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linkian19
2007-04-26, 05:44 PM
So I've read Stranger in a Strange Land and I Will Fear No Evil by Robert A. Heinlein and I've really enjoyed them. If you are into Sci-Fi I suggest reading both of them.

Amiria
2007-04-26, 05:53 PM
Hmm, I've read Stranger in a Strange Land, Friday, Starship Troopers and some of his short stories. Good stuff, the original story of Starship Troopers is very different from the movie and I can really recommend Friday.

TheEmerged
2007-04-26, 05:57 PM
RE: Starship Troopers. I read the book after seeing the movie. The movie had been recommended to me as one to see "whenever I got in the mood to really pick something to death." After seeing it, I was compelled to read the book the screenwriter had seen such a need to parody.

No, seriously: the movie is pretty much a parody of the actual story.

alec
2007-04-27, 05:21 AM
I used Starship Troopers as a text for english earlier in the year. Got quite good marks for it as well.
I've read Friday, I Will Fear No Evil, Starship Troopers, Red Planet, Double Star, Farnham's Freehold, and I think some others. Didn't like Double Star as much as the others, just didn't grab me.

Om
2007-04-27, 05:50 AM
My thoughts on Starship Troopers are pretty much a matter of record on this forum so I'll leave it at that.

Jayabalard
2007-04-27, 10:14 AM
Personally, I'd put The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, Glory Road, and Starship Troopers over either of the ones that you mention... I'd also recommend most of his "juveniles", books like The Rolling Stones, Between Planets, Red Planet, Rocket Ship Galileo, Tunnel in the Sky, Have Spacesuit Will Travel, Citizen of the Galaxy, Farmer in the Sky (you can probably find a complete list somewhere out on the web, those are the ones I remember offhand).

He's got some great short stories too... which make up most of stuff for his "future history (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_History)" time line (other than Methuselah's Children and Time Enough for Love, which are one of the few full length books that really fit into that timeline).

It's unfortunate that all of the movies that they've made out of his books have been absolute crap; they cut out what made them such good Sci-Fi.

Thiel
2007-04-27, 04:57 PM
And a lot that didn't make sense.
He specifically mentioned how ineffective/obsolete rifles were and what did they use in the film? That's right, rifles.

Cyrano
2007-04-27, 08:39 PM
Read Starship Troopers a few years ago, don't remember at all.
Just finished Time Enough for Love.
Currently reading The Moon is a Harsh Mistress.
I hope to find the rest of my Lazarus Long books....hmmm.

Reinforcements
2007-04-27, 09:09 PM
I've only read Starship Troopers, which is great, and The Cat Who Walked Through Walls, which is so weird that I don't remember anything about it.

bosssmiley
2007-04-28, 07:15 AM
My thoughts on Starship Troopers are pretty much a matter of record on this forum so I'll leave it at that.

Rightey-oh Mr Moorcock (http://web.archive.org/web/20021224193414/http://flag.blackened.net/liberty/moorcock.html). :smallwink:

Personal note: I liked the "Starship Troopers" movie as both an action film and a parody piece (Paul Verhoeven makes epic cheesy brainless filmic win!).

I also enjoyed the original book as a polemic and guide to the military mindset. It's fun to re-read as a counterpoint to the anti-forces guff currently spouted by a nasty (almost universally civilian) segment of the British 'opinion forming' elite. Quite eye-opening, if a little depressing.

Even if - as some assert - "Starship Troopers" is just a sub-"Red Badge of Courage" militaristic wet dream written by a man frustrated in his own military ambitions, it has a couple of interesting points to ponder in it; most notably "when is it the least bad option to fight, rather than negotiate?" Also APE suits are win! :smallcool:

At least "Starship Troopers" wasn't the obvious Mary Sue that a lot of Heinlein's writing was.

Reinforcements
2007-04-28, 08:34 AM
Rightey-oh Mr Moorcock (http://web.archive.org/web/20021224193414/http://flag.blackened.net/liberty/moorcock.html).
Wow. Michael Moorcock is a crazy, angry man.

Om
2007-04-28, 11:16 AM
Rightey-oh Mr Moorcock (http://web.archive.org/web/20021224193414/http://flag.blackened.net/liberty/moorcock.html). :smallwink: Is it wrong that I actually agree with a lot of that? Certainly the charge is true of Starship Troopers, and if you do a search of this forum you'll find I go into detail on that. Let's just say that the only real difference between Heinlein and Rand is that the former could actually write :smallwink:

Arlanthe
2007-04-28, 12:27 PM
Stranger in a Strange Land is still a classic. I have fond memories of that book.

Weezer
2007-04-28, 09:51 PM
Heinlein is by far my favorite author and for him my favorite books, from in decreasing order are Stranger in a Strange land, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, The Cat Who Walks Through Walls and finally Starship Troopers. While those aren't by far the only Heinlein books I've read, they are definetly his best.

Rainspattered
2007-04-28, 10:28 PM
The Moon is a Harsh Mistress and Red Planet are ideal for Space Anarchists everywhere.
Starship Troopers always gave me a creepy fascist vibe, but I'm onna them Space Anarchists, so a lot of things involving any form of government give me one of those.

McBish
2007-04-28, 10:31 PM
The Cat Who Walked Through Walls and Stranger in a Strange Land are good.

Deckmaster
2007-04-29, 01:15 AM
Rightey-oh Mr Moorcock (http://web.archive.org/web/20021224193414/http://flag.blackened.net/liberty/moorcock.html). :smallwink:

I can't believe I just read that whole thing. He goes off on everything.

He makes some good points, but it seems like he just doesn't get it when it comes to other things. Tolkien, for example, should not be read as a fiction of ideals, especially since it's not even science fiction.

EricDerKonig
2007-04-29, 01:42 AM
I quite like Heinlein. I've read a good number of his works, my favorites being the already mentioned A Citizen of the Galaxy, Starship Troopers, and The Moon is a Harsh Mistress.
Tunnel in the Sky was pretty interesting, too.

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-04-29, 02:32 AM
Read/seen Starship Troopers, and read Farnham's Freehold. Enjoyed both books thoroughly, and plan to read more of his work. The movie... well, my views are in the last Starship Troopers thread that was floating about the Playground.

Reinforcements
2007-04-30, 08:05 AM
I can't believe I just read that whole thing. He goes off on everything.

He makes some good points, but it seems like he just doesn't get it when it comes to other things. Tolkien, for example, should not be read as a fiction of ideals, especially since it's not even science fiction.
Not that I disagree with you, but as soon as someone compares Tolkien to Hitler I'm pretty much done listening to anything they have to say.

Piedmon_Sama
2007-04-30, 10:39 AM
I think it's a bit (well, more than a bit) libelous of him to call Tolkien and C.S Lewis "Failed Hitlers." That implies that, if they could, they would have made a world "safe for decency" by curtailing everyone's freedoms, which is probably what the essayist imagines. Every biographical piece I've read on Tolkien or Lewis suggests to me they were happy to leave well enough alone, and I know Lewis in multiple works emphasised personal freedom as much as Christianity.

Also, come on, Lovecraft? Talk about taking shots at a barn door target. Does he think anyone is going to read "Pictman's Model," or "Herbert West: Reanimator" and be convinced of the inferiority of the black race by Lovecraft's purple prose? Anyone who loves his fiction loves it for its rediculousness. I don't see how such bad, over-the-top writing is going to turn any young readers into fascist subversives.

ChomZ
2007-04-30, 11:35 AM
Yo,
I'm a fairlay well read Heinlein fan. I say all o' his jazz is sweat. Just thought I'd point out fo' all yeh that his storay writin' went through two stages that some o' you nitpickahs would like to pick;
1 - adventures; storays for plot and action, no real charactah developement
examples: farmer in the sky, star beast, red planet, starship troopers, space
cadets, glory road
2 - litrature (for lack o' bettah); books about character and society, usually
around a central character and how he doesn't quite fit
examples: Stranger in a strange land, job: a comedy of justice, time enough
for love, the cat who walks through walls (awsome)
I've read all those books (and more) and can't decide which is bettah, but there is deffinatelay a difference, a big one.

Jayabalard
2007-04-30, 02:54 PM
Certainly the charge is true of Starship Troopers.You can believe that if you wish; I didn't bother to read the whole article, just scane bits and pieces, but so far I can't really find much of anything in his analysis that I agree with... certainly nothing about starship troopers...but that's a different thread.

Pyrex
2007-04-30, 04:47 PM
RE: Starship Troopers. No, seriously: the movie is pretty much a parody of the actual story.

More satire than parody, but close enough. :smallwink:

The thing that amazed me though, is even with all the changes from the book to the movie it's obvious that the director got the book.

There was a serious change in tone when translated from print to screen, but the movie still at least attempted to show the downsides of allowing Democracy to devolve into a pseudo-Democratic Fascist police state.

Pyrex
2007-04-30, 04:50 PM
Starship Troopers always gave me a creepy fascist vibe, but I'm onna them Space Anarchists, so a lot of things involving any form of government give me one of those.


I'd have to call that mission accomplished then; as that's pretty much what it was about. :smalltongue:

Amiria
2007-04-30, 04:57 PM
Mhhm, a friend of mine once wrote an essay in English class (here in Germany) about Starship Troopers (the movie version). His main argument was, that the government purposefully fights the aliens with inferior tactics (masses of infantry, not powerful vehicles like tanks, or even things like nuclear weapons) to keep the society in a perpetual state of fear and war to ensure its continual, fascist rule.

Om
2007-04-30, 05:24 PM
You can believe that if you wish; I didn't bother to read the whole article, just scane bits and pieces, but so far I can't really find much of anything in his analysis that I agree with... certainly nothing about starship troopers...but that's a different thread.It is indeed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31069&highlight=Heinlein)and its probably best not to rehash old arguments here.
(http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31069&highlight=Heinlein)

Rainspattered
2007-05-02, 06:33 PM
Moorcock rescinded his statements about Tolkein and Lewis later on, to a degree; he's stated openly that he's harder on Tolkein because it's popularity has led to it being viewed in an almost "holy" light, untouchable to criticism, that he doesn't like. In an essay about a list of the 100 greatest fantasy works he compliled (something like that, anyway), he stated that he "gave Tolkein a hard time for everyone who neglected to do so." On the actual list, he qas quite generous to Tolkein's work. Additionally, in the article, he never calls Tolkein a fascist directly (generally a mildly conservative, upper-middle-class, Christian-valued guy, which is not really too far from the truth), he insinuates it only in the first paragraph, and that's an obvious (and pretty shamelessly sensationalistic) grab at reader attention.
I agree, to a lesser extent, with his comments about Heinlein. while I respecpect Heinlein's anti-authoritarian work, he's had his totalitarian moments, such as Starship Troopers. From being friends with a lady who knew his wife (and thereby being in loose association with her), I've come to understand he erred more on Moon is a Harsh Mistress side, in life, which is something Moorcock likely didn't know, or, especially if he was having one of his Oscar Wilde moments, care about.
Moorcocks' writing is best not taken in one dose. He has a habit of saying things and then explaining them much later.

Pyrex: You think Heinlein's intent was not to showcase his own views, but to point out the views of others in a satirical or warning way (as many postulate he did with Reaganism in To Sail Beyond the Sunset), to make one feel as though they were reading a fascist manifesto and recognize the dangers of such a futurstic world? What I've read of Heinlein's statements about the book would sort of contradict this. Not that he said "Yeah, I dig fascism," just that he mentioned his support for the ethics of the book from time to time. Which could mean he supports the warning of falling into a police state. Although, Heinlein wasn't too big on regular ol' democracy, either.

korath
2007-05-02, 08:43 PM
I have read most of Heinlein's (http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/h/robert-heinlein/) stuff. Pretty much anything I could get ahold of. There hasn't been one I did not like. Some favorites that were not yet mentioned:

To Sail Beyond The Sunset (http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/h/robert-heinlein/to-sail-beyond-sunset.htm)-dealt with Lazarus' Mother.

For Us, the Living (http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/h/robert-heinlein/for-us-living.htm)-released a few years ago, long after his death. Based on his rough drafts. I did enjoy it, although it seemed a bit preachy to me.

The Number of the Beast (http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/h/robert-heinlein/number-of-beast.htm)-I liked this one for the many many science fiction references.