, which is a one-a-day thing.

DracoKnight
2015-06-14, 11:23 AM
Except that a 9th level fireball uses a 9th level spell slot, which is a one-a-day thing.

That's fair enough.

I'm going to playtest this in the upcoming days, and if anyone else wants to playtest it, feel free :)

Djinn_in_Tonic
2015-06-14, 11:47 AM
I've looked at some basic numbers, but it still gets outpaced by any spellcaster (even if you build it as a Fighter and take it to level 20). The average damage if you hit every time is more than a 9th level Chromatic Orb or Fireball will do, but you have to hit every time, whereas Chromatic Orb is a single attack, and Fireball is a Dex save. I feel the multiple attacks is both a benefit and a drawback: you could hit all of them, you could miss all of them. You have multiple chances to do damage, but that's not a guarantee.

I'm much less concerned about how it stacks up to a max-level caster using a once-a-day Area-of-Effect ability (although the fact that you deal MORE damage than that on a regular basis is potentially worrying), and more concerned with the estimated Damage per Round of, say, a 20th level Fighter without this ability. That's where we'll determine how overpowered the effect is. If we're talking >10% over or under estimated average values, I'd start being concerned. If we're hitting close to 15-20% over/under estimated values, we have a major issue.

I'm no 5e numbers expert or I'd do this myself: Any chance you could give me the estimated damage and number of attacks of both a Fighter without this race (and with a solid feat replacing this one), and a Fighter with both this race and the racial feat (with as many similar strong feats as possible)? I'd like to run some test numbers at a decent AC range to see the results we get.

Maybe a version with this feat, a version with standard fighting, and a version that uses two weapons.

DracoKnight
2015-06-14, 02:24 PM
I'm much less concerned about how it stacks up to a max-level caster using a once-a-day Area-of-Effect ability (although the fact that you deal MORE damage than that on a regular basis is potentially worrying), and more concerned with the estimated Damage per Round of, say, a 20th level Fighter without this ability. That's where we'll determine how overpowered the effect is. If we're talking >10% over or under estimated average values, I'd start being concerned. If we're hitting close to 15-20% over/under estimated values, we have a major issue.

I'm no 5e numbers expert or I'd do this myself: Any chance you could give me the estimated damage and number of attacks of both a Fighter without this race (and with a solid feat replacing this one), and a Fighter with both this race and the racial feat (with as many similar strong feats as possible)? I'd like to run some test numbers at a decent AC range to see the results we get.

Maybe a version with this feat, a version with standard fighting, and a version that uses two weapons.

Sorry... I had my numbers wrong. You'll deal (at Level 20) 50 damage per round with this, and as a spellcaster your 9th level Fireball will be at 56. (and 50 damage assumes an attack score of 20, using weapons with a d8 damage die) That's not overpowered, in my game, or in other games I'm playing in, because when we were level 3 there was a Great Weapon Fighter who dealt 50 damage to a Hydra. Without using Action Surge.

Inchoroi
2015-06-14, 08:48 PM
Sorry... I had my numbers wrong. You'll deal (at Level 20) 50 damage per round with this, and as a spellcaster your 9th level Fireball will be at 56. (and 50 damage assumes an attack score of 20, using weapons with a d8 damage die) That's not overpowered, in my game, or in other games I'm playing in, because when we were level 3 there was a Great Weapon Fighter who dealt 50 damage to a Hydra. Without using Action Surge.

That may be an exception, rather than the rule, I think.

We go with rapier, since its the highest finesse weapon.

So, that's 8d8+40 (unless I'm missing something), if we're a two-weapon fighting dex-based fighter, per round. That works out to about 76 damage, for the four-armed insanity.

Attacks (8 total, Attack + Bonus Action):
(1d8+5) x 8 = 76

A two-weapon fighting human gets: 5d8+25, or 47.5.

Attacks (5 total, Attack + Bonus Action):
(1d8+5) x 5 = 47.5

A great-weapon fighting human gets (assuming GWM): 8d6+60, or 88. (Is that right? That seems super high for a greatsword. Granted, you're at a -5 for each attack roll, but still.)

Attacks (4 total):
(2d6+5) x 4 = 48 OR (2d6+15) x 4 = 88

Now; if I'm reading it right, the feat for the Cyborn also allows you to dual wield greatswords, yes? That..becomes insane, not even counting GWM (with GWM, its even worse).

No-GWM: 16d6+40, or 96 damage.

Attacks (8 total, 4 attack + 4 bonus action attack):
(2d6+5) x 8 = 96

GWM: 16d6+120 (lol), or 176.

Attacks (8 total, 4 attack + 4 bonus action attack):
(2d6+15) x 8 = 176

So..yeah...unless I'm not reading something correctly or failing at math (distinctly possible, of course), this is really overpowered.

DracoKnight
2015-06-14, 09:10 PM
That may be an exception, rather than the rule, I think.

We go with rapier, since its the highest finesse weapon.

So, that's 8d8+40 (unless I'm missing something), if we're a two-weapon fighting dex-based fighter, per round. That works out to about 76 damage, for the four-armed insanity.

Attacks (8 total, Attack + Bonus Action):
(1d8+5) x 8 = 76

A two-weapon fighting human gets: 5d8+25, or 47.5.

Attacks (5 total, Attack + Bonus Action):
(1d8+5) x 5 = 47.5

A great-weapon fighting human gets (assuming GWM): 8d6+60, or 88. (Is that right? That seems super high for a greatsword. Granted, you're at a -5 for each attack roll, but still.)

Attacks (4 total):
(2d6+5) x 4 = 48 OR (2d6+15) x 4 = 88

Now; if I'm reading it right, the feat for the Cyborn also allows you to dual wield greatswords, yes? That..becomes insane, not even counting GWM (with GWM, its even worse).

No-GWM: 16d6+40, or 96 damage.

Attacks (8 total, 4 attack + 4 bonus action attack):
(2d6+5) x 8 = 96

GWM: 16d6+120 (lol), or 176.

Attacks (8 total, 4 attack + 4 bonus action attack):
(2d6+15) x 8 = 176

So..yeah...unless I'm not reading something correctly or failing at math (distinctly possible, of course), this is really overpowered.

It could be really overpowered, but that's why I'm gonna playtest it. Also, I was playing a 20th level fighter the other night, and I was consistently dealing 160 damage to the enemy we were fighting. I'll find my character sheet and submit it here, but maybe that's why I don't feel that the Cyborn are too overpowered. :P

Inchoroi
2015-06-14, 10:16 PM
It could be really overpowered, but that's why I'm gonna playtest it. Also, I was playing a 20th level fighter the other night, and I was consistently dealing 160 damage to the enemy we were fighting. I'll find my character sheet and submit it here, but maybe that's why I don't feel that the Cyborn are too overpowered. :P

Yeah, I'd really like to know...especially since the above calculations don't include any magic items.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2015-06-14, 11:15 PM
It could be really overpowered, but that's why I'm gonna playtest it. Also, I was playing a 20th level fighter the other night, and I was consistently dealing 160 damage to the enemy we were fighting. I'll find my character sheet and submit it here, but maybe that's why I don't feel that the Cyborn are too overpowered. :P

Looking at the numbers that have been posted, this is definitely going to be overpowered. You're looking at doubling (or almost doubling) the average damage the fighter will be able to deal for the price of a single feat. That's an absurd power boost.

Basically, however powerful the fighter you WERE playing is, this is better. Unless your 160 damage build required a specific race, you could build it with this race and feat and deal 320 damage.

DracoKnight
2015-06-15, 02:14 AM
I edited Four Arms in the OP. Is the new limitation agreeable to everyone?

It still allows it to do what I wanted it to, but it doesn't make it extremely overpowered.

DracoKnight
2015-06-15, 10:37 AM
I edited Four Arms in the OP. Is the new limitation agreeable to everyone?

It still allows it to do what I wanted it to, but it doesn't make it extremely overpowered.

Are the latest changes okay with everyone?

Djinn_in_Tonic
2015-06-15, 12:05 PM
Are the latest changes okay with everyone?

I still think it's going to end up overly powerful.

I'm not 100% sure what your Bonus Action options are as a Fighter (again, not particularly familiar with 5e), but I highly doubt they're as strong as a potential 50-66% damage increase (assuming you default to 3 or 4 attacks on an Attack Action). And that's still what we're looking at here.

You really need to balance this around the available options for any particular class. Again: you probably don't want to reliably exceed a potential 10% damage increase for any given class, unless the ability is highly limited in uses. This isn't: this is every round.

Someone more familiar with 5e will need to crunch the numbers though, preferably comparing it to another viable option with a similar build. I sadly don't know 5e well enough to know what sort of numbers we'd be looking at.

JNAProductions
2015-06-15, 12:23 PM
Yup. That's outright double damage for a Paladin, Barbarian, or any other two attack class, for the cost of only one feat.

Very over powered.

Inchoroi
2015-06-15, 02:41 PM
Its still overpowered, just not as badly. You still give this race a leg up over every other when going for melee; extra attacks are powerful, and that's why they're bound to class levels, rather than anything else.

DracoKnight
2015-06-15, 04:17 PM
Its still overpowered, just not as badly. You still give this race a leg up over every other when going for melee; extra attacks are powerful, and that's why they're bound to class levels, rather than anything else.

Yes, but now it's only 2 attacks, and it's still a feat, not a direct racial trait. How many extra attacks you get through the feat is now limited, and if you choose a class that doesn't get the Extra Attack feature there's no point to taking the Feat. There's no reason to take the feat before 6th level for Fighter, 8th level for Monk, Barbarian, Paladin, Ranger... I mean, I guess you could take the Feat and it just won't affect your bonus action attacks for a level, but still. :P

DracoKnight
2015-06-15, 04:23 PM
Okay, I am going to run with it the way it is, and if it ends up breaking my game, the forum can say "I told you so!" I feel it's balanced for my game, which tends to have a wonky power level anyways :P

Unless anyone has a really good suggestion as to how I can allow it to do what I want it to do without sacrificing what I want it to do (which is what a lot of the earliest suggestions were). I will let the forum know how OP (or not) it ends up being.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2015-06-15, 04:25 PM
Yes, but now it's only 2 attacks, and it's still a feat, not a direct racial trait. How many extra attacks you get through the feat is now limited, and if you choose a class that doesn't get the Extra Attack feature there's no point to taking the Feat. There's no reason to take the feat before 6th level for Fighter, 8th level for Monk, Barbarian, Paladin, Ranger... I mean, I guess you could take the Feat and it just won't affect your bonus action attacks for a level, but still. :P

Even at level 1 you'd get an extra attack with it, since you have one attack with an attack action already.

Regardless, it's STILL overpowered. You may have reduced it to 2 attacks and a feat requirement, and made it so it's less appealing to classes without Extra Attack, but that doesn't mean it's balanced, since no class WITH extra attack will NOT take this feat if it's available to them. You've made this the best race for any class with Extra Attack as a feature.


Okay, I am going to run with it the way it is, and if it ends up breaking my game, the forum can say "I told you so!" I feel it's balanced for my game, which tends to have a wonky power level anyways :P

Fair enough. It'll may be somewhat hard to spot though. I'd recommend keeping track of the damage everyone in the party is doing, then averaging it over the number of rounds of combat: I strongly suspect you'll find the Cyborn FAR outclassing most of the rest of the party in any non-burst situation.


Unless anyone has a really good suggestion as to how I can allow it to do what I want it to do without sacrificing what I want it to do (which is what a lot of the earliest suggestions were). I will let the forum know how OP (or not) it ends up being.

Out of curiousity, what was the complaint with my version of +extra attacks, but at Disadvantage? That one came out mathematically quite close to most other combat styles, and had the nice distinction of being quite strong against easier to hit opponents and pulling slightly less damage against incredibly tough opponents, which means the combat style is a strategic choice instead of always the best option.

DracoKnight
2015-06-15, 04:27 PM
Even at level 1 you'd get an extra attack with it, since you have one attack with an attack action already.

Regardless, it's STILL overpowered. You may have reduced it to 2 attacks and a feat requirement, and made it so it's less appealing to classes without Extra Attack, but that doesn't mean it's balanced, since no class WITH extra attack will NOT take this feat if it's available to them. You've made this the best race for any class with Extra Attack as a feature.

You can't get this feat at level 1, and *everyone* who has an offhand weapon gets a bonus action extra attack at level 1.

DracoKnight
2015-06-15, 04:28 PM
Fair enough. It'll may be somewhat hard to spot though. I'd recommend keeping track of the damage everyone in the party is doing, then averaging it over the number of rounds of combat: I strongly suspect you'll find the Cyborn FAR outclassing most of the rest of the party in any non-burst situation.

I will do that and report my findings :D

Although...with the party in my campaign it might end up being a little bit wonky - I have an Aarakocra Monk PC running around dropping people.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2015-06-15, 04:30 PM
You can't get this feat at level 1, and *everyone* who has an offhand weapon gets a bonus action extra attack at level 1.

But standard off-hand attacks without Two Weapon Fighting Style only deal base weapon damage, and are limited to off-hand weapons instead of, say, another Greatsword strike. 1d6 vs. 2d6+3 is a pretty serious gap.

Also [reposted from my previous post], out of curiosity, what was the complaint with my version of +extra attacks, but at Disadvantage? That one came out mathematically quite close to most other combat styles, and had the nice distinction of being quite strong against easier to hit opponents and pulling slightly less damage against incredibly tough opponents, which means the combat style is a strategic choice instead of always the best option. I also feel it still hit your target fantasy for multi-weapon combat.

DracoKnight
2015-06-15, 04:31 PM
Out of curiousity, what was the complaint with my version of +extra attacks, but at Disadvantage? That one came out mathematically quite close to most other combat styles, and had the nice distinction of being quite strong against easier to hit opponents and pulling slightly less damage against incredibly tough opponents, which means the combat style is a strategic choice instead of always the best option.

I have no complaint about it, and if the Cyborn ends up being too powerful, I will probably edit that in. My player didn't quite like that, and while I don't necessarily want my game broken, I do want to try to accommodate my players, but if it ends up being too OP as is, I will add disadvantage to the secondary attacks.

DracoKnight
2015-06-15, 04:32 PM
But standard off-hand attacks without Two Weapon Fighting Style only deal base weapon damage, and are limited to off-hand weapons instead of, say, another Greatsword strike. 1d6 vs. 2d6+3 is a pretty serious gap.

Without Two-weapon fighting you're still only getting modifier once with this. And with Two-Weapon fighting, I'd say you get your modifier for two weapons. And I removed the bit that allows you to dual wield great swords.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2015-06-15, 04:33 PM
I have no complaint about it, and if the Cyborn ends up being too powerful, I will probably edit that in. My player didn't quite like that, and while I don't necessarily want my game broken, I do want to try to accommodate my players, but if it ends up being too OP as is, I will add disadvantage to the secondary attacks.

Fair enough. I think the player might want too much power though: I can promise you that, mathematically, the version you're testing has at minimum a 50% higher theoretical damage output than anything without that feat. :smalltongue:

Anyway, good luck with your test!

DracoKnight
2015-06-15, 04:36 PM
Fair enough. I think the player might want too much power though: I can promise you that, mathematically, the version you're testing has at minimum a 50% higher theoretical damage output than anything without that feat. :smalltongue:

Anyway, good luck with your test!

I am fully aware of the power increase, but I'm also relieved that it's still not as much as my PC Aarakocra Monk gets off every round, since falling damage is 2d6 per every 10ft, and they have base 50 fly, and he went Monk. (which also gets the Ki point bonus action Dash) :P

Inchoroi
2015-06-15, 09:03 PM
I am fully aware of the power increase, but I'm also relieved that it's still not as much as my PC Aarakocra Monk gets off every round, since falling damage is 2d6 per every 10ft, and they have base 50 fly, and he went Monk. (which also gets the Ki point bonus action Dash) :P

Perhaps I should mention that, unless he's got a decent strength, he won't be grappling everyone and then dropping them..and it's 1d6 per 10ft fallen, also. Don't forget that he has to grapple them to pick them up, which means he has to make a Strength check against the target's Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics).

DracoKnight
2015-06-15, 09:59 PM
Perhaps I should mention that, unless he's got a decent strength, he won't be grappling everyone and then dropping them..and it's 1d6 per 10ft fallen, also. Don't forget that he has to grapple them to pick them up, which means he has to make a Strength check against the target's Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics).

I know all of that, and the PC has really good STR. And I could've sworn that I read it was 2d6 :P

Djinn_in_Tonic
2015-06-16, 12:28 AM
I know all of that, and the PC has really good STR. And I could've sworn that I read it was 2d6 :P

So he's really only able to deal 10d6 damage per round, assuming he grabs the target from immediately next to them, lifts them to 100ft with a Dash action, and drops them. Followed by another round to get back to them.

Not sure how he's dealing competitive damage, honestly. :smalltongue:

DracoKnight
2015-06-16, 01:04 AM
So he's really only able to deal 10d6 damage per round, assuming he grabs the target from immediately next to them, lifts them to 100ft with a Dash action, and drops them. Followed by another round to get back to them.

Not sure how he's dealing competitive damage, honestly. :smalltongue:

Because the Monk gets Unarmored Movement. Currently he can go 120 feet into the air when he dashes, and his fly speed is only going to get higher.

ImSAMazing
2015-06-16, 04:32 AM
Cyborn

These mechanical beings aren't quite what they appear to be. While at a first glance, they might have a lot in common with the Warforged, they have quite a different origin: this race is not a true race, as the individuals of this race used to be beings that were living, but due to a traumatic, near-death experience, their organs were transferred from their biological body into a robotic shell. This shell keeps them alive, and functions at a higher level than their original body was capable of. Trained for war, whether their training was martial or magical, this warrior race makes a most fierce enemy to combat.

Ability Score Increase. Your Dexterity score increases by 2, and your Constitution score increases by 1.
Age. You reach rehabilitation at 1 year old, and can live to be over 300 years old.
Alignment. You tend towards the chaotic, due to the painful process that turned you into a member of the Cyborn.
Size. You stand between 6' and 7' tall. Your size is medium.
Speed. Your base walking speed is 30 feet.
Darkvision. You can see in dim light as if it was bright light, and darkness as if it was dim light for 60 ft.
Protective Shell. What remains of your original body is encased in a mechanical body that grants you an AC of 13 + your Dexterity modifier. This shell takes the place of any armor you gain through your class. For the purposes of enchanting, it counts as plate armor, but does not impose disadvantage on stealth checks.
Recharge. Cyborn donít need to sleep. Instead, they recharge their bodies' magical power source, remaining semiconscious, for 4 hours a day. While recharging, you are aware of the environment around you, and may interrupt your rest to fend off an assailant. After resting in this way, you gain the same benefit that a human does from 8 hours of sleep.

Racial Feats

Four Arms.
Prerequisite: Dexterity score of 16
You can split your two arms into four arms as an action, and you gain the following benefits from this:
- You may wield four weapons as long as they only require one hand to hold them. These weapons must either be Light or Finesse.
- You may wield two weapons that require two hands to hold. Weapons you wield this way, may not have the Heavy property.
- As a bonus action you may make a number of attacks equal to the attacks you can make when you take the Attack action, to a maximum of 2. You must be wielding more than 1 weapon to gain this benefit.

Improved Protective Shell.
Prerequisite: 8th level or higher
- When calculating your AC you add half of your proficiency (rounded down) to your AC. Your AC is now = 13 + Dex + 1/2 of your proficiency bonus.

http://www.testedich.de/quiz29/picture/pic_1299872421_12.jpg
Those racial feats, do they get them automatically or can they choose them? If so, add a level requirement of lvl 12 to Four Arms. It's so OP

DracoKnight
2015-06-16, 04:34 AM
Those racial feats, do they get them automatically or can they choose them? If so, add a level requirement of lvl 12 to Four Arms. It's so OP

They have to choose them. And there's already a requirement on Four Arms - they have to have a Dex of 16. Which is automatically the highest stat requirement in the game.

DracoKnight
2015-06-16, 03:47 PM
I will let the forum know how it goes, after my next session.

DracoKnight
2015-06-18, 07:04 PM
I will let the forum know how it goes, after my next session.

And if anyone else wants to playtest it, please do. Feel free :)

JNAProductions
2015-06-18, 07:08 PM
The trick is getting a DM to agree to it. By and large, most won't.

DracoKnight
2015-06-18, 08:02 PM
The trick is getting a DM to agree to it. By and large, most won't.

Obviously a player would need a DM to agree.

EDIT OF MY ORIGINAL REQUEST: If any DMs out there would like to help me playtest the Cyborn, please feel free :D

Gr7mm Bobb
2015-06-19, 07:44 AM
The best I can do for you is let you know which multi-weapon mechanic works out the most balanced. It is a fantasy setting, so people getting multiple arms even as a standard race could be a thing. I do like your cyborn and might make it a form of my forged to fit the setting. The chassis of your race is solid, now it just goes on towards the feats to see how they will disrupt play.

I do understand that swinging multiple weapons a lot of times is really cool imagery, but the other thing i'm afraid of is th same problem that 3.x had with this kind of thing. When you are rolling multiple to-hit dice (looking at you TWF/multi attack) it really tends to slow the game down, even when you have established an efficient pattern. I also will mark that yes that is more of table courtesy tangent than an actual game mechanic issue.

DracoKnight
2015-06-19, 12:46 PM
The best I can do for you is let you know which multi-weapon mechanic works out the most balanced. It is a fantasy setting, so people getting multiple arms even as a standard race could be a thing. I do like your cyborn and might make it a form of my forged to fit the setting. The chassis of your race is solid, now it just goes on towards the feats to see how they will disrupt play.

I do understand that swinging multiple weapons a lot of times is really cool imagery, but the other thing i'm afraid of is th same problem that 3.x had with this kind of thing. When you are rolling multiple to-hit dice (looking at you TWF/multi attack) it really tends to slow the game down, even when you have established an efficient pattern. I also will mark that yes that is more of table courtesy tangent than an actual game mechanic issue.

I would thank you for that :)

It can slow the game down, but what I found works best is if you roll them all at the same time :)

Requiemforlust
2015-06-19, 06:53 PM
I playtested it last night. I will be allowing this in my game. It wasn't OP at all. It did roughly the same amount of damage as the Monk in our party. (Who by the way, is playing your Jedi Monastic Tradition, since they had to make a new character after a character death)

JNAProductions
2015-06-19, 06:56 PM
Was it tested with the feat? Without the feat, it's okay, but with the feat...

Requiemforlust
2015-06-19, 07:03 PM
Was it tested with the feat? Without the feat, it's okay, but with the feat...

We tested it with the feat - both of them actually. It's no more powerful than a Monk that uses Flurry of Blows. To be honest, once my player got over the novelty of making 4 attacks a round (playing a fighter) they said they'd actually play a monk over a fighter cyborn. Because the monk gets so many other things. And the cyborn is next to useless as a spellcaster. Good for martial classes, but gets out paced by other things. While 2 bonus action attacks looks good on paper, it didn't translate into being too overpowered.

The fighter was a Two-Weapon fighter (I ruled that he was only adding his modifier to the first two attacks) and was dealing 28 damage a round. (4d8 + 4 + 4) My party us currently 8th level).

Also, at higher levels Monk is doing 4d10 every round.

Cyborn Fighter gets (at 20th level) 6 attacks, or once between short rests 12 attacks. I don't feel that this is too over powered, especially with how crazy spells get to be damage-wise. And if the Cyborn is any class that doesn't get Extra Attack, then it's a waste of a feat. I think it's fine, especially since the rule for feats IS optional, and if the DM really doesn't want a Cyborn fighter they can put a house rule class restriction on it. A DM can do that with any race they want to.

I feel that thematically this is a pretty cool race, and they're not terribly OP. They'll shine just as well as your Halfling Rogue, or your Gnome Wizard. :)

JNAProductions
2015-06-19, 07:08 PM
Well there you go. That's actually a nerf compared to a real TWF, who gets his mod on three attacks.

3d8+12, as opposed to 4d8+8. 24.5 as opposed to 26, not even a full d8 higher.

The actual Cyborn feat gives 4d8+16, for 34 DPR. Pretty big spike.

DracoKnight
2015-06-19, 07:10 PM
Well there you go. That's actually a nerf compared to a real TWF, who gets his mod on three attacks.

3d8+12, as opposed to 4d8+8. 24.5 as opposed to 26, not even a full d8 higher.

The actual Cyborn feat gives 4d8+16, for 34 DPR. Pretty big spike.

I will add Requiemforlust's restriction into the RAW of the feat :)

Requiemforlust
2015-06-19, 07:12 PM
I will add Requiemforlust's restriction into the RAW of the feat :)

It's an easy fix :)

Requiemforlust
2015-06-19, 07:19 PM
The damage they do is out paced by a 4th level Chromatic Orb (30 Damage 6d8, or 35 damage for Draconic Sorcerer) and a lot less versatile since Chromatic Orb can be almost any elemental damage type. I would also like to point out that Cyborn aren't going to be able to hold a magic item in each hand. So, for overcoming resistance, if they miss with the arm that's holding their magic weapon (IF they have one) they're screwed as far as anything the resists non-magic damage.

JNAProductions
2015-06-19, 07:25 PM
Well yes. They should be outclassed by someone spending a high level spell slot. Spells are not at-will, weapon attacks are.

The lack of two magic weapons affects every TWF, not just the Cyborn.

Edit: Actually, it hits them less hard. They can dual-wield any weapon, two-handers included, so they're actually a bit more likely to find an appropiate magic weapon.

Requiemforlust
2015-06-19, 07:30 PM
Edit: Actually, it hits them less hard. They can dual-wield any weapon, two-handers included, so they're actually a bit more likely to find an appropiate magic weapon.

Do me a favor... can you open your PHB to page 149 (weapons)? Can you name for me 1 weapon that is two-handed and not heavy? The best they're getting is a d10 on either side of their body that way.

RAW is currently: - You may wield two weapons that require two hands to hold. Weapons you wield this way, may not have the Heavy property.

JNAProductions
2015-06-19, 07:31 PM
Missed the restriction. My bad.

But also? Lances. :P

So I retract my earlier statement. Hits them as hard as any ordianry TWF.

Requiemforlust
2015-06-19, 07:32 PM
Missed the restriction. My bad.

But also? Lances. :P

So I retract my earlier statement. Hits them as hard as any ordianry TWF.

Hey, I did too at first :)
Sorry if I was rude :P

And lances don't require two hands :P

EDIT: Never mind. I was thinking that you could wield 4 lances for 4d12 damage every round, but then I reread the restriction on using weapons 1handed. They have to be Light or Finesse. Lances are neither, so that's 2d12, which is less than they'd normally be getting, so I'm not concerned :P

JNAProductions
2015-06-19, 07:34 PM
They're one-handed if mounted.

Otherwise, two-handed. It's what leads to pteranadon mounted Halfling shenanigans.

Requiemforlust
2015-06-19, 07:37 PM
They're one-handed if mounted.

Otherwise, two-handed. It's what leads to pteranadon mounted Halfling shenanigans.

True. That is a good point. DracoKnight, you may want to fix that.

DracoKnight
2015-06-19, 07:38 PM
True. That is a good point. DracoKnight, you may want to fix that.

Gotcha. Will edit the OP.

Requiemforlust
2015-06-19, 07:45 PM
Gotcha. Will edit the OP.

With that, I think that this race is solid, and that you might finally be done balancing it.

GandalfTheWhite
2015-06-20, 12:09 PM
I've been watching this thread since you posted it, and I have to agree with Requiemforlust: I think you've got a solid race now. It's much more balance than the OP mess that it was at first. Admittedly, I really want to play the original version, but as someone who DMs more than I play, I appreciate your willingness to curb the power of the Cyborn, and even more I like that you didn't give up on what you wanted the race to do. My final comment for the moment is this: I do not allow Aarakocra into my game. Maybe at some point in the future - I would have to figure it out, and restructure my world. But the Cyborn fill a niche in my world that I was trying to stick the Warforged in, but they weren't quite fitting. I will be using this race immediately, actually, because the party's Fighter just got burned - almost to death - by an Ancient Red Dragon that they pissed off...as level 4s. (It was supposed to just wheel through the sky until the ranger shot it.) Thank you, now my player won't have to give up his character, who they were actually really attached to. But until you published the fluff for the Cyborn, there was no way I could justify letting them keep their character.

DracoKnight
2015-06-22, 02:23 PM
I've been watching this thread since you posted it, and I have to agree with Requiemforlust: I think you've got a solid race now. It's much more balance than the OP mess that it was at first. Admittedly, I really want to play the original version, but as someone who DMs more than I play, I appreciate your willingness to curb the power of the Cyborn, and even more I like that you didn't give up on what you wanted the race to do. My final comment for the moment is this: I do not allow Aarakocra into my game. Maybe at some point in the future - I would have to figure it out, and restructure my world. But the Cyborn fill a niche in my world that I was trying to stick the Warforged in, but they weren't quite fitting. I will be using this race immediately, actually, because the party's Fighter just got burned - almost to death - by an Ancient Red Dragon that they pissed off...as level 4s. (It was supposed to just wheel through the sky until the ranger shot it.) Thank you, now my player won't have to give up his character, who they were actually really attached to. But until you published the fluff for the Cyborn, there was no way I could justify letting them keep their character.

I'm so glad that this can solve your issue :)

DracoKnight
2015-06-26, 01:13 PM
Is there *anything* else I need to do?

GandalfTheWhite
2015-06-26, 02:47 PM
Is there *anything* else I need to do?

I don't think so...Anyone else got a problem with the Cyborn as is?

SterlingWren
2016-02-22, 01:57 PM
Okay, this is a fairly interesting race...it feels...kind of OP... BUT it's a good experiment in four-armed combat. I hope that when WotC finishes Psionics, they will work on the rest of Dark Sun. I'll be interested to see how they handle the Thri-Kreen compared to this.

DracoKnight
2016-02-24, 08:37 PM
Okay, this is a fairly interesting race...it feels...kind of OP... BUT it's a good experiment in four-armed combat. I hope that when WotC finishes Psionics, they will work on the rest of Dark Sun. I'll be interested to see how they handle the Thri-Kreen compared to this.

I, too, am interested to see how WotC officially handles it.