PDA

View Full Version : Mystic Theurge



Innis Cabal
2007-05-02, 11:31 PM
{table]Level|B.A.B|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9|0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
1st|+0|+0|+0|+2|-|3 1|3 1
2nd|+1|+0|+0|+3|-|4 2|4 2
3rd|+1|+1|+1|+3|-|4 2 1|4 2 1
4th|+2|+1|+1|+4|-|4 3 2|4 3 2
5th|+2|+1|+1|+4|-|4 3 2 1|4 3 2 1
6th|+3|+2|+2|+5|-|4 4 3 2|4 4 3 2
7th|+3|+2|+2|+5|-|4 4 3 2 1|4 4 3 2 1
8th|+4|+2|+2|+6|-|4 4 3 3 2|4 4 3 3 2
9th|+4|+3|+3|+6|-|4 4 4 3 2 1|4 4 4 3 2 1
10th|+5|+3|+3|+7|-|4 4 4 3 2 1|4 4 4 3 2 1
11th|+5|+4|+4|+7|-|4 4 4 4 3 2 1|4 4 4 4 3 2 1
12th|+6/+1|+4|+4|+8|-|4 4 4 4 3 3 2|4 4 4 4 3 3 2
13th|+6/+1|+4|+4|+8|-|4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1|4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1
14th|+7/+2|+5|+5|+9|-|4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2|4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2
15th|+7/+2|+5|+5|+9|-|4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1|4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1
16th|+8/+3|+5|+5|+10|-|4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2|4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2
17th|+8/+3|+6|+6|+10|-|4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1|4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1
18th|+9/+4|+6|+6|+11|-|4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2|4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2
19th|+9/+4|+6|+6|+11|-|4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3|4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3
20th|+10/+5|+6|+6|+12|-|4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4|4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4[/table]

Abilities: Charisma, Intelligence, and Wisdom are important to a Mystic Theurges spell casting abilities, while constitution and dexterity help them live longer in combat.
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d4

Class Skills
Concentration, Craft, Knowledge(All skills, taken individually), Profession, Spell-craft
Skill Points at 1st level: (6 + Int modifier) X 4
Skill Points at Each Additonal Level: 6+ Int modifier

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Mystic Theurge’s are proficient with all simple weapons. Mystic Theurges are not proficient with armor or shields.

Spells: A Mystic Theurge casts both arcane and divine spell, drawn from the wizard/sorcerer spell list and the cleric spell list respectively. A Mystic Theurge must prepare his spells ahead of time.
To learn, prepare, or cast a spell he must have an intelligence (for arcane spells) or wisdom (for divine spells) score equal to 10 + the spell level. The DC for saving throws against a Mystic Theurge is 10 + the spell level + the Mystic Theurge’s charisma modifier.
Unlike a sorcerer or bard the Mystic Theurge may know any number of arcane spells (See page 179 in the PH). They must prepare their spells in advance by getting a full 8 hours rest and spending one hour studying their spell book. They do not gain divine spells through books or scrolls, nor do they prepare them through study. Instead they meditate or pray for their spells, receiving them through their own strength of faith or as divine inspiration. Each mystic theurge must pick an hour not dedicated to studying for their arcane spells, normally an hour after reading their spell book, to pray for their spells. He may prepare any spell from the Cleric Spell list

Cybren
2007-05-02, 11:33 PM
Is it some sort of zen version of the class where all levels occupy the same time and it is only our perception of the passage of experience that causes the illusion of seperate levels?

Innis Cabal
2007-05-02, 11:37 PM
its a class that i am to tired to fill in right now so i just started the table, and its going to be overpowered....full progession for both class's with no special abilities....just dont want to bother with typing it up tonight. Made it becuase of the "Making the MT more useful thread" Becuase somehow casting both arcane and divine spells arnt useful

Magnor Criol
2007-05-03, 02:44 AM
Is it some sort of zen version of the class where all levels occupy the same time and it is only our perception of the passage of experience that causes the illusion of seperate levels?
That's what so mystic about it. =p

I'm interested in seeing this when you do post it. The MT has always intruiged me, and as such reworks for it pique my curiosity.

Caelestion
2007-05-03, 03:24 AM
I simply run a version where your level in Mystic Theurge also gives you armour familiarity at MTh level -1, e.g. a Wiz 3/Clr3/MTh 1 can cast all his cantrips in armour and a Wiz 3/Drd 3/Mth 10 can cast all his spells in non-metal armour.

Threeshades
2007-05-03, 04:41 AM
its a class that i am to tired to fill in right now so i just started the table, and its going to be overpowered....full progession for both class's with no special abilities....just dont want to bother with typing it up tonight. Made it becuase of the "Making the MT more useful thread" Becuase somehow casting both arcane and divine spells arnt useful

You dont really need a table for the mystic theurge. It levels up just like sorcerer, only that instead of sorcerer spells it gets the spells of the chosen two classes.

And I say the Theurge doesnt need to be better. Maybe being able to cast both arcane and divine spells doesnt make you more powerful than being able to cast only one of them. But you get much more versatile. Okay you are always three caster levels behind a specific caster, but you get a crapload of spells, you dont have to chose arcane spells from a too wide range because you have some of them in your divine casting arsenal, And you can both cast horrible attack spells and heal yourself.

Did I mention that you get an assload of spells per day?

Caelestion
2007-05-03, 05:22 AM
Well, on a strict optimisation point of view, lost caster levels = the end of the world. Do not pass Go, do not collect 200.

(This ain't my view incidentally, but it does seem to be the prevailing theme here.)

Lapak
2007-05-03, 10:09 AM
The basic argument regarding the MT's usefulness runs as follows:

The most important limitation on character effectiveness in D&D combat - particularly for a full spellcaster - is not versatility, but ability to apply effective power in a minimum amount of turns; speed rather than endurance is the critical factor. MTs are no faster at spell-slinging than regular casters, and each spell they do sling is less potent than an equal-level single-style caster; therefore, they are less powerful than said single-style caster.

These assumptions are built around the standard encounter structure: you should only face X number of encounters between rest periods, the average encounter will have an average CR of around your level, and so on. With fewer higher-CR encounters, the MT is even weaker; with more lower-CR encounters, the MT begins to shine. It also assumes a standard party, with all roles filled: if you already have a divine caster, adding another weaker one who is also a weaker arcane caster may not have as much benefit as adding a full arcane caster. In a non-standard party (say, one where the MT is the only caster) the MT becomes a more viable option again. On the flip side, if the party is full of casters the MT will be overshadowed.

So: in a standard setup, the MT is weak. In other setups, he may be even weaker or he may be a very viable choice as written. I really don't see the need to rewrite it, myself, but you shouldn't let that stop you from doing so.

Threeshades
2007-05-03, 11:24 AM
The basic argument regarding the MT's usefulness runs as follows:

The most important limitation on character effectiveness in D&D combat - particularly for a full spellcaster - is not versatility, but ability to apply effective power in a minimum amount of turns; speed rather than endurance is the critical factor. MTs are no faster at spell-slinging than regular casters, and each spell they do sling is less potent than an equal-level single-style caster; therefore, they are less powerful than said single-style caster.

These assumptions are built around the standard encounter structure: you should only face X number of encounters between rest periods, the average encounter will have an average CR of around your level, and so on. With fewer higher-CR encounters, the MT is even weaker; with more lower-CR encounters, the MT begins to shine. It also assumes a standard party, with all roles filled: if you already have a divine caster, adding another weaker one who is also a weaker arcane caster may not have as much benefit as adding a full arcane caster. In a non-standard party (say, one where the MT is the only caster) the MT becomes a more viable option again. On the flip side, if the party is full of casters the MT will be overshadowed.

So: in a standard setup, the MT is weak. In other setups, he may be even weaker or he may be a very viable choice as written. I really don't see the need to rewrite it, myself, but you shouldn't let that stop you from doing so.

Yet it is cooler.

Oh and I should say it can prepare for every incident, whip out a cleric spell where his wizard spells dont apply.


But at least it's cooler. I like the idea. An 3 lost caster levels is about 1.5 spell level.
And by the way you dont only cast spells while an encounter. Lets say we have a Wizard/Cleric who took necromancy school specialization as a wizard and has the domain of death as a cleric. He gets to create more undead a day. And while an encounter he has some wizard spells to nuke away enemies and afterwards he still has enough spells left to inflict and cure wounds on everyone.

I say cute.


Oh and it's cooler!

Lapak
2007-05-03, 11:27 AM
*snip*
I agree with you. Like I said, I see nothing wrong with the Mystic Theurge as written.

Peregrine
2007-05-03, 12:56 PM
I'd be interested to see how this pans out. :smallsmile: 'Cause so far, we've got basically no hints:


full progession for both class's with no special abilities....

...sounds exactly like the existing MT.

(Which, incidentally, just to weigh in on the debate, I'd love to play some day as a backup caster. If you've already got a full arcane and full divine caster, or maybe even just one of them, you can't go wrong with a mystic theurge to keep the party supplied with utility spells all day, surely?)

Innis Cabal
2007-05-03, 02:21 PM
...i go to bed and go to work...and i get so many reply's on something thats not even stated out....yet i work three days on a tome of battle discipline.....and i get 200 views and no replies.....amazing :). This isnt going to be a PrC....its going to be a full base class...and i know there is nothing wrong with the class i love it to death, running a multi class priest wizard in 2nd ed was nothing short of annoying, but now in 3.5 i can do it and have fun! I still want to know how when i post nothing i get the most views

Telonius
2007-05-03, 02:34 PM
ToB isn't in the OGL, Theurge is.:smallbiggrin:

My DM and I statted up a couple of different versions of an Artificer/Cleric Theurge-like build, here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40479&goto=nextnewest). Mine is kind of bland, but his has some interesting ideas in it. His comes out a spellcasting level below mine does, but I think it makes up for it in crafting power. I'm not sure how you could graft a regular theurge onto it - maybe bonus Metamagic feats along the way? - but I hope it helps.

Innis Cabal
2007-05-03, 04:58 PM
well.....this is just going to be a level 20 wizard/cleric with nothing fancy or special about it....ya over powered but as i have said its not suposed to be serious...more a half jib at the people who think that the mystic theurge is utterly devoid of use and underpowered becuase of the lower DC's and such...when they see this thing i can already here people say "This is to powerful! Full progression, full DC's? Terrible idea Innis, you need to be stripped of rank and privilage and banned from the board!"

brian c
2007-05-03, 05:43 PM
...i go to bed and go to work...and i get so many reply's on something thats not even stated out....yet i work three days on a tome of battle discipline.....and i get 200 views and no replies.....amazing :)

Well, obviously it's because this post was mysterious :smallsmile:

Cybren
2007-05-03, 07:02 PM
one of the reasons the MT is so bad is because no matter how many spells you know you can still only cast one per round. Two if you quicken one, which will be even more expensive due to lack of high level spell slots. Perhaps some class features to cast more spells faster

Innis Cabal
2007-05-03, 07:09 PM
i dont think the class needs special features...the MT isnt bad, its very powerful with the right build, even if it can cast one spell a round thats all you need to do. Sure its not optimal but you can take that Min/Max crap and take it to the dump becuase its all garbage

Cybren
2007-05-03, 07:16 PM
I have no idea what you just said.

Innis Cabal
2007-05-03, 07:20 PM
sorry, i have had a really bad virus and i am finally on meds, ill clarify. Mystic Theurges are good if you play them well, they are powerful becuase they have the largest range of spells in the game, so what if they can only cast one at a time, thats no different from other casters. They are not optimal since they lose some things along the way but oh well, optimzation is silly at best, grabage at worst.......better?

jindra34
2007-05-03, 07:21 PM
Will we ever get to see the class????

Innis Cabal
2007-05-03, 07:22 PM
when the meds are pumped out of my system and im not babbling like a moron

Innis Cabal
2007-05-03, 09:47 PM
OK, meds are out, class is in, not what you thought huh? It so simple...told ya....its over powered isnt it?

jindra34
2007-05-03, 09:50 PM
looks good.

Innis Cabal
2007-05-03, 09:52 PM
Thanks! (Darn 10 word min)

brian c
2007-05-03, 09:52 PM
Yeah, it is overpowered... it's basically Gestalt Cleric//Wizard without bonus metamagic feats, a familiar or turn undead. All that those things give you, really, are the ability to use divine feats from turning attempts.

Innis Cabal
2007-05-03, 09:56 PM
i told you it was going to be overpowered

Duskwither
2007-05-04, 01:49 AM
I think it really just depends on the campaign you're running, and the player running the class.

Give this to a munchkin and he'll find ways to give you a headache, undoubtedly. In the hands of a talented powergamer or humble support PC, something like this could really be great for a group that lacks both casters.

The biggest problem, the way I see it, is that this fella's taking the thunder from almost everyone outside of combat. In combat, the guy is still limited to his one or two spells a round.

Caelestion
2007-05-04, 04:39 AM
It's also as boring as all-get-out. Even the humble Sorcerer gets a familiar...

I also don't like the idea that they get full-casting for both types. Maybe you could stagger it slightly, like the True Necromancer does, so that they end up as 15th in both (by 20th), but that they at least get a class ability or two.

Valairn
2007-05-04, 08:56 AM
He's trying to make a point, not wow you with creativity.

Telonius
2007-05-04, 09:29 AM
Yeah, it is overpowered... it's basically Gestalt Cleric//Wizard without bonus metamagic feats, a familiar or turn undead. All that those things give you, really, are the ability to use divine feats from turning attempts.

Well, there are a few more differences. This Theurge also doesn't get any domains, full class skills, d8 hit dice, good fort save, any armor proficiency, or shield proficiency, like a Cleric/Wizard gestalt would. Cleric spell progression is also knocked back to 4/0-level instead of 6/0-level. On the plus side, it does get 6+Int skill points. So I guess it's a little more like a toned-down Wizard/Cloistered Cleric gestalt.

I'm a little confused about the "Charisma" comment under the "Abilities" heading. Since the spell choice is restricted to Cleric spells, Charisma doesn't do a bit of good for casting abilities, does it?

I see this guy as a glass cannon in low levels. Because of the complete lack of armor, he's going to need to be even more careful than a Wizard normally would, at least until he gets a Monk's Belt. He'll still have to put a whole bunch of money into bumping up Wisdom, Intelligence, and other defensive items (Amulet of Natural Armor, Ring of Protection, Bracers of Armor, Gloves of Dexterity...) to keep up. Feat selection would probably be mostly taken up with Metamagics, since they'll benefit both caster lists.

It's still not as strong at Arcane spells as a Wizard would be, becuase of the lack of free Metamagic Feats. And it's not as strong at Divine spells as a Cleric would be, because of the slower spell progression. Still, I think it's a bit more powerful than the current Theurge, because of the full 4 9th-level spells at 20th level.

Innis Cabal
2007-05-04, 02:45 PM
Thanks Valarin. I did try to balance it, if you read closely they need three abilities to make their spells good...not that thats balance or anything. They need CHA becuase thats what affects their DC's. And yes its powerful.....thats the point. The PrC has a balance in that you dont get 9th level spells unless you realyl wiggle them in.....their DC's are as good, and their caster levels at least 3 levels lower then they should...unless you waste two feats..i know i always do.

Telonius
2007-05-04, 03:46 PM
Ah, missed that, thanks for the clarification. So, your Theurge is to have one nasty, nasty case of MAD. Not overpowered at all, IMO.

Roderick_BR
2007-05-04, 04:49 PM
You can practically become a wizard 15/ cleric 15. Yes, you may not get the 9th level spells, but you have both 8th level spells from both cleric and wizard. I think it's very overpowered as it normally is.

And if you manage to get epic, just 5 levels in epic MT give you wizard 20/cleric 20, enabling you to get most epic feats, and when you get the 6th level, becoming a wizard 21/cleric 21, and able to epic spellcasting...

Innis Cabal
2007-05-04, 05:40 PM
i have a build i dont have to go into epic mystic theurge to get epic spells at 21st level, sure i have druid levels but when i am disguised as a banzai bush and cast finger of death on your ass you'll be shocked out of your mind before you fail your fort save

Caelestion
2007-05-04, 08:03 PM
It's still completely boring, no matter how fun dual-classing is. After all, one of the main complaints about the Cleric and Sorcerer is that nothing happens and that they're ripe for prestige classing straight out. I still think there should be more to this class than just tons of spells.

Innis Cabal
2007-05-04, 09:37 PM
well its already over powered....what more would you like to see?

jindra34
2007-05-04, 09:39 PM
well its already over powered....what more would you like to see?
why not give it a familar and drop a max spell per day from each final category (aka you can only get 3 spells per side per level per day tops)... in fact that might be balanced.

Innis Cabal
2007-05-04, 10:55 PM
for a familiar....how about something with a little more umph....like an animal companion and let them cast 2 level 9 spells a day from each?

Roderick_BR
2007-05-04, 11:49 PM
Full base class? That can cast spells from both cleric and wizard lists? And have two lists of spell slots/day!? No sane DM would allow it.
Yeah, you lose the bonus feats, but there's not many you can actually use that you can't get with normal character progression.

Caelestion
2007-05-05, 05:39 AM
Why not keep with the mage theme (d4s, no armour etc.) and insist that he keeps two spell-books, one arcane and one divine, and limit his knowledge of cleric spells to his prayerbook, as granted by his church? You could also impose an ASF chance for using his divine spells in armour. You might also want to consider giving Scribe Scroll at 1st-level.

Also give him a familiar, as per the sorcerer/wizard variant, but not anything like what you suggested. (Two Familiar Spell epic feats...)

You could also slightly stagger spell progression - say, at 3rd, 9th and 15th-level, he doesn't gain an arcane level, and at 6th, 12th and 18th-level, he doesn't gain a divine level. This would give 17th/17th overall at 20th-level.

Innis Cabal
2007-05-05, 03:33 PM
i think what you guys are missing is that this is supposed to be an overpowered cheese class...read the original post after the stats

jindra34
2007-05-05, 03:43 PM
i think what you guys are missing is that this is supposed to be an overpowered cheese class...read the original post after the stats

so were trying to help shape it into something reasonable for future use...

Caelestion
2007-05-05, 04:51 PM
Or you could just give it the 1st-level SQ "Win D&D". Failing that, we're trying to help you produce something that's playable without boring the other players by doing everything.

Innis Cabal
2007-05-05, 06:55 PM
well lowering how many spells it can cast would do it and using the above suggested prayer book limiting them to scribing divine spells like they scribe arcane spells will be a good start. Staggering spells takes away from it IMO and even if this has no cool abilities anyone who wants to cast both 9th level arcane and divine spells wouldnt leave the class. Not only that but a familiar is useless, pure and simple, thats why there are alternative abilities that make you lose it. So you can deleive toch spells, so they can help a little bit in the start of the game, but by the end you dont need them and they become a liability at best

Telonius
2007-05-07, 12:03 PM
i think what you guys are missing is that this is supposed to be an overpowered cheese class...read the original post after the stats

:smallconfused: I thought that was supposed to be sarcasm. This isn't even as powerful as a full Wizard or a full Cleric, let alone an Artificer. If you gave free Spontaneous Metamagic, and some kind of "Quicken Spell" ability that lets it Metamagic a spell for free, then you're getting into overpowered territory. But as it's written, this is not overpowered.

Valairn
2007-05-07, 12:52 PM
IF you were going to balance this class, one need only look at the archivist to realize, this class already exists. There are already extremely cheesy things in DnD, but the MAIN balancing factor of this class is, that he can still only cast one spell at a time. Yes he can heal, but he can't heal and destroy the oppossing party at the same time. This breaks down a bit with quickened spells, but some of the worst cheese has to do with quicken as is anyway.

MORE spells never makes someone more powerful, except as far as versatility is concerned, and even then you still only cast one spell per round. So he has 30000 spells per day, what's he gonna do with all that?

Innis Cabal
2007-05-07, 01:14 PM
the archivest only gets divine spells

Caelestion
2007-05-08, 11:38 AM
:smallconfused: I thought that was supposed to be sarcasm. This isn't even as powerful as a full Wizard or a full Cleric, let alone an Artificer. If you gave free Spontaneous Metamagic, and some kind of "Quicken Spell" ability that lets it Metamagic a spell for free, then you're getting into overpowered territory. But as it's written, this is not overpowered.
Ignoring the Cleric because of its various advantages over the Wizard progression, how do you figure that the Wizard is more powerful than this class? This MTh has full dual classing and all the Wizard has is the choice of familiar and five bonus feats.

For the record, this MTh should still have Decipher Script as a class skill. However, why 6 skill points per level, other than "because it's beardy"? 4 per level is more than sufficient.

Innis Cabal
2007-05-08, 12:15 PM
becuase i felt like it

Caelestion
2007-05-08, 12:41 PM
As I recall saying, why not just give them the SQ "Win D&D" then?

Innis Cabal
2007-05-08, 03:56 PM
becuase that would just be silly don't you think? They arent uver powerful, they only have d4 hitdie, with a low con score you are not going to live long and they can only cast a single spell a round and two at most. Ya they are powerful, to powerful to play without talking to your DM and other players, but they are by no means gamebreaking. Also i didnt make a class to win the game, i made a class to prove a point. The question was asked "How do we make the Mystic Theurge more useful" and people said make it more powerful....but its powerful enough, the class is the result of people just not getting that idea

Caelestion
2007-05-08, 04:15 PM
Well, it's no more silly than making an odd decision like 6 skill points per level for a primary spellcaster with the only justification being "because I felt like it". If you want people to take you seriously, you need to be able to rationally justify your class design decisions.

Innis Cabal
2007-05-08, 04:22 PM
this is one out of many class's i have on the board, and one out of a triffle of other things i have posted....why not go look at some of those and tell me if they are serious.