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DracoKnight
2015-07-27, 01:07 AM
So, this is my first run at creating a Summoner (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B66RprYE6_HHMkh0bFowMm5mZUk/view?usp=sharing) :D

It might be a little bit weird, but I'm still working on it, and I would appreciate feedback in the form of constructive criticism. :)

GandalfTheWhite
2015-07-27, 02:54 AM
So, this is my first run at creating a Summoner (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B66RprYE6_HHQUtxVWVZSmZjRGc/view?usp=sharing) :D

It might be a little bit weird, but I'm still working on it, and I would appreciate feedback in the form of constructive criticism. :)

I like the overall feel of this class, but aren't the only 1/3 casters the Eldritch Knight and the Arcane Trickster?

DracoKnight
2015-07-27, 02:55 AM
I like the overall feel of this class, but aren't the only 1/3 casters the Eldritch Knight and the Arcane Trickster?

That is correct, but I wanted to balance out the fact that you are summoning things to fight for you.

GandalfTheWhite
2015-07-27, 02:57 AM
That is correct, but I wanted to balance out the fact that you are summoning things to fight for you.

M. Yes. I do have to say, I like the 20th level feature.

Also, I would say that this would need the power taken down a bit, except that you've tied up their action pretty decently in Summoning.

GandalfTheWhite
2015-07-27, 10:25 AM
What does everyone else think of DracoKnight's Summoner?

Amnoriath
2015-07-27, 12:05 PM
One of the things that really stand out to me is that at level 1 they can summon something 5 times a day. It also has a couple of odd features. Namely a charm ability and an tandem attack ability. It seems like you are giving this an a Battle Dancer vibe and I think it detracts from the idea. Finally the CR progression is really exponential if not a bit much for 11 times a day or infinite at level 20.

Belac93
2015-07-27, 01:26 PM
How long does a summoned creature last?

DracoKnight
2015-07-27, 02:13 PM
How long does a summoned creature last?

Until it dies or you dismiss it. That's just what I have right now, though.

DracoKnight
2015-07-27, 05:38 PM
One of the things that really stand out to me is that at level 1 they can summon something 5 times a day. It also has a couple of odd features. Namely a charm ability and an tandem attack ability. It seems like you are giving this an a Battle Dancer vibe and I think it detracts from the idea. Finally the CR progression is really exponential if not a bit much for 11 times a day or infinite at level 20.

I don't want to bring down the CR cap, so how would you restrict the amount of summons? Maybe Proficiency Bonus + 1/2 Charisma? Or maybe straight Charisma Modifier?

DracoKnight
2015-07-28, 01:00 AM
Are there any other thoughts?

GandalfTheWhite
2015-07-28, 03:03 AM
I don't want to bring down the CR cap, so how would you restrict the amount of summons? Maybe Proficiency Bonus + 1/2 Charisma? Or maybe straight Charisma Modifier?

Just go with straight Charisma mod. That's what I'd do. That's 5 summons a long rest when you max out CHA.

Also, can you only have 1 summon at a time?

DracoKnight
2015-07-28, 03:04 AM
Just go with straight Charisma mod. That's what I'd do. That's 5 summons a long rest when you max out CHA.

M'kay.


Also, can you only have 1 summon at a time?

That is correct.

DracoKnight
2015-07-28, 02:18 PM
Just go with straight Charisma mod. That's what I'd do. That's 5 summons a long rest when you max out CHA.

Also, can you only have 1 summon at a time?

Are there any further thoughts before I release this to my players?

DracoKnight
2015-07-31, 11:00 AM
Are there any further thoughts before I release this to my players?

Seriously, are there any further thoughts before I release this to my players?
I have taken the suggestions so far and edited them into the document. I haven't updated the link yet, because I want to edit in all of the suggestions at once and then update it.

Gr7mm Bobb
2015-07-31, 11:36 AM
atm? Not anything that hasn't been called into question. If the number of summons per day proves too much, I would scale it with the barbarians rage or the druids wildshape. I am feeling a little under the weather, but I figured I'd pop by. I am trying a similar undertaking in trying to create a super customized buddy like the pathfinder namesake, but have been distracted. This definitely called my attention and it simple enough that a PC wouldn't be overwhelmed with the options.

GJ and gl on the playtest. more feedback due from me, too sick to care atm.

ImSAMazing
2015-07-31, 12:59 PM
Seriously, are there any further thoughts before I release this to my players?
I have taken the suggestions so far and edited them into the document. I haven't updated the link yet, because I want to edit in all of the suggestions at once and then update it.

You got a typo in the Summoning feature. You said: "<snip> until it is either dismissed, or or dies"
Remove the second or :smallbiggrin:

DracoKnight
2015-08-05, 01:53 PM
Is there anyone who would be willing to break this class down and analyze it? I need to know if it's balanced, and I don't want to hand it over to players quite yet. I've made the changes that have already been suggested - is there anything else?

ImSAMazing
2015-09-10, 09:20 AM
Please update the link.

ImSAMazing
2015-09-11, 06:55 AM
Is there anyone who would be willing to break this class down and analyze it? I need to know if it's balanced, and I don't want to hand it over to players quite yet. I've made the changes that have already been suggested - is there anything else?

I am going to playtest this first, and then I am going to play a Summoner in a 5th Edition game. I will update you on the details. is the link in the thread the right one?

Rogem
2015-09-11, 08:45 AM
My view on this:

The CR curve is too high, especially at early levels.
Bewitching is way too good. Nerf please. Either reduce the duration to a much shorter time (5 minutes?) or change entirely.
Beast Senses: needs a rename, the current name doesn't make much sense. Also, these two quotes:

you are treated as if you are under the effects of the sanctuary spell.
This is way too good to be true, since there's no real limits on the possession. You should either take it out or make it an improvement on a higher level. What's the fun if the player doesn't have to keep a check on their unconscious body?

On each of your turns you must use your action to make a Constitution saving throw (DC 10) to maintain your presence within your companion's body.
Unless you put in a cooldown, you might as well take this one out. It's just gonna be a nuisance otherwise. Might be a better idea to just slap a maximum duration and cooldown (I suggest a total of 1 minute/day per level).
Adept Summoner. Absolutely love the summon effect. You could push this up to level 6, though. Just looking a bit empty on level 6.
Dance of War. Solid one, not OP.
Companion Caster. Needs more definition. Does this include the full range of spells available to you? How about creature spells?
A New Form. A wyvern is pretty badass. 4d6+8 per turn, and a poison effect to top it off at potential 11d6+8 per turn. This is on average 52, without accounting for hit chance. Also, 110 hit points. Wyvern is considered a level 13 by the MM (13d10+13*Con Mod). Remember that CR curve? It needs maybe a bit of fine tuning.
Magical Secrets is very nice.
Lord of the Summons. Breaks. Bad. Mainly because of the high CR and Monstrous Adept. I just became a Hydra, with 272 hp, 20 STR+20 CON, saves on DEX+CHA, advantages against all the inflictable status effects... AND FIVE+ ATTACKS. You will still be scaling AFTER all your friends stop at 20. Even more - your friends can help you with it. They just throw everything they have at you and top you up every once in a while, so that you'll grow to a massive scale (100d10+500, anyone?). Do I even need to explain more? Sure, you can do this with True Polymorph too, but you shouldn't encourage this. But yeah, other than the Hydra-breaking thing, I don't see too many problems with this.
Monstrosity Adept: Other than certain gamebreaker and too high CR limits... Frightful Presence. Do you take the save every turn? If you do, this is broken.
Elemental Adept: I hope that the aura is not every turn... On the other side, the teleport probably should both have a cooldown and be a bonus action, to allow the heal to be cast normally. Also, limit to an ally within 5/10 feet?

DracoKnight
2015-09-12, 05:51 AM
My view on this:

The CR curve is too high, especially at early levels.
Bewitching is way too good. Nerf please. Either reduce the duration to a much shorter time (5 minutes?) or change entirely.
Beast Senses: needs a rename, the current name doesn't make much sense. Also, these two quotes:

This is way too good to be true, since there's no real limits on the possession. You should either take it out or make it an improvement on a higher level. What's the fun if the player doesn't have to keep a check on their unconscious body?

Unless you put in a cooldown, you might as well take this one out. It's just gonna be a nuisance otherwise. Might be a better idea to just slap a maximum duration and cooldown (I suggest a total of 1 minute/day per level).
Adept Summoner. Absolutely love the summon effect. You could push this up to level 6, though. Just looking a bit empty on level 6.
Dance of War. Solid one, not OP.
Companion Caster. Needs more definition. Does this include the full range of spells available to you? How about creature spells?
A New Form. A wyvern is pretty badass. 4d6+8 per turn, and a poison effect to top it off at potential 11d6+8 per turn. This is on average 52, without accounting for hit chance. Also, 110 hit points. Wyvern is considered a level 13 by the MM (13d10+13*Con Mod). Remember that CR curve? It needs maybe a bit of fine tuning.
Magical Secrets is very nice.
Lord of the Summons. Breaks. Bad. Mainly because of the high CR and Monstrous Adept. I just became a Hydra, with 272 hp, 20 STR+20 CON, saves on DEX+CHA, advantages against all the inflictable status effects... AND FIVE+ ATTACKS. You will still be scaling AFTER all your friends stop at 20. Even more - your friends can help you with it. They just throw everything they have at you and top you up every once in a while, so that you'll grow to a massive scale (100d10+500, anyone?). Do I even need to explain more? Sure, you can do this with True Polymorph too, but you shouldn't encourage this. But yeah, other than the Hydra-breaking thing, I don't see too many problems with this.
Monstrosity Adept: Other than certain gamebreaker and too high CR limits... Frightful Presence. Do you take the save every turn? If you do, this is broken.
Elemental Adept: I hope that the aura is not every turn... On the other side, the teleport probably should both have a cooldown and be a bonus action, to allow the heal to be cast normally. Also, limit to an ally within 5/10 feet?


Thanks for this break down. I'll update within this next week or so, and I will have the new link uploaded :D

ImSAMazing
2015-09-12, 07:14 AM
Thanks for this break down. I'll update within this next week or so, and I will have the new link uploaded :D

My DM & I thought of this CR Curve(It's based on Summoner vs Fighter):

Level 1 CR 1/4
Level 3 CR 1/2
Level 6 CR 1
Level 9 CR 2
Level 11 CR 3
Level 15 CR 4
Level 17 CR 6
Level 20 CR 8

Mikmv
2015-10-19, 04:00 AM
My DM & I thought of this CR Curve(It's based on Summoner vs Fighter):

Level 1 CR 1/4
Level 3 CR 1/2
Level 6 CR 1
Level 9 CR 2
Level 11 CR 3
Level 15 CR 4
Level 17 CR 6
Level 20 CR 8

I feel like this is to weak indtil Level 17. Look at your way it increases. Level 6 Able to CR 1 that is your level divided by 6. At level 9 that is your Level dvided by 4( point 5) or would then say rounded down. That is To low. Druid shapechanger is able to shapeshift into Animals " your level dvided by 3" And they are a full caster.
- This summonerne is only a 1/3 Caster, and summoning is pretty much the only thing they can do. So their Summoning should Atleast be that of a druid if not better. ( Hell a sitenote with elemental shapeshift they are able to use Both chages to take on a CR 5 Creature, instedt of the normal CR 3 beast.)
So Either it should atleast be Summonerne Level Divided by 3 Rounden up, or Maby even Summonerne divided by 2)
--Or do a way, such as the Druid elemental shapeshift, that you can use 2 of your daliy charges to summon a even stronger CR rateing. Could use the Above CR Curve, and then add a level 10, the ability to use 2 charges, to Do summonerne level dvided by 2.

I also think the Trait from " Beginning at 3rd level, you and your companion have advantage on attack rolls and saving throws against Monstrosities. " I would Remove the advantage on attack role and instedt change to, you have advantage on knowlege check to Monsters, and then leave the your companion have advantage on monstrosities(or elementals if that is what you are). Heck could even be a Langues of one of the type, so you learn either goblin/orc/giant and so on.
- Advantage on attack is to damn strong. so give some Flavor Knowlege on the area for RP, and then the defensive.

DracoKnight
2015-10-19, 04:10 AM
My DM & I thought of this CR Curve(It's based on Summoner vs Fighter):

Level 1 CR 1/4
Level 3 CR 1/2
Level 6 CR 1
Level 9 CR 2
Level 11 CR 3
Level 15 CR 4
Level 17 CR 6
Level 20 CR 8

Can you elaborate why you picked the Fighter to run numbers against? My local DMs and I are not seeing a connection. :P

ImSAMazing
2015-10-20, 03:25 AM
I didnt run the numbers my DM did.

DracoKnight
2015-10-20, 01:52 PM
I didnt run the numbers my DM did.

Well, whoever ran the numbers, why was the Fighter the one they ran them against?

Mikmv
2015-10-21, 05:07 AM
Well, whoever ran the numbers, why was the Fighter the one they ran them against?

I can only assume, becauce a warrior is the "closes" class to a typical melee monster, No "special" abilities, mainly Multi attack and deal damage.

But for the life of me, i can not find out why it is those numbers. A level 9 warrior Would in teory have around +8 to hit( +4 from STR and +4 from Proficiency)( Not counting ANY magical items, which at level 9 you should have SOME)
And it says the CR should be CR 2. That would, Just going by the challenge rateing be an Easy fight.. You may be able to summon more yeah, but only 1 at a time. ( just wondering cus i would love some good debate on the mattter, for i hope to alteast try DracoKnights class idea as a back up charcter )

DracoKnight
2015-10-21, 05:45 AM
Updated the link in the OP.

Ramsus
2016-02-20, 01:52 PM
I really love the class, but I do have a couple questions.

First, what action type is Bewitching? It doesn't specify one.

Secondly, while I have no issues with getting the option of Wyvern and I totally understand why True Dragons are off the table... why did you choose to give the class access to basically a single monster as their 11th level feature? Would there be some issue with adding the option of just choosing another creature type they can summon?