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Fat Daddy
2007-05-03, 12:55 PM
Hey all. Everyone here really helped me out selecting my spells for my sorcerer. What I need now is help deciding which second level spell to take for my 'spells known'. I'll be leveling up in 2 or 3 weeks and would like to decide on my second level spell before then.

Here is the relevant info so far:

I am the only caster in the party

*Metamagic Specialist (PHB 2 Variant) no familiar but metamagic doesn't increase casting time.
*Silent Spell
*Still Spell

I don't really care for direct damage spells I much prefer utility type. Really though any useful non-direct damage is good.

Pretty much all WotC books are open.

Current Spells Known:
0-level
Detect Magic
Read Magic
Prestidigitation
Ghost Sounds
Mage Hand

1st-Level
Mage Armor
Ray of Clumsiness
Ray of Enfeeblement

Your expert (and not so expert) advice is appreciated as I don't normally play primary arcane casters. Please refrain from telling me to alter my current spell selections though as they are already chosen and the DM won't allow me to change them except where stated in the class description.

Thanks

InaVegt
2007-05-03, 01:08 PM
Invisibility will make the rogue (or other class depending on flat footed enemies for bonus damage) love you.
Mirror image is great for self protection.
Any of the animal's ability spells are great buffs, though I wouldn't pick them as my only spell, it's great to pick one of them up next level though.
Alter self is polymorph's little brother, and as such very powerful.
Knock is a great spell for when you've got trouble opening a door.
Rope trick is the perfect spell if your party has a tendency to have to spend the night in the middle of a dungeon, as long as your party doesn't have more than 7 members (7 is still fine), just be sure to pull the rope up.

Fax Celestis
2007-05-03, 01:13 PM
Cloud of Knives Cloud of Knives Cloud of Knives. It's a terrific fire-and-forget spell, since you spit out a knife as a free action at a target within 30' at the beginning of your turn. It's only 1d6+1/4CL damage, but still.

Draz74
2007-05-03, 01:14 PM
Glitterdust is my top recommendation. Cast it on multiple enemies to blind them unless they make a Will save. Plus, use it to reveal any invisible enemies you run into, for the utility factor.

Other useful save-or-suck spells start to open up at 2nd level, too, that are good but don't have the utility of Glitterdust.

Shatter will be very useful for a couple levels, before your enemies start to come at you with magic weapons or armor; then it will suck until you get to high enough levels to Dispel your opponents' items, then Shatter them while they're suppressed. Shatter also has decent out-of-combat utility. Unfortunately, it also prevents your party from getting loot when they win.

You'll want to pick up Resist Energy eventually, but probably not this early. It's only a really good spell when you have the Caster Levels to power it up, anyway.

Web is decent. Touch of Idiocy is not especially powerful, but it can be fun; plus it's at least an anti-caster spell, which your current two Rays are not.

Ghoul Touch is good if you mostly face humanoids.

Yechezkiel
2007-05-03, 01:26 PM
False Life - as a Sor you can (practically) cast this like a healing spell on yourself later on.

Ikkitosen
2007-05-03, 02:03 PM
Shatter, for all round effectiveness. Shatter weapons, locks, potions, whatever. Remember you're likely to be casting whatever spell you choose a lot until you hit L5, so you need something that's useful in lots of situations.

As alternates I would consider Levitate (protect yourself, take melee opponent out of the battle, reach high places), Web (ensnare people, block passages, catch falling things - if you're quick!) or Invisibility (sneak, hide, get Sneak Attack).

Fat Daddy
2007-05-03, 06:43 PM
Great recommendations!! Thanks folks.

I was thinking about Rope Trick before I posted but I don't think that's the best choice for my only 2nd level spell.

I am leaning towards Glitterdust and then Rope Trick followed possibly by Mirror Image I will have to pick up Invisibility somewhere in there as well.

To address some of the other suggestions:
I forgot to mention that we are currently playing a monster campaign and as such, I chose Fey'ri from Races of Faerun. For a +2LA I get Int and Dex bonuses, Fly [Wings], Alter Self at will, Detect Thoughts, Suggestion, and Charm Person 1xday and Fire Resistance 10. There's a few other things but that's the basics.

Gezina - some really good suggestions in there. I know I need to pick up Invisibility and Rope Trick. The Animal Abilities are nice, but I don't think I like them due to the limited spell selection of the sorceror.

Fax Celestis - cool spell but I'm really trying to stay away from direct damage spells.

Draz - you convinced me that glitterdust is the way to go. I know from experience (I played a Warlock) that if I choose Shatter, the DM makes it really hard on us. :smallwink:
I agree that web is decent but not great. Touch of Idiocy, I looked at that but I try to stay out of touch range if at all possible. Is there a ray that does something similar? I'll have to check the spell compendium again.

Yechezkiel- The DM keeps us pretty stocked up on potions so I don't really need a 'heal thyself' kind of spell.

Ikkitosen - Web is decent, Levitate is ok against people but I can already fly so it loses a lot of its appeal. Invisibility is definitely one I will get.

Thanks again everyone. I appreciate the help!

Jacob Orlove
2007-05-03, 06:56 PM
Invisibility won't work too well with your Ray spells, but grab Greater Invisibility when you get a chance. Regular invisibility is only amazing if you're focusing on buffing allies, summoning monsters, or the like. For you, it'd have to be more of a utility spell, and the duration is often too short for out of combat applications. Mirror Image is a better defensive spell.

Glitterdust is an excellent choice. It's an area spell to compliment your Rays, it hits Will saves (a common weakness, especially at low levels), and it also offers some utility (outlining invisible foes).

Web is awesome if you spend all your time in a dungeon, but can be tough to cast otherwise. False Life is a great third or fourth pick, since it lasts hours/level. You can just cast it at the beginning of every day, and re-cast it after every fight. You don't want it too early, though, because you won't have the 2nd level slots to burn.

Rope Trick goes up in usefulness dramatically at level 8, when it lets you rest for a full 8 hours' sleep, but can certainly be worthwhile even before then.

Dhavaer
2007-05-03, 07:00 PM
Adding another vote to glitterdust.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-05-03, 07:02 PM
I'm curious what abilities you chose for your PC.

A "Sculpted Grease" could be learned from a second level arcane scroll and could be a nice rather useful second level spell choice which your DM should allow as most encounters are on the ground at lower levels.

Considering their limited known spells and spell selection I hate to see sorcerers burning feats on meta feats other than Quicken at level 12+ which a sorcerer can normally live without except in really high powered non leveling up campaigns. Just learning one or two known quicken spells from a scroll (like a permanently known level 5 Quickened Magic Missile) will generally suffice.

Although you are trying to stay away from direct damage spells Magic Missile might be a nice choice for swapping out with one of your ray spells as they always hit and you will pick up a 3rd missile at level 5 but it depends on the campaign and your tastes.

Unless you are pursuing a specific PRC I'm curious why you have taken the Silent Spell and Still Spell feats instead of a Reserve Feat like Fiery Burst leveling up?

Taken with something like Precocious Apprentice at first level would have allowed a bonus level 2 "Fire" spell to fuel the reserve feat from levels 1 to 5 and allow taking something like Improved Initiative which would normally grant your PC first strike plus allow incerasing known spells with a known spell boosting feat like one of Heritage Feats or Domains or Spellfire Wielder as it sounds like you are in FRCS.

deadseashoals
2007-05-03, 07:20 PM
Glitterdust. It is THE level 2 spell. No SR, Will save or suck so hard you might as well give up, and it reveals invisible and hidden enemies.

Other nice candidiates are web, rope trick, and alter self, but none of those would be as good for a first spell known.

If your DM allows it, ray of stupidity would also be pretty ridiculous.

Fat Daddy
2007-05-03, 07:42 PM
I'm curious what abilities you chose for your PC.

A "Sculpted Grease" could be learned from a second level arcane scroll and could be a nice rather useful second level spell choice which your DM should allow as most encounters are on the ground at lower levels.

Considering their limited known spells and spell selection I hate to see sorcerers burning feats on meta feats other than Quicken at level 12+ which a sorcerer can normally live without except in really high powered non leveling up campaigns. Just learning one or two known quicken spells from a scroll (like a permanently known level 5 Quickened Magic Missile) will generally suffice.
I'm not sure I follow your reasoning here. I can't learn a 'sculpted grease'. I can learn 'grease' and sculpt it if I have the sculpt spell meta feat. Same with the 'quicken' spells you mentioned. At least that is how I understand it...and more importantly, that is how my DM understands it.:smallsmile:



Unless you are pursuing a specific PRC I'm curious why you have taken the Silent Spell and Still Spell feats instead of a Reserve Feat like Fiery Burst leveling up?

Taken with something like Precocious Apprentice at first level would have allowed a bonus level 2 "Fire" spell to fuel the reserve feat from levels 1 to 5 and allow taking something like Improved Initiative which would normally grant your PC first strike plus allow incerasing known spells with a known spell boosting feat like one of Heritage Feats or Domains or Spellfire Wielder as it sounds like you are in FRCS.

Our campaigns tend to be very 'intrigue' oriented. That is why I chose Silent and Still meta feats. A lot of times, it's good to be able to cast without anyone knowing I am casting. For those same reasons, the Fey'ri abilities I chose were Detect Thoughts, Suggestion, and Charm Person. I also chose Fire Resistance 10 (I also chose these abilities because I didn't want a +3 LA that some of the others would have given me).

Which book is Precocious Apprentice in? What does it do? Additionally, I haven't finished reading through Complete Mage and am not sure if the Reserve Feats really work with my character concept. The skimming I did seemed to tell me that they were geared more towards direct damage type casters, which I am trying to stay away from.

If anyone is interested, I could post up a link to my character stats and you all could give me a critique and suggestions.

Dhavaer
2007-05-03, 07:45 PM
Which book is Precocious Apprentice in? What does it do?

Complete Arcane, I think, and it gives you a 2nd level spell 1/day. It becomes a normal spell slot when you become capable of casting 2nd level spells normally.

Jacob Orlove
2007-05-03, 07:47 PM
Considering their limited known spells and spell selection I hate to see sorcerers burning feats on meta feats other than Quicken at level 12+ which a sorcerer can normally live without except in really high powered non leveling up campaigns.
I don't understand that at all. A good metamagic feat (like Sculpt) can give you a good three to five "extra" spells known. I'd rather have Grease in a level 1 slot, Glitterdust in a L2, and Sculpt Spell, than try to kludge it by learning Sculpted Grease in a L2 slot. He doesn't even have to spend extra casting time for metamagic spells.

Feats that add to spells known tend to be first level only, or terrible. Neither of those is a good option for him at the moment. :smallwink:

Sculpt Spell would be an excellent choice for one of your next feats, though. It works very well with Glitterdust, and you could easily pick up a few more spells to use with it before you grab the feat (Grease is good, but there are plenty of other options).

Fat Daddy
2007-05-03, 08:22 PM
Complete Arcane, I think, and it gives you a 2nd level spell 1/day. It becomes a normal spell slot when you become capable of casting 2nd level spells normally.

Thanks for the info. That seems like a wasted feat once you become high enough to cast 2nd level spells. I could understand if it maybe added a spell known as well but as you describe it...meh. :smallwink:


I don't understand that at all. A good metamagic feat (like Sculpt) can give you a good three to five "extra" spells known. I'd rather have Grease in a level 1 slot, Glitterdust in a L2, and Sculpt Spell, than try to kludge it by learning Sculpted Grease in a L2 slot. He doesn't even have to spend extra casting time for metamagic spells.

Feats that add to spells known tend to be first level only, or terrible. Neither of those is a good option for him at the moment. :smallwink:

Sculpt Spell would be an excellent choice for one of your next feats, though. It works very well with Glitterdust, and you could easily pick up a few more spells to use with it before you grab the feat (Grease is good, but there are plenty of other options).

I am inclined to agree with you. I'd rather be able to add the meta feat to any spell I'd like (especially since it doesn't affect my casting time). What is the spell level adjustment for Sculpt? (I don't have my books with me at the moment).

ImperiousLeader
2007-05-03, 08:59 PM
+1 for Sculpt. Next to Heighten, it's one of my favourite metamagics. Sculpt is incredibly versatile, and it can really augment spells with a small area of effect like Shadowspray (Spell Compendium). I try to grab Sculpt early and take the Caltrops cantrip and Grease and Glitterdust to build a very effective low-level battlefield controller. You can fire off your fireballs into melee without much concern, target multiple opponents, Sculpt rocks.

Fat Daddy
2007-05-03, 09:07 PM
Sounds like Sculpt is the next Meta Feat I pick up. Along with the Grease Spell and some other area spells.

Thanks for the tip!

Ikkitosen
2007-05-04, 05:44 AM
Glitterdust is, powerwise, possibly the best 2nd level sorc spell you could pick. However, you become a one-trick pony for a whole level, and your DM might soon get pissed off with every fight starting "I cast Glitterdust - make Will saves". Then again, since you'll be ECL 6 and yet only be casting L2 spells you probably need the extra power Glitterdust will bring you over the versatility of other choices.

Fat Daddy
2007-05-04, 09:06 AM
The group decided that they wanted to play monsters and what not so they are using Savage Species. I personally don't like using that particular book so I tried to find a good +2LA monster caster race.
Basically we have a bunch of tanks and a few skill monkeys (rogue/monk/ninja types). That is why I went with full caster and our plethora of tanks is why I opted away from direct damage.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-05-04, 12:21 PM
I'm not sure I follow your reasoning here. I can't learn a 'sculpted grease'. I can learn 'grease' and sculpt it if I have the sculpt spell meta feat. Same with the 'quicken' spells you mentioned. At least that is how I understand it...and more importantly, that is how my DM understands it.:smallsmile:



Our campaigns tend to be very 'intrigue' oriented. That is why I chose Silent and Still meta feats. A lot of times, it's good to be able to cast without anyone knowing I am casting. For those same reasons, the Fey'ri abilities I chose were Detect Thoughts, Suggestion, and Charm Person. I also chose Fire Resistance 10 (I also chose these abilities because I didn't want a +3 LA that some of the others would have given me).

Which book is Precocious Apprentice in? What does it do? Additionally, I haven't finished reading through Complete Mage and am not sure if the Reserve Feats really work with my character concept. The skimming I did seemed to tell me that they were geared more towards direct damage type casters, which I am trying to stay away from.

If anyone is interested, I could post up a link to my character stats and you all could give me a critique and suggestions.

In a FRCS game the Blood of Power Feat would be nice for your PC as it would increase daily spell like ability castings of charm person, detect thoughts and suggestion to 3/day each.

Your current PC knows two +1 spell meta feats but cannot cast level 2 spells yet. Not very useful for cantrips IMO. Your PC has survived but he could have been a little more effective with other feats inititally with the spell like abilities your PC has and delaying taking until levels 3 and 6 normally.

I would have taken two additional feat flaws for Precocius Apprentice with a level 2 Fire spell to power a reserve feat like Fiery Burst so I could take a powerful and very useful first level FRCS feat like "Godsight" from Lost Empires of Faerun or the "Spellfire Wielder" feat from Magic of Faerun.

There are other reserve feat choices but one attack mode style would give your PC a basically constant always ready close range attack power that would normally be better than a crossbow and allow your PC to learn all sorts of non damage knonw spells for your intrigue based campaign.

Yes you can learn a Sculped Grease as a level 2 spell or a Quickened Magic Missile as a level 5 spell without the feat because you are learning a variant of the spell.

Here is my reasoning:

In most campaigns PCs can purchase spell scrolls and learn new spells from scrolls or original spell research.

Wizards can scribe scrolls with a standard spell enhanced by a meta feat changing the standard spell which normally increases the spell level scribing that scroll.

A PC sorcerer or wizard or other spellcaster could learn the variant level 2 "Sculpted Grease" spell from original spell research (expensive) or from that scroll as a second level arcane spell. A sorcerer could learn a level 5 quickened magic missile without needing the feat.

IMO a PC sorcerer who has very limited feats and limited known spells should only take a few meta feats and use the other feats to improve or flavor the sorcerer PC.

The perfect thing is to convince your DM to let you spend a feat on the Raumathari Battlemage Sword Focus with limited daily Battle Spell Feat enhancers from Unapproachable East.

Things like Improved Initiative at level 3 or level 1 if you can't get one of the other really good feats (Going first really helps leveling up), Leadership with DM approval depending on your game and concept, and Domain or Heritage feats that increase known spells.

Precocious Apprentice is on page 181 of Complete Arcane. Basically it gives a spellcasting sorcerer or wizard level 1 starting PC a bonus known castable second level spell which the PC needs to make a DC8 caster level check to cast properly until gaining the ability to cast level 2 spells normally which remains as a bonus known and bonus daily level 2 casting. +2 on spellcraft checks.

We home rule that the caster gets a bonus cantrip, first level spell and second level spell.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-05-04, 12:22 PM
Board lock up duplicate post.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-05-04, 12:23 PM
Boards locked up duplicate post.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-05-04, 12:23 PM
Deleted post. Boards locked up 3 extra posts

Jacob Orlove
2007-05-04, 03:54 PM
Glitterdust is, powerwise, possibly the best 2nd level sorc spell you could pick. However, you become a one-trick pony for a whole level, and your DM might soon get pissed off with every fight starting "I cast Glitterdust - make Will saves". Then again, since you'll be ECL 6 and yet only be casting L2 spells you probably need the extra power Glitterdust will bring you over the versatility of other choices.
Yeah, that's a classic sorcerer problem, but in this case, it'll actually make for a nice change of pace from "I cast a ray spell to debuff the main guy". Now he'll at least be doing different things against groups of enemies vs one big enemy, which is gives the DM more options.

And the problem won't entirely disappear at level 5 either, since he's unlikely to take another offensive debuff at that point. Mirror Image would see some in-combat use, but Rope Trick won't really add to his start of fight options. Once he grabs Sculpt and a 3rd level spell at L6, though, his options should open up dramatically. Since he's in a heavily melee party, I would strongly suggest Haste for the first 3rd level spell, which should leave him with a pretty well rounded set of options (especially if he grabs Sculpt too).

CASTLEMIKE
2007-05-04, 04:16 PM
I don't understand that at all. A good metamagic feat (like Sculpt) can give you a good three to five "extra" spells known. I'd rather have Grease in a level 1 slot, Glitterdust in a L2, and Sculpt Spell, than try to kludge it by learning Sculpted Grease in a L2 slot. He doesn't even have to spend extra casting time for metamagic spells.

Feats that add to spells known tend to be first level only, or terrible. Neither of those is a good option for him at the moment. :smallwink:

Sculpt Spell would be an excellent choice for one of your next feats, though. It works very well with Glitterdust, and you could easily pick up a few more spells to use with it before you grab the feat (Grease is good, but there are plenty of other options).

Sculpt is one of the nicer spell meta feats but it really depends on a lot of factors. The campaign and your playing style. Is the PC leveling up from first level for a long term campaign or is the PC a higher level or short term campaign? The feats like Improved Initiative or Precocious Apprentice with a Rerserve Feat are not always what you choose designing a higher level PC.

How many and which spells you normally use the meta feat on in game regularly would determine if you should keep it or lose it.

Still Spell and Silent Spell were poor feat choices for the PC so far IMO unless required for a PRC (And I inquired if this was the case). These feat choices could have been easily delayed till levels 3 and 6 or later for the help they have provided the PC so far in game at sorcerer level 3 enhancing a few cantrips.

For example the Blood of Power Feat would have been a lot more useful and in concept for this Feyri PC in this intrigue campaign increasing his spell-like abilities: Detect Thoughts, Suggestion and Charm usage for Each to 3/Day from once a day each. Plus as spell-like abilities they can be used unnoticed in an intrigue campaign and two of the abilities mimic spells your PC is unable to cast yet.

Godsight would have been nice for the extra spell-like abilities which would have granted more options and more known spells choices.

Unfortunate he only has a +2 ECL race because with a +3 ECL he could take some of the heritage feats at levels 3 and 6 which are all enhanced by the Blood of Power Feat: Maybe Fey or Fiendish Presence since he is a Feyri at level 6 and or Fey or Fiendish Legacy at level 9 as still nice useful feats.

Precocious Apprentice fueling a Reserve Feat like Fiery Burst for occassional combat and devoting other known spells to non combat and intrigue or utility would have been another nice choice at least for me as I prefer my sorcerers occassionally doing some magical damage not plinking with a crossbow at low levels like this campaign thread useful but not overpowering to the game or campaign.

The PC could take 2 flaws and gain two bonus feats.

Personally I think it is a waste for a sorcerer to spend more than half their feats on spell meta feats with their limited known spells which is probably the major sorcerer weakness along with the standard sorcerer meta spell rules. Learning a higher level variant meta spell bypasses many of those restrictions without needing to take the meta caster option variant and giving the PC more flexibility and options.

IMO most sorcerers should not have more than 3 meta spell feats at level 20 as you are getting less and less for your meta spell feats comparitively to other feats in game.

If you stop and analyze which meta spell feats you are using in game for which particular known spells certain feats should stand out for any PC.

While a feat can give you a few extra spells as you pointed out. It depends on the feat in question and your campaign and playing style as all feats and all campaigns are not equal.

I think it is generally more prudent in leveling up games to increase the limited known sorcerer spells via Heritage, Domain or Other Feats.

The Nexus feat from Dragon is one of my favories because it basically grants Summon Monster 1 to Summon Monster 9 leveling up especially with the Augment Summoning Feat (Bumps up the HP of the summoned creature almost 50% based on the average 4.5 HP per HD granting it a little more staying power) along with a Reserve feat so you can do a little blasting while your monsters are fighting.

It grants the sorcerer a lot of spell utility if you know the variants you can summon at all levels and for various situations.

I disagree although most spell choices are not maximized for each level with these extra known spell feats there are generally a few gem spells and most provide an extra useful (Not optimized) known spell at each of the nine spell levels which grants the sorcerer more options.

Fat Daddy
2007-05-04, 07:43 PM
CASTLEMIKE-
That's some really good advice. I do appreciate it. My problem is that I don't play arcane casters except once in a blue moon. I HATE choosing feats. Looking through 20+ books to find a feat that may or may not be there or worthwhile annoys the hell out of me.

I am going to keep a link to this thread for the next time I build an arcane caster though. With everyone's advice I think it will be incredibly useful for me.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-05-04, 07:45 PM
Thanks for the info. That seems like a wasted feat once you become high enough to cast 2nd level spells. I could understand if it maybe added a spell known as well but as you describe it...meh. :smallwink:



I am inclined to agree with you. I'd rather be able to add the meta feat to any spell I'd like (especially since it doesn't affect my casting time). What is the spell level adjustment for Sculpt? (I don't have my books with me at the moment).

+1 for Sculpt. Some things to consider:

Is this a long term campaign?
How far do you expect to level up?
How many of your known spells will your sorcerer plan on sculpting as you level up?

IMO the thing with meta spell feats is known spells and meta usefulness.

Your PC as a sorcerer does not have very many known spells to use meta on. Particularly at low levels like this where you have very few known spells to use it on. Meta is generally better for wizard types because of their generally greater known spell selection lends itself better to meta optimization and utility.

A level 12 sorcerer could choose to take Quicken as his feat. The sorcerer has 10 first and second level knonw spells he can quicken but is limited to 8 base daily castings (modified by ability score) if he chooses to forego casting level 5 and 6 spells for the day.

While it is occassionally useful to cast a lower level spell quicker like with Quicken many times it is better to use a higher level spell and learn a single or a few meta variants like a Quickened Variant Magic Missile as a level 5 known spell. Might be a better choice and spending the level 12 feat on something else like an extra domain or useful feat.

When you stop and analyze exactly which spells you are using meta on you may find it more convenient to learn a few select modified meta variant spells instead of the meta feats.

The Ultimate Magus PRC is nice if you want to use a lot of meta because it will pay for it and grant you a lot of bennies.

A nice trick if you are not going the Nexus feat method is to learn a few select Augmented +0 Variant Summon Monster spells from a scroll if/when you choose to learn a Summon Monster as a known spell.

Jacob Orlove
2007-05-04, 07:57 PM
The real advantage of learning the metamagic feat is that it preserves your high level slots for the (much more powerful) high level spells. Especially with Quicken, I can't imagine burning a 5th level slot that could be Wall of Force or Teleport or Cloudkill or Persistent Image or Telekinesis for a quickened 1st level spell, when I have too many 1st level slots to begin with, and I often want to quicken different spells for different situations.

Basically, higher level spells let you do totally crazy things that lower level spells can never do, even with metamagic feats. That's why you take the crazy high level spells, and boost your low level spells with metamagic to allow for staple effects (if you really want damage, say, you can Empower some Scorching Rays or something).

Aquillion
2007-05-04, 08:17 PM
Caltrops is probably the best cantrip in the game. Which isn't saying much, but it can be helpful when you're facing lots of mooks and don't want to waste a real spell... and, really, besides the ones listed and maybe flare, what else are you going to put in cantrip slots?

CASTLEMIKE
2007-05-04, 08:24 PM
The real advantage of learning the metamagic feat is that it preserves your high level slots for the (much more powerful) high level spells. Especially with Quicken, I can't imagine burning a 5th level slot that could be Wall of Force or Teleport or Cloudkill or Persistent Image or Telekinesis for a quickened 1st level spell, when I have too many 1st level slots to begin with, and I often want to quicken different spells for different situations.

Basically, higher level spells let you do totally crazy things that lower level spells can never do, even with metamagic feats. That's why you take the crazy high level spells, and boost your low level spells with metamagic to allow for staple effects (if you really want damage, say, you can Empower some Scorching Rays or something).

Your PC cannot learn all the meta feats normally and they are not all equal plus the sorcerer is limited by his very limited known spells.

Normally you don't burn up a higher level spell slot with a lower level spell even with meta unless you don't have a usable more effective high level spell.

The sorcerer PC leveling up can generally get more use out of other feats than most meta spell feats because the sorcerer has so few known spells to apply meta to which would be more effective than a comparable higher level spell.

At level 10 or 11 or even 12 a quickened magic missile could be a viable spell choice for a sure strike attack instead of taking the Quicken Feat at level 12 depending on the campaign particularly if you were choosing strong feats that enhanced the sorcerer leveling up and foregoing taking Quicken until level 15 and trading out the spell at level 16.

Sure high level casters can do all sorts of wild things in game. We're talking about a level 3 sorcerer here advancing to level 4 in this thread. The sorcerer has 2 +1 meta feats he can barely use now in game. I'm not sure how much more effective most of his first level spells will be in his campaign with meta applied but I know the Blood of Power Feat would have been a lot more useful because he chose his spell like abilities and he would gain a threefold daily increase in usage with the feat to All spell like abilities usable once a day (Two spells he can not even cast yet as an option). Hands down I believe that beats out a slightly useful +1 meta feat at these levels.

I'm saying Quicken might not be the best feat for the sorcerer when he hits level 12 because how many of those first and second level spells are worth quickening at that point in the PC career when you stop and think about the spells you are normally quickening at the expense of your highest level spells.

Maybe starting off in a high level campaign level 15+ or adventure but in a low level long term leveling up campaign I would generally disagree. A lot of the things that allow you to go crazy at high levels are not always the best feats to choose to allow the PC to survive and obtain those high levels.

As much as I like sorcerers. Going Beguiler -1 in this type of intrigue or a skill based campaign (with a UA wizard variant for some spell flexibility in others) and UA Spellcaster (Int normally for primary ability unless having a lot of spell like abilities) and going Ultimate Magus is a better way (not the best mechanically) to go for fueling meta magic leveling up from first level.

Jacob Orlove
2007-05-05, 01:44 AM
Oh, I should clarify, when I said "higher level slots" I meant higher level spells known, not higher level spells per day. Giving up the chance to know a truly impressive spell for a quickened first level spell seems foolish.

I agree that Still and Silent are not very useful for him right now, but he will be able to start using them in a level, and they do qualify him for Sculpt. It's also quite possible that he'll want to spend his higher level feats on stuff that can't be taken earlier (say, Rapid Metamagic at level 9), which would mean that he's best off taking "essential" (for his build, anyway) feats with no prerequisites as early as possible. In general, though, that's a bad strategy (see below).

In general, though, I agree with you: still and silent are weak at low levels, and very situational at high levels. But, especially with Metamagic Specialist, they can be *quite* good (letting you cast stilled spells in a grapple, or a silenced dim-door while pinned). In general, if a campaign is "social" enough to justify them, I won't argue with the choice, but I am a little surprised to hear that description applied to a "monsters" game.

When I argue so strongly for metamagic feats, I'm mostly arguing for the really good ones, like Sculpt or Split Ray or Quicken. And, yes, spending some of your feats on other stuff is generally going to work out fine. It's just that you're most limited on spell slots early on, which is why I like to grab really useful +1 metamagics like Sculpt as soon as possible, to get that versatility boost when it really counts.

One thing that I'm not a huge fan of, though, is feats that are only good at very low levels (Precocious Apprentice, reserve feats, etc). Improved Initiative is fine, and arguably better at high levels than at low ones, but stuff with a very limited "shelf life" seems like a waste--as with taking still and silent early, you're trading effectiveness at one part of your character's lifetime for effectiveness at a different part, and that generally leads to dissatisfaction at the table. You're either too strong for your level, or too weak, and that's no fun for you or anyone else.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-05-05, 09:57 AM
Oh, I should clarify, when I said "higher level slots" I meant higher level spells known, not higher level spells per day. Giving up the chance to know a truly impressive spell for a quickened first level spell seems foolish.

I agree that Still and Silent are not very useful for him right now, but he will be able to start using them in a level, and they do qualify him for Sculpt. It's also quite possible that he'll want to spend his higher level feats on stuff that can't be taken earlier (say, Rapid Metamagic at level 9), which would mean that he's best off taking "essential" (for his build, anyway) feats with no prerequisites as early as possible. In general, though, that's a bad strategy (see below).

In general, though, I agree with you: still and silent are weak at low levels, and very situational at high levels. But, especially with Metamagic Specialist, they can be *quite* good (letting you cast stilled spells in a grapple, or a silenced dim-door while pinned). In general, if a campaign is "social" enough to justify them, I won't argue with the choice, but I am a little surprised to hear that description applied to a "monsters" game.

When I argue so strongly for metamagic feats, I'm mostly arguing for the really good ones, like Sculpt or Split Ray or Quicken. And, yes, spending some of your feats on other stuff is generally going to work out fine. It's just that you're most limited on spell slots early on, which is why I like to grab really useful +1 metamagics like Sculpt as soon as possible, to get that versatility boost when it really counts.

One thing that I'm not a huge fan of, though, is feats that are only good at very low levels (Precocious Apprentice, reserve feats, etc). Improved Initiative is fine, and arguably better at high levels than at low ones, but stuff with a very limited "shelf life" seems like a waste--as with taking still and silent early, you're trading effectiveness at one part of your character's lifetime for effectiveness at a different part, and that generally leads to dissatisfaction at the table. You're either too strong for your level, or too weak, and that's no fun for you or anyone else.

I agree you make a lot of valid points. Deomgarphically according to the DMG the majority of the campaign population is under level 5.

Many campaigns are low to mid level, leveling up campaigns which peak around levels 5 - 8 and rarely go over levels 9 - 12. In those type of campaigns, particularly non magic dominating campaigns taking feats like Precocious Apprentice with a Reserve Feat like Fiery Burst is pretty effective for the sorcerer and the party through level 5. The sorcererstill contributes through levels 6 - 10 and it grants him a little more spell flexibility choosing his spells particularly with the Spell Pool.

Most games revolve around combat for advancement in some form and the DM not trying to destroy the party and everyone having some fun. Most DMs don't like or enjoy their monster characters getting dropped time after time in a single round. In return for cutting the DM some slack he cuts the party a lot of slack by not going Quid Quo Pro with single round death attacks on the party.

Taking a Quickened level 5 variant Magic Missile can be a viable choice for a sorcerer in those kinds of campaigns particularly with something like the MotAO with the Spell Pool feature for a sorcerer which grants a lot more spell flexibility.

Teleport is probably one of the best spell choices for a sorcerer if your DM lets you become a Wayfarer and earn some serious gold when not adventuring during downtime which allows you to quickly excede suggested wealth guidelines and purchase lots of magical goodies.

Otherwise most PCs rarely need to use Teleport daily or even weekly much less more than once a day. The Spell Pool can do the trick, the party wizard or a NPC can do it or even a prorated magic item like Boots of Teleportaion usable once every 10 days for 1,400 GP.

At higher levels a conjuration spell Teleport can be duplicated with the level 7 Shadow Conjuration Greater as early as level 13 with a feat now. That is a much better spell choice than Greater Teleport but I rarely see anyone post using it that way.

The same goes for Wall of Force it is generally a top line spell choices but how often do you cast them every day. Generally you can get by with the Spell Pool access or a Greater Shadow Conjuration Wall of Stone leveling up.

Taking the Quicken feat would basically be burning a feat for almost any level 12 sorcerer character except an Ultimate Magus if it was going to be retired before level 15 in those types of campaigns.

Just a few thoughts. Travelling this weekend so may not get back to the thread for a few days.