Tucker's Kobolds

[Jalathas]

Earlier, one of my friends said something along the lines of, "Kobolds really aren't as great as people say. They're just another low-level monster." This, of course, means war. I threatened him with Tucker's Kobolds, and I plan to deliver. I'm gonna run it as a one-shot, and I'm wondering what level would be most appropriate to show him that kobolds can be a threat long after level one. I'd also like some tips on how many kobolds to send at them and how they should be set up. I was thinking mostly standard MM kobolds+crossbows and a few sorcerers and fighters thrown in for kicks.

[Jack Mann]

Level ten or higher.

You can make them a threat at that point, and that really makes it stick.

[TheOOB]

Well, any creature can be a threat with enough class levels, but at that point it's not the creature thats threatening, it's the 10+ levels of wizard.

[Ulzgoroth]

Google Tucker's Kobolds, and realize that that 10 levels of wizard (or anything else) don't enter into this.

[Aquillion]

For anyone who doesn't want to bother googling: Basically, Tucker's Kobolds is a story about a guy's campaign where he had the first level of this big dungeon inhabited by kobolds. These were not your typical kobolds. They didn't have any special abilities, no, and no particular bonuses; they were just mean. Really, really mean. They'd turned the floor into a massive deathtrap for adventurers. They would trap adventurers in hallways, pour in oil, and light it on fire. They would shoot at them through murder holes while the adventurers were on fire. They'd usually stay out of sight, so it was hard to take out more than one or two with a spell, and they stayed in constant communication with each other so they could keep the pressure on adventurers constantly. Evil evil evil.

To be fair, though, it's not like the fact that they're kobolds is what makes it dangerous. Any nonchaotic race of small sentient creatures could do (or even chaotic ones if you want to stretch a point. Say that they've been whipped into shape by a BBEG and you're set.)

Hmm, Tucker's Awakened Monkeys has potental as an adventure...

[Miles Invictus]

It's not that hard to find; there's even a website dedicated to it.

http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/

[I_Got_This_Name]

Kobolds have a racial tendency toward traps (bonus to Trapmaking), plus a society that can't defend itself any other way. That's why it has to be kobolds.

[ClericofPhwarrr]

That is awesome. I feel so enlightened... and I'm laughing really hard.

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

I'd never really known what Tucker's Kobolds were before....I'm going to use this. Use the hell out of it.

[Mewtarthio]

Just be sure they don't have Teleport.

Or ridiculous epic spells like "Verdigris Tsunami" that can just annihilate the entire dungeon, but that goes without saying

[Demented]

Teleport works if you're a Halfling Wizard. Otherwise, expect to be stuck crawling on your belly while someone pours molten slag your way.

Unless you mean teleporting out of the dungeon... But that's admitting defeat... By low level kobolds.

[blackout]

....Dude, I'm gonna convince my group to restart our old FR campaign with our stolen Covenant gear, and we're just gonna see if we can get out of a situation like this alive. :)

[Turcano]

One of the things that Tucker's Kobolds illustrates most clearly is that monsters are apparently playtested with some level of chivalry/tactical apathy on the DM's part. If monsters are played intelligently and (more importantly) ruthlessly, challenge ratings can mean absolutely nothing.

[Ulzgoroth]

Well, to be fair, they do say that you should adjust CRs for circumstances in which you meet the monster (don't they?). Tucker's Kobolds isn't so much a Kobold encounter as an encounter with the most appallingly nasty set of booby traps and hostile circumstances imaginable...until the DM re-configures it for your pitiful attempt to get back out, anyway.

[The_Snark]

One of the things that Tucker's Kobolds illustrates most clearly is that monsters are apparently playtested with some level of chivalry/tactical apathy on the DM's part. If monsters are played intelligently and (more importantly) ruthlessly, challenge ratings can mean absolutely nothing.

Well, of course. The DM has complete control over the environment. When played viciously enough, something that's otherwise pretty easy can be deadly (i.e. an antimagic field-filled pit containing multiple oozes).

What makes Tucker's Kobolds interesting is that they're deadly through almost entirely mundane means; the area's not filled with Antimagic Fields or Dimension Locks. They're pretty much just using torches, lantern oil, mundane weapons, shovels, a whole lot of time, and a whole lot more inventive cruelty.

[Ditto]

My level 5 party found the lost underground city of the kobolds a few months ago. After the barbarian charged into a room with a dozen little blighters (who actually would have listened if we tried to talk to them), three were flanking him before the sorcerer cast web on the whole room. The stupid PC monk/sorc got entangled, and the other three of us can't even get in the room. A few of the kobolds escape the web, a few are slagged by the barbarian, and a few are killed when the survivors light the web on fire. They're keenly aware that "It's us or them!" in a racial sense - individuals are very expendable. The sorc gets away after pelting the PC monk/sorc with a few magic missiles.

The monk/sorc and barbarian were very sore after that.

Later, we hear some Yip Yip Yips! from the darkness ahead of us. The brilliant (what kind of 18 Wis is that?) guy goes charging around the corner. He returns moments later with three flaming arrows in his chest, huge AC and Snatch Arrows be damned. "Aiyah!" got pwned by some kobold rangers.

That adventure was awesome

[the_tick_rules]

yeah kobolds need character levels to be anymore than a teething ring for level 1 heroes.

[Ikkitosen]

yeah kobolds need character levels to be anymore than a teething ring for level 1 heroes.

Did you read the rest of the thread, or are you being sarcastic?

[Batman]

So the way to make kobolds dangerous is to put down a lot of high-CR traps? I don't think I see how that works. Isn't it the traps (which have their own CR, and often cost ridiculous amounts of cash-moneys) which are threatening? Incidentally, I hate traps as a part of the game.

[Ikkitosen]

So the way to make kobolds dangerous is to put down a lot of high-CR traps? I don't think I see how that works. Isn't it the traps (which have their own CR, and often cost ridiculous amounts of cash-moneys) which are threatening? Incidentally, I hate traps as a part of the game.

A locked door is not a trap. A tunnel through which a kobold can move but a medium creature can't isn't a trap. Flaming oil, thrown by a kobold, isn't a trap.

It's the tactics of the kobolds that raises the CR - any DM giving out CR1 xp for that fight needs talking to!!

[Batman]

So it's the environment. Well, yeah--the DMG even mentions that, say, 10 orcs are a much easier encounter than 10 orcs, across a wet bridge, firing crossbows from behind cover. Burning oil isn't really that threatening, it deals 1d6.

[Ikkitosen]

So it's the environment. Well, yeah--the DMG even mentions that, say, 10 orcs are a much easier encounter than 10 orcs, across a wet bridge, firing crossbows from behind cover. Burning oil isn't really that threatening, it deals 1d6.

Absolutely - environment is the main part of it.

I think attrition is one of the primary strengths of these encounters. If they can reliably deal 1d6 damage without answer then they've got you beat.

[Batman]

Why wouldn't you be able to answer? Even something as cheap and simple as a Wand of Magic Missiles should do it, really, combined with readied actions. Kobold pokes his head out, kobold eats a magic missile to the face.

[UglyPanda]

Those traps are home-made and aren't the kind of traps you find in the MM. The traps the kobolds used were the ambush variety. Essentially they stuck a bunch of wood, explosives, and lighter fluid in a corner, and the adventurers lit it...with their bodies...since they were already on fire.
Tucker's kobolds were probably all level 1, and from what I read, the PCs were scared to fight back. Half the kobolds were sniping them, so attacking one of the ones who was out in the open would've just turned him into a pincushion. Once the PCs were running, they found that the only way to escape was a 100 ft. drop.
Tucker's kobolds were second edition. Second edition had caps on AC so it wasn't like the kobolds could've only hit on a 20 (Molotovs count as touch attacks). Also, blaster mages had to play around with geometry in that fireballs in a narrow corridor would try to fit the shape of its container. So in order to provide just as much of a challenge in 3.5, you have to make the kobold even more hidden than they previously were.

Edit: Bat-guy. Tucker's Kobolds were in second edition. Magic wasn't anywhere near as prevalent and regular oil worked better than alchemist fire.

[Ikkitosen]

I should have said "answer meaningfully" perhaps. There are a lot of kobolds in the named scenario methinks.

Plus once you ready an action the kobolds can retreat, ending combat, and then come back and get another suprise round, negating your readied action completely.

[Batman]

I should have said "answer meaningfully" perhaps. There are a lot of kobolds in the named scenario methinks.

Plus once you ready an action the kobolds can retreat, ending combat, and then come back and get another suprise round, negating your readied action completely.

When you're talking about a kobold, a magic missile is likely to kill it outright. More than 50 kobolds, bring two wands. It'll make for a pretty dull adventure, though; fighter and cleric covering the wizard, rogue searching for traps all the time, exchanging ping with kobolds. As for ending combat to negate a readied action, that's not tactics--that's maliciously abusing the problems with the readied action system, the equivalent of sticking someone's head in a bucket of water to bring them back to 0 HP.

[Ikkitosen]

...As for ending combat to negate a readied action, that's not tactics--that's maliciously abusing the problems with the readied action system, the equivalent of sticking someone's head in a bucket of water to bring them back to 0 HP.

Not at all. Kobolds attack from behind walls, releasing a single volley before retreating so that you get no time to respond. Tactics.

[EvilElitest]

I cam up with a really nasty encounter using a homebrew from this thread

The flesh eater (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37301)
Is the monster, last post on that thread is my nasty player trap
from,
EE

[I_Got_This_Name]

Not at all. Kobolds attack from behind walls, releasing a single volley before retreating so that you get no time to respond. Tactics.

Yeah, I think a better way to put this is that they end combat by withdrawing from the battle, and then attack again only when the PCs let their guard down, (possibly as much as a minute later, if necessary). They don't just get the DM to say "combat over. Surprise round!"

[Enzario]

You want a dangerous kobold???
Do I even have to say this?

Level 5...
Kobold Psion...

[blackout]

O_O Oh, god, don't even JOKE about that.

[Douglas]

The Psion build has to be level 12 as I recall. The level 5 build is Divine Minion 1/Wizard 1/Master of Many Forms 3.

Anyway, that kind of cheese is not at all what the OP is looking for.

[Batman]

Not at all. Kobolds attack from behind walls, releasing a single volley before retreating so that you get no time to respond. Tactics.

And you can't keep a wand at the ready and be on alert... why?
My point is that the "can't ready actions outside initiative" rule is a problem. I guess you could have one party member taking fist swipes at another and intentionally missing to stay in initiative all the time...

[I_Got_This_Name]

You can't keep combat-level adrenaline up all the time without something attacking you. The kobolds give you a chance to calm down just slightly, to get to be alert rather than fighting, then they hit you again. Being ready while alert, instead of fighting, means that you don't take the penalty to Spot for not paying attention, and already have your sword/wand/crossbow drawn (and loaded, if necessary) and so can fight back in the surprise round.

[blackout]

The Psion build has to be level 12 as I recall. The level 5 build is Divine Minion 1/Wizard 1/Master of Many Forms 3.

Anyway, that kind of cheese is not at all what the OP is looking for.

....Pun-Pun would make a very nice leader for Tucker's Kobolds.

[Mephibosheth]

I believe the PHBII has an interesting section on rules for using restrictive tunnels to limit capabilities of larger creatures (i.e. kobolds in tunnels too small for medium PC's). Wizards released an excerpt of it online a while ago, which can be found here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20050602b&page=1). Could definitely hinder the war-like PC's options in combat, leaving the kobolds with only the magic-users to deal with. Paying attention to rules like this can make the combat more difficult. Be wary about using it too much though, since it can make your players frustrated instead of exhilarated.

Additionally, as long as you're playing the kobolds as clever and adaptable fighters, they can come up with tactics to deal with the "readied action with a wand of magic missile" option. Driving enslaved/domesticated creatures before them when they move behind holes, attacking from multiple spots at the same time, targeting the one using the wand and him/her first, using shields/scarecrow-like constructions to draw fire before hopping out to shoot, etc. As long as there are kobolds in sufficient numbers, these kinds of tactics should be relatively effective.

I hope the scenario goes well, and that the advice you find here is helpful. Let us know how it turns out!

Mephibosheth

[Jack Mann]

You can only kill one kobold at a time with that wand. That won't save you. Especially if they can get you to waste it. As well, they can do all sorts of things with cover. After the first magic missile, they can prevent line of effect. It limits their actions, but with their superior knowledge of the territory, and ability to go places you can't, they have a lot of options. Stampeding animals, for example. Hiding and waiting for you to move. You can't stay in one place forever (and if you do, they have some wonderful things they can do with smoke).

And remember, your readied action only goes off if you're aware the conditions have taken place. If the kobold hides well enough, you may not spot him popping out to snipe at you.

[DaMullet]

All this talk of kobolds reminds me of a discussion on the Wizards forums... Went something like this:

"How can I make a small group of orcs a threat to my higher-level party?"
"Give them all one level in Sorcerer with a readied action to cast Magic Missile when the adventurers come through the door."

In essence, 50d4+50 to the face, instantly, no save. Fairly deadly, and when combined with some sort of automatic door-closer (which the Kobolds and their racial affinity toward traps could easily build) it's essentially death.

[Piedmon_Sama]

Any DM who actually did something that cheesy would fully deserve to be hung by his shoestrings, though. It's a question of working with what you could reasonably be expected to have, not cherrypicking from all the spells, classes and monsters you have available.

[Ikkitosen]

Yeah, if the challenge is for the DM to kill the PCs just have rocks fall, since it's just as arbitrary.

[Piedmon_Sama]

In fairness though, I could see a powerful and oppressive government training, say, 50 rogues and equipping each with a Wand of Magic Missile. Then they could go around, Brazilian Death-Squad style, kicking in doors and assassinating subversive leaders with the D&D equivalant of a gangland killing.

[Matthew]

Yeah, I had a Player Character Party like that once. Three frickin' Player Characters filling all their First level Spell Slots with Magic Missiles and targeting enemy leaders. Quite annoying, as I recall.

[Person_Man]

Ah, Tucker's Kobolds. I remember when I first read about them in Dragon. Makes me feel so old (I'm 29), I should retell the Head of Vecna story.

[Raum]

Hehe, that was a good story.

Back on the subject of Tucker's Kobolds, the scenario is heavily dependent on terrain. As such, any thing which neutralizes the effects of the terrain will allow the adventurers a chance to prevail. Any group thinking they can simply wade through kobolds by the dozen will be slaughtered when they can't even see the attacking kobolds.

As for your tactics, set up the tunnel / secret tunnel system used by Tucker, prepare fallback positions for the kobolds, prepare methods of blocking the small tunnels to slow or prevent pursuit, and snipe from different positions constantly. Level one kobolds can easily assist each other and take 10 to create traps requiring a Craft (Trap) check of up to 20 so those should be common.

[Golthur]

Ah, Tucker's Kobolds. I remember when I first read about them in Dragon. Makes me feel so old (I'm 29), I should retell the Head of Vecna story.

I loved Head of Vecna. The best part is that it worked TWICE.

Back on topic, I've used (as a DM) and fought (as a player) Tucker's Kobolds (or variants thereof) numerous times. Absolutely the #1 rule when using them is to design everything in the environment to be a hindrance for medium sized creatures and meaningless for small creatures - e.g. low tunnels, swinging log traps that hit at about 4-1/2' high, etc.

Greased, steeply-sloped hallways also work wonders to keep PCs away from sniping positions and can also be lit on fire when the kobolds flee. :amused:

[Tor the Fallen]

Kobolds with murder holes can ready actions against your readied action.

What's that, casty mcblast? You're waving your wand? Howabout a ballista bolt TO THE FACE!?

[Argent]

We've never encountered Tucker's Kobolds, but our DM put us up against a similarly nasty bunch of orcs once. We were invading what we found out later to be their warren, and they beat the heck out of us before we finally wiped them out. Between barricades (to give them cover and to block our movement), simple traps, floods of low-level flunkies and similar low-tech tactics, man, those guys were tough. Worst part was they kept buckets of water around to douse our torches; most of the party was lacking darkvision, so any time they extinguished our light sources, we were hosed.

[Batman]

"Light" is a cantrip...

[The_Werebear]

"Light" is a cantrip...

That no one thinks they need if they have a torch.

[Ikkitosen]

Or sunrods...

[Draz74]

Or Everburning Torch ...

[Zim]

It is not cheesy for NPC's to use tactics or terrain to their advantage. Having a plan to defend your home is just common sense. Any intelligent, organized, group of beings would do the same thing. When they're LE and utterly ruthless like a typical kobold tribe, then things can get ugly.
Example:
**Minor Spoilers**
I recently DM'ed Three Faces of Evil (written for 4 third level characters, I had five) from the Age of Worms and my PC's had a heck of a time just staying alive (and they had action points to help them too).

I ran the module out of the magazine, with some minor changes for the flavour of my homebrew campaign setting, and it was deadly. The LE enclave had a (very basic) battle plan that used their numbers, dungeon layout and cooperation to their advantage. They almost killed the entire party (experienced RPGers and a couple of powergamers to boot) at their front door and I'm not a killer DM.

What were they up against? A dozen human warriors, a few skeletons, and 2Tiefling fighters 1's. All they did was fight as a team and deny the PC's a chance to rest or take the initiative. In a stand up fight in an open area where the PC's had a chance to prepare, these mooks would have gone down like, well, mooks in a few rounds. Instead, they made for a memorable challenging encounter. Sure, they all died horribly and the PC's were victorious (they are the heroes after all), but it was really touch and go in places.

If the defenders had been kobolds and the EL's were kept the same, I think it would have been a TPK. The increase in numbers alone would have left the party as a pile of crossbow bolt riddled corpses in two rounds. Let's not even contempate traps and battlefield control methods (grease spells, smokesticks, caltrops, barricades) :smalleek:

[Batman]

That no one thinks they need if they have a torch.

Really? When I play, it's more like "we don't need torches, we have the Light spell. And some sunrods for backup."

[Jack Mann]

Remember, the ultimate point of Tucker's Kobolds is not to wipe out the party, nor to humiliate them. It's simply to A) show them that even low level monsters can still be a threat, and B) give them a proper challenge, one that they don't just wade through. It works best with kobolds precisely because they're one of the weakest creatures in the monster manual, and because they have that natural proclivity for traps. You can apply the same logic with any cunning creature for similar results. This is the sort of thing that keeps the game interesting.

[The_Werebear]

Really? When I play, it's more like "we don't need torches, we have the Light spell. And some sunrods for backup."

My party generally is more along the lines of -Lets get torches and lanterns, and use our cantrips for mending, detect magic, read magic, Cure Minor wounds for stabilizing, and prestidigitation.

[Runolfr]

The really simple way to prepare an effective kobold/goblin/whatever dungeon encounter is to look at it from the PC's point of view.

The party consists of a handful of low-level characters, but they have command of a horde of level 1 commoners and a week or so to prepare. They know that a group of mid-to-high level villains will show up about that time to rob/kill/maim the commoners. It's a sort of Seven Samurai or Magnificent Seven scenario.

Given these resources, what would you -- as one of a party of PCs -- do to try to drive off or defeat the approaching villains? Once you've got some ideas, invert the scenario so that the PCs are the ones attacking the community of puny monsters that wants to defend itself.

Some general concepts:

Limit the invaders' movement; they have to go down a narrow corridor to get where they're going, while inaccessible side passages allow the defenders to outmanuver them. Hammer them while they're stuck trying to open locked doors. Make them climb or descend long ladders, where you can drop things on them.
Deprive them of their defenses; make them wade through mud or cross chasms using nothing but a rope line, depriving them of Dex bonuses to AC (great if you've got Rogues with ranged weapons within 30').
Fortify positions; the defenders always attack from murder holes or arrow slits, giving them the benefit of full cover whenever they attack.
Make the environment hostile; have a dip in the path where oil can pool; when the enemy is at the bottom, set it on fire. Low-lying passages that can be flooded on short notices are also effective, since you can drown the party.
Indirect fire; if you can lob missiles, stones, alchemist's fire, etc over a wall without showing yourselves, do it.
Strip them of their toys; are domesticated rust monsters an option? (Technically, they take you beyond the "puny monsters" concept.) Fire can damage many special items, of course; remember to require those item saves.
Never fight fair; plan to attack from unexpected directions -- try to hit during a surprise round and then disappear before the invaders can even attempt to hit back.
Psychological warfare; try to target the weakest members of the group -- as they get closer to death, they'll encourage the rest to retreat. If it's possible to grab a hostage, go for it.Show no weakness or mercy. Never give them a target to fight.

A powerful enough party will find ways to survive, of course. Damage resistance, summoned monsters, and special movement spells will enable some groups to get outside the death zone, but they'll have to dedicate themselves to overcoming the defense, which may leave them vulnerable to some other sort of attack.

[Yahzi]

You can't keep combat-level adrenaline up all the time without something attacking you.
We are talking about trained professional soldiers here.

Going "out of combat" takes at least an hour.

[Argent]

That no one thinks they need if they have a torch.

Ding! Actually, we were of low level and had only one spellcaster in the party (he hadn't prepped Light that day). We were admittedly under-supplied and under-prepared but we'd thought, "What the heck, let's see how this goes." And got our tushes handed to us.

[Ikkitosen]

We are talking about trained professional soldiers here.

Going "out of combat" takes at least an hour.

Actually we're talking about adventurers, and the initiative rules disagree with you.

[Foeofthelance]

As for the magic missiles, just convert a few of the Kobold warriors with Kobold Adepts (1 for every ten or so. So figure thirty kobolds down a hall (10 each wall/ceiling) 27 are firing crossbows, 3 are healing the ones knocked out by the wizard's wand. Remember, it isn't dead until -10!

Kobolds aren't meant to be used in a straight up fight, but tend to be used the same way as goblins and orcs are, so they have a reputation for being weak. But an entire tribe protecting itself with traps, a culture that revers dragons and sorcers, and they emphasize freely given cooperation? Played smart, Tuckers Kobolds could take over the world if they wanted to. Or at least capture a large part of it for their dragon lords.

[Indon]

Kobolds with murder holes can ready actions against your readied action.

What's that, casty mcblast? You're waving your wand? Howabout a ballista bolt TO THE FACE!?

Ballista bolt to the wand would be another option.

"You hear a voice in Draconic shout, 'Destroy the death-stick!'"

[Dark]

I don't think readied actions are going to matter much. The PCs only get one action each per round, and the kobolds outnumber them. So what if they blast one with a wand? There's five more behind it.

The strategy of withdrawing from combat and then coming back once the PCs relax doesn't sound very promising to me. Instead, the kobolds should keep the pressure up. Don't give the PCs a moment to rest, heal, think, or even get their bearings.

Well, I guess you could play that either way. There's some value in building up tension with times of quiet, where all they hear is water dripping from the stalactites and the pitter-patter of little kobold feet. But I kind of prefer the version where you turn the corner and there's a FLAMING BOULDER coming straight at you, ABOUT TO IGNITE the pool of oil you're standing in. When you run back you find that CALTROPS now liberally decorate the corridor, and there's noise of WEIRD HAMMERING coming from the ceiling ahead, and kobolds keep shooting ARROWS AND POISONED DARTS from tiny side tunnels. WHAT DO YOU DO NOW??

Ahem.

[Ikkitosen]

^ Love it.

[Yahzi]

Ballista bolt to the wand would be another option.
Um. That's just not possible. You can't aim a ballista that finely.

We've been overlooking something that should work in the player's favor - morale. All of these attrition schemes basically trade kobolds for player hit-points. Not really an attractive deal for the kobolds. You would expect them to break discipline and run/hide at some point.

On the other hand, knowing that the PCs will mercilessly slaughter each and every kobold ("Look! A kobold baby! Surely that's worth 1 xp!") would tend to stiffen their resolve. Even evil communities can overcome their lack of cohesion when absolute destruction is the alternative.

The smart kobold commander puts his troops in a position where they cannot run away.

[ClericofPhwarrr]

We've been overlooking something that should work in the player's favor - morale. All of these attrition schemes basically trade kobolds for player hit-points. Not really an attractive deal for the kobolds. You would expect them to break discipline and run/hide at some point.

On the other hand, knowing that the PCs will mercilessly slaughter each and every kobold ("Look! A kobold baby! Surely that's worth 1 xp!") would tend to stiffen their resolve. Even evil communities can overcome their lack of cohesion when absolute destruction is the alternative.

The smart kobold commander puts his troops in a position where they cannot run away.

This doesn't apply very well to Kobolds, since the concept of self-sacrifice for the community is instilled in all of them since birth.

[JoeFredBob]

We've been overlooking something that should work in the player's favor - morale. All of these attrition schemes basically trade kobolds for player hit-points. Not really an attractive deal for the kobolds. You would expect them to break discipline and run/hide at some point.


You also probably underestimate the morale impact of *control*. One of most morale breaking things is to remove all the control that you can from a situation.

[Raum]

We've been overlooking something that should work in the player's favor - morale. All of these attrition schemes basically trade kobolds for player hit-points. Not really an attractive deal for the kobolds. You would expect them to break discipline and run/hide at some point.
Not necessarily. The kobolds need to fight a guerrilla war not an "honorable duel". They need to fight from behind cover and from within small tunnels. They should run anytime they can't...and then hit the invaders from a different tunnel. If chased / followed, they should lead their enemies through all kinds of prepared traps, deadfalls, cave ins, and ambushes. The characters should never get more than one action before the kobolds disappear...only to reappear from another direction.

Yes, the party would wipe the floor with kobolds in a face to face fight. But that's not the point of Tucker's Kobolds. They'll have cover bonuses to both Hide and AC. As a group they'll never let up...even though individuals hit only once before moving behind complete cover. And don't expect the tunnels to be straight...they'll twist over, under, and around the dungeon passageways to give kobolds shots from all directions.

[Tor the Fallen]

And hopefully the PCs took ranks in survival or have a magical way to find direction, cause they're going to get lost deep in the kobold warrens.

I imagine smart kobolds would take advantage of native dungeon life, putting gelatinous cubes in pits, having it so they drop out of the ceiling, etc. PCs come around a corner, face to face with a rolling boulder, they turn and flee, find themselves crippled on caltrops, and stuck in a gellatinous cube, all the while pelted with small weapons. Heh heh heh.

Fungus could be moved to dangerous locations. A room with brown mold that the flaming PCs stumble into as they stop, drop and roll.

Kobolds taunting the fighters into approaching, then unleashing a pack of rust monsters on them, fleeing, and ceiling the exits. Bye bye, shinies!

Diverting an underground river would make for lethal water hazards. Flood hallways, or even have gravity fed water guns you could use to bullrush PCs around with. Flood a hallway, then let the aquatic monsters run amuck, biting and stealing shinies. Fill the water with something dark, so it obscures all visibility, extinguishes the torches, and soils any scrolls that weren't safely stowed. Then outcome the aquatic kobold druid with blindsense and a pet with a lot of teeth. Yoink, there goes anything that wasn't tied down properly. Meanwhile, the PCs struggle to figure out a way to breathe.

Co-opting golems guarding items would work, too. A golem guards a treasure; the kobolds steal the treasure, with golem in hot pursuit. Give treasure back to golem Congratulations kobolds, you've now got your very own guardian robot!


Um. That's just not possible. You can't aim a ballista that finely.

You can fire a colossal heavy crossbow that finely. A team of kobolds manning a massive crossbow (ie, ballista) could aim it at anything they wanted. Treat the crossbow as either a trap, or give them all EWP (Really Big Crossbow), and go from there.


We've been overlooking something that should work in the player's favor - morale. All of these attrition schemes basically trade kobolds for player hit-points. Not really an attractive deal for the kobolds. You would expect them to break discipline and run/hide at some point.

The idea is that these kobolds are
a) fighting for their home and family
b) highly disciplined and working to wear down the PCs morale
c) not mobbing the PCs. They aren't trading kobolds for hitpoints, as the kobolds are always running around in the dark, behind cover, and low level magical effects that grant concealment.


On the other hand, knowing that the PCs will mercilessly slaughter each and every kobold ("Look! A kobold baby! Surely that's worth 1 xp!") would tend to stiffen their resolve. Even evil communities can overcome their lack of cohesion when absolute destruction is the alternative.

Kobolds are unified and cohesive. That's one of the reasons this strategy works. Also, the entire dungeon should be set up in a manner that the PCs never get a chance to get to the kobold dens and treasury. That is, after all, what the kobolds are protecting.


The smart kobold commander puts his troops in a position where they cannot run away.

No, the smart kobold commander recognizes that face-to-face battles are suicidal and a waste of troops, and makes sure there are at least 3 exits to every position. Rarely would a kobold leader expose his forces so stupidly, anyway. They're there to set & rest traps, take pot shots, mislead the PCs and otherwise make their life hell.

Think of the kobolds functioning similarly to the Viet Kong. Strike, then fade. The intent is to drive the PCs out with minimal casualties.

[Terraneaux]

Actually we're talking about adventurers, and the initiative rules disagree with you.

Yeah. Adventurers. Murderous hobos with near-deific power who are both merciless and incredibly competent at personal combat.

When the kobolds leave, and the PC has a 'readied action' to glick one with his pistol-grip wand of magic missile, he is really rolling spot and listen checks every round to spot them so that he can act in the surprise round. I'm guessing you were hoping for:

"Kobolds leave, and return a minute later. [player] takes 4 points normal and 6 points fire."

"But what about my-"

"Dammit, I'm the DM and what I say goes."

[The_Snark]

Yeah. Adventurers. Murderous hobos with near-deific power who are both merciless and incredibly competent at personal combat.

So accurate...

Anyway, on the rest of your post—I think it's more like, "The kobolds retreat and shut the iron-barred door in front of them; you can hear them chittering through the little grill. Bob's still on fire from when they hit you with alchemist's fire, remember."

Players- "Okay, we'll try to smother the fire on Bob."

DM- "You manage to put the fire out. *rolls dice* Joe, you're hit by a crossbow bolt for 3 damage. It looks like the bolt came from a little crawlway you didn't notice when you came in the corridor, which was understandable because you were all still trying to scrape the green slime they dropped on you last time off."

Height-specific traps are great for kobold warrens. That razor-sharp wire at 4 feet won't bother the kobolds, who can retreat right under it, but unless the party is searching for traps during combat they'll run straight into it. Magic missiles are a bit of a problem, but if your wizard has to resort to those the kobolds will very likely be outpacing you in damage.

[Dervag]

If you want detailed examples of how this kind of thing can work, look at the Viet Cong tunnel networks in Vietnam. These networks were designed with quite a few of the features described here.

[Mewtarthio]

Yeah. Adventurers. Murderous hobos with near-deific power who are both merciless and incredibly competent at personal combat.

When the kobolds leave, and the PC has a 'readied action' to glick one with his pistol-grip wand of magic missile, he is really rolling spot and listen checks every round to spot them so that he can act in the surprise round. I'm guessing you were hoping for:

"Kobolds leave, and return a minute later. [player] takes 4 points normal and 6 points fire."

"But what about my-"

"Dammit, I'm the DM and what I say goes."

Actually, it turns out like this:

"Kobold pops up. You blast him and send him to join Kurtlmank. Five crossbow bolts ram into you from behind."

Technically, the kobold's not even dead. Each missile deals at most five points of damage, so another guy can just stabilize whoever you hit. I guess you could get a Wand of Maximized Magic Missile for more damage and a higher CL (and an alliterative name)...

[Ikkitosen]

Yeah. Adventurers. Murderous hobos with near-deific power who are both merciless and incredibly competent at personal combat.

When the kobolds leave, and the PC has a 'readied action' to glick one with his pistol-grip wand of magic missile, he is really rolling spot and listen checks every round to spot them so that he can act in the surprise round. I'm guessing you were hoping for:

"Kobolds leave, and return a minute later. [player] takes 4 points normal and 6 points fire."

"But what about my-"

"Dammit, I'm the DM and what I say goes."

I notice that flaming sometimes starts with people making insulting assumptions from other people's posts. Please don't do that.

No, what I meant was "after the initial flurry of bolts, you grab for weapons and spells, but all the target you're offered is the pitter-patter of tiny feet behind the walls. Soon even this fades and all you're left with is darkness, silence and a locked door. What do you do?"

And then, once the PCs start doing anything other than standing there pointing weapons at the walls, the kobolds that were hiding behind the walls still (only some of them having run away) release another volley. It's even possible the PCs wouldn't get spot checks (kobolds have full concealment) or listen checks (since the ones attacking them don't have to move until the suprise round), although this last might be a bit harsh - especially if some were keeping watch while others do other stuff. Still, definitely encourages the PCs not to camp :smallamused:

[Inyssius Tor]

A few disjointed thoughts:

Kobolds are short. Their tunnels ought to be small enough to impose squeezing penalties (half movement, -4 to attacks and AC), if not small enough to make adventurers drop prone (less than half the characters' height will cause this).
It wouldn't be that hard to collapse a tunnel like that.
It wouldn't be that hard to douse said tunnel with oil while running through, either.

...what are the rules for digging through ten feet of rock and soil while prone and on fire?

[caden_varn]

Of course, a party containing Halflings or Gnomes would not be so badly affected, as they can take the fight to the Kobolds much more easily, using their own shortcut tunnels to avoid traps and the like. They can protect their taller companions as they all crawl through the tunnels. Or just abandon them to their fate, according to taste.

Of course, if the kobolds took the trouble to trap the tunnels too, the taller adventurers are in trouble - getting out of burning oil while crawling is probably going to ruin anyones day.

[Zim]

According to RotD, kobolds are meticulous planners and leave nothing to guesswork when mining their tunnels. They use divination magic and generations of experience to create thier warrens. It is not out of line to assume that they have every single detail of their completed tunnel systems engineered to be defensible against and deadly to intruders.

Bearing that in mind, not every tunnel the kobolds dig will only be 2.5' tall and wide. A great number of them will be large enough to accomodate large and even huge creatures; both to allow for monstrous allies a way in/out and to lead enemies into dead ends/kill zones.

Also take into account that the average party of adventurers are either lazy or paranoid. If your party is the typical group of medium sized humanoids (my players are a juvenile minotaur, a shifter and three humans -that's a pretty typical composition IMO), they are likely to choose the 5' or 10' wide/tall passages over the 2.5' ones because they don't want to be squeezed and/or have to make escape artist checks. It doesn't matter if the narrow passage is the tactically better route, they will almost always take the easy/perceived safe route. That will lead them into the deathtraps and kill zones prepared by the kobolds. It's neither anti player or against the spirit of the game to make the encounter really deadly.

A DM does have to remember to make sure that the PC's have the opportunity to be victorious or at least escape with their lives. Otherwise, it's just a TPK and whining.:smallbiggrin:

[Yahzi]

NThe characters should never get more than one action before the kobolds disappear
I'm kind of assuming every time the players get an action, a kobold dies.

If not, then man, those players are lame.

:smallbiggrin:

[Yahzi]

Adventurers. Murderous hobos with near-deific power who are both merciless and incredibly competent at personal combat.
:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

It's funny 'cause it's true.

[Raum]

I'm kind of assuming every time the players get an action, a kobold dies.Well, a kobold probably will die every time a player has an action while a visible kobold is in range. There are lots of kobolds though, they can afford to lose a few of their stupider brethren.

The smarter ones will sneak into attack range while behind cover, attack with a standard action, and then move behind cover. And then start the process all over from a different murder hole.

It's not an unsolvable problem, readied actions will take out some, though they will need ranged attacks vs AC with a cover bonus. But readied attacks can be negated if the kobolds use obscuring smoke and area attacks. So the group's best option is probably to retreat until they can memorize / acquire the appropriate spells to defeat the kobolds' chosen terrain and then return to fight them on their own turf. Even then it won't be easy, but they should win if they're smart.

On the other hand, PCs who stupidly discount the potential effectiveness of an organized tribe of kobolds on prepared ground of their own choosing...well they deserve their fate.

[Matthew]

I have seen many a Kobold encounter go very bad indeed and it was always down to intelligent use of tactics on the part of the Kobolds. One time I ran The Burning Plague and a party of six Player Characters did not even get past the Cavern Area (they were slaughtered by Kobolds with Cross Bows).

[Amphimir Míriel]

Ah, Tucker's Kobolds. I remember when I first read about them in Dragon. Makes me feel so old (I'm 29), I should retell the Head of Vecna story.

Oh, the Head of Vecna... that story is hilarious!


I'm kind of assuming every time the players get an action, a kobold dies.

If not, then man, those players are lame.

:smallbiggrin:

Still, even if they managed to down 1 or 3 Kobolds each time they get an action, this scenario assumes there are at least a hundred kobolds there...

[JellyPooga]

When the kobolds leave, and the PC has a 'readied action' to glick one with his pistol-grip wand of magic missile, he is really rolling spot and listen checks every round to spot them so that he can act in the surprise round.

Making an active Spot or Listen check is a move action. Doing both means you're not going anywhere. To move and Spot/Listen, you need the Quick Recconoitre feat from Complete Adventurer. Technically.

[DaMullet]

He would be entitled to a reactive spot check to see the Kobold shooting from a hiding position, and a reactive listen check to hear him.

[Jack Mann]

Then you have the improved kobold stats on the Wizards site with slight build...

[Mewtarthio]

He would be entitled to a reactive spot check to see the Kobold shooting from a hiding position, and a reactive listen check to hear him.

A) He still has to see him. By only taking a reactive spot check, he only gets one chance to spot the kobold.
B) Several kobolds will pop up at once, and he can only get one at a time unless his wand has a higher CL than normal.
C) He's still unable to take any standard actions.


Then you have the improved kobold stats on the Wizards site with slight build...

Oh. Oh, sweet merciful Pelor. If that makes tunnels two categories more navigable according to the Restrictive Tunnels (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20050602b&page=1) rule, that means kobolds can move around with only slight discomfort in areas that require an Escape Artist check for humans! Why, if a human were to enter a "Tight Squeeze" tunnel, a kobold could crawl up to him and stab him with Dex poison! It makes me claustrophobic just thinking about it!

[the_tick_rules]

I was kinda messin around earlier. Kobolds played very well can be dangerous. But since they are rather weak they have to be played very well to be a serious threat.

[Mewtarthio]

I was kinda messin around earlier. Kobolds played very well can be dangerous. But since they are rather weak they have to be played very well to be a serious threat.

Your apology comes too late. You have already angered the kobolds irrevocably. Oil pours on your head from above, catching fire from your torch. You flee and turn the corner, only to be peppered with crossbow bolts from innumberable holes in the wall. Desperately, you roll on the ground and put out the flames. You are now surrounded by nothing but darkness, and you stumble and fall into a pit. At the bottom of your fall, you find yourself pinned and immobilized by a boulder rigged to land on such a victim. You are trapped and helpless, and the excited yipping of the kobolds draws closer...

[shaddy_24]

This sounds brutal. I'd love to throw my PCs into that, but with various creatures. One area with kobolds, then goblins, then hobgoblins, then orcs, and up the food chain. How many levels before I throw Tuckers Pitfiends at them? (joking. that would be evil)

[the_tick_rules]

i have evasion and make my check, not today. uses my monk speed to escape.

[korath]

Well, if Tucker's Kobolds don't do it for you, Try Millerite Goblins instead. Like normal Goblins...only SMART. Sure..they are HAckmaster creatures..but easily converted.

MIllerite Goblins (http://www.geocities.com/mshensley/monsters/goblin_millerite.htm)