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Quietus
2007-04-30, 08:17 PM
I'm going to be starting a game shortly, in which one of my players is interested in the "Sword of Celestia" variant, apparently brought about in Dragon issue #349. Unfortunately, I don't have that issue, and am somewhat impatient - can anyone give me a quick snapshot of what this ends up with? It seems a little overpowered to me, but I'm imagining they end up with a +5 holy longsword at level 20 or something, for free, which would put them well ahead of WBL.

ocato
2007-04-30, 08:21 PM
+5 Holy Longsword at L20 is ahead of the WBL?

Quietus
2007-04-30, 08:30 PM
It'd be a free 98,000 - not ahead of WBL, but it'd skew WBL greatly in favor of the Paladin, who could spend the rest of his gear on other weapons, or not-weapons. As opposed to the Fighter who would then be almost 100k behind.

Fourth Tempter
2007-04-30, 08:35 PM
Well, the question is, of course: what is exchanged for this Sword of Celestia ability? If something is surrendered, that is all well and good.

Additionally, a +5 weapon is worth that much by the book, but in actuality, that isn't so; the spell "Greater Magic Weapon" quite obviates the need to enchant a sword beyond the bare minimum necessary for other spells to be placed on the blade. In reality, a +5 enchantment is only worth nine thousand gold--the cost of a "Pearl of Power III", to replace the spell slot your wizardly friend expended on the dweomer in question.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-30, 08:44 PM
What you want is a Weapon of Legacy: a growing weapon that has associated costs. They can be found both in the Weapons of Legacy book, and in the Tome of Battle. I would recommend Exordius (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050701a&page=4) or Merikel (or even the Legacy Holy Avenger in the back of the book) for your needs.

Conversely, you could go with a few options found in Unearthed Arcana: Item Familiars (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) are simple, but aren't the best option for what you're looking for. I would say that using the Legendary Weapons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/legendaryWeapons.htm) as presented here would probably work best without Weapons of Legacy.

MaxMahem
2007-04-30, 09:40 PM
Actually as written most Legacy Weapons are not that overpowered. In fact, as written most of them are fairly underpowered. In most cases the hit points, bab, spells, or whatever you gave up in exchange. In the end most of them being somewhat equivalent to a +10 weapon, which is ~200,000gp well within the WBL for a 20th level character (or 760,000gp).

For example the "Caput Mortuum" is a +5 unholy vicious wounding scythe which is pretty nice. However you must give up 12hp, 1 BAB, and an 8th level spell slot to wield it. The spell slot alone is worth at least 64,000gp (cost for an 8th lvl pearl of power), though arguably more as that spell slot could be spent on any spell instead of a repeat. Also, the player must put out a good 50,000gp in ritual cost as well (not to mention the effort of the rituals themselves).

So basically I think you could give your players even more powerful versions of the Legacy Weapons without throwing off your campaign to much. In the end even an epic fighter can only use one weapon at a time, and is similarly limited in his other item slots. Plus legacy weapons are much more personality than a boring old "holy avenger" or whatever. Especially if they have to put the effort into developing it. A character who has developed an item over 16 lvls is much more bonded to it then one who just picks up a new and better sword off some goons corps.

I've made something similar based on my feelings for one of my PCs, maybe you can adapt it for you're needs. It's a legacy weapon version of the Cudgel that never forgets (http://myweb.cableone.net/MaxMahem/content/Cudgel.pdf), for a Cleric of St. Cuthbert, it's perfect.

Quietus
2007-04-30, 09:46 PM
I do like the Weapon of Legacy idea... but what I was more worried about is balance. It seems to me that this variant is more powerful than the Paladin's Mount (which he gives up for this). I got him to type out what all this did, and the result was the following :

Level 5: +1 Weapon
Level 10: +2 Weapon
Level 15: +2 Holy Weapon
Level 20: +2 Holy lawful Weapon
Can be summoned (1 + Wis Modifier, min 1) times per day, can't be sold Can be buffed by me as though I had Craft Magic Arms and Armour for normal price Can be repaired by Cure Spells and effects as though it were a living creature


So that's a +6 weapon, or 72,000 gold, rather than the mount of a 20th level adventurer. However, I really don't expect we'll go beyond level 10. So balancing it off of that... if he gets a +2 weapon for free, that's 8,000 gold. Now, I believe a level 10 character should have 49,000 - and this would give him 8,000 on top of that. On the other hand, he wouldn't have his mount. Any ideas on whether this is a fair tradeoff?

Seatbelt
2007-04-30, 10:29 PM
I'm kind of underwhelmed by the +2 holy lawful weapon thing. I'd rather have the mount and a GMWd' lance. More situational, but more hurt.

Jack Mann
2007-04-30, 10:41 PM
If he picks this, he doesn't get his mount. Frankly, I don't think he's getting the better of that bargain...

It skews WbL somewhat, but the extra power he gains through gear is more than made up for by the loss of his mount.

Quietus
2007-04-30, 11:13 PM
This guy doesn't really seem to care much about his mount - he's more of a foot soldier type player, prefers to be rather straightforward about combat. He's also not a great roleplayer, but I'm thinking that's more a practice thing, and my campaigns tend to encourage that.

So, after having sat down and compared it a bit more to what a Paladin normally gets, and what they would lose, I don't think that this, crunch-wise, would unbalance things, particularly considering I tend to play a bit loose with the WBL stuff anyway. So now the problem is just with fluff; where Outsiders are pretty commonly the personifications of good/evil, we're playing in my homebrew world, where dragons take that place instead. Outsiders exist, but the fluff of this ability is that it's crafted for him by Good Outsiders... which he won't really come in contact with.

But if I place a masterwork longsword in some treasure they gain at level 4 or 5, and make it clearly connected to Heironeous (Perhaps a symbol in the pommel, or something to that effect), and then allow him to connect that with this ability, forging a contract with the outsiders with the sword as a medium, and thus physically "give" him this class ability - does that seem too contrived?

Jack Mann
2007-04-30, 11:23 PM
Not at all.

Remember, though, that you can change the fluff however you want. You could even have it granted by good dragons, if you wanted. You can make it fit into your campaign however you want.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-30, 11:23 PM
No.

It seems convenient, yes, but it's still believable. Holy relics have their ways of finding people who would use them for their own ends.

Making the weapon slightly intelligent (say, Ego ~3, so empathic but not telepathic) would further the plausibility of that.

Quietus
2007-04-30, 11:29 PM
Jack -I considered that, but this player wants this option specifically for the flavor of it, and so changing the fluff would alter what he thought he was getting, possibly making it something they didn't want.

Fax - I was considering that. I'm just not 100% up on my intelligent magic item rules... I'll have to poke around that end of my DMG a bit and see what it's got.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-30, 11:31 PM
I'd be tempted to give the sword an ego and a minor power.
Maybe he could start off with it, a gift from the church or inherited?
At first, it would just be a talking sword (or whatever), and refuse to grant its wielder any powers. As he leveld though, the sword would trust him more and grant him greater properties.

You could even play it as an NPC at low levels, (and the high ones), giving plot important hints, making critical knowledge roles, etc.

[edit]
Let the player ultimately decide how he wants to do it, of course.

Jack Mann
2007-04-30, 11:34 PM
Here you go (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/intelligentItems.htm). If you can contrive to remove a couple of thousand gp from his gold, you're good, and he gets a minor power for his weapon.

Of course, you could even remove the lesser power, and in that case, I wouldn't even charge him the extra thousand, since he isn't getting any strong mechanical advantage from it.

Quietus
2007-04-30, 11:40 PM
Was just looking up the Intelligent Item rules actually... reading over them and such. I'm thinking that making it empathic won't really change anything, but it WOULD give the item cool flavor - I do like that idea. As for lesser powers, that depends a lot on how the character ends up. If I think it would be appropriate, then I'll apply that then. I won't end up cutting from his loot, because that would just end up being a split loss among the party, plus I don't think making the sword empathic, and possibly giving it a minor ability (a few skill ranks, or possibly Bless, only used when doing something/acting in such a way that Heironeous would approve) would really tip the balance in any huge way.