Bard V. Dragon...:)

[BardicDuelist]

Well since wizard v. dragon and dragon v. wizard threads seem to be so common, I was wondering if we could do something actually challenging: Create a BARD level 20 who could take a dragon CR 20. What's next? Maybe the tarresque :smallbiggrin:

I would go Mage-Blooded Star-Elf Bard 10/ Sublime Chord 4/ Seeker of Song 1/ Spellsinger 5

The spellsinger would stack Sublime Chord and Seeker of Song for five levels. This gives more versitility in spell selection since your damage is taken care of (and you don't have to worry about spell resistance).

That, or Mage-Blooded Star-Elf Bard 10/ Sublime Chord 10. Song of cosmic fire coupled with a Choaker of Eloquence (+10), 24 ranks in perform, and a 30 Cha (15+4 racial +1/four levels +6 cloak of CHA ), and skill focus (perform) gives you at least 57damage in a round that ignores spell resistance and damage reduction (it is still magic). Song of timelessness could be used to just steal everything and leave.

Also note that this means +54 to bluff and diplomacy.

[brian c]

Hm... I'll admit I don't know a whole lot about Bards, but the best way to solo a dragon should be to incapacitate it in some way. Since Dragons are immune to sleep, it could get tricky but I'm sure it can be done.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Level 20 Bard should have a high enough Bluff and Diplomacy skill to be able to convince the Dragon to just give him the whole horde...

[jjpickar]

That would make a good song... Oh yeah, thread subject. Well Charmed and Dominated minions can be pretty useful so charm monster and dominate person should be in his spell list. Also the Dirgesinger PrC is a great debuffer at only 5 levels combined with some minions I could see a dragon having a tough time with the sorrowful songster. (No more alienating alliteration. Wait. NOOOO)

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

Bard attempts diplomacy, failing.
Dragon threatens bard.
Bard attempts Bluff check, failing.
Dragon threatens more angrily.
Bard attempts perform check, succeeding!
Dragon hates flutes.
Bard runs.
Dragon eats.

[ocato]

Song of Cosmic Fire and Song of Timelessness... are those Sublime Chord abilities or something? I don't have the book on that PrC... but it sounds velly velly interesting.

[Everyman]

I love bards to death, but no way could they handle a dragon on their own. Unless they manage to sneak up and successfully use their fascinate ability to lull the dragon into non-action (which may not work), there isn't much they'll be able to accomplish. Even then, they've only lulled the dragon into non-action. Now what?

A bard does not fight one-on-one. They have other things fight for them.

[Innis Cabal]

What Krimm said

[JaronK]

Pump Diplomacy. Admittedly, this would work better with a level of Binder and a level of Marshal, but even a pure Bard can easily beat the rushed diplomacy check to make the dragon his best friend.

JaronK

[deadseashoals]

A level 10 Sublime Chord is going to be almost as capable of dealing with the dragon as a level 20 Sorcerer. They get 9th level arcane spells! And despite what they say on the intarwebs, a level 20 Sorcerer is only underpowered if you compare it with a level 20 Wizard.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Bard attempts diplomacy, failing.
Dragon threatens bard.
Bard attempts Bluff check, failing.
Dragon threatens more angrily.
Bard attempts perform check, succeeding!
Dragon hates flutes.
Bard runs.
Dragon eats.

With modifiers easily reaching up over 40+? I don't see a bard failing, even against a dragon.

[Bardbarian]

Bard attempts diplomacy, failing.
Dragon threatens bard.
Bard attempts Bluff check, failing.
Dragon threatens more angrily.
Bard attempts perform check, succeeding!
Dragon hates flutes.
Bard runs.
Dragon eats.

--->Why exactly is the Bard failing Diplomacy? At Lvl 20, getting a +59 modifier is not difficult for a basic Diplomat build. Under RAW, a final score of 50 turns anybody "helpful," and Diplomacy can be done with a -10 as a full round action.

Without any real concern for optimization, if the Bard is LVL 20, that's
23 skill ranks,
a conservative +8 CHA mod (20 with a +6 enhancer,)
Skill Focus (Diplomacy) for +3,
Negotioator for +2,
Half-elf for +2 (yes, Half-elf,)
+6 in synergy from Bluff, Sense Motive, and Know (Nobility,)
Greater Choker of Eloquence for +10,
UMD of "Divine Insight" (+8 insight bonus) cast up to 3 hours before,
+62 total, well under 100K spent. (Don't forget 1 skill point for Draconic.)

Even if the DM imposes a -20 circumstance mod (your Bard had dragon egg omlettes of that particular dragon in the morning for breakfast,) you've only got to roll a 3 to make the Dragon "friendly."

[PnP Fan]

lol!!!
+62 diplomacy!
lol again!
I guess this explains where all of those half dragons come from!
hehehehhee

[Darkxarth]

lol!!!
+62 diplomacy!
lol again!
I guess this explains where all of those half dragons come from!
hehehehhee

That's about the funniest thing I've read all day.:smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin:

Half-Dragons... hee...

[Bassetking]

--->Why exactly is the Bard failing Diplomacy? At Lvl 20, getting a +59 modifier is not difficult for a basic Diplomat build. Under RAW, a final score of 50 turns anybody "helpful," and Diplomacy can be done with a -10 as a full round action.

Without any real concern for optimization, if the Bard is LVL 20, that's
23 skill ranks,
a conservative +8 CHA mod (20 with a +6 enhancer,)
Skill Focus (Diplomacy) for +3,
Negotioator for +2,
Half-elf for +2 (yes, Half-elf,)
+6 in synergy from Bluff, Sense Motive, and Know (Nobility,)
Greater Choker of Eloquence for +10,
UMD of "Divine Insight" (+8 insight bonus) cast up to 3 hours before,
+62 total, well under 100K spent. (Don't forget 1 skill point for Draconic.)

Even if the DM imposes a -20 circumstance mod (your Bard had dragon egg omlettes of that particular dragon in the morning for breakfast,) you've only got to roll a 3 to make the Dragon "friendly."

Refresh my memory, but wouldn't a +10 skill item of Diplomacy only run you 10k g? Also, would that bonus be the same modifier as the bonus granted by the choker of eloquence?

[Psykopig]

I know this reaches into some of the same wizard cheese with shivering touch but toss in some chameleon levels into your build and you can cast shivering touch as either divine or arcane.

[BardicDuelist]

Actually the choaker of eloquence gives +10 on diplomacy, bluff, and perform (any vocal).

I think a level 10 sublime chord could kill the tarresque (with a +50 perform check and song of cosmic fire doing damage equal to your perform check) and the ability to cast wish (twice if you'd like). So I don't think a dragon would be too challenging. I think the dragon's high Int would actually work against it in that the bard could even talk them into doing almost anything.

(Song of Cosmic Fire and Song of Timelessness are Sublime Chord songs. If you play bards, get Complete Arcane. The two best bard PrCs are in it.)

[The Prince of Cats]

What if you used the Giant's rules for Diplomacy? [link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../articles/jFppYwv7OUkegKhONNF.html)]

The bonus for Bardbarian's example drops to +58 due to lost synergy, the DC climbs to maybe 50. (15 + 20 (HD) + 5 (Wis of 20) + 5 (enemy) + 5 (unfavourable to let the bard live rather than adding those shiny magic items to the hoard))

1d20+58 vs. DC 50... Make the dragon a Nemesis whose very life is at stake if he lets the bard go. Still only another +10 to DC. You need to roll a 2 to succeed...

To be fair, the bard shouldn't ever end up fighting a dragon 1 to 1...


I guess this explains where all of those half dragons come from!
Yeah... Been there, done that...

[Wolf53226]

Pump Diplomacy. Admittedly, this would work better with a level of Binder and a level of Marshal, but even a pure Bard can easily beat the rushed diplomacy check to make the dragon his best friend.

JaronK


If you got a friend that would GIVE you a ton of gold and ask nothing in return...can you introduce me? While I know that the diplomacy rules by RAW are pretty broken, anyone you talk all the way up to helpful, is still not going to just give you all they own.

[jjpickar]

Thats what bluff is for. :smallsmile:

Bard: Would you be interested in this Pyramid scheme?

Dragon: All I have to do is get three friends to buy my products and they have to get three of their friends to buy their products and so on to double my wealth?

Bard: Yep. But you have to hurry, Investors are lining up quickly and I'll have to work hard to put you in the top tier.

Dragon: Here's my horde. Now All I have to do is find three friends who need candy bars and...wait what?

Bard: (long gone)

[Indon]

I love bards to death, but no way could they handle a dragon on their own. Unless they manage to sneak up and successfully use their fascinate ability to lull the dragon into non-action (which may not work), there isn't much they'll be able to accomplish. Even then, they've only lulled the dragon into non-action. Now what?


They can proceed to Suggest repeatedly.

"Hey, X epic character's out to kill you. You better head to Y city and get the jump on him before he comes by, eh pal?"

[Penguinizer]

1.Fascinate
2.Suggestion to make it believe its a fish
3.Dragon drowns itself.
4.???.
5.Profit.

[Indon]

1.Fascinate
2.Suggestion to make it believe its a fish
3.Dragon drowns itself.
4.???.
5.Profit.

Just so long as it's not one of those dragons who can live underwater.

Otherwise...

Fisherman: "Wow, I think I got one!"
*gets pulled underwater by line*
Bystander: "Damn. That's like, the fourth guy this week."

[Penguinizer]

1.Fascinate
2.Suggestion to think the dragon can breathe on the moon
3. Dragon teleports to the moon
4. Dragon suffocates
5.?????
6. Profit.

[Generic PC]

Unless its one of the Zombie Dragons that doesnt need air...
Naaah.

1.Fascinate
2.Suggestion to think the Dragon (if not Black, Copper or the other one...) can breath under water, or if Black/Copper/other one... that it has immunity to Element that is not Acid/Copper Dragons immunity/other... and that it should try out its newfound ability?
2a. Suggestion to think that another Dragon(which you know the name of) is planning to take its hoard. follow it and then take the hoard of the one that loses.
3. Watch ensuing Battle
4. ????
5. Profit... buy new Mswk Lute or something

[Amphimir Míriel]

Thats what bluff is for. :smallsmile:

Bard: Would you be interested in this Pyramid scheme?

Dragon: All I have to do is get three friends to buy my products and they have to get three of their friends to buy their products and so on to double my wealth?

Bard: Yep. But you have to hurry, Investors are lining up quickly and I'll have to work hard to put you in the top tier.

Dragon: Here's my horde. Now All I have to do is find three friends who need candy bars and...wait what?

Bard: (long gone)

Since I work in the touristic industry, my version would be:

Bard: Let me tell you about our new system of fraccional ownership dragon lairs... yadda yadda yadda [wink] yadda yadda yadda [promise] yadda yadda yadda [gross exageration] yadda yadda yadda...

Dragon: Wow, amazing... So this means that instead of spending the centuries in the same old lair, I can actually exchange lairs with other dragons every year?

Bard: Yes!! and all of our lairs have 2 full bedrooms and a kitchenette, so you can bring your entire brood!

Dragon: [Suddenly Doubtful] I dunno... it sounds very expensive... I did not become the famous Old Red Dragon (CR 20) that I am by giving away treasure, you know?

Bard: It is amazingly affordable! Even for an up and coming dragon like you!... yadda yadda yadda [wink] yadda yadda yadda [strange non-euclidean math] yadda yadda yadda [leaves certain details unmentioned]

Dragon: Really?? So you mean that I only have to give you a down payment of 30% of my hoard and I will be able to get it back by renting the property in one year???

Bard: Exactly!! This is the secret that all the Great Wyrms dont want you to know! By the way, did you know that Tiamat owns one of our memberships?

Dragon: She does??

Bard: Yes! she owns the highest level of membership, which you can access if you give me all of your hoard as down payment. I will personally help you rent the property so that you can get back your investment and pay the monthly charges without a problem!

Dragon: Sign me in!

Bard: [produces legal documents that would shame Asmodeus] Sign here... and here... here too... also here... [takes documents, puts them in his Handy Haversack] Congratulations my friend, you are really fortunate! Here, let me give you a little extra gift: your first vacation!
Here's your reservation confirmation sheet, you can fly off to your first vacation in the marvelous beaches of Seedytown!!

Dragon: Wow, thanks a lot!! Bye!

[Dragon flies off, towards a beach resort that definitely wont be up to his expectations, throughly convinced he has made the deal of the millenium.

The Bard casts message at the rest of the party, asking them to bring in the carts to haul off the treasure he now legally owns. He also reminds the party's wizard to start eating his hat in payment of their previous bet.]

[UglyPanda]

270k for three items that add +30 to bluff, diplomacy, and perform
Charisma boosted to 30 as the original poster described, for +10 to each
Masterwork instrument.
About 41% of WBL spent.

Diplomacy
+6 worth of synergy for diplomacy and max ranks for diplomacy
30+10+6+23=69

Bluff
quickened glibness cast
max ranks for bluff
30+10+23+30=93

Perform
max ranks for perform
skill focus(perform) gives +3
versatile performer gives +2
30+10+23+3+2=68

The spell "Improvisation" from Complete Adventurer allows you to add up to +2/level worth of bonus towards skill and/or attack rolls. The catch is you can only add either a half or a quarter (I can't honestly remember which) of that bonus per check until it is used up.

The bard doesn't have to kill the dragon, the bard simply has to convince the dragon that he owes him money.

Also, don't forget that adding +50 to the DC of a bluff check lets you make a free suggestion. A very old dragon with max ranks in sense motive has a +36 to sense motive. Add 5 using improvisation and you get:

Bard's 98 vs. Dragon's 86
After some calculations, a dragon will only have a 7% chance of sensing the truth.

At 105, a bard's bluff modifier makes if impossible for the dragon to be able to sense the truth, but that takes a feat investment to achieve.

[ocato]

The Bard casts message at the rest of the party, asking them to bring in the carts to haul off the treasure he now legally owns. He also reminds the party's wizard to start eating his hat in payment of their previous bet.]

That's good stuff. Make them eat those big floppy FF Tactics hats! (Well, technically FF3 hats I think, but Tactics was my favorite anyway)


...Damage equal to a perform check... to how many targets? What's the save?! WHY WASN'T I TOLD?! WHY WASN'T I TOLD?!

*sobs uncontrollably* This is gonna be so nasty.

[Mewtarthio]

Since I work in the touristic industry, my version would be:

Bard: Let me tell you about our new system of fraccional ownership dragon lairs... yadda yadda yadda [wink] yadda yadda yadda [promise] yadda yadda yadda [gross exageration] yadda yadda yadda...

Dragon: Wow, amazing... So this means that instead of spending the centuries in the same old lair, I can actually exchange lairs with other dragons every year?

Bard: Yes!! and all of our lairs have 2 full bedrooms and a kitchenette, so you can bring your entire brood!

Dragon: [Suddenly Doubtful] I dunno... it sounds very expensive... I did not become the famous Old Red Dragon (CR 20) that I am by giving away treasure, you know?

Bard: It is amazingly affordable! Even for an up and coming dragon like you!... yadda yadda yadda [wink] yadda yadda yadda [strange non-euclidean math] yadda yadda yadda [leaves certain details unmentioned]

Dragon: Really?? So you mean that I only have to give you a down payment of 30% of my hoard and I will be able to get it back by renting the property in one year???

Bard: Exactly!! This is the secret that all the Great Wyrms dont want you to know! By the way, did you know that Tiamat owns one of our memberships?

Dragon: She does??

Bard: Yes! she owns the highest level of membership, which you can access if you give me all of your hoard as down payment. I will personally help you rent the property so that you can get back your investment and pay the monthly charges without a problem!

Dragon: Sign me in!

Bard: [produces legal documents that would shame Asmodeus] Sign here... and here... here too... also here... [takes documents, puts them in his Handy Haversack] Congratulations my friend, you are really fortunate! Here, let me give you a little extra gift: your first vacation!
Here's your reservation confirmation sheet, you can fly off to your first vacation in the marvelous beaches of Seedytown!!

Dragon: Wow, thanks a lot!! Bye!

[Dragon flies off, towards a beach resort that definitely wont be up to his expectations, throughly convinced he has made the deal of the millenium.

The Bard casts message at the rest of the party, asking them to bring in the carts to haul off the treasure he now legally owns. He also reminds the party's wizard to start eating his hat in payment of their previous bet.]

Shortly thereafter...

Innocent Diviner: HELP! My feeble mortal flesh is being assaulted by a dragon!

Dragon: GIVE ME A SCROLL OF SCRYING OR I WILL EAT YOUR CHILDREN!

[Fishies]

Bard attempts diplomacy, failing.

Fail how? You're 20th level.

[Inyssius Tor]

Well, see, his buddy Paranoid Level-20 Wizard and Lord of the Great Wheel has pissed off... basically every god in the outer planes with his constant Contact Other Planes. Of course, they can't even think about touching the Over-Wizard ("Is any entity or non-entity going to think about harming me today?" "...muttermutter..." "Repeat your answer." "...Yes." "What is this entity most commonly called?"), so they engage in a bit of passive-aggression and saddle his adventuring companion with a -108 to all skills.

[Penguinizer]

Skill focus.

And Glibness for bluff. +30 on bluff checks and can surpass magical lie detection.

[JungeonJeff]

Well, see, his buddy Paranoid Level-20 Wizard and Lord of the Great Wheel has pissed off... basically every god in the outer planes with his constant Contact Other Planes. Of course, they can't even think about touching the Over-Wizard ("Is any entity or non-entity going to think about harming me today?" "...muttermutter..." "Repeat your answer." "...Yes." "What is this entity most commonly called?"), so they engage in a bit of passive-aggression and saddle his adventuring companion with a -108 to all skills.

So, basicly, if I can do anything as well as my wizard buddy (in a different approach ofc), i get nerfed?! -oh yeah, thats fair...:smallconfused:

-edit:

Oh yyeah, and what _if_ the wizard gets the name of said god? -then what? -he's just happy to know that he's gonna die at the hands of pretty Ehlonna, instead of Gruumsh? :P

[ocato]

Wizard: Ehlonna! Fear me, a mighty L20 Wizard! I'm scary, just read about it on the internet!
Ehlonna: *bzzap'd* 0\/\/ /\/3|) /\/00|3!
Wizard: No! Destroyed by that which gave me my true strength, popular internet opinion/l33tness!

[BardicDuelist]

That's good stuff. Make them eat those big floppy FF Tactics hats! (Well, technically FF3 hats I think, but Tactics was my favorite anyway)


...Damage equal to a perform check... to how many targets? What's the save?! WHY WASN'T I TOLD?! WHY WASN'T I TOLD?!

*sobs uncontrollably* This is gonna be so nasty.

To all targets in a 20ft radias. Reflex (20+CHA modifier) for half.

[Saint George]

Just so long as it's not one of those dragons who can live underwater.

Otherwise...

Fisherman: "Wow, I think I got one!"
*gets pulled underwater by line*
Bystander: "Damn. That's like, the fourth guy this week."

On a random side note, this is now how my dragon will get his snacks. Reverse fishing for the win.

[BardicDuelist]

Well I think it has been proven that bards don't suck, they just take a different approach. This is both mechanically (with the proper prestige classes) and RP wise (diplomacy, bluff).

Oh, and I'm surprised nobody mentioned the feats in Draconomicon.

[Penguinizer]

They can sing people out of existence!

[Thunder_Ranger]

Dang...with that much diplomacy, go to the nearest dragon with an opposed alighnment to what you're going up against and convince him to do the fighting. :smalltongue:

[ocato]

Since it's a song, I assume it's all enemies in a 20 foot radius, because all other bardic music effects I know of work that way. I mean, Inspire Courage is friends only and Haunting Melody is enemies only. But Cosmic Fire might have a flavor reason (like you're summoning a meteor with a song or something). I appreciate filling me in Bardic Duelist (and how do I join this Bard Defense League?) But honestly, how commonly is Sublime Chord banned for being overpowered? I mentioned this in another thread, but it seems like you're almost a full sorcerer+ a crazy space bard.

[HomerHT]

Bard v. Dragon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bard_the_Bowman

Bard wins :smallwink:

[BardicDuelist]

Bravo HomerHT, you were the first to get that reference I was attempting to make!
Gold Star!

[HomerHT]

I was honestly surprised we got to the second page without it coming up.

Glad to be of service.

[cupkeyk]

A lyric thaumaturge and a sublime chord can both access assay spell resistance and shivering touch. A half elf bard can force a single dragon a DC52+d20 will svae check or go under the effect of calm emotions. The bard can buff himself and cast assay resistance. Then he shivering touches the dragon into paralysis and coup de grace.

It's not hard.

[ocato]

You know what, I actually read up on all that lore again because I was considering playing Lotr Online. I can't believe I forgot.

[UglyPanda]

Sublime chord isn't overpowered. Ur-priest/Mystic theurge/Sublime Chords/Foluchan Lyricists are ridiculous though. You get level 9 spells 3 levels later than a wizard, so they had to add a few other abilities. One of them is song of cosmic fire which is basically a fireball spell that requires a skill check and one or two uses of bardic music(can't remember how much).