[REQUESTING FEEDBACK] An Idea for a Difficult Dungeon

[Altrunchen]

Introduction:
So there is a trans-dimensional & trans-planar threat that is on the verge of mortal comprehension without being an eldritch abomination. To defeat it is to conquer fundamental aspects of entropy and what some may consider fate. To meet this theme, the dungeon uses rules that are meant to simulate reality behaving differently or irregularly. I designed this dungeon bearing in mind that people would probably figure out a way to beat it in short order, but I was unsure if I should make it more difficult or not. So I am posting this here to see what people think.

Dungeon Information:
Basic Information:
Walls, Floors, and Ceiling:The walls, floors, and ceiling are opaque wispy barriers of an incomprehensible presence. They cannot be climbed, damaged, manipulated, or destroyed in any way shape or form. Magic is absorbed by them and undone. Meaning detection magic does not function through them, nor does teleportation or anything else that would normally be unhindered by their presence.
Setting:A separate dimension unbound by any particular plane.
Atmosphere:Normal
Light: None
Corridor Size: 5 feet wide usually.
Room Size: Mostly 4x4 squares at the most.
Recommended Level: 20+

Special Rules:

The dungeon must be completed in 13 rounds or else all intruders and their carried possessions are obliterated without any saving throws.
The whole dungeon is run in initiative.
Teleportation does not work here whatsoever. Plane-shifting only works for those who wish to arrive here. Outward plane-shifting does not work. If you arrive here, it's a one-way trip. The only way to survive is to get through the dungeon and defeat the boss.
Every round roll 1d4. 1= 1 character dies; 2= all characters lose 1 ability point from a random ability (Irreparable as long as they remain in the asylum); 3= an item on each character is destroyed; 4=nothing
Regardless of race or any circumstances, all intruders (i.e. player characters) are bound to the floor as much as a human incapable of flight is. Meaning no hovering, flying or anything, you have to walk essentially. You can jump if you like and you will briefly leave the floor but that's it.
Every round roll 1d4: 1=Spawn black sphere; 2=Spawn 1 grey sphere; 3-Spawn 1 white sphere; 4-Spawn 0 spheres
The hidden doors in this dungeon are marked with a blue line on the DM map. They consume a move action to pass through as they require a fair bit of force to move through, as if moving through gravel in terms of density. Discovering them is impossible with a search check as they appear just like all the walls around them, it requires a move action on the exact spot to find one. (after finding the first one, this becomes easy and predictable as to where the "doors" are)
Every round roll 1d10, that is the school of magic that is functional for that round only. If a spell's duration lasts longer than that round, it only continues to function if the allowed school of magic is the same in the following round. To discover what school of magic is currently permitted for that round, one must either use a wish spell or a miracle spell.

1- Abjuration
2- Conjuration
3- Divination
4- Enchantment
5- Evocation
6- Illusion
7- Necromancy
8- Transmutation
9- Universal
10- All


Main Puzzle:
To proceed to the boss fight, you have to bring the 4 (out of 18) correct orbs to the southernmost chamber, and place each orb in the correct corner. These are all distributed into their own chambers across three wings, each with 6 chambers each at the end of long, winding corridors that are 1 square wide.

Each orb chamber is marked with a number on the DM map.

The correct orbs to grab are different every time the dungeon is entered. Once the party arrives in the dungeon, roll 1d18 four times. The results of those rolls determine which orbs should be used via the number that their chamber is marked with. Keep track of the order that the numbers are rolled in, they are assigned a number for reference.

1st roll = 1
2nd roll = 2
3rd roll = 3
4th roll = 4

The correct order to place the orbs in the corners of the southern chamber is determined by first rolling 1d4. The result of the first die roll then assigns the corresponding sphere to the North-West corner. Then, roll 1d4 again, if you get a number that is used, then re-roll. Assigning the next, different, number to the South-East corner. Repeat this process so that the corners are occupied in this order: North-West, South-East, North-East, South-West.

If you want to avoid this process, then this is the default combination:

North-West: 1
North-East: 3
South-West: 4
South-East: 2

This door is only passable if the 4 correct orbs are placed in the correct corners in this room. It leads to the final encounter with the boss.

There is a 1 in 13 chance that despite the correct placement of the orbs, that passing through the door will obliterate whatever passes through. Meaning that fate ultimately decides if you get to fight the boss fight. If you roll a 1, then it's game over for whoever goes through the portal.

Enemies:
These enemies are purposefully built and equipped with abilities that violate the norms of monster creation. The purpose is that since the dungeon is on the fringe of reality, where the laws of physics and magic begin to destabilize. The violation of the rules of monster creation is meant to simulate the violation of the rules of reality.

Black Sphere: Rolls 1d100 for an attack roll, and 1d100 for damage, at a range of 1d100. AC is 25 and 13 in all abilities and other stats. 130 HP.
White Sphere: Heals 1d100, at a range of 1d100. AC is 25 and 13 in all abilities and other stats. 130 HP.
Grey Sphere: Causes a random status condition, at a range of 1d100, with a DC of 1d100. AC is 25 and 13 in all abilities and other stats. 130 HP.

Difficulty:
I am making this dungeon with the knowledge that despite the fact that I do not know how to beat it, that someone will inevitably figure out how. Since there is an apparent rule in D&D that if you stat something that the players will eventually figure out how to kill it. So I made a dungeon that may seem impossible but that I figure someone will figure out how to beat.

----------

So I want to ask this community the following things:

1.) What do they think of this dungeon?
2.) Do they know a way to instantly beat it?
2.1) Do they have a strategy on how to beat it?
3.) Is there anything they would change about it?
4.) Would they ever consider running it?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

1.) What do they think of this dungeon?
4.) Would they ever consider running it?

These are the two I'm going to answer.

I think this is a poorly concieved dungeon. It's not fun: it's the I Wanna Be the Guy of dungeons, where you win or lose instantly based on things you had no way of knowing ahead of time, or based on random chance you can't participate in.

Killing the spheres is trivial if they appear, but the hard time limit and the randomized "fetch-quest" puzzle with divination blocked and spells fizzling or burning through Wish spells makes the entire thing feel forced.

I'd just use Wish to call the correct orbs to my location (since I assume Universal spells can be cast at any time), and another Wish to put them in the correct order. That solves that problem nicely, and then my party has 11+ rounds to destroy the boss.

But I'd never run this dungeon. It's an exercise in futility: either the party meta-games the heck out of it and makes it a cakewalk, or it destroys the players with no potential recourse based on circumstances or knowledge requirements beyond their control. That's not fun for anyone.

[Altrunchen]

These are the two I'm going to answer.

I think this is a poorly concieved dungeon. It's not fun: it's the I Wanna Be the Guy of dungeons, where you win or lose instantly based on things you had no way of knowing ahead of time, or based on random chance you can't participate in.

Killing the spheres is trivial if they appear, but the hard time limit and the randomized "fetch-quest" puzzle with divination blocked and spells fizzling or burning through Wish spells makes the entire thing feel forced.

I'd just use Wish to call the correct orbs to my location (since I assume Universal spells can be cast at any time), and another Wish to put them in the correct order. That solves that problem nicely, and then my party has 11+ rounds to destroy the boss.

But I'd never run this dungeon. It's an exercise in futility: either the party meta-games the heck out of it and makes it a cakewalk, or it destroys the players with no potential recourse based on circumstances or knowledge requirements beyond their control. That's not fun for anyone.

Ah yes, universal spells, I felt like I was forgetting something. I'll have to add that to the list. Thank you. To be honest, I forgot to mention the fact that this dungeon is supposed to happen at the end of campaign where right before they show up, they would have plenty of ability to learn from the right NPCs what the aspects of the dungeon would be. This wouldn't be a drop-in module like ToH, but would be the culmination of a whole series of quests and so on. That being said, I had a bad feeling that this might be an example of what Extra Credits might call "depriving the players of volition". Normally my dungeons aren't like this, and I will admit that this is definitely a rail-road dungeon with annoying rules. I suppose I should work on determining an algorithm for the ideal balance of variables for a difficult dungeon. One that I could tweak to the playstyle of a party.

I also figured that someone who has read just about every splatbook and supplement out there would say something like "Oh there's this spell from this one sentence in this one book that could undo the whole dungeon." and wanted to provide a circumstance that, despite what books are used, would be universally hard.

But I forgot that wish is a universal spell, I'll have to add that then.

Also, I think I will indeed start trying to make an algorithm with adjustable variables to help generate the information for a dungeon with ideal difficulty if possible.

Thank you very much for your candor.

I hope I can gain other perspectives from this forum, perhaps there is something that neither of us is considering?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

To be honest, I forgot to mention the fact that this dungeon is supposed to happen at the end of campaign where right before they show up, they would have plenty of ability to learn from the right NPCs what the aspects of the dungeon would be.

Even knowing the rules ahead of time I'd feel awful about running this: without a specific course of action that trivializes the dungeon it's not going to be enjoyable...and trivializing it won't be fun either, especially for a campaign-ending experience.


That being said, I had a bad feeling that this might be an example of what Extra Credits might call "depriving the players of volition". Normally my dungeons aren't like this, and I will admit that this is definitely a rail-road dungeon with annoying rules.

Yep. There's no give to this at all: either you win by trivializing the dungeon with the right abilities (and a bit of luck), or you die horribly, no save, no chance of escape.


But I forgot that wish is a universal spell, I'll have to add that then.

Note that by blocking Universal spells you're also blocking the ability to tell which spells can be cast on any given round. Wish is Universal, and Miracle is Evocation.


I hope I can gain other perspectives from this forum, perhaps there is something that neither of us is considering?

Perhaps. I wasn't looking for ways to beat it though, since the fundamental design of the dungeon itself seems, in my opinion, to be the antithesis of the sort of fun I want out of an RPG.

[nikkoli]

This sounds like it would be near impossible to complete. That being said, it is a fantastic mental exercise. I have never played with a group that could, in character, even have a chance to complete this, but I will being this up to my gaming group and see if we could figure out if it's even possible to complete.

[Altrunchen]

Even knowing the rules ahead of time I'd feel awful about running this: without a specific course of action that trivializes the dungeon it's not going to be enjoyable...and trivializing it won't be fun either, especially for a campaign-ending experience.



Yep. There's no give to this at all: either you win by trivializing the dungeon with the right abilities (and a bit of luck), or you die horribly, no save, no chance of escape.



Note that by blocking Universal spells you're also blocking the ability to tell which spells can be cast on any given round. Wish is Universal, and Miracle is Evocation.



Perhaps. I wasn't looking for ways to beat it though, since the fundamental design of the dungeon itself seems, in my opinion, to be the antithesis of the sort of fun I want out of an RPG.

I understand, and after your remarks and some of my own observations, I am indeed thinking of permanently shelving this dungeon for the unlikely event that someone wants the absolute most difficult dungeon I can throw at them.


This sounds like it would be near impossible to complete. That being said, it is a fantastic mental exercise. I have never played with a group that could, in character, even have a chance to complete this, but I will being this up to my gaming group and see if we could figure out if it's even possible to complete.

Thank you! Let me know if you figure something out, because I honestly don't know how to complete this myself XD.

[nikkoli]

One other thing, my group uses pathfinder, 3.5, 3rd party for both and a lot of the different home brews found buried on this forum, do you want an anything goes attempt and also a 3.5/pathfinder/OGL attempt?
So far my only thoughts are miracle and wish, on the rounds they work, hoping that they work.
Edit: does the dungeon affect psionics like it does magic?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Pretty sure it's all but impossible, after a bit of searching (save for hoping Wish functions on a given round): Given the hidden doors, time required for Spot checks, Move Action to find the doors, and another Move Action to pass through them, I'm not sure it's actually possible to even collect the spheres within the round limit, let alone get them in the right order. Plus the chance of someone outright dying at the start of every round (a 25% chance, no less) means that your average party of 4 is down to just one guy before the 13 round limit even hits.

Given anything less than insane luck, I don't think this is doable.

[nikkoli]

If pathfinder is game, and this is an end game dungeon you can call the level 20 mythic 10 characters, who can all as a free or swift action, gain an aditional standard action, 23 times per day each, granted the casters may not use this extra action as a spell. There are also a multitude of those neat tricks in that rules subset to keep away from instant death things.

[nikkoli]

Update: my groups concensus was no, just no.

[Network]

To the generic:

So I want to ask this community the following things:

1.) What do they think of this dungeon?
2.) Do they know a way to instantly beat it?
2.1) Do they have a strategy on how to beat it?
3.) Is there anything they would change about it?
4.) Would they ever consider running it?
1. I dunno. Do you think a 100th-level god with Divine Rank 16 could survive in the dungeon? If not, I'd say it's definitely too powerful.
2. Umm... Wish, but you just have a 20% chance to succeed every round (30% if you have one player who Wish-spam and another who Miracle-spam. I don't think there are any other useful spells here).
2.1. This is a tricky question. My best bet would be to find characters who, for some reason, have True Resurrection as a spell-like ability (let's say they are hierophants). You'll need as many of these guys as possible (let's say, 12). They are required to prevent the 1 in 4 chances of a character dying each round from crippling your party for good. Also, I'd bring with me as many mooks (lets say 1st level commoners) as humanely possible; they'll soak up the losses and will considerably quicken the time it takes to find the right orbs. You also need a couple characters who can cast Miracle, a couple who can cast Wish, and a couple more who can cast Divination spells that can help you find the correct orbs and their correct position (even in the best case scenario, you'll have a 40% chance per round, unless there is a Conjuration or Necromancy spell that can help you on that as well). The color spheres are not even a real issue; you just need a couple more characters to take them down before they kill too much commoners (while it would be cool to have a 'not enough space available for unit placement' error by having TOO MUCH mooks, I wouldn't count on it. We aren't playing sc1, after all). Your little army of mooks and high-level spellcasters should eventually figure out how to place the orbs and bring them in the correct position. You then need to convince the boss to come on your side of the boss door (Dominate Monster should work here). If you succeed, there's a 1 in 13 chance to win the fight right there, isn't there? Except it isn't explicitely stated that killing the boss will make you escape the dungeon... Of course, that option basically assume you are running the tippyverse, which isn't exactly what most tables are comfortable with.
Another solution is simpler, but would require either a character with levels in the legendary dreadnought class and an high enough Strength score to break open an indestructible wall, or a very specific major artifact from a 3rd party book. The Reckoner (an artifact dagger from the book The Last Gods) deals damage to anything it strikes, and tunneling through walls (presumably including walls of forces or, say, any indestructible walls, for that matter) is given as an example of what it could be used for. Either options (a legendary dreadnought or the Reckoner) would allow you to just ignore the whole puzzle by destroying the boss door the orbs should let you open.
A third solution uses stupid RAW over RAI. You can just Plane Shift into the boss room and kill the boss, oblivious to the puzzle you skipped (and wondering why is there a door that doesn't open when the boss dies).
3.About everything I mentioned in the spoiler below, which unfortunately includes almost the whole dungeon.
4.Yes, but only if the players were in a situation to use one of the above tricks (ie. I was running a tippyverse, one of them was a legendary dreadnought, I ran The Last God some time before, or one of the players was smart enough to teleport... err... plane shift to the boss room).

And now to the specifics:

Introduction:
So there is a trans-dimensional & trans-planar threat that is on the verge of mortal comprehension without being an eldritch abomination. To defeat it is to conquer fundamental aspects of entropy and what some may consider fate. To meet this theme, the dungeon uses rules that are meant to simulate reality behaving differently or irregularly. I designed this dungeon bearing in mind that people would probably figure out a way to beat it in short order, but I was unsure if I should make it more difficult or not. So I am posting this here to see what people think.
I don't have the feeling any of this transpires in the dungeon itself. The dungeon is more luck than fate, and any connections to entropy or irregularities in reality are thin at best. Let's see how to beat it then.

Dungeon Information:
Basic Information:
Walls, Floors, and Ceiling:The walls, floors, and ceiling are opaque wispy barriers of an incomprehensible presence. They cannot be climbed, damaged, manipulated, or destroyed in any way shape or form. Magic is absorbed by them and undone. Meaning detection magic does not function through them, nor does teleportation or anything else that would normally be unhindered by their presence.
What's the gameplay effect of walls that 'absorb' magic? Because in D&D terms, absorbing magic would suggest the walls project an anti-magic field effect or something, which doesn't seem to be RAI here. Also, I think it would be far simpler to just have the walls, floors and ceiling as opaque walls of force. Blocking teleportation should probably be covered elsewhere.

Setting:A separate dimension unbound by any particular plane.
That's not how D&D works. Maybe the dungeon is its own plane. Maybe its on many planes at once. But I can't see how it can be 'unbound by any particular plane', because then even Plane Shift couldn't bring you to it (that spell only goes from one plane to the next, not from one plane to not-even-a-plane).

Atmosphere:Normal
Light: None
So you need to bring torches! I hope you're not forgetting it. Players will have one free hand at best, never two.

Corridor Size: 5 feet wide usually.
Room Size: Mostly 4x4 squares at the most.
Recommended Level: 20+
I'm ok with it. Must be a small dungeon then.

Special Rules:

The dungeon must be completed in 13 rounds or else all intruders and their carried possessions are obliterated without any saving throws.
Wait, what? Your player characters have what, 22 pieces and four corridors to visit? Considering this alone they should have 26 rounds of time, and that's not even considering the boss fight.

The whole dungeon is run in initiative.
Teleportation does not work here whatsoever. Plane-shifting only works for those who wish to arrive here. Outward plane-shifting does not work. If you arrive here, it's a one-way trip. The only way to survive is to get through the dungeon and defeat the boss.
That works.

Every round roll 1d4. 1= 1 character dies; 2= all characters lose 1 ability point from a random ability (Irreparable as long as they remain in the asylum); 3= an item on each character is destroyed; 4=nothing
How does the death of a character works? Is this more like Finger of Death/Power Word Kill or Implosion? If the former, you should mention its a death effect so that (supernatural) Death Ward will protect against it. If the later, you should probably drop it as the single redeeming feature of Implosion is that it doesn't work in an antimagic field. Currently the only way this would not be broken is if at least two characters in the party can cast double-rapid quickened True Resurrection, which is major cheese pre-epic and still a little cheesy beyond epic levels.

Regardless of race or any circumstances, all intruders (i.e. player characters) are bound to the floor as much as a human incapable of flight is. Meaning no hovering, flying or anything, you have to walk essentially. You can jump if you like and you will briefly leave the floor but that's it.
Every round roll 1d4: 1=Spawn black sphere; 2=Spawn 1 grey sphere; 3-Spawn 1 white sphere; 4-Spawn 0 spheres
Ok, though given that the ceiling is probably something like 10 feet tall I can't think of any reason to ban flight. It just doesn't offer much of an advantage in this dungeon.

The hidden doors in this dungeon are marked with a blue line on the DM map. They consume a move action to pass through as they require a fair bit of force to move through, as if moving through gravel in terms of density. Discovering them is impossible with a search check as they appear just like all the walls around them, it requires a move action on the exact spot to find one. (after finding the first one, this becomes easy and predictable as to where the "doors" are)
So you should fully expect players to take 1 full round for every 10 feet of wall they would have to inspect, if they think about it at all. I say that because 13 rounds of time will only let you check up to 120 feet worth of wall, and nothing else (unless the PCs are elves. They are always considered to be actively searching all around them without touching anything or using any action, and this ability really looks like it's a 'you automatically succeed on the Search check if you're on the right spot').

Every round roll 1d10, that is the school of magic that is functional for that round only. If a spell's duration lasts longer than that round, it only continues to function if the allowed school of magic is the same in the following round. To discover what school of magic is currently permitted for that round, one must either use a wish spell or a miracle spell.

1- Abjuration
2- Conjuration
3- Divination
4- Enchantment
5- Evocation
6- Illusion
7- Necromancy
8- Transmutation
9- Universal
10- All
[/LIST]
That just doesn't work. Either Universal spells work all the time, or Miracle and Wish do not reveal anything. There is basically two scenarios that can happen in this case:
Scenario 1:
PC: I cast Wish to learn which school is available this round.
GM: Wish is an Universal spell right? Well, it fails. Not the right school this round.

Scenario 2:
PC: I cast Wish to learn which school is available this round.
GM: You successfully cast Wish and spend 5,000 XP. You learn that spells of the Universal school were the one to work on that round.
PC: Of course they do, otherwise the spell would have failed and I would have kept the XP...

See? No matter the outcome, the PC would have been in a better position had he not tried to cast Wish for that dumb purpose. Hell, even a quickened Prestidigitation could have told him that yes, Universal spells were the ones available this round, without wasting the XP.


Main Puzzle:
To proceed to the boss fight, you have to bring the 4 (out of 18) correct orbs to the southernmost chamber, and place each orb in the correct corner. These are all distributed into their own chambers across three wings, each with 6 chambers each at the end of long, winding corridors that are 1 square wide.

Each orb chamber is marked with a number on the DM map.

The correct orbs to grab are different every time the dungeon is entered. Once the party arrives in the dungeon, roll 1d18 four times. The results of those rolls determine which orbs should be used via the number that their chamber is marked with. Keep track of the order that the numbers are rolled in, they are assigned a number for reference.

1st roll = 1
2nd roll = 2
3rd roll = 3
4th roll = 4

The correct order to place the orbs in the corners of the southern chamber is determined by first rolling 1d4. The result of the first die roll then assigns the corresponding sphere to the North-West corner. Then, roll 1d4 again, if you get a number that is used, then re-roll. Assigning the next, different, number to the South-East corner. Repeat this process so that the corners are occupied in this order: North-West, South-East, North-East, South-West.
This is dumb. There is no need to keep the order, and then roll 1d4 to assign positions. It's like you were rolling twice for the same thing.


If you want to avoid this process, then this is the default combination:

North-West: 1
North-East: 3
South-West: 4
South-East: 2

This door is only passable if the 4 correct orbs are placed in the correct corners in this room. It leads to the final encounter with the boss.
I don't know, you could have just assign the positions clockwise. As I said, no need to roll the same thing twice, and you already kept the order of the 4d18. Also, how are the players supposed to know which orbs to move and in which order? They'd need a few tries (3 or 4) at least, and that should be reflected in the amount of time they have at hand.

There is a 1 in 13 chance that despite the correct placement of the orbs, that passing through the door will obliterate whatever passes through. Meaning that fate ultimately decides if you get to fight the boss fight. If you roll a 1, then it's game over for whoever goes through the portal.
I don't think even Tomb of Horror has a 'well the number says you just die. No, you had no way of knowing ahead of time, and no, there is nothing you could have done to prevent it'. Maybe immunity to disintegration should help here? That's the only thing I can come up with.

Enemies:
These enemies are purposefully built and equipped with abilities that violate the norms of monster creation. The purpose is that since the dungeon is on the fringe of reality, where the laws of physics and magic begin to destabilize. The violation of the rules of monster creation is meant to simulate the violation of the rules of reality.

Black Sphere: Rolls 1d100 for an attack roll, and 1d100 for damage, at a range of 1d100. AC is 25 and 13 in all abilities and other stats. 130 HP.
White Sphere: Heals 1d100, at a range of 1d100. AC is 25 and 13 in all abilities and other stats. 130 HP.
Grey Sphere: Causes a random status condition, at a range of 1d100, with a DC of 1d100. AC is 25 and 13 in all abilities and other stats. 130 HP.
Unnn... what? Even Far Realm natives have stats just like the other monsters, and some splatbook heavily suggest that the Far Realm does not belong to the Multiverse (and is therefore an entirely different reality in itself). You should probably come up with a more elegant way to present the monsters. Even the randomness of it isn't bad as long as they are formated like the other monsters.


Difficulty:
I am making this dungeon with the knowledge that despite the fact that I do not know how to beat it, that someone will inevitably figure out how. Since there is an apparent rule in D&D that if you stat something that the players will eventually figure out how to kill it. So I made a dungeon that may seem impossible but that I figure someone will figure out how to beat.

[Xuldarinar]

So on top of the difficulty of everything else, upon entering you have 78 seconds.

I know I repeat what has been stated, but I think the degree of randomness and the potential volatility of the die rolls results in something that is devastating.


2.) Do they know a way to instantly beat it?

I think walking away from the table would be a start.

2.1) Do they have a strategy on how to beat it?

Lunge at the DM and find a way to get the dice away from them. Alternatively, to make things easier, bring psionics character in and hope transparency isn't in play. I think pathfinder psionic's time regression, time hop, and temporal acceleration powers would prove useful.

3.) Is there anything they would change about it?

Im not certain. There is a certain beauty to the volatility of fate. Provided one is aware of the puzzle, and perhaps can learn the combination before entering, fate would be on one's side. Wish and miracle are admittedly poor choices to determine what school would be allowed as, they would only function in one of two cases, informing you that universal school spells would be permissible that round.

4.) Would they ever consider running it?

If the DM put it there, and there is a good enough reason to, then yeah I would give it a go.