Do mundane fighters use "ki", unknowingly?

[djreynolds]

A cool thread was posted recently speculating about possible changes to 5E. It made some good talk.

Proposed was that martial classes would be using psionics. I know that this or magic being associated with the "good ole" fighter or rogue seems like blasphemy. At first I was put back a little. But I thought about it. Please hear me out.

In forgotten realms wiki, it says pscionics is also related to ki or the invisible arts as well as psionics. Now if a samurai or ninja was said to use ki, this is usually not considered to be a magical power, but rather a manifestation of a person's inner will. Though not psychic, in the terms of telepathy or telekinesis, it is a power from within. And we are okay with that?

Often we associate negatively, psionics as pseudo magical or "mutant" powers. I mean read comic book, you get bumped on the head and you get a special power. And we associate ki as a quasi magical ability. But is it?

So how do we classify a fighter's second wind, indomitable, or survivor skill? Is the ability magical, at least to a farmer or merchant watching it, it might be? Where does action derive from?

If these abilities are not fantastical and only result from years of training than why do they only happen once a day. Why is a champions critical hit always on? Are ki powers anymore spectacular than someone with a 20 strength military pressing 600lbs? Or someone action surging twice a day?

For a western medieval character how we classify the ability to jump farther, olympic feats? They may not be magical, but are awe inspiring. Where does this power originate from? DON'T LAUGH! But is it heart? I don't want to be the jerk who is credited with heart potions?

The ability to do some of these incredible feats of endurance are more than just physical attributes but mind over matter. Is that not "Ki".

So, psychic or psionic warriors aside, is it wrong to call what "mundane" fighters do ki based at least. It is special at least. Running a marathon, is more than just muscle or being fit, it is mind over matter.

[zinycor]

For me is all about flavor, 1 player will like to think that his fighter is able to use second wind because his character unknowingly uses ki, while another player will like to think that his character can use second wind just because he is awesome that way.

If fighters unknowingly using ki is nice with you and your players, awesome.

I don't think you should make it a hard rule or anything, it's just flavor.

[KorvinStarmast]

I don't want to be the jerk who is credited with heart potions? Don't be that guy, for sure. :smallbiggrin:

Comment: the setting for 5e is a bit beyond European Medieval. It keeps monks, who have been in the game since OD&D Blackmoor. The monk was inspired by a fanciful version of Shao Lin temple monks like Kwai Chang Caine of the 1970's TV show "Kung Fu."

D&D includes Oni, which were once called Ogre Magi on OD&D and early AD&D. These monsters were are derived from a Japanese mythical monster.

The diversity of races and monsters that have been folded into the forgotten realms base world has already changed the setting, expanding it from the trope of the Medieval European base. I'll offer it as being almost global medieval versus European Medieval setting. This provides more flavor and settings for heroic adventures. There was a book of Arabian adventures, inspired in part by the Arabian Nights / Sinbad the Sailor // Thief of Baghdad family of myths and legends. I think that was a 1e publication, but it might have been 2e. Giant Roc's have been in the game since I can remember playing it, listed in Monsters and Treasures. Djinns and Efreets: not really European Medieval, more Sinbad and Aladdin.

Last but not least: Bahamut and Tiamat well predate medieval Europe, being mythical beings from much older cultures.

[Giant2005]

It is clearly a result of spiral power.

[Ralanr]

It is clearly a result of spiral power.
Another word for awesome, the power source that brings martials with all there might.

[Janus]

For what it's worth, I recently played a monk, but flavored him as a Western monk. Had a tonsure, wore brown robes, ministered to people, and knew how to whap people with the big stick he carried around.
What did I do with ki? I just called it stamina.

Granted, as a martial artist myself, I'm a bit biased against the very concept of ki as some mystical energy or something.

[Ralanr]

For what it's worth, I recently played a monk, but flavored him as a Western monk. Had a tonsure, wore brown robes, ministered to people, and knew how to whap people with the big stick he carried around.
What did I do with ki? I just called it stamina.

Granted, as a martial artist myself, I'm a bit biased against the very concept of ki as some mystical energy or something.

I'd imagine ki is about as mystical as magic, which isn't actually that mystical. Funny thing I've figured about magic in D&D, it's a natural phenomenon in the world.

How it's used though is a lot like plastic and oil. We twist it to an unnatural form.

[1Forge]

It could be they kinda use it, kinda how some mages use spirits without seeing them, fighters pure discipline could work like a wizards discipline (they use theirs to chuck fireballs after all), but i'd say that their level of discipline has affected their soul, allowing a new level of determination or something, second wind migfht not heal actual cuts and burns, but it could represent your body ignoring the pain completely. I'd allow it, it could also explain why farmers can turn into adventurers more powerfull then guardsmen who've trained their whole lives, PC's could just be more in tune with themselves or something.

[Vogonjeltz]

A cool thread was posted recently speculating about possible changes to 5E. It made some good talk.

Proposed was that martial classes would be using psionics. I know that this or magic being associated with the "good ole" fighter or rogue seems like blasphemy. At first I was put back a little. But I thought about it. Please hear me out.

In forgotten realms wiki, it says pscionics is also related to ki or the invisible arts as well as psionics. Now if a samurai or ninja was said to use ki, this is usually not considered to be a magical power, but rather a manifestation of a person's inner will. Though not psychic, in the terms of telepathy or telekinesis, it is a power from within. And we are okay with that?

Often we associate negatively, psionics as pseudo magical or "mutant" powers. I mean read comic book, you get bumped on the head and you get a special power. And we associate ki as a quasi magical ability. But is it?

So how do we classify a fighter's second wind, indomitable, or survivor skill? Is the ability magical, at least to a farmer or merchant watching it, it might be? Where does action derive from?

If these abilities are not fantastical and only result from years of training than why do they only happen once a day. Why is a champions critical hit always on? Are ki powers anymore spectacular than someone with a 20 strength military pressing 600lbs? Or someone action surging twice a day?

For a western medieval character how we classify the ability to jump farther, olympic feats? They may not be magical, but are awe inspiring. Where does this power originate from? DON'T LAUGH! But is it heart? I don't want to be the jerk who is credited with heart potions?

The ability to do some of these incredible feats of endurance are more than just physical attributes but mind over matter. Is that not "Ki".

So, psychic or psionic warriors aside, is it wrong to call what "mundane" fighters do ki based at least. It is special at least. Running a marathon, is more than just muscle or being fit, it is mind over matter.

Depends on how you want to portray it I suppose.

Since the world is not populated by Player Characters, making the Fighter basically a demi-god superhuman compared to those around him, I like to fluff it as a manifestation of his ultimately divine nature.

Extra Attack for example, like in The Runelords, allows the Fighter to attack far faster than any mortal (4 times faster!) and when combined with action surge enables a burst of activity 8x as fast as a mundane person. Even a Wizard augmented with magical haste isn't acting as quickly, the Fighter is just that fast.

Or we could interpret the abilities as they're presented, second wind is ...someone getting their second wind. Hit points don't model actual blood, it's a representation of someone's luck, stamina, vigor, etc... their ability to keep fighting. A Champion with Survivor is the kind of person who is extremely hard to kill, who just keeps getting back up everytime they're knocked down.

Think of every knockdown drag-out fight you've seen in a movie. The guy who took forever to punch out, that guy is a survivor.

examples:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Determinator
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WhyWontYouDie

I wouldn't call it supernatural, just heroic.

[djreynolds]

I only ask, because initially when I read the other thread, I was tuned off by psionics. Perhaps it's just the word. But fighters can do special things, without magic. I know I might be a bad idea to classify it other than heroic, which is a good term. But it just made me look at the other thread in a better light.

I think fighters pride themselves on "going it alone" and no magic or divine power is gonna help them or stop them. It's a very Han Solo approach which appeals to Everyman. But mechanically for game purposes I can see why labels "could" be used.

[Ralanr]

I still think the panache/grit system in pathfinder for swashbucklers and gunslingers is what people are looking for.

It functions the same way as ki, but the abilities are not the same as a ki user.

[Psyren]

I still think the panache/grit system in pathfinder for swashbucklers and gunslingers is what people are looking for.

It functions the same way as ki, but the abilities are not the same as a ki user.

Or Combat Stamina from PF Unchained.

But yeah, I would think that in a magical world, any sufficiently skilled fighter would eventually access that natural force on an instinctive level, and pick up a few supernatural abilities. 5e may not call them that but the principle is the same. And because they are not the regimented, formulaic manipulation that a spell represents, they can't be unraveled by a dispel.

[Bubzors]

It is clearly a result of spiral power.

Just who the hell do you think I am?

My drill is the drill to pierce the heavens!

[SharkForce]

i would not advise labeling it ki.

just let them do impossible things, and don't even draw attention to the fact that the things they're doing impossible. the fighter wants to grapple a storm giant? sure, he grabs it by the heel and by superior technique manages to twist the giant's ankle in such a way that the giant can't move, and can even be dragged around. no need to discuss that the fighter simply doesn't have enough mass, strength, leverage, etc to do it. just let it happen and move on.

bam, suddenly the fighter got a whole lot awesome because we told physics to shut up for them the way they do for wizards, but we never once said the fighter was doing it magically or supernaturally or using psionics or ki or anything. they just did what they did, we all know it wouldn't have been possible in the real world, but as long as we don't make that a central focus we can just ignore it and carry on with our lives.

instead, we have fighters limited to grappling large creatures, because we all know you can't wrestle with an elephant, it just isn't possible. sure, that's more realistic, but i'd much rather be in a game where fighters are just such amazing warriors that the elephant is the one who has to worry about grapple checks from the fighter.

[djreynolds]

i would not advise labeling it ki.

just let them do impossible things, and don't even draw attention to the fact that the things they're doing impossible. the fighter wants to grapple a storm giant? sure, he grabs it by the heel and by superior technique manages to twist the giant's ankle in such a way that the giant can't move, and can even be dragged around. no need to discuss that the fighter simply doesn't have enough mass, strength, leverage, etc to do it. just let it happen and move on.

bam, suddenly the fighter got a whole lot awesome because we told physics to shut up for them the way they do for wizards, but we never once said the fighter was doing it magically or supernaturally or using psionics or ki or anything. they just did what they did, we all know it wouldn't have been possible in the real world, but as long as we don't make that a central focus we can just ignore it and carry on with our lives.

instead, we have fighters limited to grappling large creatures, because we all know you can't wrestle with an elephant, it just isn't possible. sure, that's more realistic, but i'd much rather be in a game where fighters are just such amazing warriors that the elephant is the one who has to worry about grapple checks from the fighter.

I think you're right, labelling it ki, would drive off some gamers. Best not to fix what is not broken.

[Ralanr]

I think you're right, labelling it ki, would drive off some gamers. Best not to fix what is not broken.

Panache and Grit.

If you wanted to use such a system, but don't want to call it Ki, call it something less supernatural and have the abilities be not obviously supernatural fluff wise, but no different from the supernatural ability mechanically.

Or is this a bad idea?

[djreynolds]

No I like it. Panache for rogue, and grit for fighter. Yeah that's good. You could get so many grit points per level or something like that.

[Ralanr]

No I like it. Panache for rogue, and grit for fighter. Yeah that's good. You could get so many grit points per level or something like that.

It would probably be introduced through a subclass if not a fighter/rogue rework in general for 5e. If not then maybe as an idea in 6th. I never got to play the pathfinder swashbuckler, but the panache system made the class seem very fun.

[Psyren]

i would not advise labeling it ki.

just let them do impossible things, and don't even draw attention to the fact that the things they're doing impossible. the fighter wants to grapple a storm giant? sure, he grabs it by the heel and by superior technique manages to twist the giant's ankle in such a way that the giant can't move, and can even be dragged around. no need to discuss that the fighter simply doesn't have enough mass, strength, leverage, etc to do it. just let it happen and move on.

Well, I would say he SHOULD have enough Strength. But once he does, yeah, leverage/mass/surface area etc either shouldn't matter at all or should just be represented by soft penalties that can be overcome.

But PF already does this, you can grapple anything regardless of size if you're strong enough. Not sure about how 5e handles it.

[SharkForce]

Well, I would say he SHOULD have enough Strength. But once he does, yeah, leverage/mass/surface area etc either shouldn't matter at all or should just be represented by soft penalties that can be overcome.

But PF already does this, you can grapple anything regardless of size if you're strong enough. Not sure about how 5e handles it.

one size larger maximum.

and no, he shouldn't have enough strength, realistically. that giant weighs an awful lot more than the fighter could ever hope to pick up. most likely the giant's *leg* weighs more than the fighter could ever hope to pick up in 5e.

the fighter's strength matters for the skill check, certainly, but the fighter will not realistically have anywhere near enough strength to wrestle a giant.

but like i said, i'd rather be in a game that says "i don't care if the fighter shouldn't be able to, everyone else gets to do awesome things so the fighter can be awesome enough to wrestle the giant".

i wouldn't charge any resources, either. i mean, you could, but the fighter's resource manangement should mostly deal with actions available, and hit points, imo.

[Psyren]

the fighter's strength matters for the skill check, certainly, but the fighter will not realistically have anywhere near enough strength to wrestle a giant.

Biologically, of course not. But once you establish that magic can raise strength, that goes out the window entirely. Hell, they call it a Belt of Giant Strength, implying it can make you as strong as a giant. Shouldn't a giant be able to pick up another giant?

And assuming your post above is accurate, I find it unfortunate that 5e brought back hard size limits to grapple.



i wouldn't charge any resources, either. i mean, you could, but the fighter's resource manangement should mostly deal with actions available, and hit points, imo.

I'm fine with resources for Fighter as long as they are not per day. Per encounter is perfectly acceptable, and that's exactly what Stamina and ToB do.

[Ralanr]

Pathfinder also has 2 spreadsheets for grappling.

[Psyren]

I was pointing out that in a supernatural world, martial characters gaining supernatural abilities on an instinctive level is not farfetched. Call it something other than "ki" to make it more palatable if you wish, but the concept is still the same. In addition, martial characters who enhance their physical prowess by supernatural means should be able to surpass normal physical limits - such as being able to wrestle giants and dragons.

I only brought up Pathfinder to point out that these approaches are possible there, and I see no reason why they can't be the case in 5e also. They just make sense.

Speaking of which...


Pathfinder also has 2 spreadsheets for grappling.

It's one roll (CMB vs. CMD) and then a few sentences explaining what you can and can't do. I don't see any spreadsheets in my CRB, and even if there were, that has nothing to do with arbitrary size limits on grappling. Anyone can overcomplicate something if they set their mind to doing so.

[Ralanr]

It's one roll (CMB vs. CMD) and then a few sentences explaining what you can and can't do. I don't see any spreadsheets in my CRB, and even if there were, that has nothing to do with arbitrary size limits on grappling. Anyone can overcomplicate something if they set their mind to doing so.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Grapple

These are on the pathfinder srd. There are probably other ways of grappling, but I prefer 5e's take on grappling.

[Psyren]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Grapple

These are on the pathfinder srd.

That is a fansite, and those flowcharts were put together for the folks who might be more visual and thus have trouble with the rules text.

It's a good fansite of course, but there are no charts in the actual rulebook (nor do they really need any.)


There are probably other ways of grappling, but I prefer 5e's take on grappling.

And I'm sure it's streamlined (like much else in 5e) but if there truly is a size limit regardless of your strength that is what I consider to be unnecessary.

[Ralanr]

That is a fansite, and those flowcharts were put together for the folks who might be more visual and thus have trouble with the rules text.

It's a good fansite of course, but there are no charts in the actual rulebook (nor do they really need any.)



And I'm sure it's streamlined (like much else in 5e) but if there truly is a size limit regardless of your strength that is what I consider to be unnecessary.

Probably. My group used that site for all our info when we played pathfinder. Just having class info easily accessible was a lifesaver

[ThermalSlapShot]

A cool thread was posted recently speculating about possible changes to 5E. It made some good talk.

Proposed was that martial classes would be using psionics. I know that this or magic being associated with the "good ole" fighter or rogue seems like blasphemy. At first I was put back a little. But I thought about it. Please hear me out.

In forgotten realms wiki, it says pscionics is also related to ki or the invisible arts as well as psionics. Now if a samurai or ninja was said to use ki, this is usually not considered to be a magical power, but rather a manifestation of a person's inner will. Though not psychic, in the terms of telepathy or telekinesis, it is a power from within. And we are okay with that?

Often we associate negatively, psionics as pseudo magical or "mutant" powers. I mean read comic book, you get bumped on the head and you get a special power. And we associate ki as a quasi magical ability. But is it?

So how do we classify a fighter's second wind, indomitable, or survivor skill? Is the ability magical, at least to a farmer or merchant watching it, it might be? Where does action derive from?

If these abilities are not fantastical and only result from years of training than why do they only happen once a day. Why is a champions critical hit always on? Are ki powers anymore spectacular than someone with a 20 strength military pressing 600lbs? Or someone action surging twice a day?

For a western medieval character how we classify the ability to jump farther, olympic feats? They may not be magical, but are awe inspiring. Where does this power originate from? DON'T LAUGH! But is it heart? I don't want to be the jerk who is credited with heart potions?

The ability to do some of these incredible feats of endurance are more than just physical attributes but mind over matter. Is that not "Ki".

So, psychic or psionic warriors aside, is it wrong to call what "mundane" fighters do ki based at least. It is special at least. Running a marathon, is more than just muscle or being fit, it is mind over matter.

It is less that they will use Psionics and more that they should go the route of Arcane Magic, Divine Magic, and Psionics. Then make martial options from each so you can have your Eldritch Knight, Paladin, and Battle Master. This way we have a sense of consistency within the game and no one gets the short end of the stick.

Because this is the only way to put everyone on equal grounds and we can move past the issues that have plague the system. If we can move past the fact that there are *haves* and *haves nots* then we can grow the system. There wasn't a lot of energy wasted during 4e trying to make the martials on oar with the casters, at least not until Essentials came out. People playing the game (again it did great up until Essentials) was quite peaceful between each other when it came to a lot of things and the real issues came from people who preferred 3e, wouldn't even try 4e, or give it a fair shot as a new edition of d&d.

It was very very very nice :). I want 5e to have that. The discussions weren't about balance or fixing things but about how to make new things, gets builds to work, and why there could be a vampire who took the vampire class with the vampire background.

Since the issue starts at level 8 to 12 with when martials start to become repetitive, this is the levels in which they could awaken their ki/psionic/whatever you want to call it power source.

The issue isn't that martials can keep doing damage but they just do the same thing they did at low level while they are level 15, just doing more of *level 2* is still being *level 2*. Psionics can allow martials to not just be doing level 2 stuff at higher levels.


However to your question. Yes, currently Fighters use Ki. Indomitable, Action Surge, and Battle Master Maneuvers are all essentially Ki based.

The Rogue not that much though, all of their features are at-will/non-magic limited until you hit stroke of luck, then they tap into Psionics.

Barbarian rage could be Psionics, putting their mental state in a way that changes their very body.

Tome of Battle is now my favorite 3e Psionic splat book. At least that's how I'm going to look at it for now on. :smallbiggrin:

[Ralanr]

Barbarian rage might just be a more accurate adrenaline surge than fighter action surge.

I'm not against giving martials a resource system, and my previous arguments towards psionics may have been fueled by personal bias (I still don't think psionics will replace it. Cause if they do it doesn't solve the issue since the psion, who devotes all their focus to psionics and is a caster, would be better than the guys who use it to keep up physically).

I think a martial resource system should not have a full caster variant. That way they wouldn't be outshined by a full caster of their own resource. By full caster, I mean anything like a wizard. Technically a fighter would be a full caster with the resource, but I think that's intended.

[ThermalSlapShot]

Barbarian rage might just be a more accurate adrenaline surge than fighter action surge.

I'm not against giving martials a resource system, and my previous arguments towards psionics may have been fueled by personal bias (I still don't think psionics will replace it. Cause if they do it doesn't solve the issue since the psion, who devotes all their focus to psionics and is a caster, would be better than the guys who use it to keep up physically).

I think a martial resource system should not have a full caster variant. That way they wouldn't be outshined by a full caster of their own resource. By full caster, I mean anything like a wizard. Technically a fighter would be a full caster with the resource, but I think that's intended.

Well you can have a resource system for Psionics that doesn't follow the Arcane and Divine magic system.

4e Psionics is perhaps the best way to do it. At-will basic abilities that can be upgraded via Ki/Power Points/Whatever.

Then have some other abilities that can also use your ki/power points/whatever on.

[Ralanr]

Well you can have a resource system for Psionics that doesn't follow the Arcane and Divine magic system.

4e Psionics is perhaps the best way to do it. At-will basic abilities that can be upgraded via Ki/Power Points/Whatever.

Then have some other abilities that can also use your ki/power points/whatever on.

The problem with the psionics system is not within its mechanics but its flavor. You lock out a massive crowd when you force people to choose between only divine, arcane, or psionic. The reason the current doesn't do that for psionics or mental power lovers is that magic, both arcane and divine (which is also only different in fluff alone) can simulate psychic powers.

While at will abilities are interesting, it makes the game too mmo like. Mmos aren't bad, but they aren't D&D.

Maybe the D&D system problems are too deep within the core to change. Maybe not. I think 5e is a great step for it to take.

[ThermalSlapShot]

The problem with the psionics system is not within its mechanics but its flavor. You lock out a massive crowd when you force people to choose between only divine, arcane, or psionic. The reason the current doesn't do that for psionics or mental power lovers is that magic, both arcane and divine (which is also only different in fluff alone) can simulate psychic powers.

While at will abilities are interesting, it makes the game too mmo like. Mmos aren't bad, but they aren't D&D.

Maybe the D&D system problems are too deep within the core to change. Maybe not. I think 5e is a great step for it to take.

The flavor of Psionics is pretty dang close to what the Fighter does anyways.

They try really hard and push themselves and without Arcane/Divine Magic they perform extraordinary exploits that normal people can't do.

The biggest issue is that people either complain that martials can't keep up or that the fluff is wrong. But they don't want to give martials anything good. People think martials have to be normal people,

Either retool the idea of martials or the idea of Psionics *shrug*

[Ralanr]

The flavor of Psionics is pretty dang close to what the Fighter does anyways.

They try really hard and push themselves and without Arcane/Divine Magic they perform extraordinary exploits that normal people can't do.

The biggest issue is that people either complain that martials can't keep up or that the fluff is wrong. But they don't want to give martials anything good. People think martials have to be normal people,

Either retool the idea of martials or the idea of Psionics *shrug*

1. How?
2. Martials aren't normal people. Not at high level.

Do they seem easier to master compared to the arcane arts? Sure.
If they were normal, then villagers would never hire adventurers to deal with threats because they could deal with it themselves.

You're comparing a trained soldier is the same as someone who has no combat training.

If the only difference is the knowledge they attain, then casters are just as normal.

The only ones that aren't are people with in-born powers. Which in my experience, psionics are.

[Warwick]

2. Martials aren't normal people. Not at high level.

They're not really normal people at any level. I think what ThermalSlapShot is getting at, though, is that people are often reluctant to allow martial characters to do really overtly impossible/extraordinary things because they limit them to things they could imagine a really capable human doing. E.g. attacking 8 times in the space of six seconds is extraordinary - even more so if you presume that each attack is more than one swing of a sword/axe/fun noodle - but it's within the conceptual space of what a lot of people could imagine someone 'mundane' doing. Conversely, balancing on the surface of the water, jumping across the Grand Canyon, or sprinting so fast it might as well be short-ranged teleportation generally aren't, even if you are positing a world where being sufficiently badass lets you do the impossible.

In other words, for many people, their vision of a high-level martial character is someone like Aragorn or Logen Ninefingers instead of, say, Zaraki Kenpachi or Hercules or someone similarly over the top. Whether or not that is an issue is a matter of opinion, I suppose.


The biggest issue is that people either complain that martials can't keep up or that the fluff is wrong. But they don't want to give martials anything good. People think martials have to be normal people,

To be fair, I think these comments come from different groups of people, mostly. People complaining that martial characters can't keep up usually aren't the same people who think martials ought to be limited to 'peak human capability' or similar constraints.

[djreynolds]

I think I understand everyone's honest take on this and thanks ahead for you candor and insights.

For many of us the fighter and simple thief really allow us to feel as if we ourselves are in the game, and all crazy Olympic types acts of strength aside, that we could be that " fighting man" who lives by his own wits and moxy.

But Mr Slapshot put it very concisely, a high level fighter is only keeping track of his 3 attacks. Everyone else has all these choices and options, instead of " I attack ".

Psionic carries with it, unnecessarily, a negative connotation that has the same affect magic has, that it is unnatural and has nothing to do with this crusty fighter who uses his wits and strength of arms to triumph and damm Krom.

But for me, it is just simply quantifying that your inner courage or grit or panache " could be" a trackable feat and thus allow that simple fighter more options.

I know, me included, that from a roleplaying aspect I'm gonna illustrate moves and attacks during combat. But if I could define " courage" or " grit " it could give you powers that you could access that don't have to be magical or divinely inspired. It comes from inside, call it being " clutch". It just gives that fighter options like wizard but not magical. It gives you a way to really illustrate just how much you got left in your tank halfway in a battle. "How does Rocky go 15 rounds?" Its all courage, but it gives options if you had "grit" points.

[Cazero]

My problem with psionics/ki fighters :
If you give a fighter any ability that cannot be done with strength and wits alone, you no longer have a 'pure' fighter, you have multiclassing or a sublcass. If you don't, fluffing his supernatural stamina as psionics/ki is pointless and makes him weaker since it can now be blocked/nullified by some supernatural countermojo.

Fighter fluff is nothing like psionic fluff. A psion is able to manifest his mind on the physical world. Even without spell slots or psy points, the psion fluff would be that he use 'psychic' to swing faster and harder and weakens his enemies. A real fighter doesn't need that for the same results, he's just that good.

If you think high level fighters needs to become psionic but that rogues are 'just fine', you got some explaining to do. Rogue 'sixth sense' stuff is borderline prescience and far closer to psionic than having enough willpower to keep going.

[ThermalSlapShot]

My problem with psionics/ki fighters :
If you give a fighter any ability that cannot be done with strength and wits alone, you no longer have a 'pure' fighter, you have multiclassing or a sublcass. If you don't, fluffing his supernatural stamina as psionics/ki is pointless and makes him weaker since it can now be blocked/nullified by some supernatural countermojo.


That's the thing though.

Sure you don't have a pure mundane Fighter.

But you have a pure Fantasy Fighter who is made to fit in with the game and other PCs.

The Fighter that is mundane, such as the 5e Fighter, doesn't fit into this fantasy game well enough. Thus you have the 3e arguments of balance and optimization to get them to do something other than *move and hit*.

As a PC class they are an outlier, they are so mundane that they don't fit. You need to allow them to be fantasy or else you will have this issue time and time again.

If you bring the Fighter, Rogue, and Barbarian into the realm of high fantasy in a world of low fantasy then they fit in with the other PC classes.

And then every PC class will stick out like a sore thumb and not fit within the fantasy world in which has been created by wotc.

[Cazero]

That's the thing though.

Sure you don't have a pure mundane Fighter.

But you have a pure Fantasy Fighter who is made to fit in with the game and other PCs.

Name three things that a Fantasy fighter should be able to do with class features that the 5e fighter lacks and maybe I'll understand what you mean by mundane.

The 'psionics' answer you provide completely denature the class in my opinion. It can't be the solution to any balance and gameplay problem the fighter have, because it would remove the problem instead of solving it.

[ThermalSlapShot]

Name three things that a Fantasy fighter should be able to do with class features that the 5e fighter lacks and maybe I'll understand what you mean by mundane.

The 'psionics' answer you provide completely denature the class in my opinion. It can't be the solution to any balance and gameplay problem the fighter have, because it would remove the problem instead of solving it.

Have effective options outside of *move and hit with a metal stick*

Grow in what they can do. Currently a Fighter at levels 16-20 has the same options as a Fighter does at level 1-5. They just do *mundane* more times... More mundane is just mundane.

Be able to do things that push the imagination. Fantasy is about pushing the imagination and doing things that are impossible.

As it is now, everything a Fighter can do is what anyone can do, the fighter just does some things more times. Anyone can make the attack action, anyone can attempt a saving throw, anyone can wear Armor, and anyone can *move and damage*.

How about a Fighter that is special? One that can do something no one else can attempt?

Normal commoners can't even attempt to cast sells. Sure maybe cantrips, but they never get the ability to cast even the low level Spells. And the higher level Spells? Forget it. It may take extra time, but a commoner CAN attack 4 times. It may take some time but that commoner will get off 4 attacks. Commoners can never get off a Spell, they can't even ATTEMPT to get those Spells off.

[Ralanr]

The flavor of Psionics is pretty dang close to what the Fighter does anyways.

They try really hard and push themselves and without Arcane/Divine Magic they perform extraordinary exploits that normal people can't do.


What are psionics to you? Because I don't see the similarity.


Have effective options outside of *move and hit with a metal stick*

Grow in what they can do. Currently a Fighter at levels 16-20 has the same options as a Fighter does at level 1-5. They just do *mundane* more times... More mundane is just mundane.

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/a4/a43aec536d26d8488ebcd107e02ab57907dc2c1a8a1b3a184b fa923a0a04ccb9.jpg

Let's look up some definitions of "Mundane"

(In the order I want to talk about)
1. of this earthly world rather than a heavenly or spiritual one.

Now by this definition, magic is actually mundane. Wanna know why? Because magic is a natural force in those settings (Most of them. Not Dark Sun). Magic is a part of the world, like fossils are to ours. The product we make however is considered unnatural or dangerous to the world, kinda like oil.
Now I could be wrong, but it doesn't relate to the stronger point: So what. :smallamused:
There are lots of people who prefer to play without magic or similar stuff. Not just in the D&D community, but in the gaming community as a whole. Wanna know why? Relates to the other definition.

2.lacking interest or excitement; dull.
Because we don't use the word mundane when describing our characters. We use words like, "Normal" "Not magical." and of course, "Badass"
We describe our characters as badass because they have fight the same things as powerful magic users, with nothing but their wits, determination, and that *sharp metal stick* (Weapons may vary). And they still come out victorious.

These aren't mundane to us. These characters are imaginary, they're extraordinary, and most of all, they are fun to us.

Of course they won't be fun to everyone, just like how wizards aren't fun for everyone and the same goes for psionics. It's a personal preference. The fluff is important. Mechanics are too, as you can tell from all the attempts to make a thug rogue subclass.


Be able to do things that push the imagination. Fantasy is about pushing the imagination and doing things that are impossible.

Considering a level 20 fighter can hit up to four times in under 6 seconds, and up to 12 times in the same amount of time, I have a hard time understanding what you think is possible.


As it is now, everything a Fighter can do is what anyone can do, the fighter just does some things more times. Anyone can make the attack action, anyone can attempt a saving throw, anyone can wear Armor, and anyone can *move and damage*.

Have you played the 5e fighter? If you're talking about champion, then sure. Champions do physical things better than everyone else, that's kinda what makes him/her a champion. Ever look at battlemaster? See all those maneuvers that no class can do? And they have the "Know your enemy" ability, which has the DM tell you if they are superior or inferior in things like stats, AC, HP, or Levels. WHAT ELSE DOES THAT?

Also, on doing the things more times? I'm pretty sure that's the side effect of being a specialist in a field. Wanna know what classes come close to hitting as much as the fighter with built in class features? Barbarian, Monk, Paladin, and Ranger. Not rogue, the other martial class.

"But wait" you're probably thinking, what about Valor bards, War Clerics, and Blade Warlocks? *cracks knuckles*

Valor bards are flavored as following the stories of great warriors and heroes. So they are influenced by the very martials you claim are boring.
War Clerics have to use their bonus action to make another attack if they attacked, and they can only do it to a max of five times. So the guys who devote themselves to war gods have a limited version of two weapon fighting.
Bladelocks? They need an invocation to attack twice. Otherwise known as, magic! If it's so easy that anyone can do it, why would they need magic to even hit twice in under 6 seconds.

And before saying, "There's a feat to give a maneuver and superiority die, so it's not special" Just know that there are two feats that give access to magic. Magic Initiate and Ritual caster. Magic is special you say? If feats are allowed, not as freaking much.


How about a Fighter that is special? One that can do something no one else can attempt?

Refer to the above response to the previous quote. TL;DR? Battlemaster :smallannoyed:


Normal commoners can't even attempt to cast sells. Sure maybe cantrips, but they never get the ability to cast even the low level Spells. And the higher level Spells? Forget it. It may take extra time, but a commoner CAN attack 4 times. It may take some time but that commoner will get off 4 attacks. Commoners can never get off a Spell, they can't even ATTEMPT to get those Spells off.

What do you think a wizard apprentice is before being an apprentice? A commoner. A DM can give commoners spells, nothing in the MM is written in stone. Heck it's encouraged to alter things. If the commoners are drow or tieflings, then you can bet your butt that they'll be able to cast spells. Extremely limited and might need to be leveled, but it's not impossible. All of that is up to the DM, just like all NPC's.


There are lots of reasons why psionics aren't going to replace martials. But only one really matters. That person who charges the dragon with the big sharp metal stick? That's a story archetype so deep into human imagination that it's older than dirt. Gilgamesh, Beowulf, Cuchulain, these are fighters. Sure we can't make them proper in 5e, sure they push beyond human limits. But they are doing it without magic (Gilgamesh is 1/3rd god...which is impossible. But Enkidu, his best bud was fully human. That guy kept up with him on equal level) and it's described as physical power and sheer determination.

There will always be the nonmagical person in these stories, the person who goes forward with nothing but their wits. They aren't always the strongest, but they are there. Heck the pychic warrior of darksun is about as mundane as the fighter, because it's considered abnormal to not have psionics of any kind there.

Predict all you want, but this is something that will never happen. Martials may change over and over again, but they will always be there, and they'll always be in the core for each edition of D&D. Even if psions are in the core book, the Fighter will always be a few pages ahead.

Now I'm not a smart person, as can be told with how much I just tend to argue with you. But you've never explained what psionics are suppose to do, instead you bash martials with mundane as though it's a swear word. You wanna try and convince people on your idea? Stop dissing what people like and start explaining your point.

If you don't know the difference, then learn.

[ThermalSlapShot]

What are psionics to you? Because I don't see the similarity.



http://www.quickmeme.com/img/a4/a43aec536d26d8488ebcd107e02ab57907dc2c1a8a1b3a184b fa923a0a04ccb9.jpg

Let's look up some definitions of "Mundane"

(In the order I want to talk about)
1. of this earthly world rather than a heavenly or spiritual one.

Now by this definition, magic is actually mundane. Wanna know why? Because magic is a natural force in those settings (Most of them. Not Dark Sun). Magic is a part of the world, like fossils are to ours. The product we make however is considered unnatural or dangerous to the world, kinda like oil.
Now I could be wrong, but it doesn't relate to the stronger point: So what. :smallamused:
There are lots of people who prefer to play without magic or similar stuff. Not just in the D&D community, but in the gaming community as a whole. Wanna know why? Relates to the other definition.

2.lacking interest or excitement; dull.
Because we don't use the word mundane when describing our characters. We use words like, "Normal" "Not magical." and of course, "Badass"
We describe our characters as badass because they have fight the same things as powerful magic users, with nothing but their wits, determination, and that *sharp metal stick* (Weapons may vary). And they still come out victorious.

These aren't mundane to us. These characters are imaginary, they're extraordinary, and most of all, they are fun to us.

Of course they won't be fun to everyone, just like how wizards aren't fun for everyone and the same goes for psionics. It's a personal preference. The fluff is important. Mechanics are too, as you can tell from all the attempts to make a thug rogue subclass.



Considering a level 20 fighter can hit up to four times in under 6 seconds, and up to 12 times in the same amount of time, I have a hard time understanding what you think is possible.



Have you played the 5e fighter? If you're talking about champion, then sure. Champions do physical things better than everyone else, that's kinda what makes him/her a champion. Ever look at battlemaster? See all those maneuvers that no class can do? And they have the "Know your enemy" ability, which has the DM tell you if they are superior or inferior in things like stats, AC, HP, or Levels. WHAT ELSE DOES THAT?

Also, on doing the things more times? I'm pretty sure that's the side effect of being a specialist in a field. Wanna know what classes come close to hitting as much as the fighter with built in class features? Barbarian, Monk, Paladin, and Ranger. Not rogue, the other martial class.

"But wait" you're probably thinking, what about Valor bards, War Clerics, and Blade Warlocks? *cracks knuckles*

Valor bards are flavored as following the stories of great warriors and heroes. So they are influenced by the very martials you claim are boring.
War Clerics have to use their bonus action to make another attack if they attacked, and they can only do it to a max of five times. So the guys who devote themselves to war gods have a limited version of two weapon fighting.
Bladelocks? They need an invocation to attack twice. Otherwise known as, magic! If it's so easy that anyone can do it, why would they need magic to even hit twice in under 6 seconds.

And before saying, "There's a feat to give a maneuver and superiority die, so it's not special" Just know that there are two feats that give access to magic. Magic Initiate and Ritual caster. Magic is special you say? If feats are allowed, not as freaking much.



Refer to the above response to the previous quote. TL;DR? Battlemaster :smallannoyed:



What do you think a wizard apprentice is before being an apprentice? A commoner. A DM can give commoners spells, nothing in the MM is written in stone. Heck it's encouraged to alter things. If the commoners are drow or tieflings, then you can bet your butt that they'll be able to cast spells. Extremely limited and might need to be leveled, but it's not impossible. All of that is up to the DM, just like all NPC's.


There are lots of reasons why psionics aren't going to replace martials. But only one really matters. That person who charges the dragon with the big sharp metal stick? That's a story archetype so deep into human imagination that it's older than dirt. Gilgamesh, Beowulf, Cuchulain, these are fighters. Sure we can't make them proper in 5e, sure they push beyond human limits. But they are doing it without magic (Gilgamesh is 1/3rd god...which is impossible. But Enkidu, his best bud was fully human. That guy kept up with him on equal level) and it's described as physical power and sheer determination.

There will always be the nonmagical person in these stories, the person who goes forward with nothing but their wits. They aren't always the strongest, but they are there. Heck the pychic warrior of darksun is about as mundane as the fighter, because it's considered abnormal to not have psionics of any kind there.

Predict all you want, but this is something that will never happen. Martials may change over and over again, but they will always be there, and they'll always be in the core for each edition of D&D. Even if psions are in the core book, the Fighter will always be a few pages ahead.

Now I'm not a smart person, as can be told with how much I just tend to argue with you. But you've never explained what psionics are suppose to do, instead you bash martials with mundane as though it's a swear word. You wanna try and convince people on your idea? Stop dissing what people like and start explaining your point.

If you don't know the difference, then learn.

Casting 9th level Spells is now mundane?


mun·dane
lacking interest or excitement; dull.
"seeking a way out of his mundane, humdrum existence"

fan·ta·sy
the faculty or activity of imagining things, especially things that are impossible or improbable.

Read these and try to get on the same page. Fighters are mundane, their abilities are mundane, and they never go past low fantasy/mundane throughout their level 1 - 20. Anything they can try to do can be replicated by the commoners and the casters of the world in which they are placed. They also do not stretch the idea of impossible or imagination.

Hitting someone 4 times in 6 seconds is not impossible by any stretch of the imagination.

Meanwhile casters start off as low/mid fantasy and then grow and become high fantasy. They far outpace not only the martials but also the world in which they belong too.

Edit

How many commoners does it take to replicate a martial and how many commoners does it take to replicate a caster.

You can measure this when looking at the martial you can not measure this by looking at the caster. Four commoners attacks and the other 4 commoners shoves a creature. I just replicated a 20th level Fighter.

How many commoners can replicate a 9th level spell?

[Ralanr]

Casting 9th level Spells is now mundane?


mun·dane
lacking interest or excitement; dull.
"seeking a way out of his mundane, humdrum existence"

fan·ta·sy
the faculty or activity of imagining things, especially things that are impossible or improbable.

Read these and try to get on the same page. Fighters are mundane, their abilities are mundane, and they never go past low fantasy/mundane throughout their level 1 - 20. Anything they can try to do can be replicated by the commoners and the casters of the world in which they are placed. They also do not stretch the idea of impossible or imagination.

Hitting someone 4 times in 6 seconds is not impossible by any stretch of the imagination.

Meanwhile casters start off as low/mid fantasy and then grow and become high fantasy. They far outpace not only the martials but also the world in which they belong too.

Edit

How many commoners does it take to replicate a martial and how many commoners does it take to replicate a caster.

You can measure this when looking at the martial you can not measure this by looking at the caster. Four commoners attacks and the other 4 commoners shoves a creature. I just replicated a 20th level Fighter.

How many commoners can replicate a 9th level spell?

Who says it's one target? Four enemies, four strikes, four dead.

Well you can't get a 9th level spell until 17 anyway. And you know how things can dodge? Less likely to be able to dodge when fighting a guy with training and max strength.

But this is pointless. You don't give examples to your points on what psionics are or what they could do, instead just refuting everything people say to you.

Why don't you share what you view psionics as and how this system would go beyond the "mundane" of martials? I'd rather hear that instead of you defending your stance with, "martials are mundane".

So please, so the other end of the argument. Describe what these psionics that replace martials will be like.

Give examples please.

[SharkForce]

Who says it's one target? Four enemies, four strikes, four dead.

Well you can't get a 9th level spell until 17 anyway. And you know how things can dodge? Less likely to be able to dodge when fighting a guy with training and max strength.

But this is pointless. You don't give examples to your points on what psionics are or what they could do, instead just refuting everything people say to you.

Why don't you share what you view psionics as and how this system would go beyond the "mundane" of martials? I'd rather hear that instead of you defending your stance with, "martials are mundane".

So please, so the other end of the argument. Describe what these psionics that replace martials will be like.

Give examples please.

if you don't want to get into a discussion about what mundane is, then why did you start a discussion about what mundane is?

[Ralanr]

if you don't want to get into a discussion about what mundane is, then why did you start a discussion about what mundane is?

I did, but I'm just not understanding Thermals view. I'm hoping that understanding his/her view on psionics may help.

Otherwise it feels like nothing is being transferred from both sides. And I've seen enough forum debates go pages before trying to remember the point.

[GiantOctopodes]

In other words, for many people, their vision of a high-level martial character is someone like Aragorn or Logen Ninefingers instead of, say, Zaraki Kenpachi or Hercules or someone similarly over the top. Whether or not that is an issue is a matter of opinion, I suppose.


This statement really resonates with me, especially because a high level Wizard is *not* Gandalf. Gandalf has some cantrips (Thaumaturgy being the most obvious, plus Presdigitation), some Abjuration spells (the most famous scene of his, fighting the Balrog, was basically little more than Protection from Evil), and a keen mind, with very minimal displays of "overt" magic in the way D&D does it. In essence, Gandalf falls on the "realistic" side of things (relatively speaking) whereas D&D operates on the "fantastic" side of things. He is definitely a "low fantasy" caster.

Yet, this difference in the power of the casters is not equally conveyed to the martial characters. Legolas swinging onto a galloping horse, taking out its current rider while doing so, before letting loose arrow after arrow into the enemies around him, rather than being the 'tame' or 'realistic' vision of an Elf Fighter (which is what he definitely is in 5E), suddenly becomes "ooh, that's going to be tough. It's definitely possible, but not easy. Make an Acrobatics check, and then an unarmed strike with the shove maneuver, then a Handle Animal check to get the horse under control..." with multiple points of failure and arbitrarily set DCs resulting in a significant chance you'll be trampled, whiff entirely, end up on the horse behind the guy rather than taking him out, and / or have the horse galloping along uncontrolled. Based on the way actions work, it's exceedingly likely the DM will say that you've used your object interaction on grabbing the horse, then used the attack action on the shoving off the current rider, meaning you no longer have an action to get the horse under control, and the whole thing may take multiple turns, by which point the horse is long since dead.

In short, the casters of D&D are playing in high fantasy, in some ways ultra-high fantasy. The martials in D&D struggle to live up to the low fantasy archetypes from which they are derived. If people's idea of the archetype for Monk was Goku from Dragonball Z, for the Rogue was the Thief from 8 bit theater, for the Fighter was Afro from Afro Samurai, etc, it would be far more balanced in terms of martials vs casters, in my humble opinion.

[Ralanr]

Afro as the model for fighter.

Everything dies. Blood everywhere, everyone and everything is dead.

[Paeleus]

I would say that a monk's ki and a fighter's abilities come from the same place; the strengthened will brought about by training/working out/meditation/etc.

The main difference is the implementation. Whereas a monk trains with the knowledge of ki and is thus able to do unusual things with it that a non-monk could not do by way of refined ki usage, a fighter trains without such knowledge, allowing their ki to manifest in a non-refined, more natural/raw way via higher hit points/second wind/action surge/etc. A monk character is free to focus ASI on dex instead of strength for his strikes because he understands how to attack an opponent's chakra points/pressure points. A fighter must focus on brute power and/or quickness separately, thus further accentuating their fighting style/character feel.

Tl;dr - monk has refined ki usage reflected by versatile ki abilities and ki economy.
Fighter has unrefined ki usage reflected by less versatile options with a short/long rest economy.

[SharkForce]

I did, but I'm just not understanding Thermals view. I'm hoping that understanding his/her view on psionics may help.

Otherwise it feels like nothing is being transferred from both sides. And I've seen enough forum debates go pages before trying to remember the point.

alright, i'll try and help you understand what he's getting at.

erase "psionics" from his sentences, and replace it with "the power to exceed the limits of what should be possible through strength of mind".

he doesn't mean that fighters should be a psion or wilder. he means that the fighter should be empowered to do things that should be impossible, and that the power source should be internal to the fighter rather than external.

which is why this thread is now about ki, and why you're seeing people suggesting that they don't like ki and it should be grit or moxie or panache or who knows how many other possible names we could come up with, but the key point is not psionics or ki. you're getting hung up on the wrong thing.

the essence of the suggestion is to give fighters some sort of resource that is internal to them that lets them tell reality to shut up and sit down, because they're about to do something awesome and they don't have time for silly details like "human bones are not strong enough to pick up a dinosaur, and human muscles are not strong enough to let you throw it over a cliff" or other such petty concerns.

[Prime32]

In forgotten realms wiki, it says pscionics is also related to ki or the invisible arts as well as psionics. Now if a samurai or ninja was said to use ki, this is usually not considered to be a magical power, but rather a manifestation of a person's inner will. Though not psychic, in the terms of telepathy or telekinesis, it is a power from within. And we are okay with that?

Often we associate negatively, psionics as pseudo magical or "mutant" powers. I mean read comic book, you get bumped on the head and you get a special power. And we associate ki as a quasi magical ability. But is it?

So how do we classify a fighter's second wind, indomitable, or survivor skill? Is the ability magical, at least to a farmer or merchant watching it, it might be? Where does action derive from?

If these abilities are not fantastical and only result from years of training than why do they only happen once a day. Why is a champions critical hit always on? Are ki powers anymore spectacular than someone with a 20 strength military pressing 600lbs? Or someone action surging twice a day?

For a western medieval character how we classify the ability to jump farther, olympic feats? They may not be magical, but are awe inspiring. Where does this power originate from? DON'T LAUGH! But is it heart? I don't want to be the jerk who is credited with heart potions?

The ability to do some of these incredible feats of endurance are more than just physical attributes but mind over matter. Is that not "Ki".

So, psychic or psionic warriors aside, is it wrong to call what "mundane" fighters do ki based at least. It is special at least. Running a marathon, is more than just muscle or being fit, it is mind over matter.Ki is not something special that only some people have - it's the Chinese/Japanese word for breath, as in "the breath of life". Ki is the sum total of all that flows through a creature or place - energy, emotions and vital processes. "Can a fighter swing a sword without using his ki" is equivalent to asking "Can a fighter swing a sword without being alive" (or even "Can a fighter swing a sword without physically existing").
One fighter might say he does warmup exercises to improve blood flow, and another might say he does them to improve ki flow - they're the same thing, just described differently.

Strictly speaking both magic and psionics involve ki, since everything has ki. The difference is that psions learn to redirect the flow of ki in their body, like clenching a phantom muscle (and creatures that gained psionic abilities without training are essentially double-jointed). Magic-users learn sets of commands that redirect the ki of the world around them, without touching it directly (and are less likely to use the word ki, unless they're doing large-scale geomancy where the region's ki flow could have an impact on it).

[Ralanr]

alright, i'll try and help you understand what he's getting at.

erase "psionics" from his sentences, and replace it with "the power to exceed the limits of what should be possible through strength of mind".

he doesn't mean that fighters should be a psion or wilder. he means that the fighter should be empowered to do things that should be impossible, and that the power source should be internal to the fighter rather than external.

which is why this thread is now about ki, and why you're seeing people suggesting that they don't like ki and it should be grit or moxie or panache or who knows how many other possible names we could come up with, but the key point is not psionics or ki. you're getting hung up on the wrong thing.

the essence of the suggestion is to give fighters some sort of resource that is internal to them that lets them tell reality to shut up and sit down, because they're about to do something awesome and they don't have time for silly details like "human bones are not strong enough to pick up a dinosaur, and human muscles are not strong enough to let you throw it over a cliff" or other such petty concerns.

Thank you.

You see the internal system I'm fine with. Martials getting a resource system just makes sense to me. Granted I prefer calling it grit/panache/moxie, because those are broad enough to go from magic, mundane, or something else entirely. Giving fighters ki points would be interesting, I know I saw a homebrew subclass that used it.

But the problem only lies within what the system is called (at least before balancing). Ki makes it seem to wuxia, psionics can draw a wrong crowd, and grit seems to not work either.

[Cazero]

he doesn't mean that fighters should be a psion or wilder. he means that the fighter should be empowered to do things that should be impossible, and that the power source should be internal to the fighter rather than external.

That's one of the things an ability score higher than 14 is supposed to do. That problem is not limited to fighters and is related with the weird way D&D treats ability scores. The main problem with 5e is how fast you reach the cap and not how low it is. Another problem is how nobody gets the new scaling right with smaller numbers.

Let's say you want to cause tremors by stomping the ground. If the Tarrasque can do it by 'taking 10', and assuming the Tarrasque has an impossible proficiency in it, it's a DC26 STR check at most. A level 20 champion fighter has like 15% chance to do it, and nobody else can.

[SharkForce]

That's one of the things an ability score higher than 14 is supposed to do. That problem is not limited to fighters and is related with the weird way D&D treats ability scores. The main problem with 5e is how fast you reach the cap and not how low it is. Another problem is how nobody gets the new scaling right with smaller numbers.

Let's say you want to cause tremors by stomping the ground. If the Tarrasque can do it by 'taking 10', and assuming the Tarrasque has an impossible proficiency in it, it's a DC26 STR check at most. A level 20 champion fighter has like 15% chance to do it, and nobody else can.

uh-huh. you got a rules quote for that?

(on a side note: bards can also make DC 26 ability checks just fine).

[Ralanr]

uh-huh. you got a rules quote for that?

(on a side note: bards can also make DC 26 ability checks just fine).

Which opens ability check debates, let's not do that here.

Resource system I think could work, but I think (at first, as in upon its introduction) the things it's used for shouldn't be overly magical fluff wise.

Shooting for, "Maybe magic, maybe mundane" seems like a reasonable start.