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weaseldust
2015-07-12, 07:17 PM
Strength Domain

I didnít give this archetype much more than bonus proficiencies at 1st level because the ones it gets are very good. With respect to the Channel Divinity, I hope that carrying ten times as much isnít too big an increase. It lets you carry loads on the order of a ton, which I think is appropriate for magically enhanced strength.

EDIT: I toned down the bonus proficiencies. Before, you got Athletics in addition to your other skills, and strength save proficiency on top of charisma save proficiency.

Since the current solution is somewhat unconventional in replacing a class save, you might prefer the following variant: Athletics can no longer be chosen as a Cleric skill and you cannot swap proficiency in charisma saves out for proficiency in strength saves, but you gain the ability to roll a d6 and add the result to any strength check or save a number of times per long rest equal to your wisdom modifier.

As a worshipper of a god of physical might, you are dedicated to performing feats of strength and despise weakness. You are granted various magical abilities related to using, bestowing, or depleting athletic ability. For you, their somatic components tend to involve flexing, shadow boxing, or pounding the floor until it shakes.

Bonus Proficiencies (Level 1)
You gain proficiency in the use of heavy armour and all heavy melee weapons.

Further, you may add Athletics to the list of Cleric skills to choose from, and you may choose to have proficiency in strength saving throws instead of charisma saving throws.

Mighty Voice (Level 1)
You may use the voice-amplifying effect of the cantrip Thaumaturgy at any time, without expending an action to cast it.

Channel Divinity: Beast of Burden (Level 2)
As a bonus action, you may expend one use of your Channel Divinity and touch a creature; for one minute, their carrying capacity increases tenfold and they can lift, push and drag objects up to ten times more than the usual weight, so long as those objects are free to move and are not part of any larger object.

Burst of Strength (Level 6)
Whenever you start your turn grappled or restrained, you may expend your reaction and a use of your Channel Divinity to end the effect. If you were restrained by a physical device, you break it. Further, whenever an effect would forcibly move you some distance or knock you prone, you may use your reaction and Channel Divinity to remain still and upright; if the effect was the result of a melee attack, the attacker is instead pushed backwards the distance they attempted to push you, or knocked prone if they attempted to knock you prone.

Divine Strike (Level 8)
You may add d8 magical bludgeoning damage to one hit with a melee weapon or unarmed strike per turn. This increases to 2d8 at level 14.

Overpowering Might (Level 17)
When you hit a creature with a melee attack, you may use your reaction to attempt to shove or grapple it, regardless of its size.


Domain Spells:

Level 1: Earth Tremor, Jump
Level 3: Enlarge/Reduce, Ray of Enfeeblement
Level 5: Haste, Slow
Level 7: Dominate Beast, Stoneskin
Level 9: Bigbyís Hand, Destructive Wave


Travel Domain

This archetype gets quite a few abilities, but they are mostly movement oriented and pretty much necessary to capture the concept properly. The immunity to falling damage at level 17 could get a bit silly, but most characters at that level can survive arbitrarily high falls anyway, so itís not a big increase in silliness. I think itís fitting for the subclass to be able to avoid damage from tumbles down cliff faces, pit traps, or waterfalls.

As a worshipper of a god of travel, you are devoted to exploration, self-sufficiency, and the protection of fellow travellers from the manifold dangers of the road. You have various abilities, either directly from your god or just as a result of being exceptionally well-travelled yourself, which relate to getting about at speed, providing for yourself on the way, and avoiding hazards and impediments to movement.

Proficient Explorer (Level 1)
You gain proficiency in the Survival skill and may add your proficiency bonus to all checks to climb, swim and jump. You move 50% faster overland than normal and up to 7 companions can do the same while you are present.

Burst of Speed (Level 1)
You may use either the Dash action or the Disengage action as a bonus action a number of times per day equal to your wisdom modifier.

Channel Divinity: Avoid Pitfalls (Level 2)
As a bonus action, you may expend your Channel Divinity and touch a creature; for one minute, they are resistant to damage from falling, opportunity attacks, and traps.

Indefatigable Explorer (Level 6)
As a bonus action, you may expend one use of your Channel Divinity to grant any one of the following four abilities to yourself or a creature you touch, with a duration of 10 minutes:


You can hold your breath for up to 5 minutes and have a swim speed equal to your movement.
You have a climb speed equal to your movement.
You cannot be slowed by non-magical difficult terrain.
You have advantage on checks and saves against being restrained.

Divine Strike (Level 8)
You may add d8 damage of the same type dealt by your weapon to one hit with the weapon per turn. This increases to 2d8 at level 14.

Unstoppable Explorer (Level 17)
You are immune to damage from falling, opportunity attacks, and traps.


Domain Spells:

Level 1: Comprehend Languages, Longstrider
Level 3: Knock, Spider Climb
Level 5: Fly, Phantom Steed
Level 7: Dimension Door, Freedom of Movement
Level 9: Passwall, Tree Stride


Magic Domain

This archetype can also serve as a cut-price Mystic Theurge. It gets much more flexibility in its domain spells than most domains do, so I hope the rest of the subclass is restrained enough to keep it balanced.

EDIT: I changed Upwelling Magic - before, it was the same as the wizard's arcane recovery. I also changed Arcane Absorption - before, it let you permanently add learned spells to the list of spells you can prepare.

EDIT2: I cut the ability to replace your domain spells when you gain more. Now you can only replace spells using your Channel Divinity.

As a worshipper of a god of magic, you become able to understand, manipulate, and counter the arcane arts in ways denied to most clerics. You can learn or be gifted some of the spells usually studied only by wizards, and may find yourself adopting wizardly eccentricities to match.

Arcane Proficiency (Level 1)
You gain proficiency in the Arcana skill. When you learn cantrips at this level and later you may choose from wizard cantrips as well as cleric cantrips, but wisdom is your casting ability for them all. Additionally, for the purpose of using magic items your cleric levels count as wizard levels.

Upwelling Magic (Level 1)
Once per day, when you finish a short rest, you may recover a single level 1 spell slot. At level 5, when you use this ability, you may instead recover a number of spell slots of combined level no greater than two. The cap on the combined level of the slots you can recover increases by one again at levels 9, 13, and 17.

Channel Divinity: Arcane Absorption (Level 2)
Over the course of 1 hour of study, you may use your Channel Divinity to learn how to cast a spell from a scroll or spellbook, provided it is of a level you can cast. Once you do so, you have it prepared for the rest of the day, and when you next prepare spells, so long as it is of level no higher than 5, you may choose for it to replace any one of your domain spells other than Identify, Magic Weapon, or Counterspell. If you do not replace a domain spell with it at that time then you lose the ability to cast it.

Turn Aside Magic (Level 6)
As an action, you may expend a spell slot to become resistant to damage from magical weapons and from spells of level no greater than the slot expended for one minute. Maintaining this effect requires your Concentration.

Potent Spellcasting (Level 8)
You may add your wisdom modifier to the damage you deal with cleric and wizard cantrips.

Turn Back Magic (Level 17)
When you take damage from a spell or magic weapon while your Turn Aside Magic is in effect, your attacker takes the half of the damage you resisted.


Domain Spells:

Level 1: Identify and any one wizard spell of a level you can cast
Level 3: Magic Weapon and any one wizard spell of a level you can cast
Level 5: Counterspell and any one wizard spell of a level you can cast
Level 7: Any two wizard spells of levels you can cast
Level 9: Any two wizard spells of levels you can cast

Wisdom remains your casting ability even for spells from the wizard list.

PotatoGolem
2015-07-12, 08:52 PM
Strength and Travel seem perfectly fair- I'd allow them as-is. They're also super flavorful, which is a big plus.

Magic, OTOH, is too strong. As you pointed out, you have phenomenal flexibility in domain spells. You also have the ability to add to your class list like a wizard, for even more versatility. Finally, you get a pretty fantastic spell-recovery system. This is many of the benefits of a wizard on the cleric chassis. Needs some toning down.

Takewo
2015-07-13, 03:46 AM
I've just got a couple of questions:


Bonus Proficiencies (Level 1)
You gain proficiency in the Athletics skill, with strength saves, and in the use of heavy armour, all heavy melee weapons, and unarmed strikes.

Isn't everybody proficient with their unarmed strikes?


Burst of Strength (Level 6)
Whenever you start your turn grappled or restrained, you may expend your reaction and a use of your Channel Divinity to end the effect.

Aren't reactions actions that you take on someone else's turn?

Gr7mm Bobb
2015-07-13, 07:43 AM
I've just got a couple of questions:



Isn't everybody proficient with their unarmed strikes?

Yes, as per the errata. My own group has that bundled down as a specific 'simple weapon' so if someone has prof with all simple weapons, they have proficiency in unarmed.



Aren't reactions actions that you take on someone else's turn?

Not always, there are some abilities that'll eat your reaction to do stuff on your turn, they are few and far between. A reaction is this editions version of an immediate action from 3.x (can be done whenever).

weaseldust
2015-07-13, 01:59 PM
Strength and Travel seem perfectly fair- I'd allow them as-is. They're also super flavorful, which is a big plus.

Thanks! That's exactly the reaction I always hope for.


Magic, OTOH, is too strong. As you pointed out, you have phenomenal flexibility in domain spells. You also have the ability to add to your class list like a wizard, for even more versatility. Finally, you get a pretty fantastic spell-recovery system. This is many of the benefits of a wizard on the cleric chassis. Needs some toning down.

Fair enough. I just edited the abilities to recover spell slots and learn new spells so they're weaker but keep the same character. I think they both suit the archetype though, especially the second, so I'm committed to keeping them in some form. It's worth noting that wizard archetypes tend to be pretty strong; I think I can avoid having this cleric outshine any of them.



Isn't everybody proficient with their unarmed strikes?


Yes, as per the errata.

Thanks for pointing that out. I just deleted that clause.

PotatoGolem
2015-07-13, 05:07 PM
It seems relatively balanced to me now. I'd be interested in seeing playtest results for it, but it looks fair on paper. Great job on these!

Kidbuu51
2015-07-14, 02:57 AM
Ten fold is not ten times more, its x to the tenth power. Which is nuts.

Takewo
2015-07-14, 06:15 AM
Ten fold is not ten times more, its x to the tenth power. Which is nuts.

That's not what the Cambridge dictionary says (nor any other that I can think of).

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/tenfold

Amnoriath
2015-07-14, 10:59 AM
1. Strength for the most part is good but strength saves as a simple bonus proficiency is just way too much. It may be a lesser save but a save none the less and it is arguably a very valuable one for melee. The Beast of Burden is also a lot as is as no other thing in the game short of 9th level spells can recreate the effect. Lower the value to double and give advantage in certain strength checks instead. This keeps weight numbers reasonable while being able to do something mechanically useful with rolls. Other than that maybe clean up the second Channel Divinity a bit and I think you mean bonus action for your capstone.
2. Travel is fantastic and is quite utilitarian without being the action/speed economy hog like it was in 3rd. The only thing I would change is for them not to be immune to damage from reaction attacks. Not only is the wording technically opportunity attacks it makes them a bit too anti-martial. Instead for the Channel Divinity power give disadvantage on opportunity attacks. Then for the capstone you don't provoke opportunity attacks due to movement.
3. Magic domain is quite problematic. The spell list because it is your choice is the best you can ask it to be of any other. Then you have a Channel Divinity power that changes that choice for you. It seems a bit too convenient of a combination, especially for a full caster. I also think this is a little to anti-martial as it penalizes those who obtained magical weapons. Maybe instead they simply lose their magical property instead.

weaseldust
2015-07-14, 03:13 PM
Strength for the most part is good but strength saves as a simple bonus proficiency is just way too much. It may be a lesser save but a save none the less and it is arguably a very valuable one for melee.

I don't see how it's very useful in melee. You can't use it to escape grapples for instance - that's a skill check instead (which this subclass is also good at, but allowing one skill proficiency is pretty standard for cleric subclasses). It's really only useful for defending against a small number of spells, most of which are of low levels. Or maybe the DM could call for a strength save to avoid falling down a pit or something, but I think by the rules that should be a skill check instead and you only get saving throws against things that specifically call for them.


The Beast of Burden is also a lot as is as no other thing in the game short of 9th level spells can recreate the effect. Lower the value to double and give advantage in certain strength checks instead. This keeps weight numbers reasonable while being able to do something mechanically useful with rolls.

I don't think just double would ever be worth using. Even multiplying by ten, a character with strength 20 can only lift 6000 pounds, which is the weight of a fairly small adult elephant. If I were to make it a spell, I'd probably peg it at 2nd level. I can't see it being a problem.

Being able to give advantage on strength checks would make sense, but you can give advantage on one strength check just by using the Help action. You can cast Guidance too. And you can't use your Channel Divinity more than once per short rest, so in situations where everyone needs help (e.g. crossing a swollen river) it would be useless. You might as well just have the barbarian (or whoever) carry everyone across.


Other than that maybe clean up the second Channel Divinity a bit and I think you mean bonus action for your capstone.

I know I do tend to be a bit wordy. I think I'll leave Burst of Strength be for now because I don't think it's unclear and I don't want to make it so, but if you do think it's unclear please let me know.

I did mean reaction. It's a bit unconventional, and a bonus action would probably work, but I tend to use reactions when the ability is made possible by something else that happens. Making it a reaction is possibly slightly more costly for this subclass because it doesn't get an in-combat use for its bonus action.


Travel is fantastic and is quite utilitarian without being the action/speed economy hog like it was in 3rd. The only thing I would change is for them not to be immune to damage from reaction attacks. Not only is the wording technically opportunity attacks it makes them a bit too anti-martial. Instead for the Channel Divinity power give disadvantage on opportunity attacks. Then for the capstone you don't provoke opportunity attacks due to movement.

I'm glad you think it works! Thanks for the correction on the terminology, I'm terrible at that.

Are there opportunity attacks that aren't provoked by movement? I know for instance that the attack the Sentinel feat lets you make with your reaction doesn't count as an opportunity attack. So if I just change the wording, is that enough? I know that resistance is a little bit better than disadvantage in most cases (disadvantage only cuts your expected damage by half or more if your chance of hitting is 1/2 or less), but I prefer to keep that ability all about resistances rather than two kinds of resistance and a third ability.


Magic domain is quite problematic. The spell list because it is your choice is the best you can ask it to be of any other. Then you have a Channel Divinity power that changes that choice for you. It seems a bit too convenient of a combination, especially for a full caster.

I fully admit that it will require a lot of care to balance, but since my ideal for the subclass is that it is good at learning diverse spells I'm pretty much committed to trying to work around it. A fixed list of spells would be too boring. And it really does miss out on a lot compared to all the other cleric subclasses in return.


I also think this is a little to anti-martial as it penalizes those who obtained magical weapons. Maybe instead they simply lose their magical property instead.

As I see it, resisting all spell damage and damage by only some weapons isn't anti-martial, especially since most martials will carry a sidearm of some kind. I'm also thinking of the subclass as a PC, in which case being anti-martial doesn't matter all that much.


All in all, I'm sorry I've come down against most of your suggestions, but you were very helpful in making me check some of my assumptions, so thank you anyway.

Amnoriath
2015-07-14, 03:49 PM
I don't see how it's very useful in melee. You can't use it to escape grapples for instance - that's a skill check instead (which this subclass is also good at, but allowing one skill proficiency is pretty standard for cleric subclasses). It's really only useful for defending against a small number of spells, most of which are of low levels. Or maybe the DM could call for a strength save to avoid falling down a pit or something, but I think by the rules that should be a skill check instead and you only get saving throws against things that specifically call for them.



I don't think just double would ever be worth using. Even multiplying by ten, a character with strength 20 can only lift 6000 pounds, which is the weight of a fairly small adult elephant. If I were to make it a spell, I'd probably peg it at 2nd level. I can't see it being a problem.

Being able to give advantage on strength checks would make sense, but you can give advantage on one strength check just by using the Help action. You can cast Guidance too. And you can't use your Channel Divinity more than once per short rest, so in situations where everyone needs help (e.g. crossing a swollen river) it would be useless. You might as well just have the barbarian (or whoever) carry everyone across.



I know I do tend to be a bit wordy. I think I'll leave Burst of Strength be for now because I don't think it's unclear and I don't want to make it so, but if you do think it's unclear please let me know.

I did mean reaction. It's a bit unconventional, and a bonus action would probably work, but I tend to use reactions when the ability is made possible by something else that happens. Making it a reaction is possibly slightly more costly for this subclass because it doesn't get an in-combat use for its bonus action.



I'm glad you think it works! Thanks for the correction on the terminology, I'm terrible at that.

Are there opportunity attacks that aren't provoked by movement? I know for instance that the attack the Sentinel feat lets you make with your reaction doesn't count as an opportunity attack. So if I just change the wording, is that enough? I know that resistance is a little bit better than disadvantage in most cases (disadvantage only cuts your expected damage by half or more if your chance of hitting is 1/2 or less), but I prefer to keep that ability all about resistances rather than two kinds of resistance and a third ability.



I fully admit that it will require a lot of care to balance, but since my ideal for the subclass is that it is good at learning diverse spells I'm pretty much committed to trying to work around it. A fixed list of spells would be too boring. And it really does miss out on a lot compared to all the other cleric subclasses in return.



As I see it, resisting all spell damage and damage by only some weapons isn't anti-martial, especially since most martials will carry a sidearm of some kind. I'm also thinking of the subclass as a PC, in which case being anti-martial doesn't matter all that much.


All in all, I'm sorry I've come down against most of your suggestions, but you were very helpful in making me check some of my assumptions, so thank you anyway.

1. It comes up against in a few different spells or specials that would otherwise lock you down, push you around, or render you prone. It also comes up in a few creature's attack routines to render you prone or push you around. It is quite vital actually because it fends off some of the big field control spells.(entangle, evard's black tentacles, gust of wind,..etc). So it keeps you mobile and on course. I would rate it 4th in the most valuable of the saves. I am not saying don't have it just don't make it part of a level 1 feature spread.
2. Except how much damage would throwing a small elephant would deal? If you are that strong many housing could be ripped by your strength as well. You see it is an ability that expects abuse to be useful, so therefore it is a bad ability.
3. Mechanically it doesn't work at all though. Reactions occur outside your turn and you only get 1. So if you have attacked as a reaction you already used it.
4. At base there aren't any, but feats and arguably some class features do add ones that don't provoke because of movement(Mage Slayer, Retaliation..etc).
5. The problem though it is very close to the 3rd edition Archivist and with the flexibility of the spell slot system with enough resources this could have terrifying versatility as it is a full caster. Now if it could use magic items more easily and maybe gain some more spell or even cantrip choices as class feature than it could be managed better and gives better dynamics.
6. But it basically is penalizing characters with their rewards.

Ziegander
2015-07-14, 04:19 PM
1) I adore the Strength domain with golden, fiery passion. BUT. I too worry that the first level is a tad overpowered. It's better than Nature, for sure, and I'd say it's comparable, if possibly still a little better than Tempest, a strong 1st level. I love it, but perhaps just one or the other of Athletics or Strength saves. Dat Mighty Voice doh. I love it.

2) I think Indefatigable Explorer offers a lot too many benefits to the Cleric himself and that the ability to confer one ability for 10 minutes is just gratuitous. Perhaps if you simply allowed the Cleric to Channel Divinity to choose one of the powers and he and all allies within 30ft gain that benefit for the next 10 minutes?

3) Add me to the people that think the Magic domain getting the player's choice of Wizard spells is way too much power and versatility to allow. And changing them to new ones as you level up? Absolutely not. I realize it was even more versatile to begin with (what with the highly more powerful version of Arcane Absorption you originally posted), but in my opinion, it's still not acceptable.

weaseldust
2015-07-14, 04:46 PM
It comes up against in a few different spells or specials that would otherwise lock you down, push you around, or render you prone. It also comes up in a few creature's attack routines to render you prone or push you around. It is quite vital actually because it fends off some of the big field control spells.(entangle, evard's black tentacles, gust of wind,..etc). So it keeps you mobile and on course. I would rate it 4th in the most valuable of the saves. I am not saying don't have it just don't make it part of a level 1 feature spread.

I just can't see it coming up more than once or twice a day. I also don't think NPCs tend to use those spells much, except maybe Entangle. However, looking at it I have given this subclass more at 1st level than other subclasses get. It's somewhat balanced by the merely utilitarian Channel Divinity at level 2 (more on that below), but I will alter it so that Athletics replaces another skill from the Cleric class and strength save proficiency replaces charisma save proficiency.


Except how much damage would throwing a small elephant would deal? If you are that strong many housing could be ripped by your strength as well. You see it is an ability that expects abuse to be useful, so therefore it is a bad ability.

Nothing in the rules says you can throw what you can lift. Nor do they say being able to lift 6000 pounds means being able to destroy buildings. The rules about lifting cover loose objects only. Nonetheless, I'll add a disclaimer that it does only apply to loose objects.


Mechanically it doesn't work at all though. Reactions occur outside your turn and you only get 1. So if you have attacked as a reaction you already used it.

You can use your reaction any time. If you use it in your turn after you attack and you regret not having an opportunity attack later that round, that's just tough.


At base there aren't any, but feats and arguably some class features do add ones that don't provoke because of movement(Mage Slayer, Retaliation..etc).

I'm not sure about Mage Slayer, but Retaliation only says it uses your reaction, not that it's an opportunity attack.


The problem though it is very close to the 3rd edition Archivist and with the flexibility of the spell slot system with enough resources this could have terrifying versatility as it is a full caster. Now if it could use magic items more easily and maybe gain some more spell or even cantrip choices as class feature than it could be managed better and gives better dynamics.

I hope the concentration mechanic, fewer spell slots and generally toned down spells will prevent this becoming anything like the Archivist. I did cut out the ability to change domain spells without using your Channel Divinity, which I meant to do before. It can already choose more wizard cantrips and uses magic items like a wizard; I'm not sure what else you expect from it on that front.


But it basically is penalizing characters with their rewards.

I agree that for a DM to use this subclass to do that would be harsh and potentially unfair, but it's intended for PCs. A DM can do plenty of worse things, and no-one who wants to turn their players' rewards against them needs justification from my having written this subclass. That said, if they did it just the once, it might actually be a neat trick that the players would appreciate. "The cleric is protected by the god of magic, so in this case your magic weapons hinder more than help" sounds reasonable and potentially fun, so long as it only happens the once.

Amnoriath
2015-07-15, 12:36 PM
I just can't see it coming up more than once or twice a day. I also don't think NPCs tend to use those spells much, except maybe Entangle. However, looking at it I have given this subclass more at 1st level than other subclasses get. It's somewhat balanced by the merely utilitarian Channel Divinity at level 2 (more on that below), but I will alter it so that Athletics replaces another skill from the Cleric class and strength save proficiency replaces charisma save proficiency.



Nothing in the rules says you can throw what you can lift. Nor do they say being able to lift 6000 pounds means being able to destroy buildings. The rules about lifting cover loose objects only. Nonetheless, I'll add a disclaimer that it does only apply to loose objects.



You can use your reaction any time. If you use it in your turn after you attack and you regret not having an opportunity attack later that round, that's just tough.



I'm not sure about Mage Slayer, but Retaliation only says it uses your reaction, not that it's an opportunity attack.



I hope the concentration mechanic, fewer spell slots and generally toned down spells will prevent this becoming anything like the Archivist. I did cut out the ability to change domain spells without using your Channel Divinity, which I meant to do before. It can already choose more wizard cantrips and uses magic items like a wizard; I'm not sure what else you expect from it on that front.



I agree that for a DM to use this subclass to do that would be harsh and potentially unfair, but it's intended for PCs. A DM can do plenty of worse things, and no-one who wants to turn their players' rewards against them needs justification from my having written this subclass. That said, if they did it just the once, it might actually be a neat trick that the players would appreciate. "The cleric is protected by the god of magic, so in this case your magic weapons hinder more than help" sounds reasonable and potentially fun, so long as it only happens the once.

1. Fair enough
2. I didn't say destroy. I said ripped up or up rooted would be another way to say it. The point is that it would be intuitive that is you could lift it you can throw it to some extent even if it is right in front of you. As such this is the only way for it to be mechanically useful otherwise all it can do is carry heavier objects for a small task and is therefore a bad feature. It is kind of like the 3.5 Necrocarnate. This PrC didn't get any more essentia to power it soulmelds in its progression, instead it got Necrocarnum Harvest in which you could harvest a scaling amount of essentia out of any kind of dead creature. As such it was up to the DM whether or not they got the chance to do so for most of its career but even just a few bodies allowed them to gain a noticeably larger amount of essentia then a full Incarnate. So for this feature to be noticeable it has to be used in ways I described and is a big sign of a bad feature.
3. I did say arguably. Unfortunately 5e is littered with either lack of specificity or it tries to explain things in which you don't need to reference anything but it link in properly with something else even though intuitively it should. So because of the varied of interpretation being specific is the best way to ensure intention.
4. Well, obviously it is a different context so stacking isn't likely. What I was talking about was the versatility. Not only does a Cleric have more spells known for the day than a Wizard you give them the ability to change out more of them and with magical resources through out the day. The Pact of the Tome Warlock is on this borderline because it can log in any ritual, but it is still a ritual and can be interrupted rather easily as well as a significant amount of time.
5. Yes, but why should the base weapons all of sudden be less effective if the damage isn't actually magic? Is not the magic on a weapon an enhancement itself and not magical energy itself that damages. It makes more sense if it just cancels.

eleazzaar
2015-07-15, 05:22 PM
Love the flavor of the Strength Domain!

I'm not very familiar with the Cleric, so I don't have much to say about ballance, but...


Indefatigable Explorer (Level 6)
You gain the following four abilities:
...
- You cannot be slowed by difficult terrain.

The poor ranger gets that at Level 8, and it only works on non-magical difficult terrain. Doesn't seem right to out-ranger the ranger in the one area he is strong: exploration.

weaseldust
2015-07-15, 07:35 PM
As such this is the only way for it to be mechanically useful otherwise all it can do is carry heavier objects for a small task and is therefore a bad feature. It is kind of like the 3.5 Necrocarnate...

I hadn't heard of the Necrocarnate (the more esoteric 3.5 stuff is beyond me for now), but I get the point. I think being able to carry heavy things is fairly broadly useful, e.g. for barricading doors, carrying other creatures away from danger, forming a choke point by moving a boulder, stealing loads of gold, getting your wagon out of the mire, and so on. One of the more niche Channel Divinities, yes, but that's necessary for balance reasons.


What I was talking about was the versatility. Not only does a Cleric have more spells known for the day than a Wizard you give them the ability to change out more of them and with magical resources through out the day. The Pact of the Tome Warlock is on this borderline because it can log in any ritual, but it is still a ritual and can be interrupted rather easily as well as a significant amount of time.

My subclass still only gets 7 permanent freely chosen extra spells over the course of its career. It's still going to mostly rely on the Cleric list, which is deliberately designed to be less versatile than the Wizard list. It will either try to use the extra wizard spells to specialise in one way, in which case it has about as much extra versatility as the Light or Knowledge Cleric, or it will spread the extra spells around and suffer from a lack of focus. At least, that's the idea. If I ever get to playtest it and it turns out to have gained too much I'll revise it then.



The poor ranger gets that at Level 8, and it only works on non-magical difficult terrain. Doesn't seem right to out-ranger the ranger in the one area he is strong: exploration.

Thanks for pointing that out. The Ranger does get some useful exploration abilities the Travel Cleric doesn't, but I'll add in a "non-magical" to even things out a bit.