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Ponce
2007-04-25, 08:17 PM
Sorry about the title. It hurts me as much as it does you.

Monk (Original (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm))

Alignment: Any Lawful
Hit Die: d8
Class Skills: Balance, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Hide, Jump, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (religion), Listen, Move Silently, Perform, Profession, Sense Motive, Spot, Swim, and Tumble. (Unchanged)
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + int modifier) x 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + int modifier

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Flurry Of Blows|Damage|AC Bonus|Speed

1st|
+1
|
+2
|
+2
|
+2
|Bonus Feat, Flurry of Blows, Unarmed Strike|-1/-1|1d6|+1|+0ft

2nd|
+2
|
+3
|
+3
|
+3
|Bonus Feat, Evasion|+0/+0|1d6|+1|+0ft

3rd|
+3
|
+3
|
+3
|
+3
|Still Mind|+1/+1|1d6|+1|+10ft

4th|
+4
|
+4
|
+4
|
+4
|Ki Strike (magic), Slow Fall|+2/+2|1d8|+1|+10ft
5th|
+5
|
+4
|
+4
|
+4
|Purity of Body|+4/+4|1d8|+2|+10ft

6th|
+6/+1
|
+5
|
+5
|
+5
|Anatomic Strike 1/5ft|+5/+5/+0|1d8|+2|+20ft

7th|
+7/+2
|
+5
|
+5
|
+5
|Wholeness of Body|+6/+6/+1|1d8|+2|+20ft

8th|
+8/+3
|
+6
|
+6
|
+6
|Ki Strike (invigorating)|+7/+7/+2|1d10|+2|+20ft

9th|
+9/+4
|
+6
|
+6
|
+6
|Improved Evasion|+9/+9/+4|1d10|+2|+30ft

10th|
+10/+5
|
+7
|
+7
|
+7
|Ki Strike (lawful), Anatomic Strike 2/10ft|+10/+10/+5|1d10|+3|+30ft

11th|
+11/+6/+1
|
+7
|
+7
|
+7
|Diamond Body, Greater Flurry|+11/+11/+11/+6/+1|1d10|+3|+30ft

12th|
+12/+7/+2
|
+8
|
+8
|
+8
|Rapid Step|+12/+12/+12/+7/+2|2d6|+3|+40ft

13th|
+13/+8/+3
|
+8
|
+8
|
+8
|Diamond Soul|+13/+13/+13/+8/+3|2d6|+3|+40ft

14th|
+14/+9/+4
|
+9
|
+9
|
+9
|Anatomic Strike 3/15ft|+14/+14/+14/+9/+4|2d6|+3|+40ft

15th|
+15/+10/+5
|
+9
|
+9
|
+9
|Quivering Palm|+15/+15/+15/+10/+5|2d6|+4|+50ft

16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1
|
+10
|
+10
|
+10
|Ki Strike (adamantine)|+16/+16/+16/+11/+6/+1|2d8|+4|+50ft

17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2
|
+10
|
+10
|
+10
|Timeless Body, Tongue of the Sun and Moon|+17/+17/+17/+12/+7/+2|2d8|+4|+50ft

18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3
|
+11
|
+11
|
+11
|Anatomic Strike 4/20ft|+18/+18/+18/+13/+8/+3|2d8|+4|+60ft

19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4
|
+11
|
+11
|
+11
|Empty Body|+19/+19/+19/+14/+9/+4|2d8|+4|+60ft

20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5
|
+12
|
+12
|
+12
|Perfect Self, Anatomic Strike 5/25ft|+20/+20/+20/+15/+10/+5|2d10|+5|+60ft[/table]

They need help. The monk ought not to be able to stand toe to toe with a well-built fighter or barbarian, that isn't the purpose of this modification. He should be far better at flanking, however, and he ought to be able to deal with caster with greater ease.

Changes and Revisions

Hit Dice: Monks. Masters of the body. The ultimate artists in the perfection of the self. Though apparently their “rigorous training” (PHB) could only result in a flimsy d8 hit die. What? Hand them a d12, unless you feel that is a privilege only barbarians are worthy of (for some reason, I’m not here to judge). I’d like to think a lifetime of grueling training and dedication results in a tougher build than a lifetime of eating berries and making dreamcatchers for tourists (an exaggeration, but you get the idea). Removed. HD as normal.

Skills: They’re fine, plenty of class skills, and enough points per level, even with a weak intelligence due to MAD.

Base Attack Bonus: Why does a class that can do nothing but punch have 3/4s base attack bonus? WHY? It isn’t as though they can simply cast Divine Power and proceed to decimate every chaotic-aligned creature and mundane object within a 50 mile radius! What’s worse, is that a low BaB renders their Flurry of Blows ability nigh unusable for the first few levels. This is, of course, combined with the fact that Monk strength is astoundingly low for a melee class. Even if you tried to overcome some MaD through weapon finesse or intuitive attack, you’re still getting short changed in the long run, and immediately in the damage department. Change to full base attack bonus progression. This might even let your monk utilize the coveted power attack.

Saves: At least they have this going for them.

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: As normal, but add the Shortbow.

Unarmed Damage: Not that great, but as you’ll see later on, we hopefully won’t need to change this. Leave it as it is for now.

AC Bonus: Increase every value in this table by 1 (+1 AC from levels 1-4, +2 AC from level 5-9, etc). As a noncaster who can’t wear armor of any kind, monks really have no choice but to pump dexterity and wisdom for what meager AC they will provide. Even with double 18s, a character in a fullplate with 10 dexterity has the same AC, and it didn’t take them all their ability scores! The blanket AC bonus helps a bit, but I think a little boost is needed to get things rolling.

Unarmored Speed Bonus: Again, leave it alone. A base land speed of 90ft is plenty, it doesn’t need to be any higher. You might consider adjusting the spread so they get a +10ft bonus immediately, but I wouldn’t increase the final +60ft value.

Bonus Feats: The monk’s seemingly arbitrary system of bipolar feat selection leaves me puzzled. I would work it into a system of designating ‘monk bonus feats’ and allowing them to pick one at each level they normally get a bonus feat. This list would include the feats already designated as monk feats, plus other feats oriented around bodily functions and ‘perfection of the self.’ Improved Initiative, Dodge, Iron Will, Toughness, and Alertness are all good examples. These examples are not nearly exhaustive, as that would require going through ever source book ever officially released and picking feats. Use your discretion; would Jackie Chan have that feat? Weapon finesse and intuitive attack are also plausible choices for this department. (Original (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm#bonusFeat))

Unarmed Strike: The trademark. Unfortunately, as it stands, it isn’t that great. We’ll fix it – indirectly. Leave it alone for now. (Original (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm#unarmedStrike))

Evasion: Helps against those pesky evocations, though any wizard worth his beans wouldn’t hit you with that anyway. Still, its nice to have.

Still Mind: Kind of odd. +2 versus enchantment spells certainly fits the class, but what about illusions or fear? Change the bonus to apply to mind-affecting spells and effects of any kind. (Original (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm#stillMind))

Ki Strike: Nice, though its there out of total necessity. If he couldn’t overcome damage like this, what good could he possibly be? I see no way to improve this, short of making it available at earlier levels. I don’t think this is necessary, so I’ll leave it alone. (Original (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm#kiStrike))

Slow Fall: This one make my head hurt. An ability that can ALMOST replicate the effect of a level 1 spell? Pardon me, the effect of a level 1 spell that a bard can cast. Honestly. How about instead, we consider the monk to have the Extraordinary ability to replicate the Feather Fall spell on himself, constantly. He can activate or deactivate the ability as an immediate action (like the spell itself). I understand it fits the theme, but how often do characters actually plummet to their deaths? This will erase all entries of Slow Fall beyond the first one, as they are now totally unnecessary. (Original (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm#slowFall))

Purity of Body: Mundane diseases aren’t often used, so this is more of a fluff. It’s a nice fluff though, if you want your goodie monk to help out around the leper colony. Lets combine Diamond Body’s poison immunity with Purity of Body, and move it under this ability name. (Original (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm#purityofBody))

Wholeness of Body: An interesting concept, but at 2 hit points/level/day, it isn’t terribly useful: it won’t even amount to one full healing from 0. Even the paladin laughs at this one. Lets change it around a bit. The monk is still limited to using it on himself, but he can heal a total number of points per day equal to his class level times his wisdom modifier. It takes a bit from the Paladin, but this is inherent in the special ability itself. (Original (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm#wholenessofBody))

Improved Evasion: Also nice to have. Monsters and villains alike enjoy throwing fireballs and other such effects, though they could be doing better things. Definitely fits the theme.

Diamond Body: This is empty, since its poison immunity feature has been moved to Purity of Body. Diamond Body now grants immunity to ability damage (not ability drain). (Original (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm#diamondBody))

Greater Flurry: The extra attack gained at 11th level has been moved to 13th level to accommodate the extra attack gained due to the new, perfect BaB. (Original (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm#greaterFlurry))

Abundant Step: A clever ability, but at one use a day, it isn’t exactly “abundant,” now, is it? Lets leave it at once per day, but make it an immediate action, and rename it to something like “Rapid Step.” An immediate action? Blasphemy, you say! I think not. This ought to help overcome rapid-fire spell combos from wizards in particular. It is very nice to start the battle right where you want to be. (Original (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm#abundantStep))

Diamond Soul: Now we’re talking. One of the monk’s better abilities, mainly because scaling SR is hard to come by otherwise, barring high LA races. (Original (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm#diamondSoul))

Quivering Palm: A dandy little ability, but… once per week? At 2-3 encounters per day, this isn’t exactly going to tip the scales. Any decent BBEG will reliably be immune to death effects, so it won’t break the campaign if they have this ability handy. Change its usage to once per day. (Original (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm#quiveringPalm))

Timeless Body: Essentially lets you gain an extra point in wisdom by advancing to the Middle Age category. It is otherwise fluff, so no changes here. (Original (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm#monkTimelessBody))

Tongue of the Sun and Moon: More fluff, really. Not overly useful either, as the monk will probably dump charisma to overcome his MAD. (Original (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm#tongueoftheSunandMoon))

Empty Body: Useful, particularly to get past armor and through otherwise impassible barriers. Definitely a keeper. (Original (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm#emptyBody))

Perfect Self: Essentially turns the monk into a Native Outsider. While the SRD does not explicitly state this, let’s just rule that this is what the feature does. It also grants damage reduction 10/magic. Utterly useless, of course. How about damage reduction 10/chaotic? Much better! I should also note that Monks probably shouldn't gain the Outsider proficiencies with weapons and armor. Other than the damage reduction, all this ought to do is grant Darkvision (60ft) if the Monk doesn't already have it. (Original (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm#perfectSelf))

Additions and Removal

Ki Strike (axiomatic): This added ability at level 8 grants the Monk extra emphasis in his unarmed strikes. Any unarmed strike a Monk makes that would deal damage to a chaotic-aligned creature deals an extra amount of damage equal to his Wisdom Modifier. This ability has no effect on nonchaotic creatures. Removed.

Ki Strike (invigorating): Through the use of Ki, the Monk can enhance the force of his unarmed attacks. He may use his wisdom modifier in place of his strength modifier for any damage roll dealt by his unarmed strikes.

Slow Fall: Entries from 30ft to 90ft are removed. The first Slow Fall entry should just be referred to as Slow Fall, as opposed to Slow Fall (20ft).

Sneak Attack: It just works. A class designed to flank and deliver multiple attacks in a round: it’s just meant to be, don’t fight it. Aren’t one of the underlying premises of martial arts the ability to strike or subdue the opponent with minimal effort? This is done not just by striking them, but by striking them correctly, in the proper critical points. That’s all the fluff I need. Give them 1d6 sneak attack damage (as the rogue ability of the same name) at levels 6, 10, 14, and 18, for a total of 4d6. Lets give it a fancy name to reflect on the monk's use of pressure points and critical areas. How about Exploitation? This extra damage is also gains the benefit of the Monk's Ki Strike ability.

Anatomic Strike: Starting at level 6, the Monk may attempt Anatomic strikes as part of a full attack or as a standard action. It cannot be used in conjunction with Flurry of Blows. For this attack to be effective, the target must have a discernible anatomy; as well, any target that would be immune to sneak attacks is also immune to Anatomic Strike.

An Anatomic strike begins as a regular attack, albeit at a -4 penalty. If it hits, roll damage as normal, but do not apply the damage to the target. Instead, the target must make a fortitude save versus the damage dealt, or suffer one of the following ailments (Monk's choice): 1 point of strength damage, 1 point of dexterity damage, reduction in one of their base speeds by 5 feet. Treat a reduction in base speed by 5ft as 1 point of regular ability score damage in all respects related to recovery.

The ability score damage and base speed damage dealt by Anatomic Strike increases by 1 and 5ft, respectively, every 4 levels after 6th and again at level 20 to a maximum of 5/25ft damage at level 20.

Notes
I'm largely concerned about the fact that the current setup gains 2 extra attacks on a single level (11). Your thoughts on this? Should the greater flurry ability be postponed until, say, level 13? Further, should the monk's saves be less than perfect? Perhaps poor fort? Any criticisms are welcome.

jindra34
2007-04-25, 08:25 PM
Aside from the d change sounds good.

1dominator
2007-04-25, 08:36 PM
Sounds nice, looks like this is going in my campaign!
-Dom

Falconsflight
2007-04-25, 08:47 PM
Sneak attack Idea: It's okay, I don't particularly like it, but it does make sense... I guess. If you want to call it something call it "Pressure Points." Jab the right pressure point and BAM! pain. So that could work.

I have a couple of good things you can do for Ki Strike and MAD: Replace Strength with Wisdom. You can add your wisdom bonus to damage and attribute the bonus because it's part of "Ki Strike"

As for Feats. There are some non Core ones that work pretty well. Fiery Fists give your fists an extra +1d6 for a use of your stunning fist ability. I forgot what it was called, but it's like Ki energy or energy ball ro something. It's a ranged touch attack that sends a ball of force at your opponent 3d6+ wisdom damage. It helps eliminate that pesky range problem.

There's a neat ability I thought up for a different monk character, not sure if it'll fit the fluff for the class. But it's called "Dragon Punch" You give the Monk a bonus to an attack equal to twice his wisdom modifier. He can use it 1/day/half his monk level. Put it at around 10-15 level.
IF you put it at 10. A monk with 18 Wis at level 10 can, for 5 times a day, add +8 to any attack he pulls off.
Looking at it again, it looks a bit overpowered, but my build had a weaker unarmed strike ability, so it worked for it. You can take it or fix it and add it in if you want.

Ponce
2007-04-25, 09:55 PM
Aside from the d change sounds good.

The d change? I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean.


I have a couple of good things you can do for Ki Strike and MAD: Replace Strength with Wisdom. You can add your wisdom bonus to damage and attribute the bonus because it's part of "Ki Strike"

I like the idea, but it seems a little powerful, and doesn't make much sense to work against everyone, given what Ki Strike does. Hmm. What about adding his wisdom modifier to damage versus chaotic creatures? We can call it "Ki Strike (axiomatic)." It can replace the Bonus Feat I've slotted in at level 8. This ought to avoid 'dipping' into the class.

As far as bonus feats go, any feat that requires a Monk-unique class ability would certainly qualify. As I said, Monkish general feats are also eligible. I've heard of the feats you mention; they are excellent choices.

No one finds the two extra attacks at level 11 unsettling?

jindra34
2007-04-25, 09:57 PM
The d change? I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean.

The hit die change...

Falconsflight
2007-04-25, 10:05 PM
Well at Max BAB like you've given it. Yeah, it does kind of become powerful. I'm guessing that's why they didn't give a Monk good BAB. It sucks to begin with, but at later levels you gain enough attacks with no minus to TWF(Essentially)

Why would adding Wisdom to the ability become too powerful. I said Replace strength. that way we less the MAD, and just knock it down to two abilities. Dex and Wisdom. Making everything else secondary. (Admittadly it's not single, but It's close enough.) This also helps small monks overcome their str hit and their low hit die. As well as medium characters not having to worry about needing a big strength score. All the abilities in this class come from Dexterity and Wisdom, why should damage be different?

Roderick_BR
2007-04-25, 10:27 PM
Hmm... good BAB, Agreed. I think the hit dice could stay at d8. They are like rangers, quick and light armored, not meat shields like the fighter and barbarian.
For the flurry of blows, you could make it something like the TWF tree, but only for unnarmed strikes/monk weapons, starting with the -2, and eventually reducing the penalty to -1 and then -0, as 3.5 already does.

Level 1. Flurry of blows: 1 additional attack at max BAB. All attacks that round gains a -2
Level 6. Improved Flurry of blows: 1 extra attack at max BAB, and one additional attack at -5. All attacks that round gains a -2
Level 11. Greater Flurry of blows: 1 extra attack at max BAB, and one additional attack at -5, and one additional attack at -10. All attacks that round gains a -1
Level 16. Improved Flurry of blows: 1 extra attack at max BAB, and one additional attack at -5. Attacks gains no extra penalties.
Add something like Unarmed Block, to give Shield bonuses, like Two Weapon Defense does. Could be a feat that monks can gain. There is already some good Charge/Leap feats, so no need for feats that gives extra attacks while moving.
I guess power attack can be used with any unarmed attack, since any attack is considered either light or one handed when picking benefits, so no need to worry with that too.

About the quivering palm, why not allow it 1/day? As you said, the people you'd really like to use it upon will probably be immune.

Finally, I don't know. Sneak attacks doesn't really fit with him. The ninja's skirmish ability, from Complete Warrior(or Adventurer, I don't remember) is already a stretch.

Other than that, I like most of your suggestions.

Falconsflight
2007-04-25, 10:47 PM
Okay, the whole two weapon Fighting idea for Flurry of blows is stupid. It's supposed ot be stronger than TWF. It's a class ability. Not a feat. There is a difference. It was made to be stronger.

Yeah, The Sneak attack just doesn't sit well with me really. It doens't fit fluff and... well it just doens't feel right. It just makes it seem like your a sneaky person instead of a man whos fighting as a form of self defence/way to enlightenment. I'm sure being sneaky isn't for that.

Also, I would perfer the 1/day thing. I hate things that are weeks or anything longer than a day. It makes it hard to keep track of and it makes it very, very useless. I like the 1-3/day idea.

Ponce
2007-04-25, 11:07 PM
The hit die change...

For balance or conceptual reasons? I'm a little confused that this change isn't being liked. I'll be changing it soon, if the consensus is still to go back to d8s, but I really do think a lifetime of being used as a punching bag by high level Monks would result in a better hit die.


Why would adding Wisdom to the ability become too powerful. I said Replace strength. that way we less the MAD, and just knock it down to two abilities. Dex and Wisdom. Making everything else secondary. (Admittadly it's not single, but It's close enough.) This also helps small monks overcome their str hit and their low hit die. As well as medium characters not having to worry about needing a big strength score. All the abilities in this class come from Dexterity and Wisdom, why should damage be different?I'm mainly concerned that someone would take the class just for this, then move on to something else. I had hoped the MAD would be overcome by the extra damage dice granted by their own Sneak Attack, like a TWF Rogue.

Think of the extra damage dice more along the lines of the Duelist Precise Strike ability. The catch being you can't exactly be that precise when someone is threatening to lop your exposed arm off with a sword. This is how I interpret it, I should have probably been clearer about this. Still no takers?

I'm thinking you two are right about the 1/day thing. Looking back, 3 uses per week was a rather silly way to go about it.

Falconsflight
2007-04-25, 11:36 PM
Well first, it's not exactly a dip. It's 4 levels before they recieve the bonus. But you could also just pump it up to the 8th level one, and it would still work, it would just be annoying to have to wait till 8th level before you can do some real damage. 1d10 is okay. 1d10+8 is better.

I mean, lets look at the base classes of who would want to jump in for four levels? It's not that good of an ability. I can only see, reasonably, the Paladin diving into this level for this. Monk and Paladin kind of work together. (THere is even a feat for the combo) So why not?

Why not the high HD? Well, the big thing is that these aren't Martial Artists. These are Monks. It is slightly different. A martial Artist is like Jackie Chan. He can beat people up with his fists and all that with Judo and all those fighting styles. A Monk is more "I'm trying to find enlightenment. THe only way to acheive that is to be in sound mind and body." There is actually very little sparring, and none of it is competitive enough to beat someone into a higher hit points.

Also, lets look at the stats.
We got a Monk who is supposed to have high ranks in tumble. Good, you can avoid all those pesky AoO's. So far, the major input of damage is gone. Now, Lets say we got A 32 point buy going on. You have 2 16's, 2 12's and 2 10's. So far you have 17 AC at level one. Now you have one advantage over every other fighting class. Bracers of Armor works for you. (Other classes pay 1000 gp for +8 AC. You pay 25. But now you have +8+3+3+3. They only have +8+1 and have to spring for natural armor bonuses or Ring of Protections. You get the nice combo of Dex, Armor bonus, and Wisdom without losing any. Plus you increase your main stats and boom, you raise even higher in AC. So at later levels, you already have a Higher AC than any other fighting class. And you know how the thing goes. a higher AC, lower HP. Higher HP, lower AC. You need one weakness. Can't have both.

So Far, from what we can tell about the class is it's main points are Speed. You have more attacks, more speed, more AC, more tumble. You can get around the battle feild without being touched and attack a lot. You deal less damage than a figther, but you attack so much more often.

See, My big problem with the monk is that by level 6 or 7, you have pretty much everything good that the class will offer. Sure some extra abilities and such. (Exlcuding Speed and unarmed damage.) But the abilities aren't exciting enough for you to go. "Well, Look what I get at level 20!"

I mean, lets look at the other classes
Barbarian: Mighty rage. Da,age reduction 5/-, Tireless Rage. All good reasons to stay in.
Bard: Spells and Mass suggestion(Well, there would be more... but It's a bard. we can fix it later.)
Cleric: 9th level divine spells. Max amount of Domain spells.(Spellcasters don't really have that good of a reason because most often there is a PRC that just stacks it on)
Druid: Wild shape into a huge elemental, ninth level spells.
Fighter don'esn't really have a wanting to continue thing
Paladin: High elvel spells, Smite Evil, Remove Disease.
Ranger: 5th favored enemy, spells, hide in plain sight.
Rogie: special abilities, Sneak attack, Trap sense. Skill points.

So far, Monk is kind of sitting down with the Bard and the Fighter.
Monk: Woot... we can teleport ONCE per day and we are outsiders... woo?

What we need for a Monk is somethign for someone to strive for. A "I want to get this cool ability at level 20!"

Also on another note: I think Quivering Palm should, if the opponent succeeds, make him fatigued, or shaken or something like that. Kind of make it a Die or Suck ability.

Ponce
2007-04-26, 12:11 AM
Ok. I'll cut back on the HD.

I'm wary of making a class that puts Wisdom to attack, AC, damage, and all of its special abilities. I realize that we're only one step away, but damage is more important than the others, I think. The class does have a lot of MAD, but I don't know if cutting strength out entirely is wise.

With regard to a level 20 carrot, I had changed the outsider ability to grant damage reduction 10/chaotic. A nice treat, I think. If we wanted to let the monk really flip out, we could drop the DR and include this little ditty:

Hurricane of Fists
At level 20, a Monk may use his unarmed strike as a reach weapon that can also be used to threaten adjacent squares (like a spiked chain). In order to make an attack at this greater range, the monk must succeed on a Tumble Check (DC 30). Failure means the attack is forfeit.

Lord Iames Osari
2007-04-26, 12:27 AM
You people might be interested in my own monk redux; read the latest version here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2276450&postcount=33).

Ponce
2007-04-26, 12:40 AM
The Ki Blast feat (from PHB II) got me thinking. How about this for a feat?

Intervening Ki Blast
Requirements: Ki Blast, Dex 18, Wis 18
Benefit: Once per day, the Monk may create and throw Ki Blast as an immediate action. Doing so forfeits his next turn. If the resulting Ki Blast would interrupt a spell in progress, the Concentration DC to maintain the spell is equal to 1.5 times the damage dealt.

Might help if a wizard is casting one of those pesky Time Stops.

Falconsflight
2007-04-26, 12:44 AM
The thing is Wisdom makes sense. why would you gain more damage because of your dexterity?

But anyway, I don't htink we should toss the Perfect self. I like the change in the DR thing. It makes sense and works well. We should stay true to the class. The whole point is to pull a buddha- Meditate long enough to become someone not of this world. The only difference is that you can kick someones butt. But that's not why you are training. You can't be in tune if your mind and body are not aligned. A sharp mind and a soft body doesn't work. Remember, that's why you are a monk. You want just a kung fu guy, go find a martial artist or something. Go into Drunken Master.

But we also want to stay true to the mechanics of the class. In which you hit a lot at low damage.


How about something like Whirlwind attack?

At level 17, a Monk Gains the "Time Stop" ability. A monk has become so fast and in tune with the world that he can slow down time. While using this ability, a monk must go to each opponent and make an attack at his highest attack bonus. You must stop after you have hit each foe, or until you have moved your speed. This is a full round action that can only be used once per day.
(I think I wrote that wrong. But it's whirlwind where you can walk around to each opponent, instead of having them surround you.) You hit a lot, but at low damage. No full attacks and you can end up in the middle or on the other side, away from freinds. Since you have to go to each opponent.

Or Maybe a blur effect.

At level 17, a Monk gains the displacement ability. A monk can become so in tune with the world that he puts himself in between the two worlds. Part Etheral part not. there is a 50% miss chance on all attacks against you. You cannot perform any acts that an etheral could, but neither could you really affect the world around you. All his attacks have a 20% miss chance. You also have a 20% chance of dropping items in your hands. It's a standard action to put yourself into this state. If you are ever damaged, you must make a Concentration check equal to the damage given to stay within your state. If you fail you are abruptly tossed back into the world and you are dazed during your next round. You can use this ability the amount of times equal to half your class level.

At the higher levels you are looking for something that combines "I'm hard to hit while I attack often" with "I'm becoming a being of a different state. I'm becoming enlightened."


Edit: Spell Resistance of Monk level x2? Are you insane? 40 SR at level 20? A wizard has to roll a natural twenty to affect a level twenty monk.

Ponce
2007-04-26, 01:27 AM
The thing is Wisdom makes sense. why would you gain more damage because of your dexterity?

The extra damage die are not dexterity dependent. I'm beginning to think that any source of extra damage ought to be cut out altogether. Instead, what say we make him threatening in a different way?

Anatomic Strike: Starting at level 6, the Monk may attempt Anatomic strikes as part of a full attack or as a standard action. It cannot be used in conjunction with Flurry of Blows. For this attack to be effective, the target must have a discernible anatomy; as well, any target that would be immune to sneak attacks is also immune to Anatomic Strike. An Anatomic strike begins as a regular attack, albeit at a -4 penalty. If it hits, roll damage as normal, but do not apply the damage to the target. Instead, the target must make a fortitude save versus the damage dealt, or suffer one of the following ailments (Monk's choice): 1 point of strength damage, 1 point of dexterity damage, reduction in one of their base speeds by 5 feet. Treat a reduction in base speed by 5ft as 1 point of regular ability score damage in all respects related to recovery.

The ability score damage dealt by Anatomic Strike increases by 1 every 4 levels after 6th to a maximum of 5 damage at level 20.

This better represents what I was going at with the Exploitation ability. To strike in such a way as to incapacitate your opponent beyond normal bludgeoning damage.


But anyway, I don't htink we should toss the Perfect self. I like the change in the DR thing. It makes sense and works well. We should stay true to the class. The whole point is to pull a buddha- Meditate long enough to become someone not of this world. The only difference is that you can kick someones butt. But that's not why you are training. You can't be in tune if your mind and body are not aligned. A sharp mind and a soft body doesn't work. Remember, that's why you are a monk. You want just a kung fu guy, go find a martial artist or something. Go into Drunken Master.

But we also want to stay true to the mechanics of the class. In which you hit a lot at low damage.

Agreed, I think a very distinctive Monk taste should be achieved.

Your monk Whirlwind Attack: Interesting, but what does it accomplish? Wouldn't the Monk accomplish more by flanking whoever the fighter is hacking away at? At level 20, this monk gets 6 attacks, most encounters won't involve more enemies than that. You could certainly make short work of a small city, though...

Your Blur Effect: This one is also interesting, but don't you think it is represented in the Empty Body ability? Can you give me an example of how this would be used in a way Empty Body can't replicate?

What if the Monk can add wisdom to damage as the level 20 ability?

A fly speed, perhaps?

Falconsflight
2007-04-26, 03:22 AM
The extra damage die are not dexterity dependent. I'm beginning to think that any source of extra damage ought to be cut out altogether. Instead, what say we make him threatening in a different way?

I wasn't thinking Extra damage die. I was just thinking extra damage. +5 wisdom modifier means +5 damage with attacks. You gain this ability at 4th level. Use Wisdom instead of STrength for extra damage dealt.


Anatomic Strike: Starting at level 6, the Monk may attempt Anatomic strikes as part of a full attack or as a standard action. It cannot be used in conjunction with Flurry of Blows. For this attack to be effective, the target must have a discernible anatomy; as well, any target that would be immune to sneak attacks is also immune to Anatomic Strike. An Anatomic strike begins as a regular attack, albeit at a -4 penalty. If it hits, roll damage as normal, but do not apply the damage to the target. Instead, the target must make a fortitude save versus the damage dealt, or suffer one of the following ailments (Monk's choice): 1 point of strength damage, 1 point of dexterity damage, reduction in one of their base speeds by 5 feet. Treat a reduction in base speed by 5ft as 1 point of regular ability score damage in all respects related to recovery.

The ability score damage dealt by Anatomic Strike increases by 1 every 4 levels after 6th to a maximum of 5 damage at level 20.

This better represents what I was going at with the Exploitation ability. To strike in such a way as to incapacitate your opponent beyond normal bludgeoning damage.

I actually like it. You can knock out a flyer that got too close. (-25 fly speed at level 20) Yeah. It makes sense.




Agreed, I think a very distinctive Monk taste should be achieved.

Your monk Whirlwind Attack: Interesting, but what does it accomplish? Wouldn't the Monk accomplish more by flanking whoever the fighter is hacking away at? At level 20, this monk gets 6 attacks, most encounters won't involve more enemies than that. You could certainly make short work of a small city, though...

Your Blur Effect: This one is also interesting, but don't you think it is represented in the Empty Body ability? Can you give me an example of how this would be used in a way Empty Body can't replicate?

What if the Monk can add wisdom to damage as the level 20 ability?

A fly speed, perhaps?


Yeah, I didn't think it through really. I was thinking it could be used in times when you need that extra few moments or something. *shrugs* But Your right, it's not that good

As for the second one. THe ability puts you in between the two worlds. Actually, I just read the "Blink" spell It's actually the exact same thing (completely unintentional) So you gain the blink spell. Now the differences between the two? WEll with Displacement, you can attack people. (When etheral you can't) And.. pretty much what I said. You hve a 20% chance fo missing, they have a 50% chance of missing.

Oh, And this is wierd. I was reading up on Empty Body. Now according to Empty Body, It is similar to the spell "Etherealness" We go to Etherealness and we find it's just like "Etheral Jaunt" Except you can bring people with you when you tun ethereal. Which begs the question: Can monk's bring people in the Empty Body ability?

oh, and a big difference between the two. Empty Body can walk through walls and go "Hey, Look at all the gaurds." you go unnoticed
Displacement, after several unlucky tries (losing a bit of hp) You finally appear on the other side and everyone looks at the newcomer and come to attack. "Hey, look at all the gaurds."

So Empty Body is to sneak around, or scout or even jsut to get out of there. Displacement is a way to fight.

As for adding teh damage at level 20. It'd be kind of late dont' you think? But if you don't want to add it earlier. Better late than never. All through your epic campaign you can deadl 4d6+20 because of your high wisdom.

I'm not sure about flight. I want to say yes... but then again, I want to say no. I mean, why would he be able to fly? I can see going etheral, since it's one step away from being of a different plane( Kinda) But... flying? Why?

paigeoliver
2007-04-26, 05:23 AM
Beefing up your dex and wisdom as a monk is a trap. Even if you jam your stat points in there you STILL have a bad armor class, and now your attacks and hit points suck as well.

Lets examine 2 monks. One is the traditional "Oh, my poor armor class monk". The other one says "Who cares about my armor class".

Both will be 6th level and both will have 8,000 GP to spend on basic items. Both will be 28 point buy. Both will select improved grapple, combat reflexes and improved trip as their monk feats.

Here is the "Oh, my armor class" monk.

STR 12, DEX 19, CON 12, INT 8, WIS 16, CHA 8
Feats: Dodge, mobility, Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse.

He bought ring of protection +1, amulet of natural armor +1, and gloves of DEX +2 (included in stats).

His armor class is 20 (just like a 1st level halfling rogue). He also has 39 hit points and his flurry attack is at +7/+7 for 1d8+1 points of damage each.

Here is the "Who cares about my armor class" monk.

STR 20, DEX 13, CON 18, INT 8, WIS 8, CHA 8.
Feats. Improved Initiative, Toughness, weapon focus, improved natural attack.

His equipment (included in stat block) are gloves of STR+2 and amulet of CON+2.

His armor class is 12, he has 60 hit points and his flurry is at +9/+9 for 2d6+4 damage.

Ok, lets fight them a few times. I'll just have them start off base to base for simplicities purpose. Any manuevering by either one just slows the fight without changing anything.

Fight one. AC monk init 13, STR monk init 8.
AC monk hits twice, damage 10 (50)
STR monk hits once, damage 11 (28)
AC monk hits twice, damage 10 (40)
STR monk misses twice
AC monk hits once. Damage 4 (36)
STR monk rolls crit threat, does not confirm. Damage 13 (15)
AC monk hits once. Damage 9 (25)
STR monk hits once. Damage 11 (4)
AC monk hits once. Damage 5 (20)
STR monk hits once. Damage 9 (-5) and AC monk is down.

Second go. STR monk wins init.
STR monk hits his flatfooted opponent twice. Damage 23 (16)
AC monk hits twice. Damage 12 (48)
STR monk hits once. Damage 9 (7)
AC monk hits twice. Damage 8 (40)
STR monk hits twice. Damage 24 (negative 17 and dead, dead).

Third go.
AC monk wins initiative and hits twice. Damage 12 (48)
STR monk flurries and initiates a grapple, hitting the touch attack and getting a grapple check of 31 (opposed 11), second grapple check of 27 (vs 20) doing 22 damage. (17).
AC monk grapples back, magnificently winning both opposed grapple checks and doing 13 damage (35).
STR monk wins both opposed grapple checks on his turn doing 19 damage, which leaves his opponent dying on the ground.


Simpler monk solutions

Remove the wisdom to armor class bonus (which essentially removes all ties the class has to wisdom), and add 4 to the armor class bonus at all levels 5th and up (more complicated version is to have the AC scale up to the 5th level bonus).

Alternate solution.

Remove wisdom to armor class and give them dex to armor class a second time.

Roderick_BR
2007-04-26, 07:58 AM
I know that Flurry is supposed to be better than TWF, that's why I said to keep the "reducing the penalty" and wrote it so he have the 4th attack as if he had Supreme TWF. The idea is to balance it more, since he'll have a higher BAB.
His Flurry at level 20 would be +20/+20/+15/+15/+10/+10/+5/+5, without penalties, as long he can full attack.

As for speed, I tought something interesting. We could get him the ability to use X rounds/day of haste. This way he can close in to enemies easier to use his flurries, thus not being unable to use his main feature. I think there was a samurai class in Hokugan that had a similar ability. However, I think it was changed in 3.5. You doesn't gain a partial action anymore, only an extra attack. But since movement is considered something less complex than an attack or casting a spell, a DM could allow it.

And how about a Improved Ki Blast feat? 6d6 points of damage instead of 3d6 :smallamused: Camon, Wizards can do biggest damage spells, and people say that's an underpowered way of using spells.

The "dragon punch" idea is good too. Make it a feat that you can add your Wisdom modifier to your attack and damage when you can't use flurries.
Hmm.... it could be like a Smite too. Wisdom bonus to attack, and adding the monk level as damage bonus, a limited number of days? That equal him to a paladin in combat power.

Ponce
2007-04-26, 01:54 PM
I wasn't thinking Extra damage die. I was just thinking extra damage. +5 wisdom modifier means +5 damage with attacks. You gain this ability at 4th level. Use Wisdom instead of STrength for extra damage dealt.

Alright, you win. :P

Wisdom or Strength do damage on unarmed attacks, whichever is higher. This will make the Ki Strike (axiomatic) sort of pointless. Adding Wis to damage twice is distasteful, I think.

This ought to overcome the "trap" pointed out by paigeoliver while keeping the class tied to wisdom.


His Flurry at level 20 would be +20/+20/+15/+15/+10/+10/+5/+5, without penalties, as long he can full attack.

You don't think 8 attacks in a round is a bit much? This can be combined with real TWF, remember, for an additional 3?


And how about a Improved Ki Blast feat? 6d6 points of damage instead of 3d6 :smallamused: Camon, Wizards can do biggest damage spells, and people say that's an underpowered way of using spells.

Ki Blast isn't very useful for dealing damage. A whole round, and all you get is 3d6+Wisdom Modifier? Or in this case 6d6. I don't see it as very useful except to interrupt spells, and even then, not very useful.

The Dragon Punch idea is interesting. Perhaps a sort of smite against chaotic creatures? Class levels to damage? Might want to rename it though, as dragons can be chaotic.

Roderick_BR
2007-04-26, 02:54 PM
You don't think 8 attacks in a round is a bit much? This can be combined with real TWF, remember, for an additional 3?
It sounds like a lot, but compared to others meleers, that can deal more damage with fewer attacks, it's not too overpowered, mainly because you can't flurry all the time.
About adding normal TWF: making Flurry a TWF variant already solves that problem. You can't get normal TWF and add it to a ranger's TWF, so you can't add normal TWF with flurry. If you think 8 attacks is too much, you can reduce it to 7, as normal TWF works, and make a epic feat to allow the monk to use that 4th extra attack.
Reworking it:
Level 1: 1 extra attack at full base attack. All attacks at -2
Level 3: Extra penalty is reduced to -1
Level 6: 1 extra attack at -5 bab. All attacks at -1
Level 9: No more extra penalty
Level 12: 1 extra attack at -10. No extra penalty.

The Ki blast with 6d6 is just an alternative for ranged attacks, no much to worry about. How about making monks proficient with bows and long bows (but not composite ones)? I saw lots of stories where monks are good with bows, as part of their training. Hence why "Zen" Archery have that name. A fighter or ranger would still be better than a monk.

Ponce
2007-04-27, 12:42 AM
I'm still not certain. What you are suggesting is essentially the same as Flurry of Blows, excepting that the attacks are made at reduced BaB, whereas flurry is at full BaB.

Archery is an interesting idea. Longbows were tools of organized war, as I recall, I'm not sure if they would fit into the monk scheme. Shortbows would be interesting, though. Add them, perhaps?

Falconsflight
2007-04-27, 12:55 AM
They already have Shurikens and stuff you know. It's not exactly as if they don't have range weaponds. but I know what you mean. They need something ranged. Something to deal with that flier. But again, has to fit the scheme. I don't know what myself, but something.

Hes suggesting more than 2 attacks, but rather three attacks that follows the TWF feat tree. With the extra added ability of no minus from it. At level 12, you get 6 attacks from Flurry of blows and iteritive attacks, at no penalty to attack.

@roderick: The reason you don't add TWF feat with the Combat STyle.. is because the Combat style IS TWF feat. It says in the book "You gain the TWF feat."


EDIT: Okay, an idea struck me. How about "Earth Attack" In which A monk can strike the ground and make something akin to an earthquake (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/earthquake.htm) happen? Maybe just keep it like the spell? Or should he be able to better control it? Make it localized on a creature or an area.

Also, for ranged attacks: Wave Fist. They have the ability to use their unarmed strikes from a distance. It's combined with Ki (Adamantine). This allows him to have a ranged attack, and follow the "Hit a lot, for little damage, and not get hit himself." As well as the "He's a supernatural being soon" It's not a force attack. It's more just a literal Ranged touch attack. We can decide if it ignores armor or not, and how many times a day it's useable, but what do you think?

Caelestion
2007-04-28, 05:35 AM
This one I like better, but I just don't like the idea that an11th-level monk suddenly gains two attacks. Why not stagger it untill 12th or 13th?

Ponce
2007-04-28, 10:20 PM
Also, for ranged attacks: Wave Fist. They have the ability to use their unarmed strikes from a distance. It's combined with Ki (Adamantine). This allows him to have a ranged attack, and follow the "Hit a lot, for little damage, and not get hit himself." As well as the "He's a supernatural being soon" It's not a force attack. It's more just a literal Ranged touch attack. We can decide if it ignores armor or not, and how many times a day it's useable, but what do you think?

This sounds very good, as well as very similar. Is it based off an existing ability or feat?

The earthquake idea is also interesting, but are you sure it fits the theme? It mirrors a Stonelord ability of the same name (CF PrC).

I'm adding shortbows. Yes, they have shurikens, which deal a stunning 1d2 damage if medium. 1 damage if small. I'll try not to soil myself.


This one I like better, but I just don't like the idea that an11th-level monk suddenly gains two attacks. Why not stagger it untill 12th or 13th?I had mentioned this earlier, and it still bothers me. I will change Greater Flurry to move the extra attack to 13th level.

Edit: I forgot to mention, what are everyone's ideas on the Wave Fist attack? I was thinking 1/day for every 3 class levels. Should you get a Greater Wave Fist that allows you to expend uses as flurry of blows as well?

Falconsflight
2007-04-28, 10:33 PM
I don't have Fearun(is what I'm guessing CF stands for) nor Forgotten realms, so I wouldn't know.

Also, yeah. I stole the whole wave fist thing from FFtactics. The monk in that could strike an opponent x squares away in a straight line.

And if we want to advance it, we could give "Penetrating Wave strike" And have it do the penetrating feat thing. You know, full to the first guy, then less to each other guy, and hit everybody in a line.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-04-29, 12:30 AM
Reduce the Base Attack back to 3/4; with Flurry of Blows the number of extra attacks becomse too obscene.

Caelestion
2007-04-29, 07:50 AM
As opposed to a ranger with only Improved Two-Weapon Fighting?

ArmorArmadillo
2007-04-29, 03:28 PM
As opposed to a ranger with only Improved Two-Weapon Fighting?
The monk gets two extra attacks at ultimately no penalty.
The ranger will always take a -2 penalty, and takes additional -5s on his iterative off-hand attacks.

A monk with full BAB hits for +20/+20/+20/+15/+10/+5;
A ranger with full BAB hits for +18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3; Only one more attack and significantly lower bonuses.

Besides: the point of a monk is support combat, not primary tanking.

Ceiling009
2007-04-29, 04:28 PM
The Monk is still sort of underpowered when compared as a support fighter from other perspectives, especially the ToB. The Swordsage lacks flurry, but I would consider a better alternative... They still get the power attacks and the like... while the monk, though may have an obscene number of times to hit with... probably rarely hits for more than half of thier total number to hit, and when hitting does a measely 2d10+str which in most cases is rather low compared to that warblade or even swordsage pulling off maneuvers and having a better set of weapons... The monk should be able to go toe to toe with nearly anything and make due, as of now, going straight monk doesn't do it.

Ponce
2007-04-30, 08:53 PM
A monk with full BAB hits for +20/+20/+20/+15/+10/+5;
A ranger with full BAB hits for +18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3; Only one more attack and significantly lower bonuses.

Besides: the point of a monk is support combat, not primary tanking.

A monk with 3/4 BaB hits for +15/+15/+15/+10/+5. Two less attacks than the ranger at a very low bonus. What can this accomplish at level 20? What can -2/-2 accomplish at level 1?

What do you mean by "support combat?" You mean like a cleric, for whom combat is, in theory, one of two roles the character excels in? If so, what is the monk's other role? What is it he can do if not to hit and grapple things?


I don't have Fearun(is what I'm guessing CF stands for) nor Forgotten realms, so I wouldn't know.

Sorry, I meant CW. Fighter on the brain, I guess.