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Prince Zahn
2015-07-28, 03:46 PM
5E PACT MAGIC
http://i.imgur.com/qpzCf.jpg


Table of Contents:

Foreword
5e Binder
Class Table
Class Features

Binder Fates (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?430658-PEACH-Fifth-Edition-Binder-Class-II-(Still-WIP)&p=19596234&postcount=2#post19596234)

Sealed
Released
Warped
Occult
Eldritch

Augmented Pacts (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=19596256&postcount=3)
Additional Materials (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?430658-PEACH-Fifth-Edition-Binder-Class-II-%28Still-WIP%29&p=19596260&postcount=4#post19596260)
New Equipment
New Trinkets (Coming soon!)
New Feats
NPC Stat blocks
Homebrew Vestige Template
FAQ


Appendix: Vestige Codex (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?471443-Scarce-s-Vestige-Codex-(5e-Binder)&p=20168938)

FOREWORD
This thread is a continuation of what Anaximander19 started and inspired in this thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?412419-PEACH-Binder-class-(WIP))
The Binder has always been a favorite class of mine, As the class merges a campaign's worth of lore with rich role playing opportunities and a functional mechanical chassis - there is very little you can't ask a class with this much flexibility to do (to a degree)! If you are unfamilliar with the Binder, or with the Tome of Magic (3.5e), I greatly recommend reading on both the Pact Magic section, and the Shadow Magic Section. from my experience it's a hard book to let go of. :smalltongue:
The Binder is, however, one of 3.5e's more complex classes, and this is likewise an enormous project: "(to-) keep the flavour and style of the Binder, but keep the mechanics in line with 5e's streamlined approach."

We have a LOT of work still to be done, and everyone is welcome to recreate (or invent!) Vestiges, offer class features, point out balance issues, etc. and open them to discussion!

So, without further adieu...
BINDER
Binders are students of Pact Magic, an ancient and secret lore that allows them to call to entities that live beyond the known planes, in the spaces between the worlds. Through a combination of forgotten magics and complex bargains, they persuade or compel these beings to serve them - though not always without price.

Beyond Reality
A binder learns to cast their mind into the void between the planes, and to search the fractal wilderness there for beings that will answer their call. These beings -called vestiges- are remnants of powerful beings residing in the chaos outside of reality, born from the last echoes of the world's creation, and from energies that leak out of the planes. Pact Magic scholars seek out these vestiges and pass down legends of their origin. They learn of their personalities, abilities and motivations, all of which vary wildly from reasonable and relatable to deeply inscrutable.

A Bargain Sealed
In order to obtain the services of a vestige, a binder must strike a deal with that vestige, and use their magic to make the terms of the agreement totally binding. Knowing this, the vestiges will often seek to outwit the binder, adding loopholes and ambiguity into the terms of the bargain, making every deal a grave risk for the binder.

Class Features
As a binder, you gain the following class features:

Hit Points
Hit Dice: 1d8 per binder level
Hit Points at 1st Level: 8 + your Constitution modifier
Hit Points at Higher Levels: 1d8 (or 5) + your Constitution modifier per binder level after 1st

PROFICIENCIES
Armor: Light armor
Weapons: Simple weapons
Tools: Occult Set (described in the section on New Equipment below)
Saving Throws: Charisma, Wisdom
Skills: Choose two from Arcana, Deception, History,Persuasion and Religion.

EQUIPMENT
You start with the following equipment, in addition to the equipment granted by your background:

(a) a light crossbow and 20 bolts or (b) any simple weapon
(a) a component pouch or (b) an arcane focus
(a) a scholarís pack or (b) a dungeoneerís pack
Leather armor, an occult set, and two daggers

Quick Build:
To make a Binder quickly, consider the following suggestions: Charisma should be your highest stat, followed by constitution or dexterity. Strength may also be important for more melee-oriented binders or those planning to take the Warped Fate. Next, choose the Charlatan Background.



The Binder


Level
Proficiency Bonus
Features
Vestiges bound
Vestige Level


1st
+2
Soul Binding, Renegotiation
1
1


2nd
+2
Suppress Sign, Soul Guardian
1
1


3rd
+2
A Binder's Fate
1
2


4th
+2
Ability Score Improvement
1
2


5th
+3
Augmented Pact
2
3


6th
+3
Trusted Vestige
2
3


7th
+3
A Binder's Fate Feature
2
4


8th
+3
Ability Score Improvement
2
4


9th
+4
Adamant Mind
2
5


10th
+4
Augmented Pact (2)
3
5


11th
+4

3
6


12th
+4
Ability Score Improvement
3
6


13th
+5
A Binder's Fate Feature
3
7


14th
+5
Augmented Pact (3)
4
7


15th
+5

4
8


16th
+5
Ability Score Improvement
4
8


17th
+6
A Binder's Fate Feature
4
9


18th
+6
Augmented Pact (4)
5
9


19th
+6
Ability Score Improvement
5
9


20th
+6
Everlasting Pact
5
9



SOUL BINDING
In your studies, you have uncovered the means to pierce the very fabric of the planes and call to what lives beyond. At 1st level, you learn how to contact a vestige and bind it to a magical agreement. By doing so, you allow a vestige to reside in your soul, and adopt it's physical sign on your body, (unless you have the Suppress Sign class feature, detailed below).
At first level, you can bind one vestige, and can bind more vestiges at higher levels, as shown in the Vestiges Bound column of the binder table. At any given day, you can only bind vestiges whose combined level is no greater than your binder level.

Once per day, upon completing a long rest, you perform a ritual taking 1 minute per each vestige you wish to summon, you draw the unique seal of the vestige you wish to contact on a surface, each forming the vestige's image at least 5 feet across, and speak the name and title of each vestige in turn. When it is properly summoned in this fashion, a vestige manifests a harmless illusion above their seal to represent it's presence. and you must make a charisma check against the vestige's pact DC. this process is called Binding. If you succeed the binding, you convince the vestige to cooperate, and you make a good pact. it becomes bound to you, and you gain the powers and abilities granted by the vestige for 24 hours.

If you fail the binding, the vestige is still be bound to you, and you receive the powers of that vestige, but it will impose it's personality on your behavior at every opportunity it gets. this is called making a poor pact. You gain the powers and abilities granted by the vestige for 24 hours, but your DM also chooses one personality trait, ideal, bond or flaw to impose upon your character's personality, from the options presented in that vestige's entry. And you must act upon it as you would any other aspect of your character. You can choose to resist a vestige's influence, which, At the DM's discretion, is a breach of your pact with that vestige. If you do breach your pact, You lose the benefit of 1 pact augmentation (detailed further in this post) selected by the DM until you spend a short rest sincerely grieving and soul searching in isolation. If the breached pact ends before you make amends in this fashion via a short rest, you will have disadvantage when Binding the next time you summon that vestige.

In addition, certain conditions may arise when making a pact with a vestige that offer advantage or disadvantage while binding with a vestige.
A VESTIGE'S INFLUENCE

Aside from the consequences above for breaking the influence, A Binder who makes a poor pact is expected express the vestige's influence just as he would any trait, ideal, bond or flaw on his character sheet. The DM has the power to decide the influence that will serve his story better at the time. This usually results, technically, with the DM making an important roleplaying decision on a character's personality, and posing a difficult dilemma for the party to deal with. To maintain a sense of fairness, and compensate for what could otherwise be a lose-lose situation, the DM is encouraged to reward a player with inspiration or other kind of reward for staying true to his/her influence, when choosing to do so is becomes a difficult decision, or could put the Binder or his party in a tight spot.
The Difficulty class for saving throws caused by any of your class features or by features granted to you by vestiges is equal to 8 + your Proficiency Bonus + your Charisma Modifier.

For specific vestige and further information on creating them, check out the Vestige Codex (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?471443-Scarce-s-Vestige-Codex-(5e-Binder)&p=20168938).

The number of vestiges any given binder knows of is intentionally vague and subjective from one table to another, to allow a Binder to easily adapt to high fantasy "simplified" games as well as low powered or grittier games and all in between. Below are examples to approaches you could try:

Pact Magic is an organized practice: pact magic has a firm place in the campaign, (whether or not it is a legitimate practice is at the DMs discretion), as in such a campaign it is usually viewed as synonymous to black magic and devil worship. You start with every vestige of every level you can cast, but witch hunters/witch slayers are likely to seek out aspiring binders, particularly so at higher levels.
Vestiges as an adventure Hook or as treasure: Vestiges are known and Feared as myths, but evidence of their existence is usually disguised as mysterious markings on ancient sites, or as symbols of factions or on mystic or spiritual relics. You begin play with up to 3 vestiges at 1st level, and must seek out other vestiges and research them independently. for games beginning at higher levels, some additional vestiges should known to compensate as appropriate. With this option, The DM has more control of which (and how many) vestiges the player can have, and might reward the binder with a new vestige for reaching key storyline locations, or hide it as an "Easter Egg" for an observant player to seek out. The DM can, at his discretion, limit access some vestiges if they hinder or are important to the campaign, and can choose to offer these reserved vestiges as additional rewards if he or she desires.
Vestiges by level: a simple, more moderate approach is to add vestiges known as part of level advancement. you begin play at 1st level with three 1st level vestiges, and learn one new vestige of any level you can summon each time you gain a level. In this method, Pact Magic might have it's cult(s) following, or books of lore containing vestige seals that life scholars into the art.

Work with your DM and agree on how many vestiges you begin play with, and how you learn of new vestiges. you could variate from and mix the above options as both you and your DM see fit.

RENEGOTIATION
Once per day after you finish a short rest, you can choose to perform a the ritual of binding a second time to renegotiate any or all of the bargains you have made with vestiges. This allows you to expel a bound vestige early, and bind another, When you choose to renegotiate in this way, you can expel and bind vestiges whose combined level is no more than half your binder level. (Rounded up)

For example, as a 12th-level binder, you can renegotiate up to 6 levels-worth of vestiges. You might use them to expel one 4th-level vestige and bind a 2nd-level vestige in its place.

UPDATE 9/12/15: Once you expel a vestige by Renegotiation, it will hold somewhat of a grudge for ending the pact early. Any vestige you expel before 24 hours have passed will not answer your further attempts to call upon it until you complete a long rest, and you have disadvantage on the Charisma check you roll the next time you bind that vestige.(Thanks to The_Doctor for pointing this was missing!!)

SOUL GUARDIAN
At 2rd level, the vestiges you bind will help you to guard your mind. As long as you have a vestige bound, you have advantage on saving throws against being frightened.

SUPRESS SIGN
Starting at 2nd level, your control of the vestiges you summon improves. When you make a good pact, you can choose to suppress the physical sign of that pact. As a bonus action, you can suppress or restore the physical sign of any pact currently in effect. If you make a poor pact, that pact's sign cannot be suppressed.

A BINDER'S FATE
Starting at 3rd level, your soul begins to be affected by your exposure to the forces of the far realm and beyond it, and you much choose a destiny to embrace as part of your practice. Select a Binder Fate from the options available. There are currently five binder Fates are presented in this thread: Sealed, Released, Twisted, Occult and Eldritch, which are detailed later in the class description.
You gain another feature from the chosen Fate at 7th level, 13th level, and 17th level.

ABILITY SCORE IMPROVEMENT
When you reach 4th level, and again at 8th, 12th, 16th, and 19th level, you can increase one ability score of your choice by 2, or you can increase two ability scores by 1. You canít increase an ability score above 20 using this feature.

AUGMENTED PACT
At 5th level, you begin to learn of ways to get more out of your pacts with vestiges. You can choose one augmentation from the list at the end of the class description. This augmentation is active as long as you have a vestige bound. At 10th, 14th and 18th level you can choose additional effects from this list. You can not choose the same augmentation twice, unless otherwise stated in the augmentation's description. Additionally, when you choose a new augmentation, you can choose one of the augmentations you have and replace it with another that you could gain at that level.

Augmentations are powered by the vestiges you have bound. You must have one vestige bound for each active augmentation. For example, at 14th level, to have three augmentations active you must have at least three vestiges bound. You can choose which augmentations become active when you perform the ritual of binding, at which point they are fixed until you next perform the ritual. If a pact expires, if you breach your pact with a vestige, or a vestige being expelled leaves you with more augmentations than bound vestiges, you can choose which augmentations end, and they end immediately.

TRUSTED VESTIGE
Starting at 6th level, you begin to form a stronger relationship with a particular vestige. This vestige will respond more readily to your summons, and is more likely to obey without attempting to subvert the bargain. Choose one vestige that you have previously summoned and remained bound to for a continuous period of no less than 24 hours. You have advantage on your check when binding with that vestige. You can not select the same vestige twice, even if you would later get to choose again.

ADAMANT MIND
At 9th level, your experiences in sharing your mind with summoned vestiges teach you how to maintain control of your thoughts. You have advantage on saving throws against all spells and effects that control the mind. In addition, when you succeed on a save against such an effect, or a mind control effect affecting you ends, you automatically succeed any saving throws against that spell or effect until you finish a short rest.(Thanks to The Giant for helping us fix up this feature!)

EVERLASTING PACT
When you reach 20th Level, You can form a pact with a vestige without the confines of a limited window of time. You can bind with any vestige of 2nd level or lower, or with a Trusted Vestige, as an Everlasting Pact. when you form a everlasting pact with a vestige, it remains bound to you until you renegotiate your pact with it. You can only have 1 vestige bound in this fashion at a time. You no longer have disadvantage when trying to bind a vestige you expelled using your Renegotiation feature


Like with the old thread, Here's the thinking behind the design:
A vestige's level should be roughly analogous to the key spell slots gained at a given level, a good reference point when making vestiges is to avoid giving more than what a spellcaster at the same level is provided with.
It takes points to expel vestiges as well as bind them, meaning if you bind the max in the morning, you'll be less powerful after you renegotiate - you sacrifice power for versatility
Contrary to what you'd expect, only the really high level vestiges (7-9th level) might offer direct skill proficiencies, and only 8th level vestiges ought to offer saving throw proficiencies, if at all. This is because the binder gets access to 5 different vestiges per day, if each one offered a skill or save proficiency, it could easily take the class out of balance compared to the standard classes (I.e. having more skill proficiencies than the rogue is inherently disfunctional) . Likewise, avoid offering unrestricted expertise for the exact same reason.
Vestiges of 1st and 2nd level are considered to be "entry level" for the binder, this comes into play by the fact that their DCs are easy and their influences do not offer flaws. When a binder reaches fifth level, and is more confident and committed to the class, "the training wheels come off", so to speak - the binder can recieve flaws from binding with vestiges, and can have his pact augmentation taken away if he does not play by the influence. This is because it goes against my interests to scare early players away at the prospect of having another flaw.
If you max out, it is possible to get two 9th-level vestiges at once, which likely means 2 9th level spells in a day, which nobody else gets... but in order to do that, your entire binding capability besides those two will barely consist of anything else comparable to the levels we're talking about (17+).


V<<<Next post: Binder Fates (Post 2)>>>V

Prince Zahn
2015-07-28, 03:47 PM
A BINDER'S FATE
There are five Binder Fates Presented in this section: The Sealed, The Released, the Twisted, the Occult and the Eldritch.

SEALED FATE (Credit goes to Submortimer for design!)
A binder of the with the Sealed Fate forms a true partnership with a specific Vestige. She becomes that vestige's champion, Taking it's seal as her symbol, and actively advances her patron's desires and goals. In return, her patron grants her powers beyond that of other binders, enhancing her ability to fight on it's behalf.

PATRON VESTIGE
At 3rd level, select a 1st or 2nd level vestige which you have bound with a good pact before. That vestige becomes your patron vestige, your sword and your shield against those who might attempt to harm you. This confers on you a number of benefits:
- Should you make a poor pact with your patron, you can choose which influence you take.
- While bound to your patron vestige, you gain a fighting style from the following list:
Great Weapon Fighting, Two Weapon Fighting, Dueling, Protection, Mariner*
- While not wearing armor, your AC is equal to 13 + your dexterity modifier.

You can change your patron vestige after you have made this choice; doing so requires a ritual lasting 24 hours. The new patron must be of 2nd level or lower, or be one of your Trusted Vestiges. Following this change, you can bind only with your new patron vestige for a period of 7 days, and your previous patron will not answer you call for a period of 30 days.

*Mariner is in unearthed Arcana, an experimental rules source for those who want it. the official, final version of this fighting style has not been published yet. (as of Oct 3rd, 2015)

If someone could send me the wording on these fighting styles it would be greatly appreciated.


BONUS PROFICIENCIES
At 3rd level, You gain proficiency in Martial weapons and shields.

PATRON BOON
At 7th level, while bound to your Patron Vestige, you gain an additional pact augmentation.

PATRON STRIKE
At 13th level, your melee and ranged weapon attacks deal additional psychic damage equal to your charisma modifer.

PATRON'S AEGIS
At 17th level, your patron shields your form from harm, turning lethal blows and denying your death. When you bind to your patron vestige, you gain a pool of temporary HP equal to 5 + your charisma score. Once oer turn, when you strike a creature with a melee weapon attack, you can add a number of temporary HP to this pool equal to half the damage dealt. This pool has a maximum size of twice your charisma score.
These temporary HP are lost upon breaking your bond with your patron vestige, and the pool size resets to 5 + your charisma score when you finish a long rest.


(ON HOLD)RELEASED FATE (Credit goes to Anaximander19 for the idea and design!)
In their work with vestiges, binders study magics that pierce the planes and transcend the natural laws of the universe. Some even learn to leave behind their physical form and experience the world as a vestige would.

INTANGIBLE PRESENCE
At 3rd level, you learn to manipulate the fabric of the planes so that your presence makes less of a mark in the physical world. Once per short rest, you can make yourself indistinct and harder to detect. For one minute, or as long as you maintain concentration (whichever is shortest), you appear as a blurred and partly transparent shape. While this effect lasts, you gain a +10 bonus to Dexterity (Stealth) checks, and you can't be tracked by non-magical means. In addition, when standing on a surface, hanging, or being lifted, you appear to weigh half your normal weight, and you are not affected by non-magical wind and air currents. Once you use this ability, you can't use it again until you complete a short or long rest.

OTHERWORLDLY ESCAPE
At 7th level, your knowledge of the nature of existence allows you to alter your reality to avoid harm. When you take damage, you can use your reaction to turn invisible and teleport up to 60 feet to an unoccupied space you can see. You remain invisible until the start of your next turn or until you attack or cast a spell. Once you use this feature, you can't use it again until you finish a short or long rest.

WARP THE MIND
At 13th level, you gain a vestige's ability to alter the personality of a mortal mind. Once per short rest, you can choose any creature that you can see within 120 feet that is not a celestial, fiend, or fey. This creature must make a Wisdom save against your Binder spell DC. On a failed save, you can choose one effect from the following list:

Amnesia: the creature cannot learn new information. It will continue to act and react as they would normally, but at the start of each turn they choose their actions as they would have when the spell effect began. For example, if a creature that it previously considered friendly attacks, they will instinctively defend themselves, but on their next turn they will still consider the creature to be friendly. similarly, if an item is moved, they will still look for it in its old location first, and begin searching from there.
Recklessness: the creature acts without thought for its own safety. The creature takes a -2 penalty to AC and has disadvantage on all saving throws. The creature will not act counter to its interests or take actions that are purely self-harming, but it will not attempt to avoid taking damage from environmental effects, traps, etc. while carrying out its actions.
Meakness: the creature acts without assertiveness or belief. The creature has disadvantage on all skill checks and Charisma saves. In addition, if the creature has any ability or spellcasting that can be resisted with a Charisma save, the DC for that save is reduced by 2.
Fury: the creature cannot control its temper, becoming aggressive and volatile. The creature is quick to anger, even towards friends. In combat, the creature will attack whichever creature last dealt it damage. It cannot maintain concentration for more than one round.

The effect lasts for 1d6 rounds, or until you lose concentration, whichever is sooner.

UNREALITY
At 17th level, you can cast Etherealness on yourself without using a spell slot or components. Doing so reduces the duration to "Concentration: up to 1 hour". You can use this feature up to twice. Any expended uses of this feature are regained after you finish a long rest.
(tentative until someone has a better idea)

TWISTED FATE
Binders are usually feared and hunted as heretics, or as monsters. As a result of whispered rumors of corruption and heresy, most binders take great pains to keep their craft hidden. Through great practice and great courage do those who take upon themselves the Warped Fate claim unnatural powers of their own. They embrace the monster that grows in their souls with each pact they form.


(note: see if subclass needs the following proficiency. It occured to me that now that none of the vestiges are offering a skill proficiency - I hope! -it's a little easier to give stuff like a skill proficiency in a subclass, full-fledged martial weapon proficiency, or a saving throw at a high enough level. Because we countered the big risks of skill/save inflation via vestiges.)

BONUS PROFICIENCY
Starting at 3rd Level, You gain proficiency in the Intimidation skill.

UNNATURAL WEAPON
Starting at 3rd level, you gain your own physical sign that betrays your affiliation with pact magic, which you could use as weapon. The exact appearance and shape of your physical sign is up to you. You have one such disfigurement at 3rd level, and gain another another one starting at 13th level. You can choose the same sign twice, it's effects stack: When you deal damage with your unnatural weapon, you roll an additional damage die, and benefit from any additional effects a second time.
Once you have chosen an unnatural weapon, it can not be changed. You can show or supress this sign as a bonus action. Choose one of the following options:
Tentacles. You grow a pair of whipping tendrils. You can attack a creature with these tentacles as an unarmed strike, dealing 1d6 bludgeoning damage on a hit.
Tail. You grow a muscular, prehensile tail. You can attack a creature with your tail as an unarmed strike, dealing 1d4 bludgeoning damage on a hit. Additionally, you can use your tail as an extra limb to perform very simple actions, such as opening a door or retrieving an arrow from a quiver. While you do so, it may not use it to hold a weapon or make an unarmed strike.
Spines. You grow a series of bony, pointed spines. You can attack a creature with your spines using an unarmed strike, dealing 1d4 piercing damage on a hit. Additionally, when you end your turn grappling a creature, you deal 1d4 piercing damage to that creature.

The exact nature of this disfigurement is up to you, as long as it can reasonably fit as the the option you selected. Additionally, when you use the Attack action on your turn to make an unarmed strike, you can use a bonus action to make an unarmed strike with each of your other unarmed strikes once each. You donít add your ability modifier to the damage of any of these additional attacks, unless that modifier is negative. You can not use the unattural weapon in conjuction with the normal unarmed strike described in the Player's Handbook (under Weapons)

ALTER SKIN
at 7th Level, you can adapt your skin and body with the aid of the slowly awakening monster with you. Changing it's hue and structure or otherwise providing an abnormal benefit. Choose from one of the following options:

Adaptative. you have advantage on all Constitution saving throws against environmental conditions that would cause fatigue (i.e. extreme heat or cold, high air pressure).
Camouflage. You can shift the color of your skin. You can attempt to hide whenever you are adjacent to a solid surface larger than you with a uniform color or simple pattern. (i.e. tall trees, stone walls, a Noble House corridor, etc.
Amphibious. you grow gills and fins. you can breath normally water as well as in normal air, and you gain a swim speed equal to your land speed.

Once you have chosen your alter skin feature, it cannot be changed. You can activate and suppress this feature as an action.

INDISCERNIBLE ANATOMY
At 13th level, the placement and composition of your internal organs shifts to be bizarre and logic defying. You take no additional damage from critical hits.

OTHERWORLDLY
When you reach 17th Level, you can manifest the eldritch beast within you and can fill take it's image. For 1 minute, your type changes to Aberration, you become Large sized, and select one of the following benefits:
Siphoning. Once per turn, when you hit with an attack you gain from your unnatural weapon feature, you can force the target to make a constitution saving throw. If it fails, it takes 1 level of exhaustion. In addition, Whenever one or more creatures fails the saving throw against a feature you gained from binding a vestige, you regain hit points equal half your level (rounded up or down?).
Impervious.When you first gain this feature, Choose 3 types of damage. once you have selected them, they cannot be changed. You have immunity against damage from the types you selected. The immunities you selected do not apply to damage from magical weapons.
Dire. the damage dice of each of your unarmed strikes increases to d8s, if it was not already higher.

Once you have chosen the benefit for this feature, you can not change it. You can end the effects of Otherworldly before the duration has expired. Once you have used this feature, you can not use it again until you complete a long rest.

OCCULT FATE (Credit goes to Submortimer for the idea and design!)
Vestiges are highly alien, frightening, and volatile beings; binding is, therefore, a rather dangerous business. Binders who follow the Occult Fate seek to stabilize their practice though ritual and study, focusing on the art and skill of binding above all else.

OCCULT SPECIALTY
At 3rd level select three vestiges you know that you have made a good pact with; these vestiges must be at least 1 level lower than your highest known vestige level, and can not be higher level than 6. You can bind one of these vestiges without it counting against your daily limit of vestige levels, or number of vestiges bound. You can expel this vestige normally, but you can not renegotiate a new vestige in it's place. once you use this ability you must finish a long rest before you can do so again.
You can select an additional vestige at 7th, 13th, and 17th level.

OCCULT PHENOMENON
At third level, you gain the Mage Hand Cantrip and either the Prestidigitation, Thaumaturgy, or Druidcraft cantrips.

EMPTY VESSEL
At 7th level, you can attempt to bind one of your Occult Speciality vestiges into either another willing host (that is not a binder) or a recently deceased humanoid or animal body, though this process takes much longer than the usual binding ritual. Following a 10 minute ritual, make a binding check with disadvantage against that vestige; success binds the target, failure binds the vestige to yourself with a bad pact. Doing so counts as if you had bound the vestige to yourself, and as such counts against your total levels of bound vestige and number of vestiges bound in a day.
A living target you bind a vestige to gains all the benefits of having bound that vestige himself with a bad pact, but otherwise remains in control of his form. A body you bind a vestige to gains all of the abilities of the vestige in question, and is otherwise a normal creature of it's type*, acting on your initiative. The creature is not under you direct control: while it generally acts as you direct, it is treated as having both influences of the bound vestige, and will not ignore them under any circumstance, even if that results in personal harm. In either case, if the creature dies or is killed again, the bond breaks immediately; if lost in this fashion, any levels of vestige used are unusable until you finish a long rest. You cannot bind the same vestige to multiple creatures (including yourself) at the same time.
You can place a pact on one other creature at 7th level, and an additional one at 17th level.
*if the creature is deceased/undead, why does it retain the same stat block as a living creature of it's type?:smallconfused:

MEDIUM
At 13th level, you learn to channel vestiges with much greater efficiency and fluidity. When renegotiating your pacts following a short rest, you can expel any or all of your current vestiges, and make new pacts as if it was following a long rest; you still can not exceed your maximum number of vestiges bound at one time. As well, you do not have disadvantage when attempting to re-bind an expelled vestige within 24 hours.
After using this ability to renegotiate your pacts, you can not do so again until you finish a long rest.

MASTER SUMMONER
At 17th level, you learn to expedite the binding process to the point that you can swap vestiges in the blink of an eye. As an action, you can expel a bound vestige and bind a new vestige, following the standard rules for renegotiation. You can not use this feature again until you finish a long rest.

ELDRITCH FATE (Credit goes to Submortimer for the designing this subclass!)
Though Binding is not spellcasting in the usual sense, it is not altogether different. Binders who follow the Eldritch Fate learn to take that skill and apply it to magic of the proper sort. As well, they learn to exploit their connection to the vestiges they bind, which they refer to as Anima, taking the power they give and channeling it directly into magical might.

PACT MAGIC*
At 3rd level, you gain the ability to cast spells.

CANTRIPS
You learn two cantrips from the sorcerer spell list. You learn an additional cantrip at 8th, 13th, and 19th level.

SPELL SLOTS
You gain two pact magic spells slots, and an additional one at 14th level. Your spell slots are all if the same level, and always of the highest level that you can cast. you regain any expended spell slots when you finish a short rest.

SPELLS KNOWN
You know a number of spells from your chosen spell list as determined by the Eldritch Fate spells known table. Additionally, you can chose an additional known spell from the warlock, sorcerer, or bard spell list when you bind a vestige; you lose knowledge of that spell when that vestige departs. Spells learned in this way must be lower than or equal to the highest level spell you know. Whenever you gain a level in this class, you can replace one of the sorcerer spells you know with another spell of your choice from the sorcerer spell list. The new spell must be of a level lower than or equal to the highest level spell you can cast.
*With subclasses that grants limited access into arcane magic, such as Arcane Trickster or Eldritch Knight, their versatility in the form of spells known is likewise limited in two ways: they get substantially fewer spells known compared to the spellcasting model, and they get relatively little freedom for selecting their schools of magic. this subclass should reflect that in regards to it's model class - the warlock.

Eldritch Fate Spells Known



Binder Level
Spell Level
Spells Known


3rd
1
2


4th
1
2


5th
1
3


6th
1
3


7th
2
4


8th
2
5


9th
2
5


10th
2
6


11th
3
6


12th
3
7


13th
3
7


14th
3
8


15th
3
9


16th
4
10


17th
4
11


18th
4
12


19th
4
13


20th
4
13



SPELLCASTING ABILITY
Charisma is your spellcasting ability for your sorcerer spells, since the power of your magic relies on your ability to project your will into the world. The Difficulty Class for any of your Eldritch Binder spells is equal to 8 + your Charisma Modifier + your Proficiency Bonus.

ANIMA CASTING
At 3rd level, you learn to exploit your bound vestiges for magical power. As a bonus action, you can convert a vestige you currently have bound into a single spell slot or multiple smaller spell slots. The total spell slot level is one lower than the level of the vestige used*. Once you have done so, you lose access to that vestige's powers until you finish a long rest, and you cannot renegotiate your pact with it.
Using this ability, you can make and use spell slots of a higher level than you normally have available. Doing so is highly dangerous: when attempting to use a slot of a higher level than you normally gain*, you must make a concentration check; failure causes the spell slot to be lost, and you trigger an effect from the Wild Magic table, presented in the sorcerer's class description in the Player's Handbook.
*This conflicts with the subclass's basic and fundamental rules of spellcasting, it makes tracking spell slots a needlessly complex issue, and infringes any hard caps on this subclass's total power.

ANIMA SHIELD
At 7th level, you force a bound vestige into being your personal watchdog. While you are bound to a vestige with a good pact, you add your proficiency bonus to your initiative modifier, and you cannot be surprised.

ANIMA MARK
At 13th level, you learn to mix your arcane power with your skills at vestige seal-crafting. During a ritual taking 1 minute, you inscribe a personal mark on a willing creature you can touch. The Mark lasts until dismissed, after which it fades away; it cannot be erased or dispelled by magic short of a Wish. The Mark disappears if you die, or if the creature bearing it dies. Once you mark a creature in this fashion, you can not do so again until you finish a long rest, and you cannot have more than one marked creature at a time.
A marked Creature is bonded to you, much the same way you are bonded to your vestiges. This grants a number of benefits to the bonded creature:

While you are within 1 mile of your bonded creature, you can communicate telepathically with it, even if you do not share a language.
As long as the creature bearing your Mark is on the same plane as you, you know which direction the creature is in. If the creature dies, you are instantly aware of it.
You can choose to cause any any spells you cast with a range of personal to affect your bonded creature as well, and you can cast spells with a range of Touch on your bonded creature as long as they are within 60 feet.
As a reaction, you can cause your mark to surge with power. Doing so allows your bonded creature to re-roll a failed attack roll, saving throw, or skill check. You can not do so again until you finish a short or long rest.


ANIMA MASTERY
At 17th level, you can use your vestige's bonds as a conduit to the Far Plane, gaining powerful insights at a possibly deadly cost. You can sacrifice vestige you have bound: doing so allows you to cast any warlock or sorcerer spell of the same level as the vestige you sacrificed. Sacrificing a vestige causes you to lose the abilities of that vestige, and you cannot renegotiate that pact until you finish a long rest.
You can use this ability to cast spells of a higher level than your pact magic would allow. When using this ability to cast a spell of 5th level or higher, you must make a concentration check with a DC equal to 11 + the spell level: failure causes you to take 1d10 points of unavoidable and irreducible psychic damage + 1d10 per level of the spell cast.
Once you use this ability, you must finish a long rest before you can do so again.

V<<<Next Post: Agmentations (Post 3)>>>V

Prince Zahn
2015-07-28, 03:51 PM
AUGMENTED PACTS

Here are available options for the Augmented Pact class feature. There's always the option to make more if needed.

ARMOR OF THE VOID
You gain +1 to AC while not wearing armour. You can take this Augmented Pact multiple times, to a maximum of 3 times.

BORN OF CHAOS
You gain a +2 on all initiative rolls.

ELEMENTAL RESISTANCE
You gain resistance to one energy type: acid, cold, fire, electricity, or sonic. You can take this Augmented Pact multiple times, selecting a different energy type each time.

IMMORTAL ESSENCE
Your Hit Point maximum and current Hit Point total increase by 5. You can take this Augmented Pact multiple times

OTHERWORLDLY SIGHT
Prerequisite: Darkvision
You can see normally in magical darkness out to 30 feet. You can take this augmented pact twice, if you do, it's distance becomes 90 feet.

SHARED CONSCIOUSNESS
You are immune to magical sleep effects. When you are above 0 hit points and an effect would render you unconscious, you can make a DC 15 Constitution save to avoid it.

IMBUED REALITY
You can cast the Phantasmal force Spell once without expending a spell slot. You regain use of this ability after you finish a long rest. You can select this Augmented Pact multiple tiomes, each time you take this pact augmentation, you gain another use of Imbued Reality before needing a long rest.

PATRON'S SKILL
Prerequisite: 6th level, Sealed Fate
While you are bound to your Patron Vestige, You can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the attack action on your turn.

PATRON'S BLADE
Prerequisite: 7th level, Sealed Fate
Your patron's power flows through your weapons. You can treat any weapon you wield that you are proficient in as magical.

MONSTROUS FLURRY
Prerequisite: Twisted Fate
When you make an unarmed strike with an unnatural weapon, or an unarmed strike granted by a vestige, you can use your bonus action to make one unarmed strike with each other natural weapon you possess. You do not add your ability modifier to your damage on any of these additional attacks.

HIDEOUS STRENGTH
Prerequisite: 7th level, Alter Skin class feature
When you use an Unnatural Attack to make additional unarmed strikes, you can add your ability score modifiers to damage.

MUTABLE FORM
Prerequisite: Twisted Fate, Binder level 10
You can cast the Alter Self spell without using a spell slot.

ANIMA SIGHT
Prerequisite: Eldritch Fate, Binder level 10
As an action, you can abandon your senses, allowing you to perceive the world through your bonded creature. This lasts for as long as you maintain concentration on it.

ANIMA KNOWLEDGE
Prerequisite: Eldritch Fate
You learn one additional spell of any level you can cast from the sorcerer or warlock spell list.

POLTERGEIST
prerequisite: Occult Fate
Upon binding to one of your Occult Specialty vestiges, you summon an Unseen Servant as per the spell. It remains in existence until it reaches 0 Hit points or until you break your bond with that vestige. You can select this Augmented pact multiple times.

OCCULT BASTION
prerequisite: Occult Fate, Binder level 10
You and any creatures you have bound a vestige to via Empty Vessel gain a +2 bonus to a type of saving throw. You can select this Augmented Pact multiple times, selecting a different saving throw each time you take it.

HAZY VISAGE
prerequisite: Released Fate
Your connection to the far realm begins distorts your corporeal form, causing creatures to mistake your location. On any turn you do not move, you can, as an action, distort space around you; Attacks against you have disadvantage while you are under this effect. This effect lasts until either you move or you are hit by an attack.

UNFETTERED STEP
Prerequisite: Released Fate, binder level 10
Your ever more insubstantial form allows you to traverse the world you see with effortless ease. While under the effect of your Intangible Presence ability, you gain the benefits of the Spider Climb and Jump spells.

V<<<Next Post: Additional Materials (Post 4)>>>V

Prince Zahn
2015-07-28, 03:52 PM
Post Reserved for anything needed: FAQs, magic items, feats, monsters, and any expanded tools for a Pact Magic themed campaign. that we can come up with that doesnt directly fall under vestiges. If you make anything to support a Binder or pact magic themed setting/adventure, post it here!

NEW EQUIPMENT:
Tools:
Occult Set. (25 GP) all the tools a practitioner needs to summon a vestige are presented here. add your Proficiency Bonus when Binding with a vestige if you are proficient with these tools.
the set includes colored candles, incense, multi-colored sands and powdered metals, a vial of ink and quill, vials of various ritual components, several pieces of chalk or coal, a ceremonial knife, and an incomplete 100-page codex script or tome containing notes on vestiges and seals.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NEW FEATS:

WITCH SLAYER
Requirements: wisdom 13 or higher.
You are trained in mind, body, and soul to persecute those who are possessed by otherworldly forces, and who share their souls with condemned forces.
You have advantage on all intelligence, wisdom, or Charisma checks made to find relevant information on any creature who shares a body or soul with otherworldly beings (such as binders, or creatures possessed by unwanted spirits) or has otherwise sealed a pact with an otherworldly patron in exchange for power.
Whenever you take the dodge action, you also have advantage on all saving throws against magic for 1 round.
You can spend an action to sense the general direction and amount of any occult rituals taking place within 1 mile from your current location.
You can cast Dispel Evil And Good once, using wisdom as your spellcasting ability. In addition, you can end the Dispel Evil and Good spell early when you hit a target with a melee weapon attack, forcing the target to be incapacitated for 1d4 rounds if they have the Pact Magic or Soul Binding Class Feature. You can not cast this spell again until you have completed a long rest.


here's a vestige template for anyone interested in making vestiges to post here or for personal use. I swear by it, personally,:smallwink: but It's really more creation guidelines than anything else. If you have another idea for a vestige template, or have an upgrade to an existing template, post it and I'll add it here!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OCCULT NPCs

NOTE: The following is best enjoyed with flashcards of vestiges and their abilities, or other form of quick powers/abilities reference. This is untested material modeled after the NPC statblocks in the Monster Manual.
Practitioner
Medium/small humanoid (any race), any non-good alignment

Armor Class: 11 (Natural Armor)
Hit Points: 9 (2d8)
Speed: 30 ft.

STR: 10 (+0) DEX: 10 (+0) CON: 10(+0) INT: 10 (+0) WIS: 11 (+0) CHA: 14 (+2)

Skills: Arcana +2, Relgion +2
Senses: passive Perception 10
Languages: any two languages (usually common and infernal)
Challenge 1/4 (50 XP)

Soul Binding. The Practitioner is a 1st level Binder. It's ability for vestige related abilities is Charisma (Save DC 12, +4 to hit with Spell attacks). The Occult Initiate is bound to Dahlver-Nar and has the following Features:
Passive: Advantage on saving throws vs. Psychic damage. Natural armor
At will: Share Harm
1/short rest: Maddening Moan

ACTIONS:
Scimitar. Melee weapon attack: +2 to hit. Reach 5 ft. One Creature. Hit: 3 (1d6) Slashing Damage

Practitioners are pact magic servants who dabble into mysterious cults. The Practitioners are trained to use the strengths of others against them, but are secretly mocked among other cultists for their poor attention span when under Dahlver Nar's influence, and are often used as bait for more dangerous tasks.
---------------------------------
OCCULTIST
Medium/small humanoid (any race), any non-good alignment

Armor Class: 13 (Studded Leather armor)
Hit Points: 27 (5d8 +5)
Speed: 30 ft.

STR: 10 (+0) DEX: 12 (+1) CON: 13(+1) INT: 10 (+0) WIS: 12 (+1) CHA: 16 (+3)

Skills: Arcana +2, Relgion +2, Deception +5
Tools: any 1 type of artisan's tools.
Senses: passive Perception 11
Languages: any two languages (usually common and infernal)
Challenge 2 (450 XP)

Soul Binding. The Initiate is a 5th level Binder. It's ability for vestige related abilities is Charisma (Save DC 13, +5 to hit with Spell attacks). The Occult Initiate is typically bound to Focalor and Naberius, and would have the following Features:
Passive: Water Breathing, Inestimable Grief(Focalor), Advantage on Intelligence and Charisma skill Checks to deliver, discover or withhold potentially useful information.
At will: Shocking Grasp, Vicious Mockery, Noble Bloodhound, Disguise Self (1 minute casting time), Lightning Strike.
1/ Short Rest: Focalor's Breath
1/Long rest: Command

REACTIONS:
Aura of Sadness

ACTIONS:
Quarterstaff. Melee weapon attack: +2 to hit. Reach 5 ft. One Creature. Hit: 3 (1d6) Slashing Damage.I

------------------------------
OCCULTIST LEADER
Medium/small humanoid (any race), any non-good alignment

Armor Class: 16 (Chain Shirt)
Hit Points: 27 (5d8 +5)
Speed: 30 ft.

STR: 10 (+0) DEX: 14 (+2) CON: 9 (-1) INT: 12 (+1) WIS: 12 (+1) CHA: 17 (+3)
Saving Throws: Wis +4, Cha +6
Skills: Arcana +4, Relgion +4, Deception +6
Senses: passive Perception 11, can see perfectly through darkness and magical darkness
Languages: any two languages (usually common and infernal)
Challenge 6 (2300 XP)

Soul Binding. The Initiate is a 9th level Binder. It's ability for vestige related abilities is Charisma (Save DC 14, +6 to hit with Spell attacks). The Occult Initiate is bound to Tenebrous and Paimon, and has the following Features:
Passive: Advantage on Charisma (performance) to dance, tumble or whirl while holding a finesse weapon, Slay Light feature
At will: Blade Ward Cantrip, Grave Darkness, +1d4 Cold or Necrotic damage with melee weapon attack
Short or Long Rest: Combat Superiority, Dance of Death (See Paimon).

REACTIONS
Blink (See Tenebrous) 1/Long Rest.

ACTIONS:

Multiattack. The Occult Leader can make two rapier attacks as an action.

Rapier. Melee weapon attack: +5 to hit. Reach 5 ft. One Creature. Hit: 7 (1d8+2) Slashing Damage (+ 1d4 Cold or Necrotic damage.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NAME
Title
___ Level vestige
DC:
Seal:
Sign:
Manifestation:
Granted Abilities - the section below. at least one of these abilities should be unique to the binder.

PROFICIENCIES
Any necessary proficiencies, including tools, armor, weapons, languages (but not secret languages), avoid skill and save proficiencies at all costs. Those are a rare and difficult commodity, and given the class has so many moving parts and so much that could go wrong, it is best kept that way.

1 Ribbon, and/or advantage on theme-appropriate checks. (Only give skill proficiencies to heavy skill-based vestiges.) this also includes secret languages but is not limited to it. (For those unaware of the term, a ribbon is what the R&D team in WotC call small, fluff-driven features with little if any mechanical impact. They are usually harmless or situational enough not to be considered part of balancing a class, but be careful not to make a decorative feature too powerful.

1 situational feature, ideally offering versatility. Some more powerful vestiges may have a safety-net ability instead (I.e. abilities like the Monk's perfect Self, that help you can rely on to get you through an adventuring day easier, or aid to your general survivability/stamina.)

1 at-will ability or cantrip of the appropriate level. Or 2 for 1st level vestiges.

2 features, (or spells,) that recharge with rest that are level appropriate for the binder's level when the vestige is first attained. One of which can get stronger or provides additional uses at higher levels. Exceptionally high-level vestiges may get an ability that renews when rolling initiative instead.


PACT INFORMATION:

(retelling of the legend in a spoiler labeled "Legend"". if you want to go the extra mile, you can make changes you think would improve upon it's original, published counterpart in the sourcebooks,or write the legend in your own words (like I do!) but Copy/paste also suffices. notable factors when binding with a vestige.)

(A paragraph or so, describing the vestige's likes and dislikes, and other things a Binder might do that gets him rolling with dis/advantage to bind the vestige.)

If you make a poor pact with ___________, he influences your personality in one of the following ways:


Influence
Description


(Personality Trait/Ideal/Bond/Flaw)
(Influence A)


(Personality Trait/Ideal/Bond/Flaw)
(Influence B)


(This section is basically 2 (or sometimes more) ways a vestige could influence the binder when making a poor pact. Having a vestige's influence is essentially taking on a new Trait/ideal/bond/flaw for the day, with the exact same benefits and drawbacks of playing upon it. If you can mimic the formal lingo like in the PHB, it would be even better!
That being said, please avoid adding more flaws to a character for the first few levels of play. Likewise, avoid mixing crunchy mechanics and rules into a vestige's Influence beyond those you would see in a character's Role Playing, just like traits/ideals/etc. The biggest system incentive is Inspiration!)



NAME
Title
___ Level vestige
DC:
Seal:
Sign:
Manifestation:

PROFICIENCIES

(RIBBON/ADVANTAGE)

(SITUATIONAL FEATURE)

(AT-WILL FEATURE OR CANTRIP A)

(AT-WILL FEATURE OR CANTRIP B) [ONLY IF DEEMED NECESSARY]

(REST-POWERED FEATURE A)

(REST-POWERED FEATURE B)

PACT INFORMATION:
(LEGEND IN SPOILER)

(POSSIBILITIES FOR ADVANTAGE AND DISADVANTAGE ON BINDING __________)

If you make a poor pact with ___________, he influences your personality in one of the following ways:


Influence
Description


(Personality Trait/Ideal/Bond/Flaw)
(Influence A)


(Personality Trait/Ideal/Bond/Flaw)
(Influence B)





BINDER THREAD FAQ:
>>>How Many Vestiges do I get?
Depends on multiple things, but most importantly it depends on how you and your DM agree to address vestiges. For more information, check the Behind the Curtain with the same title in the original post.
>>>This class is way too O.P./U.P.!
Thank you for raising your opinion, but it's not going to help us get anywhere in the least if you don't tell us exactly what the problem is. Also, do you have any ideas on how we could solve or alleviate the problem you pointed out? If you can figure it out before us, that would speed up our bug-clearing process tenfold!
>>>Why is [Vestige_name] filed under one category in the Vestige Codex and not under a different one?
First of all, you are free to ask this, as it is indeed a good and valid question :smallsmile: for the most part, vestiges that were/are adapted from D&D 3.5e's canon, and were previously published by Wizards of the Coast, are a higher priority to the 5th edition Binder's completion than new and original or "fan" vestiges (though fan-made stuff is always nice every now and then!:smalltongue:) whereas miscellaneous vestiges are sorted alphabetically, standard vestiges are also sorted by the power level they are designed for. You are free to point out any injustice, but unless there really is a technical error, you should know that I have, in fact, given the filing system in the Vestige Codex a fair deal of thought.
>>>But this vestige is too awesome to be in the misc. category!
I think there's a misconception here. If your vestige winds up in the Misc. category, it is neither insult to your work, nor to the quality of the concept and it's execution. The misc. Category is practically our supplemental grab-bag, from which fans and whimsical designers alike can channel their creative energy into the things they love and admire in the form of a binder vestige, so that players and DMs could cherry pick any or all of those vestiges the admire for when they want something special for their campaigns. If you want to make a vestige based on a MLP:FIM character, for instance, it'll get equal treatment from an editing standpoint, but it will eventually be filed in the Misc. Vestiges for the exclusive enjoyment of people who share your opinions and admiration for it. I strongly doubt you could make a compelling enough argument that your fan vestige should be with the standard Vestiges, because truth be told not everybody would necessarily like nor share appreciation for the homage as much as you do, and you have to tolerate and respect that.
>>>But---!
I said YOU HAVE TO TOLERATE AND RESPECT THAT!:smallfurious:

...:smalltongue:
Nah, but seriously, don't badger me about stuff after I make my decision. Respect my opinion as director and the original poster who takes time out of his day to keep the project up to date. If you don't like it, address me politely about it via PM or something. but don't make a fuss about it if I disagree with you, it's not personal.:smallwink:
>>>Can/May I make a vestige?
Well of course you can and may!:smallbiggrin: In fact, I, personally, welcome YOU to get your feet wet and join us! If you have any questions to how it works, or are unsure about what mechanics to use, what our regulations and formats are, or even what vestige to make, don't hesitate to ask!
>>>Wait a minute, did you just say regulations?Oh, that... it's nothing to worry about! We'll guide you through the works where necessary. It's pretty much all mentioned as you read on in the discussion thread, and it expands as we discover more bugs in the system. things like how many vestiges should have a particular, stacking ability; or How to write a vestige's influences; the problems with offering skill and save proficiencies via vestiges; et cetera. You will find it all by reading into our conversations.
Worst case scenario: the thread gets really, really long, and I'll take the time to compile the many guidelines in making a vestige that we've accumulated over the lord-knows-how-longs!
>>>I just want to say I love this class! You guys are doing a great job!
Aww, thanks!:smallredface: the project that I - and every person here - contributed to, is truly an enormous one, and it's your kind words that keep us going. Go ahead, tell us more about what you like about the Binder. What do you look forward in seeing from the Binder? Trust me, We'll never get tired of hearing about it! :smalltongue::smallcool:
>>>I have a question...
Awesome! It shows me that I caught your interest:smallsmile: if you have any question, don't be shy about it! I look forward to hearing any questions you might have, even the hard ones.
Worst case scenario, if you are too shy to ask the massive thread, you can ask me personally. I'm available via PM 90% of the time, and if it's full, I make room shortly after I find out about that. At your request, I can also be discreet about it, just as long as we aren't breaking forum rules here, eh?:smallsmile:

Other than that, this should be about everything I need, I reckon. You may post any comments, critiques, questions or contributions! :smallbiggrin:

The_Doctor
2015-07-29, 09:43 AM
What level was this test, Doctor?
Just level 1, sadly.


EDIT: Heh, still creeped out by the Lama, I see.

Prince Zahn
2015-07-29, 09:58 AM
I have tested the binder!

He was the BBEG for the campaign, so I gave him a few extra HP, but that's it. The he managed to almost 1-hit K.O. the cleric of the group with Amon's fire breath (one round hold time). The cleric countered with some spell that did like 30 points of damage and then killed him. He then then used Sacred Flame a lot and incinerated the body.

The idjits killed someone I intended to be a recurring villain... or did they?

^Context^ :smalltongue:

The way Amon's breath is made, I intended it to be worth it's rounds in uses of Cantrips (in a 15 foot cone, though). From that combat scene, how do you think the vestige stood in terms of balance?

Prince Zahn
2015-07-31, 10:09 AM
Bumping the thread.
Currently working on filling out the blanks in the Binder's Fates. Starting with a serious retooling (and long awaited completionĖ) of the Warped Binder.:smallsmile:

As it turns out, my visions for what the binder should do with his subclasses, and what Anaximander thought he should do with it were not too far apart. :smallsmile: however, I intend to take at least the Warped Binder a step further - whereas the original involved the binder having his own physical signs that could be used to his advantage, I intend to take it a step further by gradually turning the binder into a monster! Mwahahaha...ha!

The version I'm making right now should be kind of like "at level X choose from the following options", so that you can better become a monster on your own terms. The format is similar to the totem barbarian and hunter ranger.

As things are right now, The Warped Binder has a "natural attack" that grows stronger if you are bound to vestiges whose signs meet a broad prerequisite. A bite attack gets poison, a ram attack gets to shove a creature in addition to an attack, the third option is claws, which I'm not sure what to do with them yet. (Any and all ideas and suggestions are welcome!)

I think I got the level 7 feature covered, but for level 13 I want something big, like a rest powered ability to change from a biped to quadrupedal, or serpentine, or... Maybe Oozelike? What kind of benefits might these entail, anyway? If anyone wants to help come up with that, they are welcome to contribute!


In the meantime, we could always use more Vestiges! If anyone has any questions about the class or vestiges, or wants to make one of their own, that would be awesomesauce!

ImSAMazing
2015-07-31, 04:13 PM
You got a Priest and a Mage and an archmage jn the MM. Why not a Binder and an Archbinder?

Prince Zahn
2015-07-31, 05:25 PM
You got a Priest and a Mage and an archmage jn the MM. Why not a Binder and an Archbinder?

Hmm... I like that idea :smallamused: yes... It should basically be a few fairly streamlined stat blocks, probably comparable in power to the templates you mentioned, for DMs to quickly implement a pact magic encounter. I can imagine this helping playtesting considerably :smallbiggrin:

Scarce
2015-07-31, 08:06 PM
I'm ready for another vestige project. Which one should I work on next? And which level should I make it?

Prince Zahn
2015-08-01, 02:29 AM
I'm ready for another vestige project. Which one should I work on next? And which level should I make it?

We don't have any 6th or 8th level vestiges, though all the even number levels are a little low.
Some examples of ToM vestiges that I think might be cool to see:
Haagenti,
Andras
Buer
Dantalion
Geryon
Chupoclops
Haures
Ipos
Shax
Zagan
Eligor
Orthos

(I would also want to give mention to psionic vestiges, since 5e psionic stuff are pretty popular right now, but they will likely be subject to further changes if/when WotC changes how psionics work.)

Unless you have another idea, or want to make something non-canon:smallsmile:

ImSAMazing
2015-08-01, 04:15 AM
Hmm... I like that idea :smallamused: yes... It should basically be a few fairly streamlined stat blocks, probably comparable in power to the templates you mentioned, for DMs to quickly implement a pact magic encounter. I can imagine this helping playtesting considerably :smallbiggrin:

It will help indeed, since I can and want to use it in my campaign. Make it done before next saturday :smallwink::smallbiggrin::smallfurious:

Prince Zahn
2015-08-01, 04:22 AM
Make it done before next saturday :smallwink::smallbiggrin::smallfurious:

:smalleek:
Not really used to taking orders, but I'll see if I can fit it into my schedule.

Are there any particular vestiges you would prefer them to use? Any specific Challenge ratings to aim for? What level is your party when this stuff is relevant?

ImSAMazing
2015-08-01, 05:00 AM
:smalleek:
Not really used to taking orders, but I'll see if I can fit it into my schedule.

Are there any particular vestiges you would prefer them to use? Any specific Challenge ratings to aim for? What level is your party when this stuff is relevant?

CR 4-5. Party is lvl 4, but they are buffed with items so they should be able to handle a CR 5 creature. It should be the bossfight of the Dungeon. The dungeon is about Abberations, so maybe an Aberation Vestiges Binder?

PotatoGolem
2015-08-01, 11:56 AM
Is there a reason that the Vestige Progression is the same as Spell Progression for a full caster until level 9 and then changes? Seems odd that you're one level out of sync from then on, and vestige level 4 is the only one you're stuck on for three binder levels.

Prince Zahn
2015-08-01, 12:27 PM
CR 4-5. Party is lvl 4, but they are buffed with items so they should be able to handle a CR 5 creature. It should be the bossfight of the Dungeon. The dungeon is about Abberations, so maybe an Aberation Vestiges Binder? You might have to work out the abberation part on your own, but I'll see what I can do on wednesday (see below)


Is there a reason that the Vestige Progression is the same as Spell Progression for a full caster until level 9 and then changes? Seems odd that you're one level out of sync from then on, and vestige level 4 is the only one you're stuck on for three binder levels. for one thing I tried to somewhat avoid linear progression where you just happen to get both a new vestige level and can hold another vestige at once. Instead, At level 9, you get to bind a 3 vestiges at once, and Adamant Mind, which can be quite valuable down the line. Then you 5th level vestiges at level 10, and then the progression continues. That's a move that might need a little playtesting down the line.
===========================
Anyway, I just wanted to say that starting tomorrow I'm going away for 3 days, and I don't know what the internet connection will be like. I'll try to stay informed but I can't guarantee I'll answer PMs or posts until I return. However, If anybody has any questions or things to point out, leave them here and I'll answer them as soon as I can! :smallsmile:

Spiriah
2015-08-02, 01:20 AM
Hey, I'm back! And with a completed Focalor, too:

FOCALOR
Prince of Tears
3rd Level Vestige

Bind DC: 16
Special Requirement: Focalorís seal must be drawn with a liquid medium.

Manifestation: Focalor manifests slowly, appearing first as a single tear that drops from thin air to strike the ground. Next his weeping eyes appear, and gradually his whole body becomes visible. Focalor looks like a handsome human male whose face is twisted by grief. He wears no clothes, but he cloaks his body in the griffon wings that grow from his back and shudder with each of his wracking sobs.

Sign: While you serve as host to Focalor, your eyes constantly weep, regardless of your mood or thoughts.

Abilities:

Focalor's Breath: As a standard action, you can exhale towards a living target within 30 feet. The target must make a Constitution save or be blinded as if by the Blindness/Deafness spell. You can use this ability once per short rest.

Water Breathing: For as long as you are bound to Focalor, you can breathe water as though you were under the effects of the Water Breathing spell.

Electrifying Touch: You gain the Shocking Grasp cantrip.

Inestimable Grief: While you display Focalor's sign, the sorrow that paints both your visage and your spirit makes you difficult to read. Insight or Perception checks attempting to discern your emotions or intentions have disadvantage, and you have advantage on saves against Detect Thoughts or similar effects that would read your mind.

Lightning Strike: Once per round as a standard action, you can call down a bolt of lightning that strikes any target you designate, as long as it is within 60 feet. The lightning bolt deals 3d6 points of lightning damage. A successful Dexterity save halves this damage. This ability functions outdoors, indoors, underground, and even underwater. At 10th level, the damage increases to 4d6, and at 14th level, the damage further increases to 5d6 and the range increases to 120 feet.

Aura of Sadness: You emit an aura of depression and sadness that can overtake even the most strong-willed of creatures. When a creature within 5 feet of you hits with an attack roll, you can use your reaction to sap its fighting spirit with feelings of guilt and misery. Until the end of its next turn, you can choose to impose disadvantage on one attack roll, ability check, or saving throw it makes. A creature with an Intelligence score of 4 or less isnít affected.



Influence:



Personality Trait:
You feel morose, and rarely smile or find cause to laugh.


Personality Trait:
Whenever you kill a creature, as soon as you have a peaceful moment, you take a round to says a few words of sorrow and regret for the life you cut short.




Decided to have Lightning Strike scale up 1d6 per 2 vestige levels, to a max of 5d6. It does slightly outdamage cantrips, but my reasoning for that is that you're devoting a portion of your main class feature to it rather than just having a cantrip available to cast whenever.

Still tweaking Ronove (Far Hand is a huge block of text in the original version and now I see why), and beginning to work on Otiax. Fist of Unbroken Air seems appropriate enough for Otiax's Air Blast, but I don't want to give the Binder a ki pool and once per rest seems kind of weak. Any suggestions? Should I build a new ability (melee spell attack at a 10ft reach for XdY bludgeoning, possibly multiple attacks at higher levels?) or figure out some way to incorporate FoUA?

Scarce
2015-08-03, 11:45 PM
I've got a 50% or so Ipos. Let's call it a level 2 vestige, unless it needs more power.

Ipos
King of Fools
Sign: You grow long, black, clawlike nails.

Planar Attenuation
Choose a plane of existence other than the Material Plane when you bind Ipos. You may move and act on that plane as if you were a native, and do not take penalties associated with being a non-native to this plane.

Cold Iron Claws
Your fingernails harden into cold iron, granting you a claw attack with each hand. Your unarmed strikes deal 1d4 slashing damage and count as magical for the purpose of overcoming resistance and immunity to nonmagical attacks and damage. At 12th level, this damage increases to 1d6.
Additionally, when you use the Attack action with an unarmed strike on your turn, you can make one unarmed strike as a bonus action.

Flash of Insight
As a bonus action on your turn, you gain truesight until the beginning of your next turn.

Ipos's Influence
When an ability you granted to you by binding another vestige calls for a creature other than yourself to make a saving throw, that creature has disadvantage. After using this ability, you cannot use it again until you complete a long rest.

Rend
When you hit a creature with both your claw attacks on your turn, you can deal an additional 2d6 slashing damage. After using this ability, you must finish a short long rest before using it again. At 7th level, this damage increases to 3d6.

PACT INFORMATION:
As a mortal scholar of deities and the planes, Ipos discovered vestiges and the process of binding long before their rediscovery in the current age. Although binder lore gives conflicting accounts of Iposís race and nation of origin, the legends agree that he was a mighty spellcaster with the power to travel the planes in his pursuit of knowledge.
Although he was interested in all subjects, Ipos had a particular passion for discovering the nature of the planes, magic, and the gods. Through his study of these topics, Ipos sought to discover the planar orderóthe set of fundamental laws within which the multiverse operated. Ipos did a magnificent job with his research, and his discoveries have been passed down through the generations. Yet he left such an incomplete vision of reality that later scholars and explorers had to expand upon his body of work. In the midst of his investigations, Ipos stumbled across vestiges and drowned in the depth of this knowledge. He could not conceive of beings that did not exist in some place, or that could not be reached via the planes or by deities. He became obsessed with finding the plane upon which the vestiges resided. He dropped the study of all other topics and threw himself into the task of finding a way to the realm of the vestiges. No one knows what happened after he made this mission his focus, but the fact that he now exists as a vestige lends credence to the idea that he discovered what he sought.

If you make a poor pact with Ipos, it affects your personality in one of the following ways:
Flaw: If a creature shows interest in a topic in which I am knowledgeable, I must truthfully, and at length, edify them.
Personality Trait: I think highly of my intellect and feel contempt toward those who question my assumptions and conclusions.

ImSAMazing
2015-08-05, 05:32 AM
It's time for my Binder monsters!

Prince Zahn
2015-08-05, 05:15 PM
Hey I'm back guys!
On to business!

@Sam: some NPCs you could use for playtesting are at the bottom of this post, do what you have to do to get them to feel right for your campaign. I'd save the last one for towards the very end, as he may be a little bit too rough for your guys at CR 5. If you want to use it anyway, consider getting your players to level 6 beforehand. They are mostly tough adaptations of existing MM NPCs so hopefully that won't be nearly as much of the experimental factor as the vestiges are.

@Ipos: it's a great start, I don't know what level you're registering him as so I won't dwell on that.
it's best we steer from the once in X rounds mechanic, as we don't know how that would interact with 5E. I would rather make the Truesight effect an at-will action that lasts for 1 round.
On Ipos's influence, keep it rest powered, as it is quite strong. Consider adding another use of it 5-7 levels ahead. Maybe more than +1...

@Spiriah I'll be in touch with you over what I think we could do with Ronove. I need a little time to think about that though.

NPCs

NOTE: The following is best enjoyed with flashcards of vestige a and their abilities, or other form of quick powers/abilities reference. This is untested material and could bear unpredictable results. Use with caution.
Practitioner
Medium/small humanoid (any race), any non-good alignment

Armor Class: 11 (Natural Armor)
Hit Points: 9 (2d8)
Speed: 30 ft.

STR: 10 (+0) DEX: 10 (+0) CON: 10(+0) INT: 10 (+0) WIS: 11 (+0) CHA: 14 (+2)

Skills: Arcana +2, Relgion +2
Senses: passive Perception 10
Languages: any two languages (usually common and infernal)
Challenge 1/4 (50 XP)

Soul Binding. The Practitioner is a 1st level Binder. It's ability for vestige related abilities is Charisma (Save DC 12, +4 to hit with Spell attacks). The Occult Initiate is bound to Dahlver-Nar and has the following Features:
Passive: Advantage on saving throws vs. Psychic damage. Natural armor
At will: Shield Self
1/short rest: Maddening Moan

ACTIONS:
Scimitar. Melee weapon attack: +2 to hit. Reach 5 ft. One Creature. Hit: 3 (1d6) Slashing Damage

Practitioners are pact magic servants who dabble into mysterious cults. The Practitioners are trained to use the strengths of others against them, but are secretly mocked among other cultists for their poor attention span when under Dahlver Nar's influence, and are often used as bait for more dangerous tasks.
---------------------------------
OCCULTIST
Medium/small humanoid (any race), any non-good alignment

Armor Class: 13 (Studded Leather armor)
Hit Points: 27 (5d8 +5)
Speed: 30 ft.

STR: 10 (+0) DEX: 12 (+1) CON: 13(+1) INT: 10 (+0) WIS: 12 (+1) CHA: 16 (+3)

Skills: Arcana +2, Relgion +2, Deception +5
Tools: any 1 type of artisan's tools.
Senses: passive Perception 11
Languages: any two languages (usually common and infernal)
Challenge 2 (450 XP)

Soul Binding. The Initiate is a 5th level Binder. It's ability for vestige related abilities is Charisma (Save DC 13, +5 to hit with Spell attacks). The Occult Initiate is bound to Focalor and Naberius, and has the following Features:
Passive: Water Breathing, Inestimable Grief(Focalor), Advantage on Intelligence and Charisma skill Checks to deliver, discover or withhold potentially useful information.
At will: Shocking Grasp, Vicious Mockery, Noble Bloodhound, Disguise Self (1 minute casting time), Lightning Strike.
1/ Short Rest: Focalor's Breath
1/Long rest: Command (3 targets)

REACTIONS:
Aura of Sadness

ACTIONS:
Quarterstaff. Melee weapon attack: +2 to hit. Reach 5 ft. One Creature. Hit: 3 (1d6) Slashing Damage.I

------------------------------
OCCULTIST LEADER
Medium/small humanoid (any race), any non-good alignment

Armor Class: 16 (Chain Shirt)
Hit Points: 27 (5d8 +5)
Speed: 30 ft.

STR: 10 (+0) DEX: 14 (+2) CON: 9 (-1) INT: 12 (+1) WIS: 12 (+1) CHA: 17 (+3)
Saving Throws: Wis +4, Cha +6
Skills: Arcana +4, Relgion +4, Deception +6
Senses: passive Perception 11, can see perfectly through darkness and magical darkness
Languages: any two languages (usually common and infernal)
Challenge 6 (2300 XP)

Soul Binding. The Initiate is a 9th level Binder. It's ability for vestige related abilities is Charisma (Save DC 14, +6 to hit with Spell attacks). The Occult Initiate is bound to Tenebrous and Paimon, and has the following Features:
Passive: Advantage on Charisma (performance) to dance, tumble or whirl while holding diners weapon, Slay Light feature
At will: Blade Ward Cantrip, Grave Darkness, +1d4 Cold or Necrotic damage with melee weapon attack
Short or Long Rest: Combat Superiority, Dance of Death (See Paimon).

REACTIONS
Blink (See Tenebrous) 1/Long Rest.

ACTIONS:

Multiattack. The Occult Leader can make two rapier attacks as an action.

Rapier. Melee weapon attack: +5 to hit. Reach 5 ft. One Creature. Hit: 7 (1d8+2) Slashing Damage (+ 1d4 Cold or Necrotic damage.)

Scarce
2015-08-06, 12:38 AM
@Ipos: I changed a few things, added Rend, and filled it to the brim with flavor text. Hopefully it has enough power to be level 2.

Scarce
2015-08-07, 01:43 AM
Got another one.

Andras
The Grey Knight
4th Level Vestige
Sign: You sprout two useless, gray-feathered wings from your back. The wings are small enough to be hidden beneath a shirt or cloak, but doing so makes you appear hunchbacked.

Bonus Proficiencies
While you are bound to Andras, you are proficient with the greatsword, lance, longsword, and rapier.

Find Steed
You can cast the spell find steed at will. When your pact with Andras ends, your steed is dismissed.

Saddle Sure
Also, instead of rolling checks for the Handle Animal skill, you can use 10 + your Handle Animal modifier as the result.

Improved Critical
Your melee weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20.

Sow Discord
Andras grants you the ability to sow discord among your enemies. As a bonus action when a creature you can see makes an attack, you can force that creature to make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, the creature instead attacks a creature you choose within its attack range.
You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Charisma modifier. You regain all expended uses on a long rest.

Smite Foe
You can attempt to slay your enemy with a single powerful blow. When you make a melee attack on your turn, you can choose to make this attack with disadvantage to attempt to slay your target. On a hit, you deal an additional 6d6 damage. If this attack reduces your target to 0 hit points, you can make additional attack against a creature within your reach. After successfully hitting a target with this ability, you must complete a long rest before using it again.


Andras was once an elf paladin famed for his prowess in battle and his implacable dedication to doing what was right and good for all. A series of misjudgments and misfortunes broke Andrasís faith in both himself and his deity, however, and he became a blackguard.
During his subsequent service to the dark gods, his infamy rapidly outgrew his fame, and his name was whispered in fear. After nearly three hundred years of almost constant battle on behalf of both good and evil, Andras grew tired of both causes. In the midst of a duel in the key battle of a great war, he simply dropped his weapon and left, never to be seen alive again. Sages speculate that after his betrayal of both causes, he was no longer welcome in any godís realm, and thus his soul was condemned to become a vestige.

If you make a poor pact with Andras, he influences your personality in one of the following ways:
Personality Trait: I am listless and emotionally remote.
Flaw:I tire of combat quickly. Without warning, I may simply drop my weapon and retire from battle.
I think I've addressed all of Zahn's problems. Still not sure if the power is on par for 4th level.

Prince Zahn
2015-08-07, 06:36 AM
@Ipos: I changed a few things, added Rend, and filled it to the brim with flavor text. Hopefully it has enough power to be level 2.It will be very hard to keep Ipos balanced at level 2 if you wish to offer Truesight, especially if it's easy to use.
Also: imposing disadvantage for free is also pretty strong.
Overall, I think Ipos is 1 of those vestiges who sits most comfortably in his default level (6th), because around the levels you receive a 6th level vestige the interplanar travel and traveling to the ethereal realm can potentially become more relevant, True Seeing is also a 6th level spell, which makes it our best reference point, unless you make some key nerfing.


Got another one.

Andras
The Grey Knight
4th Level Vestige
Sign: You sprout two useless, gray-feathered wings from your back. The wings are small enough to be hidden beneath a shirt or cloak, but doing so makes you appear hunchbacked.

Bonus Proficiencies
While you are bound to Andras, you are proficient with the greatsword, lance, longsword, and rapier. You are also proficient in Athletics, Acrobatics, and Animal Handling.

Find Steed
You can cast the spell find steed at will.

Improved Critical
Your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20.

Sow Discord
Andras grants you the ability to sow discord among your enemies. As an action, select 1 creature you can see within 30 feet of you to make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, the target is charmed by you for up to 1 minute while you concentrate on the effect. The charmed target must use its action before moving on each of its turns to make a melee attack against a creature other than itself that you mentally choose. The target can act normally on its turn if you choose no creature or if none are within its reach.
Also, the target can make a Wisdom saving throw at the end of each of its turns. On a success, the effect ends. After using this ability, you must complete a short or long rest before using it again.
[Not sure if I'm super happy with the way this came out. The original ability was basically crown of madness, so I mostly copied that text.]

Smite Foe
You can attempt to slay your enemy with a single powerful blow. When you make an attack on your turn, you can choose to make this attack with disadvantage. On a hit, you deal an additional 6d6 damage. After using this ability, you must complete a long rest before using it again.
[I don't love this one either, but I can't figure out how to make a paladin's smite work in this edition without spell slots.]


Andras was once an elf paladin famed for his prowess in battle and his implacable dedication to doing what was right and good for all. A series of misjudgments and misfortunes broke Andrasís faith in both himself and his deity, however, and he became a blackguard.
During his subsequent service to the dark gods, his infamy rapidly outgrew his fame, and his name was whispered in fear. After nearly three hundred years of almost constant battle on behalf of both good and evil, Andras grew tired of both causes. In the midst of a duel in the key battle of a great war, he simply dropped his weapon and left, never to be seen alive again. Sages speculate that after his betrayal of both causes, he was no longer welcome in any godís realm, and thus his soul was condemned to become a vestige.


If you make a poor pact with Andras, he influences your personality in one of the following ways:
Personality Trait: I am listless and emotionally remote.
Flaw: I tire of combat quickly, and will drop any weapon I carry and retire from any lasting longer than 10 rounds. I will return to battle no earlier than 1d10 rounds later.

As it stands, I'm happy with how brief things are, though there's a couple of things in here I'd like a second opinion on. Also, I'm not sure how it stacks up as a 4th level.
This is by far more progress than I made on Andras! Here are some notes:


Please refrain from giving away free skill proficiencies, as I've requested multiple times throughout this project.
The problem with Find Steed is that once you summon a steed with it, you can keep the steed indefinitely. It's part of the spell, and has nothing to do with the vestige's time limit. I reccomend either ruling a way around that (I.e. the horse being dismissed when the pact ends and/or only being able to call the steed again next time you form the pact), or switching to a spell like phantom steed (and limiting how many steeds you can summon with it if 31st will)
I don't see much harm in Improved Critical, except that it steps on the champion's uniqueness.
Sow discord.... It's Crown of Madness, right? :smalltongue: I think the fundamental problem between it and Andras is that Charmed is a low level buff. I think we can improve on it by (instead of forcing to attack) saying that (don't necessarily phrase RAW like I am writing, btw): the target actively fights and acts on his enemies' side on a failed (something) saving throw. And makes decisions that would be favourable to his adversaries instead of his allies. In this sense, your essentially causing an ally to temporarily be a traitor. Perhaps at higher levels, you could target more than one person, or use this more times between rests.
The smite is certainly better than what I could come up with. Is the use expended if you miss with disadvantage? Also, the attack is designed to slay a foe, Do you think there should be an added benefit/incentive for if you do slay a foe with it? Finally, what kind of damage is this smite ability?
Finally (and this goes same for everyone:) please do not mix mechanics with a vestige's influence. They are personality traits/ideals/bonds/flaws in every sense of the word, and those aren't concrete restrictions on a character.



I'm gonna do some reading on Ronove now so I'll hopefully have some intelligent things to say to Spiriah on the subject. Then I'm gonna start working on Karsus - I want to see if I can build a way around item-based vestiges that doesn't involve magic items at. All.

If anyone has any comments/questions/contributions/etc. You know what to do.:smallwink:

Prince Zahn
2015-08-07, 07:45 PM
Ladies and Gentlemen, I present: yet one more thing to playtest!
EDIT (Aug.13.15): fixed some of the feat's benefits and reworded others. How is it now?
Feat: Witch Slayer
Requirements: wisdom 13 or higher.
You are trained in mind, body, and soul to persecute those who are possessed by otherworldly forces, and who share their souls with condemned forces.
You have advantage on all intelligence, wisdom, or Charisma checks made to find relevant information on any creature who shares a body or soul with otherworldly beings (such as binders, or creatures possessed by unwanted spirits) or has otherwise sealed a pact with an otherworldly patron in exchange for power.
Whenever you take the dodge action, you also have advantage on all saving throws against magic for 1 round.
You can spend an action to sense the general direction and amount of any occult rituals taking place within 1 mile from your current location.
You can cast Dispel Evil And Good once, using wisdom as your spellcasting ability. Alternatively, you can end the Dispel Evil and Good spell early when you hit with a melee weapon attack, forcing the target to be incapacitated for 1d4 rounds if they have features that originate from consorting with beings beyond the material plane (such as Abberations, Celestials, fey, fiends, undead or vestiges). Once you have used cast the spell by means of this feat, you can not do so again until you have completed a long rest.


----------
This is my first time creating a feat for 5e, so PEACH to your best ability so that I may learn!
EDIT: My reasoning behind this feat is mostly to cover additional bases, provide additional support and tools for a setting that wishes to take on pact magic, and to help even the odds In favor the Binder's nemeses, as the binder is a class that lives on the run. Any feedback would be appreciated.

Scarce
2015-08-08, 03:55 PM
@Witch Slayer: I really don't like the second component of this feature. It's obtuse and not terribly effective. Perhaps simply change it to: When you take the Dodge action on your turn, you gain advantage on saving throw against magic until the beginning of your turn.

@Andras: I've edited all the features at least a little bit. I'm leaving Improved Critical alone for two reasons: Andras from 3.5 has the feature Sure Blows, which granted the improved critical feat, and because I think binding Andras should feel a little like playing a fighter. (As a side rant, I'm a fan of reusing mechanics wherever I can, because I think it makes things easier to read and play when you already know some of the mechanics from elsewhere. I never really think about it as stepping on toes, though quite a few people who comment on my blog tend to believe the opposite.)

Scarce
2015-08-13, 02:05 AM
Haures
The Dreaming Duke
4th level Vestige
Sign: While you are bound to Haures, your palms are where the backs of your hands should be, just as they are on a rakshasa. If you flip over your hands so that the backs are up, your thumbs end up on the wrong sides of your hands. This rearrangement has no effect on your Dexterity, spellcasting, ability to wield objects, or use of skills.

Deft Illusionist
You can cast the cantrips minor illusion and vicious mockery at will.

Inaccessible Mind
While you are bound to Haures, you have advantage on saving throws against being charmed or frightened, and on saving throws against any effect that would sense your emotions or read your thoughts.

Incorporeal Movement
You can move through other creatures and objects as if they were difficult terrain. This movement is limited to 5 feet each turn and does not provoke opportunity attacks. You take 2d10 force damage and are shunted to the nearest available space if you end your turn inside a creature or object.

Major Image
You can cast the spell major image without expending a spell slot or spell components. After using this ability, you must complete a short or long rest before using it again.

Phantasmal Killer
You can cast the spell phantasmal killer without expending a spell slot or spell components. After using this ability, you must complete a long rest before using it again.

Human history associates the name Haures with a powerful lord who terrorized his people. From the time he took the throne until his death, he kept his subjects at work building his castle, adding constantly to its grandeur and might. Workers at the castle would return with strange tales of building a room and then rebuilding it the next day because no sign remained of their previous dayís work. Then those who told such stories began to vanish in the castle, never to be heard from again. Although the castle grew with the additions made to it for the first few years, the constant construction seemed to have no effect on its size in later years.

When at last Haures died, his subjects rejoiced and attacked the castle, hoping to loot and set fire to the palatial structure. The mob of peasants found the castle empty, devoid even of its furnishings. Confused and frightened, they left, and the castle and the surrounding lands soon gained a reputation for being haunted.

Binder scholars believe they know the answer to the mystery of Hauresís disappearance and the strange construction of the castle. According to their legends, Haures was not a human at all, but a powerful rakshasa sorcerer in disguise. Much of the construction he demanded took place on the Ethereal Plane because Haures planned to continue his existence there as a ghost. He wanted his afterlife to be as much like his mortal life as possible, so he had his subjects build a nearly exact duplicate of his castle on the Ethereal Plane and cloaked their work sites in illusions to hide the truth. In the last months of his life, Haures brought many living and undead servants to his foggy realm, as well as all the comforts to which he had become accustomed.

For some time after his demise, Haures spent time on both the Material and Ethereal Planes. As a ghost, he would cloak the decaying castle on the Material Plane in bright illusions so that he could throw lavish parties for the travelers attracted to its warm glow. Then he would end the party suddenly, leaving his guests alone in the chilly ruins of his castle and delighting in their terror. As the years passed, fewer folk dared enter his home, and Haures began to throw illusory parties for himself to alleviate his boredom. As his sanity deteriorated, he became unable to distinguish between the Material and the Ethereal Planes, and even between his illusions and his own imagined experiences. At some point, Haures lost all sense of the difference between reality and dreams, illusion and imagination, and even life and undeath. This complete dissolution of these barriers propelled him into existence as a vestige.

If you make a poor pact with Haures, he influences your personality in one of the following ways:
Personality trait: I often take to speaking to myself and to my imaginary friends.
Flaw: I'm extremely uneasy around illusions that aren't of my own design.

Prince Zahn
2015-08-13, 03:58 AM
Made some changes to the Witch Slayer feat. How is it now?

@Andras Well there is definitely a point in keeping what makes a class unique exclusive. Granting the champion's improved critical option to other classes makes that archetype even less than par compared to other classes (why take a champion fighter the binder gets improved critical too?). #ImprovedCritical #toestepping
Strangely enough, I think it would be less of an issue by working with Combat Superiority like I did with Paimon (2 pre-determined, theme-appropriate maneuvers, with less d6s instead of standard 3d8s for the level, unless you already multiclassed into Battle Master Fighter). You can find Paimon in the Vestige Codex it you need an example. #AlternativeSolutions
@Haures I'll look at it later. I have a few things I wish to get done first but expect a review sometime soon.

Prince Zahn
2015-08-14, 10:32 AM
The following is a very rough draft of what I'm hoping would become an awesome subclass. I'm open to any and all suggestions for improving it and making it playable, PEACH like the best of them!.:smallsmile:

Without further adieu, I Present:

WARPED FATE [WIP]
While not strictly evil, Binders are usually feared and hunted as heretics, or as monsters. As a result of whispered rumors of corruption and heresy, most binders take great pains to keep their craft hidden. But great, unnatural might accompanies those courageous enough to take upon themselves the Warped Fate by calling upon the monster that grows in their souls with each pact they form.

UNNATURAL WEAPON
Starting at 3rd level, you gain your own physical sign that betrays your affiliation with pact magic, which you could use as weapon. The exact appearance and shape of your physical sign is up to you. Your sign given to you from Unnatural Weapon can be used interchangeably with a vestige's similar physical sign to determine if you can use a given feature. (I.e. Horns as an unnatural weapon can substitute for a vestige's granted horns if such required for a feature; claws can be a substitute for another sign required to make a claw attack, et cetera.)
Once you have chosen your unnatural weapon, it can not be changed. You can show or supress this sign as a bonus action. Choose one of the following options:

Fangs. Your teeth and jaws grow and turn razor sharp. You gain a Bite Attack, which you can make as part of (or in place of) your attack action. The attack deals 1d6 + your Strength modifier piercing damage. That attack fangs are considered magical for the purpose of overcoming resistance and immunity. If you are bound to at least one or more vestiges that offer a claw attack, and succeed to hit a creature with your bite attack, you can use the attack to inject a venom, forcing the creature to roll a Constitution saving throw. If it fails the saving throw, the attack deals an additional 1d8 poison damage for each point of proficiency bonus you possess. With the DM's permission, this unnatural weapon can instead manifest as a tail with a stinger, but would otherwise function identically.
Horns. one of more blunt, sturdy horns (or tusks) protrude from your skull. You gain a ram attack, which can be used as part of the attack action. The horns deal 1d6 + Your Strength modifier Bludgeoning damage, and are considered magical for the purpose of overcoming resistance and immunity. If you gain a ram or gore attack through other means, you deal 1d8 damage (instead of 1d6). In Addition, if you succeed on an attack roll using your ram attack while you are bound to a vestige that also gives you an attack with your head (such as a ram or gore attack), you can use your bonus action to attempt to knock the same creature back or prone (as per the rules for shoving a creature).
Claws. Your hands morph into bestial paws with a set of powerful claws with a very secure grip. While active, You get a claw attack that deals 1d6 + your strength modifier slashing damage, and is considered magical for the purpose of overcoming resistance and immunity. Each round a creature begins it's turns grappled by you while using your unnatural attack, that creature takes an additional 1d6 slashing damage for each point of Charisma Modifier you possess. In addition, while you wield your unnatural weapon, you can use your bonus action to have advantage on any Strength (Athletics) checks you make for 1 round. You can gain advantage on Strength (Athletics) checks this way a number of times equal to your Charisma Modifier, before needing a short rest to do so again .



ALTER SKIN
at 7th Level, you can adapt your skin and body with the aid of the slowly awakening monster with you. Changing it's hue and structure or otherwise providing an unusual benefit. Choose from one of the following options:

adaptative. you have advantage on all Constitution saving throws against environmental conditions that would cause fatigue (i.e. extreme heat or cold, high air pressure).
Camouflage. You can shift the color of your skin. You can attempt to hide whenever you are adjacent to a solid surface larger than you with a uniform color or simple pattern. (i.e. tall trees, stone walls, a Noble House corridor, etc.
Amphibious. you grow gills and fins. you can breath normally water as well as in normal air, and you gain a swim speed equal to your land speed.

Once you have chosen your alter skin feature, it cannot be changed.

WARPED FORM
At 13th Level
(Currently under development.)

UNWORLDLY EVOLUTION
When you reach 17th level,
(Currently under development.)

Scarce
2015-08-14, 04:34 PM
UNNATURAL WEAPON


I'm a little iffy on this for a couple of reasons. Firstly, you're turning the signs of a vestige into mechanical benefit, but the vestiges themselves haven't been balanced for having a diverse spread of sign locations. There could be a huge bias toward the head or the hands, for example, and that will make one unnatural weapon choice more powerful than the others.
Secondly, 1d8 for natural attacks at 3rd level might be a little powerful. It's basically longsword damage, and it can be argued that it's an unarmed strike, gaining a host of benefits from monk stuff. I would adapt the Alter Self spell's Natural Weapons text here for wording and balance. Hopefully, doing that will help the brevity of the feature a little.



ALTER SKIN
adaptation once per day upon completing a short or long rest, you can spend 1 hour you have advantage on all Constitution saving throws against harsh environmental conditions (i.e. extreme heat or cold, high air pressure) For 24 hours. In addition, you can also grow gills on your body, allowing you to breath normally underwater for up to 10 minutes multiplied by your Proficiency Bonus. Once you have altered your skin In this fashion, you can not do so again until you complete a short or long rest.


There's some good stuff here, but I would break the abilities up a little bit and give the benefits constantly. For example, choose from Aquatic Adaption (as per the Alter Self spell), Camouflage, or Extremophile Adaption (advantage against saving throws made to resist exhaustion from environmental conditions).

Spiriah
2015-08-15, 09:32 PM
Well, the binder's about to get a whole lot more playtesting!
I'm playing a Binder (Level 7) in the campaign of a friend of mine.

So to anyone who feels like writing more level 4 (or below)vestiges, that would be appreciated!
I'll let you know how things go, and HOPEFULLY won't die.

Prince Zahn
2015-08-16, 04:07 AM
Well, the binder's about to get a whole lot more playtesting!
I'm playing a Binder (Level 7) in the campaign of a friend of mine.

So to anyone who feels like writing more level 4 (or below)vestiges, that would be appreciated!
I'll let you know how things go, and HOPEFULLY won't die.Hooray!!!!:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:
Please make sure to take notes as necessary and fill us with the details of your sessions (and your character, too, if you can) :3
I wish my group was as into 5e as much as I was. I would play the best binder I can. Though I'm finally playing a 3.5 one in a PbP ^_^

I'm a little iffy on this for a couple of reasons. Firstly, you're turning the signs of a vestige into mechanical benefit, but the vestiges themselves haven't been balanced for having a diverse spread of sign locations. There could be a huge bias toward the head or the hands, for example, and that will make one unnatural weapon choice more powerful than the others.
Secondly, 1d8 for natural attacks at 3rd level might be a little powerful. It's basically longsword damage, and it can be argued that it's an unarmed strike, gaining a host of benefits from monk stuff. I would adapt the Alter Self spell's Natural Weapons text here for wording and balance. Hopefully, doing that will help the brevity of the feature a little.Valid points all across. Making changes. I'm going to try powering it with Charisma, and/or if the binder already has that sort of attack. Unless someone has a better idea.


There's some good stuff here, but I would break the abilities up a little bit and give the benefits constantly. For example, choose from Aquatic Adaption (as per the Alter Self spell), Camouflage, or Extremophile Adaption (advantage against saving throws made to resist exhaustion from environmental conditions).
Thanks! Agreed on this. It saves me the headache and fits most adventures better.

There's two more abilites to make - warped form and unworldly evolution. Their order is TBD at this time. WF would mean abilities attained from physical body structure mutation(i.e. turning Quadruped/Serpentine/Amorphous perhaps; with payed homage to the PF Eidolon), whereas UE would give. one of three cool features which don't really fit into any of the the above. The goal is that the warped fate binder should be balanced and fun option to play, yet have the potential to make the binder full of that stuff nightmares are made of. :smalltongue:
for those following since the previous thread, this was also part of what I was thinking to do at an earlier phase when Anaximander and I discussed subclass options.
The end result should be a sort of incorporation of what I know of Anaxi's Warped Binder and my "cult of the Duke" (somewhere around page 3 or 4 in the old thread I think? if you feel like reading mine and the creator's original ideas. It should be there someplace.)

Spiriah
2015-08-16, 10:44 AM
And here's Ronove, post-revision and hopefully ready for playtesting. I think this is pretty much complete, but if anyone has any suggestions, fire away!

@Prince Zahn: I think I got everything we discussed in here? Far Hand works differently, Magic Attacks changed to make more sense, Feather Fall tweaked. Anything else?
RONOVE
The Iron Maiden
1st Level Vestige
Bind DC: 14

Special Requirement: Ronoveís seal must be drawn in the soil under the sky.

Legend: In life, Ronove was a charismatic guru who taught that enlightenment comes from denialófirst of the needs of the flesh, then of the perceived limits of reality, and lastly of the rules of reality. Her frequent demonstrations of power served to illustrate the validity of her ideas to others. She leapt from cliffs without harm, lifted boulders with her thoughts, and lived for months without eating or drinking. Although Ronove gathered many followers, not one of her disciples could manage her great feats. Some began to question her methods.

To prove the veracity of her teachings, Ronove entombed herself underground in an iron coffin, telling her students to dig her up only when they received a sign from her. However, years passed without a sign, and her followers dwindled, leaving only one. Disillusioned, he dug up the coffin. Finding it empty, he told the other former disciples of what had happened, but none believed him, and Ronove and her nameless follower faded into obscurity.

Sign: Your face settles into a frown if you succeeded on your binding check, or a smile if you failed.

Manifestation: The ground quakes, and a rusted iron sarcophagus erupts from the earth within her seal, shedding dirt and flakes of rust as it grates upward. The metal visage of a human woman is discernible on the lid. The metal bindings holding the lid closed burst in clouds of corroded metal, and the sarcophagus creaks open, releasing a tumble of human bones and noisome black liquid. Ronove does not speak to her summoner, but the visage on the lid smiles or frowns during the pact-making process.

Abilities:

Magic Attacks: Your unarmed strikes count as magic weapons for purposes of overcoming resistance or immunity to weapon damage.

Far Hand: You can manipulate distant objects using invisible force. As an action, you can summon an invisible force, which functions similarly to Mage Hand, but with the following differences:
- The hand's maximum carry weight is equal to 10 pounds per Binder level you possess.
- You can command the hand as a bonus action rather than an action, except when using it to manipulate or use an object in a way that would take you an action to do so.
- You still cannot move creatures, but can instead push them with the force in the round you summon it, or as an action in a subsequent round. This deals 1d6 Force damage, and the target must make a Strength save against your Binder save DC. If it fails, you push it 10 feet in a direction you choose. Afterwards, the force dissipates, and you must use an action to summon it again. At 7th level, you deal 2d6 Force damage, and also knock the creature prone if it fails its save. At 14th level, this ability further improves, dealing 3d6 Force damage and allowing you to cast Telekinesis once per short rest.

Feather Fall: You can cast Feather Fall at will.

Ronoveís Fists: You can use Dexterity instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls of your unarmed strikes, and you can deal Martial Arts damage with your unarmed strikes as though you were a Monk of your Binder level.

Sprint: You gain +10ft to your base speed.

Ronoveís Endurance: While bound to Ronove, you only need to eat, drink, and sleep one-third as often as normal.
You also treat your level of exhaustion as being one less than it actually is, and thus suffer no penalties until you have received two levels of exhaustion.



Influence:



Ideal:
Despite what anyone says, you feel the need to prove your worth.


Personality Trait:
You cannot eat or drink (including potions) while you remain bound to Ronove.

Prince Zahn
2015-08-18, 08:15 AM
@Ronove. The linear scaling doesn't feel very 5e (#far hand), but it's easy to remember and does not feel wonky at a glance. my only nitpick is actually that the drive to prove your self worth a la influence might be more suited as an ideal, if you could format it like one that would be perfect. I'll update the Vestige codex soon, probably today.:smallsmile:

Spiriah
2015-08-20, 12:28 AM
@Ronove. The linear scaling doesn't feel very 5e (#far hand), but it's easy to remember and does not feel wonky at a glance. my only nitpick is actually that the drive to prove your self worth a la influence might be more suited as an ideal, if you could format it like one that would be perfect. I'll update the Vestige codex soon, probably today.:smallsmile:
Yeah, I'm not entirely a fan of the level-scaling, but it seems the simplest way to do it. I was considering giving it a Str score equal to your Cha score, but then you'd have to calculate encumbrance and that just felt unwieldy. I could have it scale like a cantrip scales in damage, but I'm not sure that would be a great solution.

Anyway, played in the first real session my character (Half-Elf Binder 7) was in yesterday. The party was going into a city to investigate a planar disturbance caused by these sort of devices that they've been trying to deal with for a while. We decided we could use another melee combatant, so I bound Paimon and Dahlver-Nar and equipped a rapier. Walked around in the city for a bit, talked to a guard who seemed reluctant to reveal any information, found we needed to go to the city archives to find a way underground to the disturbance. After getting there, a bunch of thugs got into a fight with some guards outside, and we joined in to help the outnumbered members of the city watch.

In terms of combat, the Dahlver-Nar+Paimon combo is fairly effective - I Shield Self-ed a guy right off the bat, then
went into Paimon's Dance of Death. Haste is very useful, with three attacks per round, usually from flanking, not to mention the AC buff. We also came up with what we call the "murder by proxy" strategy, where I Shield Self on someone, then have the rest of the party beat the tar out of me until I hit 0 HP, then have the cleric heal me back up. We met this segment's main antagonist, or so we believe, who happens to be a half-dragon troll, and fought an iron golem he threw at us. Then it was late, so we called it there after the party found an inn.

A couple issues were noticed: First, the lack of vestiges kinda limits one's options. This is somewhat unavoidable at this stage, and will hopefully be remedied with time. Second, a lot of vestiges have no bind DCs, so we had to guesstimate them. Luckily I pretty much blew the bind checks out of the water, so we didn't have to worry about that too much. But yeah, if anyone's making a vestige, giving it a DC would be appreciated!

Prince Zahn
2015-08-20, 02:50 AM
Yeah, I'm not entirely a fan of the level-scaling, but it seems the simplest way to do it. I was considering giving it a Str score equal to your Cha score, but then you'd have to calculate encumbrance and that just felt unwieldy. I could have it scale like a cantrip scales in damage, but I'm not sure that would be a great solution. based on previous experiences when we tackled scaling, I find that saying "at Xth level, Y happens" every 6-7 levels as needed is the smoothest solution we have. It gives us better control of what we can do and when.


Anyway, played in the first real session my character (Half-Elf Binder 7) was in yesterday. The party was going into a city to investigate a planar disturbance caused by these sort of devices that they've been trying to deal with for a while. We decided we could use another melee combatant, so I bound Paimon and Dahlver-Nar and equipped a rapier. I can honestly say I did not think about this combination. Very interesting choices. :smallredface:


[...]In terms of combat, the Dahlver-Nar+Paimon combo is fairly effective - I Shield Self-ed a guy right off the bat, then
went into Paimon's Dance of Death. Haste is very useful, with three attacks per round, usually from flanking, not to mention the AC buff. We also came up with what we call the "murder by proxy" strategy, where I Shield Self on someone, then have the rest of the party beat the tar out of me until I hit 0 HP, then have the cleric heal me back up. sounds like a very risky tactic, this DBP, borderline cheesy, even. But between resources spent on a single enemy and the fact that the enemies' turns were not factored in, it seems like further investigation might be necessary.

What really gets my red light blinking is this: you got three attacks in this combat. How did your other martial character (if you have one) fare in comparison? Would you say either the extra attack or Paimon's dance of death offer too much at this level?


We met this segment's main antagonist, or so we believe, who happens to be a half-dragon troll, and fought an iron golem he threw at us. Then it was late, so we called it there after the party found an inn. how did that battle go? How fair do you think the vestiges you worked with were on a scale of 1 to 10, where 1 is underpowered and 10 is highway munchkinry? Did you enjoy your first session with the binder, in terms of mechanics?


A couple issues were noticed: First, the lack of vestiges kinda limits one's options. This is somewhat unavoidable at this stage, and will hopefully be remedied with time. Second, a lot of vestiges have no bind DCs, so we had to guesstimate them. Luckily I pretty much blew the bind checks out of the water, so we didn't have to worry about that too much. But yeah, if anyone's making a vestige, giving it a DC would be appreciated!
we're always working on more vestiges, the ideal goal is to have 4 or 5 vestiges to choose from each given vestige level.
Vestige DCs noted. We'll have to remember to add binding DCs to each vestige, or improvise a chart on other vestiges. That will likely be in the Vestige Codex eventually.
Do you have any further commentary or notes to add on the class at this point?

Thanks for playtesting the binder for us:smallsmile: guys. It makes this whole project worthwhile!

Spiriah
2015-08-20, 11:18 AM
based on previous experiences when we tackled scaling, I find that saying "at Xth level, Y happens" every 6-7 levels as needed is the smoothest solution we have. It gives us better control of what we can do and when.Yeah, but then it'd either barely improve over the whole span of the class or spike up at a few levels with no improvement in between. I might go back and edit it if I think of something that works.


I can honestly say I did not think about this combination. Very interesting choices. :smallredface:It wasn't an immediately obvious choice, but I think it worked fairly well. I was considering using Andras in place of Dahlver-Nar, and I might do that later. I love how the Binder makes you think about how you can best combine your abilities more than any other class.:smallsmile:


sounds like a very risky tactic, this DBP, borderline cheesy, even. But between resources spent on a single enemy and the fact that the enemies' turns were not factored in, it seems like further investigation might be necessary.We weren't entirely serious, but it would also take a lot of work to execute, especially mid-combat. I'll be sure to mention if it actually sees play.


What really gets my red light blinking is this: you got three attacks in this combat. How did your other martial character (if you have one) fare in comparison? Would you say either the extra attack or Paimon's dance of death offer too much at this level?We have two other frontline melee characters, an Ancients paladin and a champion fighter. I was fairly in-line with the Paladin's damage, and the fighter(though partially due to a bunch of crits, including one that dealt upwards of 50 damage in a single swing) significantly outdamaged me. I think the perform checks balance out the Dance, as I had to spend a couple luck points to keep it going in that fight.


how did that battle go? How fair do you think the vestiges you worked with were on a scale of 1 to 10, where 1 is underpowered and 10 is highway munchkinry? Did you enjoy your first session with the binder, in terms of mechanics?Not sure if I can rate the vestiges, especially not having used all their abilities, but nothing seemed too unbalanced, on either end of the scale. Enjoyed playing the binder thus far, and am looking forward to playing more of it.



we're always working on more vestiges, the ideal goal is to have 4 or 5 vestiges to choose from each given vestige level.
Vestige DCs noted. We'll have to remember to add binding DCs to each vestige, or improvise a chart on other vestiges. That will likely be in the Vestige Codex eventually.
Do you have any further commentary or notes to add on the class at this point?

Thanks for playtesting the binder for us:smallsmile: guys. It makes this whole project worthwhile!
1. Yup, I'm sure the lack of vestiges will be remedied as we expand the class further. Currently smoothing out the details on Otiax.
2. I had the idea that we could bump up vestige DCs a bit, but also add prof bonus to bind checks, so that we can have the upper-level vestige DCs get a bit higher without pushing them out of pactable numbers.
3. I have another session tonight at 7:30ish, so if anyone has level 4 or lower vestiges they want tested, I can potentially make that happen.

Scarce
2015-08-20, 10:03 PM
Totally 6th level now.

Geryon
The Deposed Lord
6th Level Vestige
Sign: Two extra pairs of devilish eyes with green lids and yellow, catlike irises open on your head. Located at the level of your own eyes and equidistant from them, these bloodshot orbs grant you the ability to see all around yourself. Your own eyes take on the same appearance as the new ones.

Devil's Sight
You have superior vision in dark and dim conditions. You can see in dim light within 60 feet of you as if it was bright light, and in darkness as if it were dim light. You can't discern color in darkness, only shades of grey. Magical darkness doesn't impede your vision.

Acidic Gaze
Select 1 creature you can see within 30 feet to make a Constitution saving throw. On a failed save, the creature takes 3d6 acid damage and takes an additional 3d4 damage at the beginning of its turn.
This abilityís damage increases when you reach 17th level (4d8 / 4d4).

Swift Flight
As a bonus action, you can cast the spell fly. After using this ability, you must complete a short or long rest before using it again.

Terrifying Glare
As an action, each creature you choose that you can see within 30 feet must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, the creature is magically frightened for 1 minute. After using this ability, you must complete a short or long rest before using it again.

Eyebite
You can cast the spell eyebite. After using this ability, you must complete a long rest before using it again.

PACT INFORMATION:
Most scholars of the dark arts know of Geryon. As one of the legendary Lords of the Nine, he ruled Stygia, the frozen fifth layer of Hell. During a great upheaval known as the Reckoning, Geryon secretly supported the greatest of the arch devils, Asmodeus, against his rivals. When the armies of the opposing lords met to decide who would take Asmodeusís power, Geryon blew his horn. At his signal, the armies turned against their leaders, the usurpers were thrown down, and Asmodeus reestablished his right to rule all Baator. Knowing he had taught the usurpers a lesson they would not soon forget, Asmodeus returned them to power. Rather than reward Geryon, however, he inexplicably gave his lone supporterís power and position to another.

Geryonís fate after losing his position is unclear, but some binder scholars maintain that Asmodeus held one more betrayal in store for him. The story goes that Geryon, bewildered and stunned, lost all hope for the future. He began to question the purpose of his actions and, in a moment of weakness, even the point of his own existence. It was then that Asmodeus struck. The ruler of the Nine Hells had always hungered for the souls of those who had lost their faith, and Geryonís powerful soul made a fine meal.

Scarce
2015-08-20, 10:41 PM
I'm wondering if it might simply be better to have a DC for each vestige level, rather than one for each individual vestige. I really want the final class to feel really easy to pick up and play, so I've been thinking a lot about how many of the elements from the 3.5 Binder entries we really need to include. Bonding DCs can probably be simplified, and I think we can scrap Manifestations altogether. I love the flavor they tend to provide, but it's a lot of text for no gameplay.

In fact, it would be useful to have a table with the vestige's level and a short description for each vestige that allows a player to sample the vestiges at a glance, to get a feel for each vestige without having to read more than a sentence. For example:



Amon, a fallen deity of light, grants you his horns and his fiery breath.
Dahlver-Nar, formerly a binder himself, offers protections against madness and injury alike.
Geryon was once a lord of the Nine Hells and now grants you his devilish eyes and the ability to fly temporarily.


Also, if Dahvler-Nar's Shield Self seems is a little too cheese-able, (which I don't think I ever read closely -- it seems really powerful) allow me to suggest:

Shield Self
As a reaction when you take damage, you can gain resistance to the damage and can select 1 creature within 30 feet to make a Charisma saving throw. On a failed save, the creature takes half the damage inflicted. After using this ability, you must finish a short or long rest before using it again.

Prince Zahn
2015-08-21, 05:56 AM
Ooh! Geryon! Let's see what we have here:


Geryon
The Deposed Lord
2nd Level Vestige?? The transition from 5th level to 2nd is no easy task, just saying.

Sign: Two extra pairs of devilish eyes with green lids and yellow, catlike irises open on your head. Located at the level of your own eyes and equidistant from them, these bloodshot orbs grant you the ability to see all around yourself. Your own eyes take on the same appearance as the new ones.

All Around Vision
You add double your proficiency bonus on Perception checks involving sight.I don't know if I mentioned this before, but I don't like the method of doubling your proficiency bonus on a check, doubly so if you do not have the skill in question. It's both a free proficiency and expertise in one fell swoop, which as I mentioned in the Original post, I am against handing out casually via vestiges. how about working with surprise for reference? how about Instead of that:

ALL AROUND VISION
Whenever you would normally begin combat surprised, you can roll a DC 15 Wisdom(Perception) check. if you succeed, you are not surprised and can act as normal.
:smallsmile:


Devil's Sight
You have superior vision in dark and dim conditions. You can see in dim light within 60 feet of you as if it was bright light, and in darkness as if it were dim light. You can't discern color in darkness, only shades of grey. Magical darkness doesn't impede your darkvision. that last word should be changed, as not every binder bound to Geryon will have Darkvision. alternatively, seeing in magical Darknrss it's only for people who have darkvision, in which case it would make a good combo early on with Amon if you don't have it via race.:smallsmile:


Acidic Gaze
Select 1 creature you can see within 30 feet to make a Constitution saving throw. On a failed save, the creature takes 1d6 acid damage.
This abilityís damage increases by 1d6 when you reach 5th level (2d6), 11th level (3d6), and 17th level (4d6).FTFY.
This feature is a little too weak, even by cantrip standards. I propose taking any of these 3 actions:

Increase the damage to d8s, and Add an extra ability, i.e. damage the next round or something else.
make this an area effect
raise the damage die significantly, to either d10s or d12s. it's only fair since it's not save for half.



Swift Flight
As a bonus action, you can gain a fly speed equal to your movement speed for 1 round. After using this ability, you must complete a short or long rest before using it again. This is one of those features that can also improve as you go up in levels, otherwise it'll turn out to be pointless really fast (I'm not sure that it's not underpowered already, maybe make it last for 1d4 rounds initially?) think about how you can improve this flight to make it a considerable choice for as long as possible.


Terrifying Glare
Select 1 creature you can see within 30 feet to make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, the creature is magically frightened for 1 minute. The creature can repeat the saving throw at the end of each of its turns, ending the effect on itself on a success. After using this ability, you must complete a long rest before using it again.Does the frightened condition usually need targets to roll a save each round? either way I don't think it's worth a long rest.


I'm wondering if it might simply be better to have a DC for each vestige level, rather than one for each individual vestige. I really want the final class to feel really easy to pick up and play, so I've been thinking a lot about how many of the elements from the 3.5 Binder entries we really need to include. Binding DCs can probably be simplified, I second this. streamlined DCs for any given Vestige level sounds certainly appropriate. I'll get to work on that soon and add it to the Vestige Codex - stay tuned!


and I think we can scrap Manifestations altogether. I love the flavor they tend to provide, but it's a lot of text for no gameplay. I disagree about ditching Manifestations, I do agree on simplifying the process. The Binder's biggest feature is his rich fluff, and I'm not eager to shake it off.


In fact, it would be useful to have a table with the vestige's level and a short description for each vestige that allows a player to sample the vestiges at a glance, to get a feel for each vestige without having to read more than a sentence. For example:



Amon, a fallen deity of light, grants you his horns and his fiery breath.
Dahlver-Nar, formerly a binder himself, offers protections against madness and injury alike.
Geryon was once a lord of the Nine Hells and now grants you his devilish eyes and the ability to fly temporarily. No problem, I can add a line's description in the vestige Codex. that'll mean more time between updates thought:smalltongue:



Also, if Dahvler-Nar's Shield Self seems is a little too cheese-able, (which I don't think I ever read closely -- it seems really powerful) allow me to suggest:

Shield Self
As a reaction when you take damage, you can gain resistance to the damage and can select 1 creature within 30 feet to make a Charisma saving throw. On a failed save, the creature takes half the damage inflicted. After using this ability, you must finish a short or long rest before using it again. so you take 1/2 damage and the enemy recieves 1/4. sounds fair I think. what do the rest of you think?

ALSO!
I'm considering removing the extra attack at level, and reserving a something that to a vestige like Eligor (level 11-13th or something, which might have a similar vein to what paimon has. that way, if you want 3 attacks per round, you have to bind both Paimon and Eligor. C'est tout. your thoughts?

Prince Zahn
2015-08-21, 06:18 PM
PEACH:

KARSUS
The Hubris In The Blood
4th Level vestige:
DC: 15
Seal:
Sign: When wounded, you bleed a lot more than normal. This by no means has any effect on your hit points.
Manifestation:

PROFICIENCIES
None.

MAGE MIND
For as long as you remain bound to Karsus, You can instantly recognize a vestige's seal if you can see it, as well as either it's name or it's title (The DM decides which one) and determine if it is a genuine seal or a fake one (no check is required). You must still know both the vestige's name and title, and be able to bind a vestige of the appropriate level in order to summon it.

In addition, you have advantage on all Arcana checks made to glean new information on a vestige or on an active spell you are aware of.

GIFT OF KARSUS:
While you are bound to Karsus, attuning yourself to a magic item takes only 10 minutes of the appropriate activity. You must still meet other prerequisites the item may have to attune the magic item.

MAGIC EYES
You know the spell Detect Magic and can cast it as a ritual.

BASIC ARCANA
You know the Prestidigitation Spell and can cast it at-will.

NULL MAGIC
As an action, you can end any spells active on a creature, object, or magical effect you can see within 120 feet as though you had cast Dispel Magic on it. You can dispel in this fashion twice, and regain any expended uses of Null Magic whenever you complete a long rest. Starting at 12th level, you can end any spells of 5th level or lower without* requiring an ability check can use this one additional time between long rests. Starting at 19th level, you gain a fourth use* of this feature, and you can recover any expended uses upon competing a short or long rest.

UNWEAVING HAND
You can sever the attunement between a creature and a magic item with a touch. To do so, you must spend your action to touch a magic item that requires attunement, or make a spell attack against the creature holding or wearing the item, (if applicable). If the attack succeeds, the attunement between the targeted magic item and any creatures within 100 feet immediately ends. Once you have ended a magic item's attunement in this fashion, you can not do so again until you have completed a long rest.

PACT INFORMATION:
Binder Lore remembers Karsus as a mortal spellcaster, one of the strongest who ever lived. One day, he challenged a goddess of magic for her dominion. And forsooth he won her divinity. His body, however, could not bear wielding the goddess's unfathomable power. Soon afterwards he burned out and perished. Now a divine soul, he was not accepted into any afterlife, doomed to an eternal existence in the void.

Karsus is always eager to help those who seek to discover the ancient and the forgotten, if he is convinced there is sufficient learning to be experienced on a given day, your ability check to bind with Karsus is made with advantage. Likewise, Karsus demands to feel needed and necessary, and any suspicions he might have that your pact with him lacks urgency or importance can impose disadvantage on your check to bind him.

If you make a poor pact with Karsus, he influences your personality in one of the following ways:


Influence
Description


Personality Trait
I would rather lie or scowl at people than openly reason with them.


Flaw
my business and I are always the prime importance.

The_Doctor
2015-08-22, 09:50 AM
Good news! More playtesting is incoming! I'm playing in a new campaign, and the DM has given permission for me to use this class. I'll let you know how it turns out.

Prince Zahn
2015-08-22, 10:16 AM
DOCTOR! It's been forever! :smallbiggrin::smallsmile::smalltongue::smallconfu sed: what have you been up to?!


what level are you playing?
if you're level 3+, which subclass will you take? Which interests you the most?
do you know about the rest of the party? bring notes!
please give us details of your character and of your sessions as they go. Any and all input is helpful!


Questions 2 applies to Spiriah as well, my apologies for forgetting to ask that before.:smallredface:

Scarce
2015-08-23, 04:35 PM
@Karsus: This one I like. Not too complicated and nothing too powerful. (Though I want to say it might be weak for 4th level compared to other vestiges, I think the more prudent thing to do would be too get vestiges of levels 1-3 a little weaker.)

@Extra Attack: I totally agree with your assessment here, though it leads me to a much larger trend I've noticed with many of the vestiges: there seem to be only a few different types of vestiges, which I'll refer to as "Combat" vestiges, "Defense" vestiges, and "Spellcaster" vestiges and we should approach the design of these differently. Furthermore, we should try to add synergy to these vestige groups, even if the groups aren't stated outright.

We should try to have only one Combat and Defense vestige at each level. Some cases, like Leraje and Ipos being on the same level, are fine since they focus on very different aspects.

Combat Vestiges

Combat vestiges include Ronove, Leraje, Paimon, Andras, Eligor, and Marchosias, I'll define Combat vestiges as any vestige that has at least two abilities that use or improve a melee attack (there might be a lot more on this list when it comes down to it.)

Right now, we're well on track with this group. I'll add some thoughts on how to add synergy in this group after listing their current abilities.

1st level - Ronove - Magic attacks, Monk Martial Arts damage, increased movement speed, resistance to exhaustion
There might be too many features here and we should consider whether we should remove some of these. I would recommend scaling the unarmed attacks as a monk of half level, removing magical unarmed attacks, but allowing two unarmed attacks each round. This is also a good class to offer proficiency in a few select monk weapons.

2nd Level - Leraje - Ignore bad weather for arrows, hide in wild, extra damage on arrows or target second enemy.
I really don't love this one. I think it's balanced, but the combat features are just obtuse. I really want this one to be simple and digestible. Precise Shot can just be: Your arrows always ignore unfavorable conditions due to weather while you can see your target. Maybe also just grant additional damage to attacks with bows instead of the very complex Leraje's Arrow. Since Leraje is the only vestige (I think) that focuses on this type of combat, it's fine if it's a little powerful on its own. Or instead, make Leraje's Arrow just Improved Critical with only bows.

2nd Level - Ipos - 1d6 natural attack, additional damage with 2 hits
This one and Ronove both have much the same abilities: unarmed attacks which closely scale to the monk class which are magic weapons. I might change the way the claws work to make this more unique.

3rd Level - Paimon - blade ward cantrip, weapon as spellcasting focus, 2 maneuvers - Sweeping Attack and Lunging attack, haste
I think Haste and maneuvers together might make this too powerful. On one hand, I like both features, but they're pretty powerful compared to other vestiges of this level.

4th Level - Andras - find steed, improved critical, disadvantage for additional damage
This might be a good candidate for martial maneuvers, like Paimon. I'd have to figure out which feature to trade out for it. Also, I'll change Improved Critical to only effect melee weapon attacks. Another thought: Andras might be the right candidate for extra attack, since it seems like Eligor would work better with a damage buff to individual melee attacks.


5th level - Eligor - extra strength, additional damage on melee weapon attacks


Eligor's Skill
You are proficient with medium armor. Also, instead of rolling checks for the Handle Animal skill, you can use 10 + your skill modifier as the result.

Chromatic Strike
You gain the ability to infuse your weapon strikes with draconic energy. Once on each of your turns when you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack, you can cause the attack to deal an extra 1d8 acid, cold, lightning, or fire damage to the target.

Eligor's Strength
Your Strength increases by 2, to a maximum of 20.

Let me know what you think (sorry if the post was a little rambly)! I'll be composing other posts examining the power of the Defense Vestiges and Spellcaster Vestiges.

Scarce
2015-08-23, 09:00 PM
Also, I've done some minor editing on my Vestiges.

@Yellow King: Locked in at 5th level. (Also, I'm petitioning the Yellow King and Bigger be moved to the main vestige list)

@Haures: Locked in at 4th level.

@Geryon: I made a few edits, to align with Prince Zahn's review. Here's a quick variant, lemme know what you think:
If I wanted to make this a 6th level vestige, I would change Swift Flight to simply cast fly as a bonus action, change terrifying glare to target all creatures in a 30 foot cone and remove the ability to end early, and start Acidic Gaze with it's current progression at a higher level. Also, I would add Eyebite 1/long rest.

I think these three actually make a solid backbone for the levels 4-6 Spellcasting Vestiges.

The_Doctor
2015-08-24, 01:16 PM
DOCTOR! It's been forever! :smallbiggrin::smallsmile::smalltongue::smallconfu sed: what have you been up to?! Sorry. Been busy.


what level are you playing? Its a level 1 campaign.
if you're level 3+, which subclass will you take? Which interests you the most? See number one. When I get there, I'll let you know.
do you know about the rest of the party? bring notes!I'm only sure of one person: a human ranger. More info will come when I actually sit down with them.
please give us details of your character and of your sessions as they go. Any and all input is helpful! Sure thing, Zahn.


@Scarce: Don't have time to look at them now, but from your post, good job! All we need now are 8th level vestiges...

The_Doctor
2015-08-24, 01:21 PM
Sorry for double post, but I noticed something.

We're cranking out new Vestiges like crazy, and that's all fine and good. But we should focus more of our time and energy into marking more and more vestiges as (COMP). If we have 5 complete vestiges, and 50 zillion incomplete ones, that's not going to help anyone.

Prince Zahn
2015-08-24, 04:03 PM
Lots of food for thought at once, Scarce. I approve of this bulk input highly, thank you! :smalleek::smallsmile:

Follow-up:
I'm really glad you like Karsus! I did build him with more focus on interaction and exploration in mind, and I wanted to avoid anything that buffs up magic items. His signature ability - to break attunement, is also hard to judge balance since I personally haven't a clue if this is a fair ability or not, or if this is a feature for a different level. I figure it'll be awesome throughout all levels to end attunement.
Which of these categories would you file a vestige like Naberius under?:smallconfused: Andromalius? Buer? :smallconfused: vestiges that though some of their abilities include spellcasting, that is hardly their intended role.
I do agree on the prospect of limiting combat and defensive vestige options per level, even if we have to reiterate some vestiges to do so. While we're on topic, I'd like to propose a change of focus for 4th level vestiges, and lean those . heavier on interaction and exploration rather than combat. It appears to me that other Classes are similar in that respect when they reach 6th or 7th level.

Speaking in the name of my own vestiges, I understand your point about simplifying Leraje (in fact, I wish I would have known this when I asked for feedback on her, But better late than never). I will consider this advice to make Leraje one of those vestiges for simpler play, as we should certainly consider making some of those!
As for Paimon, I'd like to see what that would be like if I removed the extra attack class feature, and made Dance of death harder to sustain. It's not going to happen tonight, but expect a revision.
On Eligor - I was frankly a little hopeful that keeping him at level 7 or 8 would make me more comfortable at giving him extra attack (or extra attack with a catch) if we could get Paimon straightened out. I reckon that having 3 attacks is more reasonable when you have extra rules to follow, though.

No objections on things you said about Ipos and Andras, though I would like to suggest replacing Find Steed with Phantom Steed a few times per short rest. Much easier to handle I think, and without the controversy over keeping the steed, which I hope will never have to come up in a game session.

I'd like some good reasons as to why you think The King in Yellow and Bigger should be moved to the main vestiges.
From my point of things, the intent was to separate between conversions and fan-vestiges. My priorities with this project to convert what I can and review existing vestiges, and while there should be nothing wrong with playing with misc. Vestiges, and I will review and PEACH any binder vestiges that are posted here equally (esp. When provided proper context) it's hard to promise they will be welcomed in every game (I, for one, am less enamoured by the King in Yellow and Bigger, as I have not read their books and likely won't get to it in the nearby future, but anyone who can appreciate the references should not hesitate to take and try what he likes.)

If a day comes and I adapt any of my fictional vestiges to 5e, I will file them under misc. vestiges like all the others. You have no idea how much I want to make a vestige out of Vamber (my avatar), but as I said, it's really not a priority for me until we have enough "core" vestiges, until the Chassis proves functional, I'll have 3 operational and functioning subclasses, some additional campaign support (feats, magic items, monsters, player/GM advice, fill out all the vestige lore I'm missing, etc.)

If a 5e player tells his want to make a Binder, I'd want them to look at ours first - complete, reliable, comprehensive.
or heck - if WotC ever decide to get an official 5e Binder, it would be awesome if they looked up our 5e Binder for inspiration of research alongside the old tome of magic!

Bottom line: I love it when you guys bring vestiges to the table, even those I don't recognize, but it would take some compelling reasons for me to merge "fan" vestiges with "core" ones.

Prince Zahn
2015-08-24, 04:06 PM
I also second the motion of perfecting what we have, even if it slows down vestige production. This is also what I hope playtesting will help with - the input we'll get from playtesting should confirm or disprove any balance we think exists with our vestiges, and we work our way from there.:smallcool:

Scarce
2015-08-24, 11:28 PM
I agree that we need more complete vestiges, but I really don't think about individual vestiges as being done, certainly not yet anyway. My thinking has been that the vestiges need to stand up individually, but also as a whole from a top-down perspective, so as to allow for easier addition of new vestiges and so that we can have a more complete vestige system.

Hopefully, with the Zahn's original template for most vestiges (1 spell of the vestige's level per long, 1 spell of half the vestige's level per short, and a handful of at wills) most vestiges will be easy to write and balance, and won't step on the toes of each other. However, those that focus on combat need to be balanced with respect to each other, since Combat Vestiges don't clearly fit this template most of the time. My thinking is that these types of vestiges won't be done until they're all complete as a system, and I can only hope that it doesn't hold up playtesting the material we have so far.

I'll take a closer look at Defense oriented vestiges soon, and hopefully try to plot out which Combat Vestiges should get what abilities as we get up to 9th level. But, alas, it's a busy week; we'll see what actually gets done.

Prince Zahn
2015-08-25, 01:53 AM
Hopefully, with the Zahn's original template for most vestiges (1 spell of the vestige's level per long, 1 spell of half the vestige's level per short, and a handful of at wills) most vestiges will be easy to write and balance, and won't step on the toes of each other.
I resent that Description: I wrote "features/abilities" all the way through the template, by no means is anybody limited to granting any spells to a vestige. Any at-wills could be substituted for passive ones with little issue. The increasing use of spells in vestiges stems from us and our search for equivalents for supernatural abilities.
Also - it's a little broader than that - " two rest-powered features", "one situational feature for versatility", "one decorative/symbolic feature for fluff/advantage on very specific checks"... If you think a vestige should not have spells, don't give him any. C'est tout.


However, those that focus on combat need to be balanced with respect to each other, since Combat Vestiges don't clearly fit this template most of the time. My thinking is that these types of vestiges won't be done until they're all complete as a system, and I can only hope that it doesn't hold up playtesting the material we have so far. they... Don't fit? *eyetwitch*:smalleek:

:smalltongue: Well, I did say early on that my template won't be the last one we use. Any volunteers to come up with a more appropriate "combat vestige template"? Feel free to team up if it helps. I Don't think I can help as much since I don't yet see anything inherently wrong with my own template. Nevertheless I don't disqualify the constructive proposals


I'll take a closer look at Defense oriented vestiges soon, and hopefully try to plot out which Combat Vestiges should get what abilities as we get up to 9th level. But, alas, it's a busy week; we'll see what actually gets done.
I'm still unsure that ALL of the vestiges would snugly fit into these three templates. I rather think that for vestiges like Paimon and Leraje, among others. The template is not as real an issue as the abilities we fit into them, though I do agree with your other notes about keeping combat and defensive vestiges under a tight leash. If there's anywhere that the binder is most likely to come tumbling down on us in terms of balance, it's in combat.

Once again, Scarce, thank you for all of this insight. I can see you have given it much thought.:smallbiggrin:

Prince Zahn
2015-08-25, 09:23 AM
I would also like to remind everyone that "(COMP)" was my term (for the lack of a better term-) for "This vestige is ready for playtesting" to separate them from all the incomplete drafts. I'll probably replace them with a different label... any suggestions?

The_Doctor
2015-08-25, 09:32 AM
What about PTA (PlayTestAble)?

Prince Zahn
2015-08-25, 09:46 AM
What about PTA (PlayTestAble)?

It's a Thought:smallsmile: maybe I could put Roman numerals next to it to indicate revision waves (For instance, this stage was PTA-I, with you and Spiriah, as well as SAMazing(whom I haven't heard from in a while) practically just starting out your games. I'm guessing what proves to work will move to PTA-II.

It would be great if you guys could field test as many vestiges (and combinations, for mid-level play) as you can. The more issues we spot, the more we can act upon it and make things that compliment each other fairly.

Scarce
2015-08-25, 09:57 AM
What about PTA (PlayTestAble)?

We could use Alpha (in progress), Beta (finished, but not exhaustively tested, and Release (finalized.)

The_Doctor
2015-08-25, 10:52 AM
@Scarce: How about (DEV) in DEVelopment, (AL), for Alpha stage, and (REL) for Released?

Prince Zahn
2015-08-26, 10:37 AM
Okay I think this will do for now. Hopefully the playtesting status system is simple enough to understand and work with, and versatile enough to not need a revision for a long time.
I'm removing the Binder's extra attack at 5th level (sorry to all who are now playtesting!) My assessment is that if the Binder needs an extra attack, a vestige will have to provide it for him, though this will be strictly supervised.
Currently I am trying to revisit Paimon and build him without using spells.

@Scarce, if you wanted to provide us with notes on how you would coordinate between combat vestiges, the best time for it is the present. Otherwise, I will be working with my own template.

Scarce
2015-08-27, 03:08 PM
With enough research into what we have so far and what conventions were used in 3.5, I might be able to come up with a half-decent combat template. However, that's just not going to happen this week (it's one of those times that life gets in the way) so, by all means Zahn, you're good to work on a template! I'm looking forward to seeing what you come up with!

Prince Zahn
2015-08-27, 03:26 PM
With enough research into what we have so far and what conventions were used in 3.5, I might be able to come up with a half-decent combat template. However, that's just not going to happen this week (it's one of those times that life gets in the way) so, by all means Zahn, you're good to work on a template! I'm looking forward to seeing what you come up with!

I hope things get better for you soon, Scarce!
I'm probably going to build me a new Paimon with my own template. This one will simply not use magic spells and stuff like that. Worst case scenario, it comes out a busy and we can adapt things to yours later on and see how it goes.:smallsmile:

The_Doctor
2015-08-27, 08:55 PM
A bit of detail about my playtest:

The world is a mageocracy: ruled by wizards, sorcs, and warlocks. I emailed, and he says no, they don't count Binding as a form of arcane magic and thus I am an outlaw. I have two other characters that I know the classes of: a ranger and a druid. Not sure what we're going to be facing yet. Given what we have so far, what vestiges would you reccomend?

We're meeting in a week from tomorrow (the 28th, if you're reading this later), so I'll let you know how it went afterwards.

Scarce
2015-08-28, 01:04 AM
Given what we have so far, what vestiges would you reccomend?

Given you're at first level, you don't have a wealth of options. I would do Naberius if you want to talk your way out of trouble, and Amon or Ronove if you want to punch your way out.

@Geryon: I totally tried the 6th level changes out, and I think I like it more that way. Geryon's 6th level now (Alpha). Plus, Geryon really deserves the higher vestige level anyway (being a former lord of Hell and all.)

@Paimon: If you're looking for ideas, my battledancer subclass (http://middlefingerofvecna.blogspot.com/2015/07/battledancer.html) might be able to provide some inspiration for mechanics.

Prince Zahn
2015-08-28, 03:07 AM
Question: Should the new Paimon offer a second(not third) attack like the previous one did? Or is that too much?

Scarce
2015-08-28, 11:37 AM
Question: Should the new Paimon offer a second(not third) attack like the previous one did? Or is that too much?

Given that you can bind Paimon as early as 3rd level, it's too early for Extra Attack. There's plenty of other options, though.

My 2 cents (just spit balling here) :

Dance of Death
As a bonus action on your turn, you can dance furiously and chaotically, Until the beginning of your next turn, other creatures have disadvantage on opportunity attacks against you.

Whirling Dervish
When you take the Attack action with a slashing weapon on your turn, you can attack up to three creatures that are adjacent to you, making a separate attack roll for each target. After using this ability, you must compete a short or long rest before using it again.

Prince Zahn
2015-08-28, 11:43 AM
Given that you can bind Paimon as early as 3rd level, it's too early for Extra Attack. There's plenty of other options, though.
You get him 5th level, as he is a 3rd level vestige, equivalent in power to when other spellcasters get 3rd level spells.

I'll look into my options, but I'd like more input on the matter before I proceed.

The_Doctor
2015-08-29, 08:20 PM
I know I'm breaking my own advice, but I felt like the opportunity for this Vestige was too obvious to let slide.


DON THOUSAND
Barian God
Don Thousand was once a virtual god on his home planet. Eventually he traveled to the prime material and terrorized humans. There a group of humans, aided by a lone celestial, were able to defeat him. He simply smiled, transferred a great quantity of his powers to one of the humans, and faded out of existence.
9th Level vestige
DC: 25
Sign: One of your eyes turns blue and the other turns red.
Manifestation: Like this: http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20150501031341/yugioh/images/c/cc/Don_thousand_emerges5.png
Granted Abilities:

PROFICIENCIES
You gain no proficiencies from binding Don Thousand.

Numeron Network: You can speak telepathically with creatures within 30 feet of you. They will understand you as if you spoke their native languages, and their response will be automatically translated into common. You can suspend this an action and resume it as an action.

Numeron Calling: You can call forth the power of the mighty Numeron once per long rest. Doing so is an action that gives you and creatures within 30 feet of you advantage on all attacks. This effect lasts until the next time you roll initiative.

Chaos Gate: You can change the power of the mighty Numeron into a new, upgraded form. You can, as an action, while the effect of your Numeron Calling is active, suspend its effects until the end of your next turn. At that time, make a ranged spell attack against all creatures within 30 feet, dealing 6d6 psychic damage if you hit and half if you don't.

Chaos Ritual: When the effect of your Chaos Gate ability triggers, you may choose for the effect of Numeron Calling to be lost. If you do, in the same radius is a zone of antimagic. No spell can be cast within its radius.

Numerronius Numerronia: While your Chaos Ritual effect is active, you may choose to shut it down. If you do, you can, once per round, choose one attack that has been declared, and impose disadvantage on the attack roll or advantage on the saving throw. This effect lasts until the next time you roll initiative.

Prince Zahn
2015-08-30, 01:56 PM
Let's try this, this one really is a dance-powered fighting vestige.
[PEACH.]
PAIMON (http://d15osn4tlmtdxb.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2004/04/paimon-seal.jpg)
The Dancer
3rd Level vestige:
DC: 13
Sign: Your face naturally smiles wider on one side than the other.
Manifestation:

PROFICIENCIES
Weapons: Rapiers, Shortswords

GRACE
While you are wielding a Finesse weapon, You may spring into a masterful dance in a moment's notice that makes you hard to strike. dancing this way requires a DC 15 Charisma (Performance) check as an bonus action, if you succeed, any attack rolls made against you have Disadvantage until the beginning of your next turn. You may roll an additional Charisma (Performance) check each round as a bonus action to sustain the effect. The DC of this Charisma (Performance) check increases by 1 for each time you succeed on it beyond the first. the DC to use Grace returns to normal once you complete a short or long rest.

PAIMON'S SWORDSMANSHIP
Paimon understands the value of magic spells as an art not too distinct from swordplay. at any time when you make a successful Charisma (Performance) check to dance, you can use any finesse weapon you are proficient with in place of a spellcasting focus for any spell or cantrip you can cast for the duration of the dance.

COMBAT SUPERIORITY
When bound to a pact with Paimon, you know maneuvers that are fueled by special dice called superiority Dice.
Maneuvers: you learn the Sweeping Attack and Lunging Attack maneuvers.
Superiority Dice. you gain 3 superiority dice, which are d6s. A superiority die is expended when you use it. You regain all of your expended superiority dice once you finish a short or long rest.
You gain another superiority die at 13th level.
In addition, if you gain the Combat superiority class feature by other means (such as by multiclassing or another vestige) you receive d8s instead (or d10s, if you have the improved combat superiority class feature)

UNEARTHLY BALANCE
You can reroll any natural 1 you roll on a Dexterity (Acrobatics) check or Charisma (Performance) check you make to dance, tumble or whirl. you must use the new die roll result regardless of it's outcome (even if it is another 1).

DANCE OF DEATH
Your prelude of graceful dancing turns to a climactic and brutal display. When you make a Charisma (Performance) check required to sustain your grace feature for an additional round, you may forgo the benefits of Grace for the round. on a success, you can instead reroll any 1s and 2s on your damage dice with finesse weapons until the beginning of your next turn. You must use the new results of the damage dice regardless of their outcome.
you must declare that you use Dance of Death before you roll for your Grace Feature.

VARIANT FEATURE:
WHIRLING DERVISH (Replaces Dance of Death)
When you take the Attack action with a Finesse weapon on your turn, you can attack up to three creatures that are adjacent to you, making a separate attack roll for each target. After using this ability, you must compete a short or long rest before using it again.
(courtesy of Scarce, might need some more thought to adapt it to this version. If this version is worth investing in, PM me and we'll work on it)
PACT INFORMATION
Various legends speak of Paimon as a handsome rake who had affairs with every lady in the court, and defeating their suiters in swordplay. Sooner or later the gentlemen ganged-up on him and cut off his sword arm. Though beat-up and ridiculed he returned with a bejeweled solid gold arm in place of the old one and brought retribution upon them. Retribution, however, led to more vengeance, as the men gathered against him again, cutting off all his limbs and thrusting rapier blades in there place. They threatened him never to return again and left him to die.
During the Queen's birthday ball that year, the gentlemen all gathered with their ladies, quite pleased with their secret act as others wondered if the charming Paimon's absence, when they noticed a fully black-garbed figure dancing among the crowd, and noticing cuts on the carpet where it did so. One of the men forcefully uncovered the man's mask to find a hideous, distorted face of the rotting Paimon, with blood-stained blades where his limbs should be. He spun around rapidly, there was a scream, and Paimon faded to black smoke. Convinced that they saw his spectre, the men followed the sunken board marks to where they left Paimon to give him a proper burial, but he was never found. As he was gone forever-- banished by the scream of a woman.
When Paimon Manifests, he often demonstrates himself as a romantic and a ladies' man despite his ungodly appearance, occasionally offering love advice to men, but tends to be a flatterer towards women. He likes it his binders to exude confidence, and sympathizes with those who's trust has been betrayed.
Paimon might impose disadvantage on your check to bind him if you are hesitant when speaking to him, or if he suspects you would use his powers to harm a creature of the opposite sex, or assault a performer. That being said, Paimon might offer advantage on the check instead if he is convinced you will use his powers to take vengeance or reclaim a loved one. In addition, Paimon's manifestation will vanish instantly if a woman present screams in shock or fright, ending the pact making ritual.

If you make a poor pact with Paimon, he influences your personality in one of the following ways:


Influence
Description


Personality Trait
The first thing I do upon reaching a new place is court a handsome man/fair maiden, race rarely even matters to me.


Flaw
I can never resist the allure of music - song and dance are my life now.

The_Doctor
2015-08-30, 02:44 PM
Can't see any problems with Paimon at first glance. Any comments on Don? (Also, you get a cookie if you get the reference without Googling.)

Prince Zahn
2015-08-30, 03:47 PM
Can't see any problems with Paimon at first glance. Any comments on Don? (Also, you get a cookie if you get the reference without Googling.)The art reminds a friend & me of Sailor Moon And/or Precure.:smallconfused: not that I know/remember anything from either of them. We didn't use do an online search, though.

First off - from all of those physical signs, choose 1, please. The goal of a physical sign is to hint at the vestige's presence, not transform the binder entirely. Full-on transformation is what Lycanthropy, or the Warped Fate Binder subclass is for.

I'll get to the point: I think you did a very intelligent thing by modelling multiple abilities off of a single mechanic (I.e. while you have this active, you can this and that as well). That shows innovation and elegance by having abilities that interact with each other, I hope you perfect this vestige with that in mind. All in all, the vestige feels to me like It can be more powerful for it's awesomeness (As a rule of thumb, If the doctor brings a vestige to the table, you can expect it to be awesome whether you understand it or not). 8-9th level vestiges are hardest for me, although some might disagree, because for them to be attractive, they need to be at an exalted power level, on par with the strongest abilities available to player characters while not overshadowing what is canon. What I'm saying is: A vestige At that power level needs to be comparable with a 9th level spell. And I think that by basing multiple functions on a single ability/function/mechanic you may have stumbled upon a key ingredient to making vestiges of ultimate power. Build upon that - own it.:smallsmile: but Don Thousand needs to be more powerful if you really want to place him realistically for a 18th+ level Binder.

The_Doctor
2015-08-30, 04:15 PM
Why thank you! *blush* I only made two changes, but they're big.

#1: I reduced the signs down to one.
#2: I added the monstrously powerful Numerronius Numerronia ability.

And finally, I admit it, Don Thousand is from the Yu-Gi-Oh! ZeXal anime. *dies of shame*

EDIT: This is just for fun.


So you want to create a Vestige with synchronous mechanics, eh? What is it this time? Spells that chain off each other? A complex fighting style? Seems pretty overwhelming, doesn't it? Trust me. I'm the Doctor.

Step 1. Think of a theme for your vestige. I.E. why do these mechanics interlock with each other? Let's take an example, so far the only one: Don Thousand. He is based off of Yu-Gi-Oh! cards that all revolve around each other, with one pretty much being required to activate the next, and so forth. Let's get specific.
Numeron Calling: This ability, in game, summons four Numerons that can make each other bigger.
Chaos Gate: A monster in-game, that requires one of the four Numerons from earlier. It temporarily removes the field of monsters, then brings them back again in a titanic explosion.
Chaos Ritual: When the above is destroyed, the fun begins. It summons a creature of colossal power that can shape the battlefield.
Numerronius Numerronia: Finally, they destroy the above creature. Rejoice!... or not. Its destruction has brought forth a far more powerful creature, one that can negate attacks and potentially win you the game.

Step 2. Think of how to express your theme in mechanics and flavor.
Numeron Calling: What better way to make things better attackers than giving advantage? For balance, however, it gives it to almost everyone.
Chaos Gate: Suspending the above ability grants you the ability to deal mass damage.
Chaos Ritual: Keeping it suspended creates a zone of powerful antimagic, a.k.a. controlling the battle.
Numerronius Numerronia: And finally our most titanic ability. Was advantage on all attacks not good enough for you? Was dealing 6d6 damage not enough? Was RUINING THE LIVES OF SPELLCASTERS NOT ENOUGH?! THEN WE CAN RUIN THE LIVES OF EVERYONE BY MAKING ATTACKS NEAR MEANINGLESS!

Step 3. There should be 1 or 2 other abilities that don't relate to any of the above, so that once all of them are exhausted you have something to fall back on. Create those now.

Step 4. Create a thematic name an title.

Step 5. You can create the small bits now, such as Sign, Manifestation, Level, and Influence. You're done!

Scarce
2015-08-31, 01:40 AM
@Paimon: I can't believe I thought that was a 2nd level vestige! Anyway, onto the features.

Grace: I don't love the idea of making a check every round to sustain this ability for a few reasons. Firstly, its bound to slow down gameplay. With a feature that has a changing DC each round, having to roll again each turn will just be a lot to keep up with. Secondly, a passive disadvantage is pretty powerful, since you can use this for two or three rounds in a row against all attacks before the save DCs start getting out of hand. I might change it to making a Performance check as a reaction when you're attacked, with a save DC equal to the attack roll, to halve damage on a success.

Paimon's Swordsmanship: Just make this effect constant. It's simpler and doesn't require a check.

Dance of Death: This feature is okay, but it doesn't do a great deal. Since it's really quite vestigial (pardon the pun) I might actually just cut this feature entirely.

Combat Superiority. Love it. It's simple and powerful. I'm thinking there should be a 5th level vestige and a 7th level vestige that has a Combat Superiority feature as well, so that if you pick all of them, you get a solid number of Superiority dice and maneuvers. This means we probably shouldn't give another die for free at 13th level.

Also consider granting proficiency in the rapier, shortsword, and scimitar.


That being said, I'll be changing up Andras to work with newer Paimon. It'll definitiely be a 5th level vestige when I'm done.

Andras
The Grey Knight
4th Level Vestige
Sign: You sprout two useless, gray-feathered wings from your back. The wings are small enough to be hidden beneath a shirt or cloak, but doing so makes you appear hunchbacked.

Bonus Proficiencies
While you are bound to Andras, you are proficient with greatswords, lances, and longswords.

Phantom Steed
You can cast the spell phantom steed at will.

Improved Critical
Your melee weapon attacks with the greatsword, lance, and longsword score a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20.

Sow Discord
Andras grants you the ability to sow discord among your enemies. As a bonus action when a creature you can see within 30 feet makes an attack, you can force that creature to make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, the creature instead attacks a creature you choose within its attack range. After using this ability, you cannot do so again until you complete a short or long rest.

Combat Superiority
When bound to a pact with Andras, you know maneuvers that are fueled by special dice called Superiority Dice.
Superiority Dice. You gain 3 superiority dice, which are d6s. Your superiority dice are d8s if you already possess the Combat Superiority feature, or d10s if you have the Improved Combat Superiority feature. A superiority die is expended when you use it. You regain all of your expended superiority dice once you finish a short or long rest.
Maneuvers: You gain the following maneuvers:

Feinting Attack. You can expend one superiority die and use a bonus action on your turn to feint, choosing one creature within 5 feet of you as your target. You have advantage on your next attack roll against that creature. If that attack hits, add the superiority die to the attackís damage roll.
Menacing Attack. When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can expend one superiority die to attempt to frighten the target. You add the superiority die to the attackís damage roll, and the target must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, it is frightened of you until the end of your next turn.




Andras was once an elf paladin famed for his prowess in battle and his implacable dedication to doing what was right and good for all. A series of misjudgments and misfortunes broke Andrasís faith in both himself and his deity, however, and he became a blackguard.
During his subsequent service to the dark gods, his infamy rapidly outgrew his fame, and his name was whispered in fear. After nearly three hundred years of almost constant battle on behalf of both good and evil, Andras grew tired of both causes. In the midst of a duel in the key battle of a great war, he simply dropped his weapon and left, never to be seen alive again. Sages speculate that after his betrayal of both causes, he was no longer welcome in any godís realm, and thus his soul was condemned to become a vestige.

If you make a poor pact with Andras, he influences your personality in one of the following ways:
Personality Trait: I am listless and emotionally remote.
Flaw:I tire of combat quickly. Without warning, I may simply drop my weapon and retire from battle.

The_Doctor
2015-08-31, 12:11 PM
Andras looks good. Suppose we made a level 9 combat superiority vestige as well?

Also, Scarce, any comments on Don Thousand?

EDIT: Zahn? Anyone? You home? HOW DARE YOU NOT HAVE TIME FOR CREATING THE BINDER--er, I mean, it's too bad I seem to be the only one checking this every day.

Scarce
2015-09-01, 05:11 PM
Also, Scarce, any comments on Don Thousand?


Honestly, it's a little confusing. Now, it's entirely possible that I'm a little dense, but the amount of interlocking going on is a lot to process at any point of time. Some of the stuff that makes this difficult is the fact that some of the abilities like Chaos Gate lasts for a single action, then transitions to a new event immediately (a fact that you need to read the next feature to know), where Chaos Ritual lasts for a duration and transitions to the next ability without any action (which, again, you'll have to read the next feature to know.) This stuff changes often enough, and the transitions change often enough, that it takes a few reads to understand fully (and even then, I'll be rereading it mid-game to make sure I haven't messed it up.)

To be perfectly clear: I like the round-robin ability vestige design, but a few pieces of the implementation need to be polished. Lasting until you roll initiative is a little confusing. Does that mean you can use these abilities at will when you're not in combat?

Anyway, I would be trying to simplify these abilities to static abilities, rather than attacks which end if you don't transition, for simplicity's sake. This way, you can use the same template for transitions and duration to simplify things.

Scarce
2015-09-01, 05:21 PM
I've got Savnok as a Defense Vestige. Not sure which level to put it at at the moment, but I'm thinking 3rd or higher, since armor proficiency is worth a lot. For now, let's call it 6th, for no reason other than the fact that there's nothing else at this level.

Savnok
The Instigator
4th Level Vestige

Armor Proficiency
While bound to Savnok, you have proficiency in medium armor. If you already have medium armor proficiency, you instead gain proficiency in heavy armor.

Call Armor
As an action, you can summon any armor you are proficient in wearing, which appears about your body. You can dismiss this armor as a bonus action.

Move Ally
You can use your action to teleport up to 30 feet to a space occupied by a willing Small or Medium creature, swapping places with it.

Death Ward
When you bind Savnok, you become under the effect of the spell death ward, with a duration of 24 hours. If this spell ends for any reason, it remains ended until you rebind Savnok following a long rest.

Savnokís Armor
As a bonus action, you can cause your armor to fortify, fusing its joints and increasing its thickness. Until the end of your next turn, you can reduce all damage taken from attacks by 3, but your movement speed is reduced to 10 feet. If you are wearing heavy armor, you can reduce damage by 5. This reduction does not stack with any other form of reduction, including resistance.

PACT INFORMATION:
Savnok lived before recorded history, and his story likely contains as much myth as it does fact. According to legend, Savnok served Hextor and Heironeous before the two half-brothers came to blows. The gods were charged with guarding their motherís diefic armory while she met with her lovers. Both Hextor and Heironeous were awed and tempted to don their motherís implements of war, but neither son dared disobey his mother.

Out of devotion for his masters, Savnok plotted to steal the godly weapons and armor for them. However, once his gaze fell on the goddessís armor, Savnok could not resist donning it. Just touching the metal made him drunk with power. After putting it on, he knew he could never take it off, so he fled the godly realms with the divine armor.

Hextor and Heironeous soon noticed that their servant and the armor were missing. When they looked for Savnok, they found him at war on the Material Plane. Shocked at his betrayal, Hextor and Heironeous appeared before Savnok and ordered him to relinquish their motherís armor. Their former servant responded by attacking, and although he could not harm them, neither could they harm him. Heironeous flew into the sky and tore thunderbolts from the clouds to hurl at Savnok, to little effect. But Hextor, realizing that they needed diefic weapons to defeat the armor, fled back to his motherís armory and found a great bow. Hextor barely had the strength to draw his motherís bow, but with each arrow he fired, a dozen missiles streaked down to strike Savnok. Though the arrows had little power behind them, they pierced the armor, and as Savnok raged at the injustice the two gods had done him, he slowly bled to death from hundreds of shallow wounds.

When at last Savnok lay dead, Hextor and Heironeous removed the armor and debated what to do next. Not only had they failed to guard their motherís armory, but Hextor had also stolen her bow and arrows, making him yet another guilty party. Hextor suggested that they hide Savnok and replace the items, leaving their mother none the wiser. Heironeous didnít like the plan, but he wanted to protect his half-brother. Together, the two gods hid Savnokís essence in a place even they could not reach. Heironeous has regretted this decision ever since.

If you make a poor pact with Savnok:

Personality Trait: I am headstrong and defiant of authority.

Flaw: Once I make up my mind on a matter, nothing can change it.

Physical Sign: Blood oozes from your armor.

The_Doctor
2015-09-02, 09:51 AM
I'm not sure how I could do it without failing at getting all the flavor, but I'll think of something.

The_Doctor
2015-09-02, 09:53 AM
On Savnok: I think it looks great, just one tiny suggestion (which is just my $0.02 and you don't have to take) is for the Heavy Armor damage reduction to stay at 2, but have an additional one for magical weapons.

Prince Zahn
2015-09-04, 06:50 AM
Hey guys sorry for disappearing on you guys this week! I just got back to work for another year (we closed for the a couple of weeks before september so I had a fair bit of free time) and I also signed up for some tests I need to study for. They'll hopefully improve my odds of getting into a good university down the line.
I shouldn't bore you with all the details, should I? - this is a binder thread, not a "my life" thread :smalltongue:

I usually like to return from absence with some progress made, but time is of the essence today. Instead I'll review breiefly some stuff:

On Combat Superiority. it is, undeniably, a fighter deal, which is not an issue to replicate as long as the Binder remains inferior to the equivalent level Battlemaster fighter in terms of using CS. With Paimon's case, it comes in the form of preset maneuvers, smaller dice pools and lower dice rolled. But the only thing I insist on is that this remains true throughout all levels. Especially when we total up all the vestiges that offer CS at once. Any suggestions on how we could do that?

Paimon. Thank you both for your feedback. I will be sure to implement it and see if I can do something more elegant at the table for my next iteration. Any further commentary that you feel should he mentioned?

Don. I think it'll help you a bit not to look at it exclusively as a Yu-Gi-Oh! Card. Try to stay true to the feel with a smoother, mechanic. Also, if it helps, I'd also like to point you to Tenebrous's deeper darkness for inspiration. It's not entirely the same direction but it might give you an idea. You can find him in the Vestige Codex in ny sig. [/constantreference]

Savnok.If you want to tailor Savnok to a 12th Binder, I think Move Ally could be more powerful for a vestige of his level. I'd think making it rest powered doesn't cut it. Perhaps something like "You can use this feature again after the next time you roll initative". Either that, or get rid of conditions - don't ask for willing, and don't ask for size.

Also, How does Savnok's Armor interact with the Heavy Armor Master feat? I'd suggest approaching this ability from a different direction.

I just ran out of time so I'll see you guys later! Have a nice weekend!

The_Doctor
2015-09-04, 09:12 AM
I have two announcements to make:

1. My playtest is today!

2. The link to the Vestige Codex leads right back to this thread.

Prince Zahn
2015-09-04, 10:17 AM
Yay!

The link is fixed, thanks for noticing! There was also a proper link to the Vestige Codex in my sig if you're ever in a jam.:smallsmile:

The_Doctor
2015-09-04, 11:03 AM
The link was actually broken for a while, but I didn't think to say anything.

But also, hooray for playtesting! I think I'll test out Amon first. Or maybe Dahlver-Nar.

Prince Zahn
2015-09-05, 10:22 AM
So....How was your first playtest session, Doctor?:smallsmile:

Anyway, I need your help on something guys since I'm not sure where to proceed with this:
The 13th level (or the 17th level) feature for the Warped Fate Binder. I was thinking that whatever I do for the last WFB ability will include changing your type to either Monstrosity or Aberration (don't know if that should be temporary or permanent). I want to have an ability that changes the Binder's anatomy, which means a choice of 2 or 3 features that allow him to turn into something that is undeniably no longer human. Though this effect should be temporary. Any suggestions?

The_Doctor
2015-09-05, 11:57 AM
I actually don't know about the Warped Fate ability.


Playtest: Amon got playtesting done, slightly. He only got to do one thing, though: his fire breath. Both targets saved, so he dealt a measly 1 damage to both. Though they did catch fire, which was cool.

Prince Zahn
2015-09-05, 02:44 PM
I actually don't know about the Warped Fate ability.Okay, if you meant you don't have any ideas, just let me know if something comes up. If you meant you didn't read it I highly suggest you do, as it is a priority for me to get the subclasses done and polished up have them all feel like tempting option. Anaximander's idea, as I understood it, was to give the binder more physical signs he could weaponize. My interpretation is that there is a monster that grows inside of your soul that you learn to let out - good for players who want their character to become a "monster".The idea is kinda inspired by Pathfinder's summoner and his Eidolon.



Playtest: Amon got playtesting done, slightly. He only got to do one thing, though: his fire breath. Both targets saved, so he dealt a measly 1 damage to both. Though they did catch fire, which was cool. that's alright, bad rolls happen, enemies succeed saves sometimes. Thankfully it's an at-will ability, so if you want to focus on testing the fire breath first, I suggest you use it generously and experiment the varying length of breath-holding. If, say, you see it right that the math is problematic, or if you see a pattern where the combat ends before you could use the strongest breath, or some other complication, keep me informed. Ideally, the breath holding should have a slightly better payoff than using cantrips each round you wait.

Rome wasn't built in a day, I can wait for further test notes.

Questions for Doctor and Spiriah: did you succeed on the pact or fail? (and if you failed, how was having the influence?) What do you think of the streamlined DCs?
Did any problems arise with it or things that could be improved upon it?

ImSAMazing
2015-09-05, 03:54 PM
Haven't posted in a while, but I knew of this homebrew since the first thread about it was made. Sadly I don't have any playtest results yet(Personal issues), but I do want to say I really like how this class is advancing. Everything looks balanced, fun to play and most importantly it fits the 5th edition design. Keep up the work Prince Zahn, The_Doctor and Scarce! I am sorry I don't have the time for detailed feedback, but I look at this thread each day to see how it is advancing because this is the best homebrew class for 5th edition if you ask me. Just wanted to share that.

Prince Zahn
2015-09-05, 04:11 PM
Haven't posted in a while, but I knew of this homebrew since the first thread about it was made. Sadly I don't have any playtest results yet(Personal issues), but I do want to say I really like how this class is advancing. Everything looks balanced, fun to play and most importantly it fits the 5th edition design. Keep up the work Prince Zahn, The_Doctor and Scarce! I am sorry I don't have the time for detailed feedback, but I look at this thread each day to see how it is advancing because this is the best homebrew class for 5th edition if you ask me. Just wanted to share that.

Thank you so much for your kind words! I couldn't ask for more than people living and loving the class. You're always welcome to share any ideas and experiences you might gain, and make stuff with us!

Scarce
2015-09-06, 04:26 PM
The 13th level (or the 17th level) feature for the Warped Fate Binder. I was thinking that whatever I do for the last WFB ability will include changing your type to either Monstrosity or Aberration (don't know if that should be temporary or permanent). I want to have an ability that changes the Binder's anatomy, which means a choice of 2 or 3 features that allow him to turn into something that is undeniably no longer human. Though this effect should be temporary. Any suggestions?

I like the idea of making the warped fate change the binder's type to Abberation. Here's an additional idea:

Indiscernible Anatomy
At ___ level, the placement and composition of your internal organs is bizarre. You take no additional damage from critical hits.

While on my blog, I try to reuse mechanics which are broad enough to apply to multiple character archetypes. This is one of those mechanics.

EDIT: Also, I've been playing with Savnok, and I'm starting to wonder if a better mechanical fix would be to move it to 4th or 5th level. I think it's important to value medium or heavy armor proficiency as something very powerful, akin to Extra Attack, which is why I placed it so high in the first place. Any ideas as to what level it should go to?

Scarce
2015-09-08, 06:25 PM
So I've been implicitly thinking about the levels of the attack and defense vestiges to have one of each at level 1 (and maybe also at level 2) then primary attack vestiges being at odd levels (Paimon at 3rd, Andras at 5th, and Eligor at 7th) and primary defense vestiges at even levels. With that being said, I think Haagenti will be best at level 2 and Savnok at level 4.


Haagenti
Mother of Minotaurs
2nd Level Vestige

Bonus Proficiencies
While bound to Haagenti, you have proficiency with shields, battleaxes, and greataxes.

Fighting Style
You adopt the following style of fighting as your specialty. You can't take a Fighting Style option more than once, even if you later get to choose again.

Great Weapon Fighting. When you roll a 1 or 2 on a damage die for an attack you make with a melee weapon that you are wielding with two hands, you can reroll the die and must use the new roll, even if the new roll is a 1 or a 2. The weapon must have the two-handed or versatile property for you to gain this benefit.

Ruse of Giants
You can speak, read, and write the language Giant. Additionally, you have advantage on Deception checks against creatures of the Giant type.

Immunity to Transformation
As a bonus action, you can end the effects of any transmutation spell affecting you that you choose. You are also immune to being petrified.

Ire of Frost
As an action, you can radiate a hateful blue frost to those around you. Each creature you choose within 5 feet of you must make a Dexterity saving throw. On a failed save, the creature's base movement speed is reduced by 5 feet for 1 minute and takes 3d8 cold damage. On a successful save, the creature takes half as much damage. Beginning at 9th level, the range of this ability increases to 10 feet. After using this ability, you must complete a long rest before using it again.

Touch of Confusion
As a bonus action, select 1 creature you can touch to make a Charisma saving throw. On a failed save, the creature must roll a d20 each time it attacks until the end of its turn. On a 10 or lower, it's attack misses. After using this ability, you must complete a long rest before using it again.


The tale of how minotaurs originated changes according to the culture and race of the teller, but binder lore blames Haagenti. Thrym, the primary deity of frost giants, sought consorts among his mortal worshippers, among whom was Haagenti, a hill giant sorceress who used a spell to transform herself into a beautiful frost giant. When the children born of his dalliances had grown old enough, Thrym set out to visit and test them all. He fought each child to see who was the strongest and bravest, intending to invite the most fit to join him in Jotunheim. When he sought out Haagenti, he found her herding cattle in the warm lowlands and became enraged when he saw her true form, that of a hill giant.

In a rage, Thrym cursed Haagneti and her children to resemble the cattle with which they wallowed, turning them into minotaurs. Then he left, vowing to teach his frost giant worshipers to distrust all beauty.

How Haagenti became a vestige is unclear, but binder lore holds that her ugliness was so complete she could find no eternal home anywhere, for the sight of her spirit disturbed the gods. Haagenti refuses to speak on the subject and becomes angry when questioned about her past.

When you make a poor pact with Haagenti, she influences your personality in the following ways:

Personality Trait: You feel ashamed of my appearance while around beautiful creatures.

Bond: Your alliances belong to the most attractive and charismatic creature that you can see.

Prince Zahn
2015-09-09, 01:48 PM
I like the idea of making the warped fate change the binder's type to Abberation. Here's an additional idea:

Indiscernible Anatomy
At ___ level, the placement and composition of your internal organs is bizarre. You take no additional damage from critical hits.

While on my blog, I try to reuse mechanics which are broad enough to apply to multiple character archetypes. This is one of those mechanics.

I updated the Warped Fate Binder - now the link in the Table of Contents (or 2nd post) accurately links to to it.

Sure, let's try that. it might be useful if it's not exclusive to a particular class or race.:smalltongue: but I don't want copypasting mechanics to become a regular thing, lest we have the kind of binder who gets the best stuff out of every class and would be an excuse for players who want to be anything and everything(#YeahLet'sTryToAvoidThat) if we have to use a lot of stuff, they are to be adjusted. this is because I'm trying to keep things unique and attractive.


So I've been implicitly thinking about the levels of the attack and defense vestiges to have one of each at level 1 (and maybe also at level 2) then primary attack vestiges being at odd levels (Paimon at 3rd, Andras at 5th, and Eligor at 7th) and primary defense vestiges at even levels. With that being said, I think Haagenti will be best at level 2 and Savnok at level 4. Given the current arrangement of CS, I would appreciate if we could agree that no more vestiges beyond Paimon and Andras to have Combat Superiority, unless someone has an idea how we could get past the superiority dice inflation. this means Eligor and any other combat vestiges(both offensive and defensive) might require a different solution to their ability set. I hope you will agree it is very sensible that the Binder should not be a better Battle Master than the Fighter who chose that archetype.



Haagenti
Mother of Minotaurs
2nd Level Vestige

Bonus Proficiencies
While bound to Haagenti, you have proficiency with shields, battleaxes, and greataxes.

Immunity to Transformation
As a bonus action, you can end the effects of any transmutation spell affecting you that you choose. You are also immune to being petrified.

Touch of Confusion
Select 1 creature you can touch to make a Charisma saving throw. On a failed save, the creature must roll a d20 each time it attacks until the end of its turn. On a 10 or lower, it's attack misses. After using this ability, you must complete a long rest before using it again.

When you make a poor pact with Haagenti, she influences your personality in the following ways:

Personality Trait: You feel ashamed and bashful around beautiful creatures.

Bond: Your alliances belong to the most attractive and charismatic creature that you can see.

Immunity to transformation is seems very powerful and out of place for it's level, but at the same time it's situational. All in all, I'm not sure what to think of it. at the same time, I think Haagenti might need another defense ability under her belt, maybe if you could come up with a ribbon for her it would be nice too, but I'm not going to push you into adding too much.
Here's another thought, if you feel you're up to it - see if you could make her legend a little briefer. When I write up a vestige, I'm trying to avoid making it as long as the original to ease on new readers. also - by changing the length and perhaps content of the original tale into something that fits the new edition more snuggly, more people are likely to read it, because it won't be exactly same as the one in the Tome of Magic.

I'm not going to point a gun to anybody's head to write the whole stories from scratch, but I'd like you guys to consider how we could make the experience new for anyone like us who is well-versed in Pact Magic to rediscover some new details.:smallcool:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
As mentioned above, I updated the Warped Binder post, you can find it on page 1.(Post #2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?430658-PEACH-Fifth-Edition-Binder-Class-II-%28Still-WIP%29&p=19596234&postcount=2#post19596234))
I'm still missing one more feature option at 17th level, and would like some friends to PEACH the existing (and new!) ones. once the Warped Binder is ready we can move on to the other subclasses and other parts of the Binder set that needs tweaking!:smallbiggrin:

That's all for tonight. peace out!

Scarce
2015-09-09, 08:16 PM
Given the current arrangement of CS, I would appreciate if we could agree that no more vestiges beyond Paimon and Andras to have Combat Superiority, unless someone has an idea how we could get past the superiority dice inflation. this means Eligor and any other combat vestiges(both offensive and defensive) might require a different solution to their ability set. I hope you will agree it is very sensible that the Binder should not be a better Battle Master than the Fighter who chose that archetype.


Agreed. I have some other ideas for the other Eligor, and maybe some other combat vestiges. I'm also thinking that no vestige should offer a second Extra Attack. Eligor will probably get Extra Attack, but nothing should offer two extra attacks.



Here's another thought, if you feel you're up to it - see if you could make her legend a little briefer. When I write up a vestige, I'm trying to avoid making it as long as the original to ease on new readers. also - by changing the length and perhaps content of the original tale into something that fits the new edition more snuggly, more people are likely to read it, because it won't be exactly same as the one in the Tome of Magic.


Totally. I'll work on it.

Also, I've got a 50% Eligor and a 75% Malphas done.

Submortimer
2015-09-10, 09:39 AM
I've stayed out of this Binder communal homebrew so far, but I think it's about time I threw my hat in the ring. Binder was my hands down favorite class in all of 3.5, and I really like the way this is shaping up. I'll happily take on a few 8th level vestiges (since we seem to be missing those), as well as anything else you guys think is needed.

Prince Zahn
2015-09-10, 09:46 AM
I've stayed out of this Binder communal homebrew so far, but I think it's about time I threw my hat in the ring. Binder was my hands down favorite class in all of 3.5, and I really like the way this is shaping up. I'll happily take on a few 8th level vestiges (since we seem to be missing those), as well as anything else you guys think is needed.

Yay! A new customer! Welcome! :smallbiggrin:

You are by all means welcome to pick up the proverbial pen and draft up some things. I hope you were keeping track of our discussion, since we're always talking about how we can improve our vestiges and avoid inflation.
Any particular vestiges you had in mind to make?:smallsmile:

Scarce
2015-09-10, 10:02 AM
I've stayed out of this Binder communal homebrew so far, but I think it's about time I threw my hat in the ring. Binder was my hands down favorite class in all of 3.5, and I really like the way this is shaping up. I'll happily take on a few 8th level vestiges (since we seem to be missing those), as well as anything else you guys think is needed.

That's the most exciting news I've heard all week! You've put out some of my favorite content on this entire site (not even exaggerating.) I so look forward to working with you.

@Savnok: Edited for Zahn's and The Doctor's comments, and legend reduced slightly. Changes spoilered.

Summoned Armor can be dismissed as a bonus action.
Move Ally is now no longer rest limited.
Savnok's Armor rewritten as a once per short or long defensive ability, which applies to all damage, and scales if you are wearing heavy armor.


General Binder thought: I actually wonder if we'll be able to have enough vestiges from 3.5 to complete all 9 levels (with some degree of choice at each level) without adding some of the non-canon vestiges. What's your take?

Submortimer
2015-09-10, 10:04 AM
We'll need to pad the list out a LITTLE, but not much. Likely more on the higher end.

Prince Zahn
2015-09-10, 10:15 AM
Updated the Vestige Codex, under request, and because I was lagging behind on it a bit:smallredface: I really wish I could promise a weekly schedule but I really don't know how my weeks are going to look like in the nearby future. not going to bore you with the details though.

As mentioned in the Vestige Codex (links in the OP and in my sig). I stripped my own vestiges of the (Alpha) status. I'm placing the decision of whether my vestiges need more work or are ready for testing in the hands of my regular, active contributors.

Amon (www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19509488&postcount=136)
Leraje (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19450897&postcount=100)
Naberius (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19315984&postcount=40)
Tenebrous (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19394949&postcount=86)
Karsus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?430658-PEACH-Fifth-Edition-Binder-Class-II-%28Still-WIP%29/page2&p=19709851&postcount=40#post19709851)
Eurynome (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19540274&postcount=146)
Paimon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19350691&postcount=63)
Paimon (Spell-less) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?430658-PEACH-Fifth-Edition-Binder-Class-II-%28Still-WIP%29/page3&p=19747459&postcount=65#post19747459)

* This list will not be updated in the future, but might be remade if needed.

@Scarce: :smalleek: I was hoping we wouldn't rush to this contingency yet, but okay:
I was thinking that once we run out of vestiges from the Tome of Magic (Which we undoubtably will, sooner or later--) we would look into the splatbook vestiges to fill the gaps between the missing levels, similar to what The Doctor did with Primus. to make sure that when where done, there's at least 4 vestiges of every given level to choose from (but let's try to refrain from more than 6, please?) however, there is a good bit of time before we even get to that stage, so let's try to focus on Tome of Magic Vestiges with the occasional Misc. Vestige and worry about filling the gaps when we know for certain what we are missing. :smallsmile:

ImSAMazing
2015-09-10, 11:16 AM
Hi,

Me again. Great work guys, keep it up! I like the idea of using splatbook Vestiges.

Submortimer
2015-09-10, 11:32 AM
@Scarce, Sorry for sniping you on this, but Eligor was always one of my favorites. I think I've given him enough good abilities to warrant being an 8th level vestige.

Eligor
Dragon's Slayer
8th Level vestige
DC: 22
Seal:
Sign: One of your hands becomes thickly scaled. The color of the scales is that of a dragon that uses the element you choose for Chromatic Strike.
Manifestation: Eligor clatters out of nothingness on a winged, half-horse/half-dragon monstrosity. Both rider and mount are heavily armored, and in fact Eligorís form is entirely obscured by ornate, shining plate armor and a grand helm. He carries a lance in one hand and holds a banner in the other. With each manifestation, Eligorís banner and mount change color, cycling through the five different colors of chromatic dragons. Although Eligor rides what might well be an evil creature, he always greets his summoner warmly and treats him with respect.

PROFICIENCIES
You gain proficiency in medium armor and shields. If you already have proficiency in medium armor, you gain proficiency in heavy armor.

Eligor's Skill in the Saddle: You add your proficiency Modifier to all Handle Animal checks made when dealing with Eligor's mount, and you gain a number of useful skills in the saddle:
- You can redirect an attack against your mount to yourself as a reaction.
- You gain advantage on melee attacks vs unmounted foes of medium size or smaller.
- Your mount gains Evasion

Eligor's Strength: When you bind Eligor, if your strength score was lower than 19, it becomes 19.

Chromatic Strike: Once per turn, you may chose to deal an additional 2d8 fire, lightning, cold, acid, or poison damage when you hit with a melee attack.

Extra Attack: When you take the attack action, you may attack twice instead of once.

Eligor's Resilience:While wearing heavy armor or using a shield, once per turn, you may reduce the amount of damage an attack that you can see deals by half.

Eligor's Companion: When you bind Eligor, You summon a mount as if casting Find Steed. This mount is identical to a Heavy Warhorse, with the exception that it physically appears to be half dragon. This mount stays with you while you are bound to Eligor, and vanishes if and when you break the pact. If your mount is killed, you may spend 10 minutes to re-summon it.

PACT INFORMATION:
Supposedly, Eligor was a great half-elf dragonslayer before he was condemned to a vestigeís existence by the actions of Tiamat. Believers of this legend claim that after Eligorís death, Tiamat sent her draconic minions against the followers of both the human and the elven deities, demanding that they release his soul to her. Despite Eligorís great service to both races, the deities gave up his soul to stave off the dragon attacks against their living followers. Only one deity argued against this profound injustice. The race and gender of this lone voice of reason differ with the teller, and not even binder scholars agree on whether the deity was human or elf, or even male or female. Whoever it was, this god set off alone to face Tiamat and wrest Eligorís soul from her grasp. Upon arrival, however, the deity found Eligor in the service of Tiamat rather than in bondage. Unbeknownst to the other gods, Tiamat had raised him from death to be her champion and enforcer, using his abandonment by the other gods to win his loyalty. Eligor and the nameless deity fought, and Eligor lost his life yet again. This time, no deity laid claim to his soul, since doing so had already caused enough trouble.

When binding, if presented with a handful of chromatic dragon scales of sufficient age (Adult or older), you gain advantage on the binding check. Eligor takes the scales with him, if used.

If you make a poor pact with Eligor, he influences your personality in one of the following ways:


Influence
Description


Personality Trait
I feel pity for all outcasts, particularly half-elves and half-orcs, and I will make every effort to befriend any such beings I meet.


Flaw
I was deeply wronged by the deities who abandoned me. As such, If able, I will attack humans, elves, or dragons in preference to all others whenever i am in combat.




Edit: Changed a few things, should be a bit more balanced and fun.

Prince Zahn
2015-09-10, 11:42 AM
@SAMazing Thanks!

@Submortimer: I pretty much agree with Scarce in terms of excitement here. I look forward to seeing what you will come up with.

-------------------------
regarding @Aym. I think we forgot about her. Anybody have an idea for what we could do with this vestige? I'd like it to be a tad different from the original version, her main advantage was that she allowed you to walk like a dwarf. But what good would that do for a real dwarf?

@Eligor: I generally don't like it when a vestige offers feats, because feats are an optional rule in this edition. I wouldn't say it's the most practical solution but Classes in 5e have to function independently of feats. I generally don't like giving skill profs (much less save profs for that matter) either, but for skills it's a lot easier to accept it from Vestiges of 7th level or higher, as you can never have more than 2 of those bound at a time. As such that's kind of a Gray area...

Submortimer
2015-09-10, 11:47 AM
@Eligor: I generally don't like it when a vestige offers feats, because feats are an optional rule in this edition. I wouldn't say it's the most practical solution but Classes in 5e have to function independently of feats. I generally don't like giving skill profs (or save profs for that matter) either, but it's a lot easier to accept it from Vestiges of 7th level or higher, as you can never have more than 2 of those bound at a time. As such that's kind of a Gray area...

Think about it more like this: Saying "You gain the Mounted Combatant feat" is shorthand. Eligor in 3.5 granted the Mounted Combat and Ride By Attack feats, I'm giving him those same abilities. This works even if you don't use feats in your game, since you're not getting a free bonus feat, just a benefit from the vestige; not only that, but since the info is in the PHB, is it can always be used for reference, even if feats aren't available to most characters.

As for the skill Prof, it's specific to mounts only, not just any animal. Slight limitation, but still a limitation.

Prince Zahn
2015-09-10, 11:53 AM
Think about it more like this: Saying "You gain the Mounted Combatant feat" is shorthand. Eligor in 3.5 granted the Mounted Combat and Ride By Attack feats, I'm giving him those same abilities. This works even if you don't use feats in your game, since you're not getting a free bonus feat, just a benefit from the vestige; not only that, but since the info is in the PHB, is it can always be used for reference, even if feats aren't available to most characters. I doubt that a DM who does not allow feats would permit a feature that grants a feat. On the same token, the ability is useless for a binder's build if, for any reason, he already invested in this feat. A lot can happen in 15 levels.

Submortimer
2015-09-10, 12:04 PM
Edited Eligor to remove mention of feats.

Submortimer
2015-09-10, 12:13 PM
On the same token, the ability is useless for a binder's build if, for any reason, he already invested in this feat. A lot can happen in 15 levels.

IMO, This should not be something that you use as a design philosophy point. There are lots of class abilities that can be nullified or be rendered useless based on a player's decisions; do what's thematic. Not every vestige will be as useful to every character the same way.

Prince Zahn
2015-09-10, 12:14 PM
Eligor's Strength: When you bind Eligor, if your strength score was lower than 19, it becomes 19.
(Alternate version: You gain advantage on all strength-based skill checks) I do like this feature. You can afford to have a safety net this late in the game.


Chromatic Strike: Upon binding Eligor, choose one damage type from the following list: Fire, Cold, Lightning, Acid, Poison. Your melee attacks deal an additional 1d8 damage of this type. On your turn, as a bonus action, you may choose a different damage type from the same list. I approve of this feature. I think. So far one of the things that I'm insanely curious about is the Binder's melee damage output. How much can he dish out? Is it worth focusing on melee combat if you are a binder? Is he too powerful in melee? When making the Warped Binder with a 1d6 damage claw attack or bite, I really don't have a clue how far it might escalate. :smallredface: besides, I'm usually a spellcaster, my strong suits lie in buffs, debuffs and BC.:smalltongue:

@Find Steed. As I mentioned before, I have a problem with this feature, (as well as Find Familiar, if that's what @Scarce had in mind with Malphas) because by RAW with these spells, the creature does not go away when the spells through. You supposedly get to keep them for good, and no longer having the spell (i.e. when the pact ends) does not dispel the creature you get. The "Find X" spells are not very compatible with this pact magic system, unfortunately, which is why I'd like to avoid them.


Eligor's Resilience: While wearing heavy armor, you gain resistance to Non-magical Bludgeoning, Piercing, and Slashing damage. I like this, too.

I'll need to think if I have more to add, but so far this is a good start. Mortimer and Scarce, you ought to team up on Eligor and see if you can make this even better.

Submortimer
2015-09-10, 12:20 PM
@Find Steed. As I mentioned before, I have a problem with this feature, (as well as Find Familiar, if that's what @Scarce had in mind with Malphas) because by RAW with these spells, the creature does not go away when the spells through. You supposedly get to keep them for good, and no longer having the spell (i.e. when the pact ends) does not dispel the creature you get. The "Find X" spells are not very compatible with this pact magic system, unfortunately, which is why I'd like to avoid them.


re read the ability; i specifically mention the mount goes away when you unbind from Eligor.


Other than that, thanks for the input!

Prince Zahn
2015-09-10, 12:28 PM
re read the ability; i specifically mention the mount goes away when you unbind from Eligor.

Okay, So, you pay 10 gp and an hour from your day for the steed. Pact ends eventually - steed vanishes. Spell is gone, C'est tout.
When you bind Eligor and find the steed again, do you need another hour from your day and another 10gp?:smallconfused:

Submortimer
2015-09-10, 12:34 PM
Okay, So, you pay 10 gp and an hour from your day for the steed. Pact ends eventually - steed vanishes. Spell is gone, C'est tout.
When you bind Eligor and find the steed again, do you need another hour from your day and another 10gp?:smallconfused:

No. There is no cost. The mount shows up when you bind eligor, vanishes when you unbind, and if killed, can be resummoned in 10 minutes. The point of saying "Find Steed" is that mounts summoned using tbat spell have certain benefits, and Eligor's mount has those too.

Edit: Also, Find Steed only takes 10 min to cast, and had no gold requirement.

Scarce
2015-09-10, 12:48 PM
@Scarce, Sorry for sniping you on this, but Eligor was always one of my favorites. I think I've given him enough good abilities to warrant being an 8th level vestige.
Sniping is fine - we came up with a lot of the same features.



PROFICIENCIES
Heavy Armor, Shields

While the original class did offer a ton of armor proficiencies for free, AC is a much more valuable resource in 5e, and I've been giving out these proficiencies much more carefully. Simply to keep 1 vestige from being the epitome of attack and defense, I would use the following:


Armor Proficiency
While bound to Eligor, you have proficiency in medium armor. If you already have medium armor proficiency, you instead gain heavy armor proficiency.

This is the same as Savnok, meaning the character has to invest more vestiges or feats into getting heavy armor.



Eligor's Skill in the Saddle: You add your proficiency Modifier to all Handle Animal checks made when dealing with Eligor's mount, and you gain a number of useful skills in the saddle:
- You can redirect an attack against your mount to yourself as a reaction.
- You gain advantage on melee attacks vs unmounted foes of medium size or smaller.
- Your mount gains Evasion


I like it.



Eligor's Strength: When you bind Eligor, if your strength score was lower than 19, it becomes 19.


I came up with almost exactly the same thing! Good stuff.



Chromatic Strike: Upon binding Eligor, choose one damage type from the following list: Fire, Cold, Lightning, Acid, Poison. Your melee attacks deal an additional 1d8 damage of this type. On your turn, as a bonus action, you may choose a different damage type from the same list.


I actually copied this very closely from the cleric class, as so:


Chromatic Strike
You gain the ability to infuse your weapon strikes with draconic energy. Once on each of your turns when you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack, you can cause the attack to deal an extra 1d8 acid, cold, lightning, or fire damage to the target.

The big difference being that mine was strictly once per round, as a cleric, and I also gave Extra Attack to buff the total power. This also works well for damage output, but I thought it would be wise to give another option, on top of Andras, that also offers Extra Attack, and this seemed the clear candidate.



Eligor's Resilience: While wearing heavy armor, you gain resistance to Non-magical Bludgeoning, Piercing, and Slashing damage.


This feature is really powerful. Again, as I don't like making any vestige too broad of a tool (a binder should choose between different vestiges for their strengths), and this is a very powerful tool. It's like an all-day rage for a non-barbarian or a free blade ward every round.



Eligor's Companion: When you bind Eligor, You summon a mount as if casting Find Steed. This mount is identical to a Heavy Warhorse, with the exception that it physically appears to be half dragon. This mount stays with you while you are bound to Eligor, and vanishes if and when you break the pact. If your mount is killed, you may spend 10 minutes to re-summon it.


That works.

Scarce
2015-09-10, 12:54 PM
Sorry for the double post, but I wrote this up on a lark today, and figured you guys would like it:


The Dude
He Who Abides
2nd Level Vestige

Boulder Roll
You become proficient in rolling boulders and other round objects less than 1 foot in diameter. This is considered a heavy throwing weapon (along the ground) and deals 1d8 bludgeoning damage on a hit. Bipedal creatures hit by this attack must make a Strength saving throw or be knocked prone.

Breath of Smoke
You can exhale a thick cloud of smoke from your lungs to cast fog cloud without expending a spell slot or spell components. After casting this spell, you must complete a short or long rest before using it again.

Psychedelic Influence
You can cast the spell hypnotic pattern without expending a spell slot or spell components. After casting this spell, you must complete a long rest before using it again.

Tranquil Disposition
You have advantage on checks against being frightened and creatures have disadvantage against intimidating you.


When you make a poor pact with the Dude, he influences you personality in one of the following ways

Flaw: I am lackadaisical and require critical danger to be raised before acting.

Personality Trait: I am frequently apathetic, with the exception of the topics involving the herbs of smoking pipes or beverages consisting of milk and mead.

Binder lore tells that the Dude came from a world that was different than ours. In his world, he was a pauper, though he shared his true name with a powerful lord. When the lord's maiden was kidnapped, the Dude was enlisted to participate in transferring a sack of the lord's gold to the kidnappers. However, because of the meddling influence of the Dude's compatriot, a warrior named Sobchak, the sack of gold was lost and the kidnappers refused to relinquish the lord's lady.

Many binders claim that the legend ends there, that the Dude was condemned to the void upon his death for unjust death of the lady (for the gods of that world are different than the gods of ours), but a few tell a much stranger tale. In this story, the lady was not merely kidnapped, but the kidnapping itself was a ruse. The events spiral out in a strange cascade from there, involving a band of atheists, psychedelic pipe weeds, and powerful matron of the god of fertility. The story is muddled today, but there seems to be some element of truth in this telling.

Prince Zahn
2015-09-10, 01:51 PM
Sorry for the double post, but I wrote this up on a lark today, and figured you guys would like it: Just as long as you aren't expecting me to update the Codex again today. That would be a bit too much for a little while, and I nearly got in trouble for it at work:smalleek::smallsigh: Nobody's fault but mine, though. I know that much.



[SPOILER=The Dude]
The Dude
He Who Abides
2nd Level Vestige

*snickers*
I'm just thinking about how addicts might revere him as a god, and becoming the "stoners of sacred seal" or something. Horrible joke I know but wow totally random.

Nitpicks:
Forcing movement and knocking a creature down sounds like a strength save to me.
Intimidated isn't a condition. Do you mean contests against Intimidation checks? A lot of things that make you immune to the frightened condition also make you immune to the charmed condition, would you say that applies here too?
No munchies?

Other than that, no complaints, I suppose.:smalltongue:
For some reason I feel really out of it, man!
DISCLAIMER: the fifth edition Binder thread II community does not condone the use of illegal narcotics, any pretense of such is clearly a false conspiracy by the spore-infested drowflayers. gamer discretion is advised.

Submortimer
2015-09-10, 02:20 PM
While the original class did offer a ton of armor proficiencies for free, AC is a much more valuable resource in 5e, and I've been giving out these proficiencies much more carefully. Simply to keep 1 vestige from being the epitome of attack and defense, I would use the following:


Armor Proficiency
While bound to Eligor, you have proficiency in medium armor. If you already have medium armor proficiency, you instead gain heavy armor proficiency.

This is the same as Savnok, meaning the character has to invest more vestiges or feats into getting heavy armor.


I like this quite a bit, I think I will change it.



I actually copied this very closely from the cleric class, as so:


Chromatic Strike
You gain the ability to infuse your weapon strikes with draconic energy. Once on each of your turns when you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack, you can cause the attack to deal an extra 1d8 acid, cold, lightning, or fire damage to the target.

The big difference being that mine was strictly once per round, as a cleric, and I also gave Extra Attack to buff the total power. This also works well for damage output, but I thought it would be wise to give another option, on top of Andras, that also offers Extra Attack, and this seemed the clear candidate.

Obviously, mine is copied from the paladin's Improved Divine Strike. That being said, I don't particularly like giving any class other than fighter more than one extra attack. Since the class itself grants extra attack, I'd rather his damage boosts come from somewhere else, like the paladin. For your version, I'd also bump the damage up to 2d8, just to make it worth being an 8th level vestige.



This feature is really powerful. Again, as I don't like making any vestige too broad of a tool (a binder should choose between different vestiges for their strengths), and this is a very powerful tool. It's like an all-day rage for a non-barbarian or a free blade ward every round.

Again, 8th level vestige. The single 9th level vestige we have right now grants the same thing, except it's to ALL B/S/P damage vice non-magical, and it's not restricted to heavy armor. This is certainly a decent step lower than that.

Perhaps I'm overestimating how powerful an 8th or 9th level vestige should be, if I am, please correct me.

Submortimer
2015-09-10, 02:23 PM
The events spiral out in a strange cascade from there, involving a band of atheists, psychedelic pipe weeds, and powerful matron of the god of fertility.


"No, Donny, these men are nihilists, there's nothing to be afraid of."

Prince Zahn
2015-09-10, 02:43 PM
That being said, I don't particularly like giving any class other than fighter more than one extra attack. Since the class itself grants extra attack, I'd rather his damage boosts come from somewhere else, like the paladin.

Just want to throw it out there: The Binder no longer provides a built-in extra attack as of 8/26/2015.

Peace out.

The_Doctor
2015-09-10, 03:35 PM
What the heck guys! I go to eat lunch and you suddenly create like 10 new posts!

LOL JK. I love this thread.

Hey, a newcomer! Welcome!

This reminds me of an idea I had: suppose we create vestiges of ourselves (with anaximander being a 9th level vestige of course)


EDIT: I am literally writing this just now; the idea just occurred to me.


Sagan
The Astronomer
8th level vestige
PROFICIENCIES:
You gain no proficiencies while bound to Sagan.
The Golden Record: The Golden Record was intended to communicate without shared language, and so can you. You can attempt to communicate with a creature that has at least 1 language. You communicate this message in pictures; you come up with the pictures and whether the creature understands the message is the DM's decision. However, you cannot use this ability in bright light.
Clouds of Venus: You can emit a rolling wave of hot smog as an action, engulfing an area within 30 feet centered on you. You are unaffected by this fog, but all other creatures must make a Constitution saving throw or be blinded and deafened for the duration of the cloud, and take 5d6 fire and 6d6 poison damage; if they succeed, they take half damage.. This cloud lasts for 3 rounds, during which time any creature who enters the cloud or stars their turn there takes an additional 2d6 fire and 4d6 poison damage.
Moon of Ice: You can hurl a huge sphere of ice at a foe, crashing into them with massive force. Once per short rest, you can have a target within 25 feet to make a Dexterity saving throw. If they fail, they take 6d10 cold and 6d10 bludgeoning damage, and if they succeed they take half damage.
Pale Blue Dot: You can focus the rays of what Sagan called "the pale blue dot" onto a foe within 40 feet, causing them 5d6 radiant and 3d6 cold damage unless they succeed a Dexterity saving throw.
If you make a poor pact, Sagan influences you in one of the following ways:
Personality Trait: You can sometimes spout into gibberish relating to stars. However, those around you can't understand you at all.
Flaw: You spend a lot of time talking about stars and the possibility of life living on them.

Sagan was a great astronomer, perhaps the best of them all. He studied the stars themselves, rather than just their positions. He deduced that Venus was a great ball of whirling hot fog; he realized some of the "stars" were other moons, and some were made of ice; and he found a distant star known as the "pale blue dot." He was known throughout the world, however, for his insistence that the stars had life living upon them, and for his ingenious feat of magic known as the Golden Record. He took a circle of gold and, using complex magic, imprinted it with images relating various culture of different races. He then launched it into the stars, to be found by whatever lives there. When he finally died of disease, some gods were offended by him, for some unknown reason, and condemned him to never enter the afterlife. Sagan was fine with this, much to their shock; he ascended beyond the stars he loved, into the unknown realm behind them.

Submortimer
2015-09-10, 04:35 PM
Just want to throw it out there: The Binder no longer provides a built-in extra attack as of 8/26/2015.

Peace out.

That does change some things, which adjusts how I'm gonna build from here on out. That being said, You removed "Extra attack" from the class table, but it's still there in the Class Abilities descriptions, thus my confusion.

The_Doctor
2015-09-10, 04:52 PM
Hey Mortimer! Any comments on my latest creation?

Submortimer
2015-09-10, 05:05 PM
And, with nothing up my sleeve, I pull an Orthos!

Orthos
Sovereign of the Howling Dark
9th Level vestige
DC: 25
Seal:
Sign: You always seem to be buffeted by a breeze that no one else can feel, even when youíre indoors. The eerie wind makes no noise, but it tousles your hair and belongings, frequently changing direction.
Manifestation: When Orthos begins to manifest, a breeze seems to pass over the summoner, but it ruffl es nothing except the summonerís hair and clothes. The breeze intensifi es, becoming a cold wind, and a low whistle emanates from the vicinity of Orthosís seal. Directly over it appears a black speckóa mote of shadow like a blind spot in the observerís vision. The whistle becomes a moan that slowly rises in pitch and volume, eventually transforming into a howl as the darkness spirals outward, opening like the pupil of some great catís eye with an explosive rush of wind. The howling grows so loud that it pains the ear while the seemingly nonexistent wind buffets the summoner. Then it stops. In the sudden silence, an unseen,
unheard, yet palpable presence slides out of the black aperture and hovers heavily over the seal. Though not detectable by any sense, Orthos is eerily extant, and its presence can be felt by even the dumbest of beasts. The vestige says nothing; its summoner can only plead her case and hope that Orthos does not impose its influence.

Whispering Wind: As an action, you may send simple messages on the wind to a creature you know. You may send a message of no more than 25 words up to 100 miles from your location, provided you are outside.

Howling Resilience: You gain advantage on saves to overcome spells and effects related to wind, air, or storms.

Howling Fury: You are constantly surrounded by a whirling, slashing wind. Any ranged weapon attacks made against against you are made at disadvantage.
Additionaly, as an action, you can direct the wind to lash out againot your foes. As an action, make a ranged spell attack against a foe you can see within 120 ft.; this attack deals 2d8 slashing and 2d8 thunder damage, and forces the target to make a strength saving throw or be knocked prone.

Eye of Darkness: You gain darkvision 60' if you did not have it before; if you did, your darkvision distance doubles and you can now see through magical darkness. Additionally, you gain Blindsight out to 30'

Whirlwind Breath: As an action, you can exhale a 60' cone of blasting, deafening wind. Each creature in the cone must make a Dexterity saving throw; on a failure, the creature takes 7d6 Thunder and 7d6 bludgeoning damage, is knocked prone, and is shoved to the edge of the cone. On a successful save, the damage is reduced by half, the creature is not knocked prone, and is only pushed 10 feet. Once you use this ability, you must take a short or long rest before you can do so again.

PACT INFORMATION:
Orthos might well be the original vestigeóthe first being to break the boundaries and see past the window of reality to the nothingness beyond. Pact magic texts always mention this entity, and persistent explorers can find its seal represented in art or architecture on most planes, as well as in the ruins of many ancient civilizations. Binder scholars have a thousand theories about Orthosís origins, but none is more than mere supposition. All agree that Orthos is inestimably old, and it has long since shed whatever form and persona it might once have had, becoming an alien and distant being. In deference to its great age and the hallmark of its appearance, binder scholars have dubbed Orthos the Sovereign of the Howling Dark.


If you make a poor pact with Orthos, he influences your personality in one of the following ways:


Influence
Description


Flaw
While influenced by Orthos, you are averse to darkened areas and loud noises. Although you can endure such conditions, they give you a sense of panic and make you short of breath. Orthos requires that you always carry an active light source with a brightness at least equal to that of a candle, and that you not cover it or allow it to be darkened for more than 1 round.


Personality Trait
Additionally, Orthos requires that you speak only in a whisper.



Edit: Made a change to Howling Fury at Zahn's suggestion.

The_Doctor
2015-09-10, 05:39 PM
Nice! Our third 9th level vestige!

Spiriah
2015-09-10, 08:26 PM
Hey, I'm back! I've got a few more sessions of Binder gameplay under my belt, and am currently sitting at 9th level. A few things I've noticed/opinions I have:

- The Extra Attack is REALLY important if you plan to be a Binder in melee, to the point where we're still using it in my group despite the revision. A very large number of vestiges are melee-centric in one way or another, and I find myself needing the extra attack and occasionally Paimon's haste dance (which I'm quite fond of) to keep up with the other melee damage dealers. Binder shouldn't be as good in melee as a devoted melee class, sure, but if you're limited to one attack without vestige support you'll never come close to being an effective melee combatant without optimization.

- Binder ranged/spell damage also seems a little lacking to me, though it may be due to a lack of not-at-will damage powers. I have had great success with Amon's breath, however, especially when an invisible enemy decided to engage me in melee just as I got to full charge.

- On a more enjoyment-related note, playing a Binder is really fun. It feels like playing a cleric or wizard in that you have to anticipate what you'll need to prepare for the coming day, but rather than spells you have a plethora of neat abilities you can mix and match (on a related note, the DM has dropped hints that we're going to be fighting a kraken or something similar, so if anyone feels like brewing up relevant vestiges, e.g. Shax, that would be helpful). Among other cool things I've done with the Binder, I landed Ipos's Rend on a vampire, killed it, and ripped out its spine. I have subsequently kept said spine, and am looking into using it as a magic item component.

- @Zahn: Haven't failed a pact yet, though I've come close. Had to use a luck point once or twice, though (Yeah, I know, using Lucky to dodge bad pacts isn't very flavorful, but better safe than sorry). I'm a fan of the streamlined DCs, too, especially with bounded accuracy being as it is and preventing 3.5's really high DCs from being possible, especially with prof bonus not being added to bind checks.

- @Fellow playtesters: If you're like me and can't keep all your vestige features straight, consider doing what I did and making vestige cards by transcribing a summary of their abilities onto index cards. Allows for the bonus feature of allowing you to shuffle the deck and pick vestiges at random!

Scarce
2015-09-10, 08:48 PM
@Spiriah: Once we get vestiges complete, I'll probably be making some pdfs vestige cards with the main pdf.

@Eligor: Perfect! You have a real talent for these.

@Orthos: Ha! I was actually working on this same one a few weeks ago too, with similar results. I like everything, though I ended up with one different feature:

Displacement
As a reaction when you are attacked or targeted by a spell, you can surround yourself with a light-bending glamer that makes it difficult for others to surmise your true location. If the attacker can determine your location with a sense other than vision, such as blindsight, truesight, or tremorsense, this ability has no effect. Otherwise, roll a d20. On an 11 or higher, the attack or spell misses you.

If you'd like, you can trade it out for Investiture of Wind (and btw, apparently its Wind and not Air), but don't feel compelled to, especially if it doesn't help the balance.

Scarce
2015-09-10, 09:32 PM
One more double-post to wrap up this amazingly productive day. Malphas:

Malphas
The Turnfeather
2nd level Vestige

Invisibility
You can cast the spell invisibility. After casting this spell, you must complete a short or long rest before casting it again. Beginning at 10th level, you can use this cast this spell twice between rests.

Sneak Attack
While bound to Malphas, once per turn, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit with an attack if you have advantage on the attack roll. The attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon. You donít need advantage on the attack roll if another enemy of the target is within 5 feet of it, that enemy isnít incapacitated, and you donít have disadvantage on the attack roll.

The amount of the extra damage increases as you gain levels. You gain damage as shown in the Sneak Attack column of the Rogue table as a rogue of half binder level, up to a maximum of 4d6. If you already have levels in the rogue class, you add half your binder level to your rogue level to determine the damage of Sneak Attack.

Poison Use
You gain proficiency with the poisoner's kit.

Turnfeather's Skill
While bound to Malphas, you do not have disadvantage on Dexterity (Stealth) checks from wearing any type of armor. Additionally, on your turn you can take the Dash, Disengage, or Hide action as a bonus action. After doing so, you must complete a short or long rest before using it again.

Bird's Eye Viewing
In a ritual requiring 1 minute of concentration, you can summon a dove or raven to aid your powers of observation. Appearing in an unoccupied space adjacent to you, your summoned bird has the statistics of a raven, though it is a celestial instead of a beast. You can only have 1 bird summoned at a time and you can dismiss it as a bonus action. This bird remains summoned until you stop binding with Malphas.

Your bird acts independently of you, but it always obeys your commands. In combat, it rolls its own initiative and acts on its own turn. Your bird canít attack, but it can take other actions as normal. Additionally, as an action you can see through your bird's eyes and hear what it hears until the start of your next turn, gaining the benefits of any special senses this creature has. During this time, you are deaf and blind with regard to your own senses.

Only elves well versed in elven history are likely to be familiar with the story of Malphas, once a member of an ancient kingdom's nobility. Malphas was always the black sheep of his family, and due to constant dissentions with his elders, was pressganged into joining a respected druidic order, in the hopes that it might teach him respect for elven culture. Against all odds, the plan seemed to work; Malphas's trademark, a white feather, began turning up at the sites where good deeds had been done, though noone ever saw him perform them.

This impression was all part of Malphasís act. Before committing to the order, he met another elfóa female who won his heart with guile and promises of power. Together they hatched a plan to eliminate the heirs to the throne, leaving Malphas king. While his white feathers turned up wherever good events were occurring, black feathers began to appear on the murdered corpses of royalty. Before eliminating his last target, Malphas was discovered and forced to flee.

Malphas flew to his loverís hideaway among the trees, intending to warn her and flee with her. But when she heard his story, she flew into a rage, mocking him for his stupidity and his overtures of affection. To wound him even more deeply, she revealed her true formóthat of a drow. When the elf authorities found Malphas, he lay on the ground, dead not from magic or physical harm, but from the breaking of his heart and the loss of his soul.

When you make a poor pact with Malphas, he influences your personality in one of the following ways:


Flaw: I fall in love too easily. Even a friendly gesture can turn my affections entirely.

Personality Trait: I lust for power, and use poison at every opportunity to achieve greater position.

Submortimer
2015-09-10, 09:44 PM
@Spiriah: Once we get vestiges complete, I'll probably be making some pdfs vestige cards with the main pdf.

@Eligor: Perfect! You have a real talent for these.

@Orthos: Ha! I was actually working on this same one a few weeks ago too, with similar results. I like everything, though I ended up with one different feature:

Displacement
As a reaction when you are attacked or targeted by a spell, you can surround yourself with a light-bending glamer that makes it difficult for others to surmise your true location. If the attacker can determine your location with a sense other than vision, such as blindsight, truesight, or tremorsense, this ability has no effect. Otherwise, roll a d20. On an 11 or higher, the attack or spell misses you.

If you'd like, you can trade it out for Investiture of Wind (and btw, apparently its Wind and not Air), but don't feel compelled to, especially if it doesn't help the balance.

Thanks for the props, Eligor turnes out just how I wanted him to.

I made the decision to go with the Investiture of Wind ability instead of displacement, mostly because i thought it would be more fun. I know displacement was part of the 3.5 vestige, but IoW gives them permanent wind wall, so thats pretty good, right?

Submortimer
2015-09-10, 09:55 PM
If anyone is interested, i have a fairly long list of vestiges built for 3.5. Most are high level superheros turned into vestiges, but alot of them still fit into some lore.

Off the top of my head:

- Lobo, the Main Man
- Radd, the Herald of the Stars
- Ion, Willpower Incarnate (evil recolor is Parallax, the Demon of Fear)
- Jedi, the Path of Peace (evil recolor is Sith, the Fury of Passion)
- Pyramid Head, Guilt's Butcher
- Rider, the Spirit of Vengance (honestly, this one doesnt even feel like a forced hero cameo. The SoV is basically a vestige already)
- Calibur, the Immortal Swordsman (non cameo)
- Alastair, the Speed in the Sword (sword from Devil May Cry)


I know I have more, i just dont remember them ATM.

The_Doctor
2015-09-10, 10:57 PM
I've gotta go to sleep now; if anyone wants to comment on my latest creation (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19798116&postcount=110) while I'm out, be my guest.

Prince Zahn
2015-09-11, 12:59 AM
Wow! A lot of things happened while I was gone:smalleek: I'm going to find a time to edit and address all these posts today so keep an eye on this post throughout the day.DONE! Still got more to keep up with now bbut hopefully not something I can't deal with tomorrow!

@On the topic of influence I would like to remind everyone that these are essentially Personality Traits/Ideals/Bonds and/or Flaws, and need to follow proper formatting. this includes first person descriptions (i.e I am...; I can be... ; I don't like...) this is stuff a binder should have on his to his character sheet alongside his other Traits/ideals/flaws/bonds (perhaps attached with tape, or something?:smallconfused:) and should thus be in the same format. also - vestiges don't "require" or "demand" from a vestige in the same way the used to. instead, a Binder can choose to whether or not to act upon a vestige's influence with the prospect of earning Inspiration for good roleplaying. this is how it works in Out of the Abyss, to my understanding, and this is how it works for the 5e Binder.

Onto the quotes!


I've gotta go to sleep now; if anyone wants to comment on my latest creation (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19798116&postcount=110) while I'm out, be my guest. Oops!:smallredface: missed that one. I'm on it!


This reminds me of an idea I had: suppose we create vestiges of ourselves (with anaximander being a 9th level vestige of course)

[SPOILER=The Astronomer]
Sagan
The Astronomer
8th level vestige
*snip*
I don't even think you should really need any action for Golden Record. it seems more interaction based. while my prefferred wording of RAW eludes me, I would probably say that by conjuring images of the great cosmos, you could communicate with any creature that has a language. to make things more flavorful, I would consider making this at-will ability not function in bright light. :3

@Clouds of Venus can afford to be much more powerful, according to spell damage rules in the DMG. without taking the effects into consideration, an 8th level spell has an expected damage output of 12d10 (or 13d6 for an area effect) or different damage dice with a close enough average (45.5 (http://anydice.com/program/2b3) on average for an area effect) - for example: 18d4 (http://anydice.com/program/66f7) and an additional 25% more damage output (http://anydice.com/program/1354) on top of that if there's no half damage/partial effect on a sucessful save.
also, is this an effect that lingers? does it have a duration? what are the durations for being blinded or deafened? Though it goes without saying in the DMG, these things added to the spell might reduce it's damage output to balance things out a bit.
@Moon of Ice and @Pale Blue Dot: see my thoughts on damage from Clouds of Venus.
personally, I think it's all bit overcompensating on the lack of the binder's damage output, I'd suggest either CoV, MoI or PBD be made at-will (with damage modified accordingly). either Moon of Ice or Pale Blue Dot could also just as easily be Ranged spell attacks instead if demanding saving throws, thus benefitting anything that would benefit a ranged spell attack.

Keep going doctor, these sparks of Inspiration are made of the same stuff that makes our world turn!


[SPOILER=Orthos, Sovereign of the Howling Dark]
Orthos
Sovereign of the Howling Dark

@Whispering Wind is essentially a hibrid of Message and Sending. for a 9th level vestige it doesn't seem unreasonable to have an at-will feature like that, I'd even increase the range.:smallsmile:
@Howling Resilience is kind of nice, but fairly limited in it's application I think. I'm not familiar with too many air spells that should trouble you this late in the game, but I didn't read to much into Elemental Evil.
@Howling Fury. Investiture of wind is a 6th level spell. I think that's a bit powerful to make a free passive ability, even by 20th level standards they don't get passive 6th level effects.
@Eye of Darkness seems fine, I think. I don't know when is a good level for Blindsight and how far it ought to be.
@Whirlwind Breath, as a damage spell, should have a damage output of 14d6 damage or amount with a similar average for an area effect. +25% if you remove the save for half. This is going by the DMG for constructing a spell.

So far I like it, overall. Keep it up!


Malphas
The Turnfeather
2nd level Vestige
speaking from my unpublished attempts, Malphas is one of the more difficult vestiges to translate into 5e:smallconfused: on the one hand, invisibility once per combat (or even at will) is really powerful for a 2nd level vestige (as well as for numerous vestige levels after that!) On the other hand, making it rest powered makes it too weak to work with, as it's intention in 3.5 was to allow for an easy sneak attack. Not that I really know of any applicable recharge mechanics that might apply. Personally, I wish we could use the recharge X-Y mechanic in the monster manual, but that would slow down combat significantly, as I understand it. And I can't allow adopting Monster Manual mechanics when building the homebrew Binder with a clear conscience. I think Malphas may need a solid level upgrade if we want to keep giving him invisibility as part of it's traditional purpose.
I think @Sneak Attack is pretty good, because it emulates but does not overpower the rogue staple feature with the same name. How does this feature interact with multiclass Rogue/Binder characters? :smallsmile:
I dig @Poison Use, I was thinking the exact same thing, making Malphas a very unique downtime vestige:smallbiggrin:
@Bird's Eye Viewing nice save on the "find" spell controversy. I think you could extend the duration of switching senses, but offer the option to end the "birdsight" early.

Submortimer
2015-09-11, 02:00 AM
Here's what i have for Aym

Aym
Queen of Avarice
2nd Level vestige
DC: 12
Seal:
Sign:While you host Aym, you bear a starshaped brand on the palm of your left hand or on your forehead, as you choose at the time you make the pact.
Manifestation:Aym arises from a coiled heap within the seal. She has two great worms for legs and three headsóone a lionís, one a female dwarfís, and one a bullís. Her powerfully muscled torso strains beneath the fi nery of an empress, and her fi ngers glitter with more than a dozen jeweled rings. In one hand she holds a red-hot, star-shaped branding iron, and with the other, she holds shut the lion headís mouth. Aymspeaks through her dwarf head, since both animal heads are incapable of speech. She prefers to keep the lion muzzled because if she doesnít, it roars and causes the bullís head to low in terror, making it impossible for her to hear.

PROFICIENCIES
While bound to Aym, you gain proficiency in medium armor.

Golden-Fisted Rule: You gain advantage on all intimidation checks and suffer disadvantage on all persuasion checks vs. Dwarves.

Golden Plate: Your speed is not reduced while wearing armor which you are not proficient in.

Golden Halo: As a bonus action, you may surround yourself with a halo of fire. You gain resistance to fire damage, and any creature that touches you or hits you with a melee attack must make a dexterity saving throw or take 1d10 points of fire damage. Additionally, while your halo is active, as an action you may make a melee spell attack as if you were casting a cantrip; this attack deals 1d10 points of fire damage. The damage of this attack increases to 2d10 at level 5, 3d10 at level 11, and 4d10 at level 16.

Ruinous Strike: You gain advantage when making melee attacks against inanimate objects, and you double the amount of damage you to objects.

Ruinous Decree: You can cast Shatter without using a spell slot. One you use this ability, you must take a short or long rest before doing so again.

PACT INFORMATION:

Dwarven legends depict Aym as the greediest dwarf queen who ever lived. Modern-day dwarves still spit at the mention of her name. Not long after Moradin first forged the dwarves, Aym arose as a great leader among them. Greed brought her to power, and greed consumed her while she ruled. Dwarves mined furiously in response to Aymís constant demand for more gems and precious metals, and her people became virtual slaves to their work. As onerous as Aymís rule was, however, all this mining greatly expanded the dwarvesí territory, and many dwarven clans grew quite wealthy. Jealous of the dwarvesí wealth and smarting from their conquests, a great horde of orcs, giants, and goblinoids banded into an army to assault Aymís kingdom. The dwarves fought bravely, but because their forces were stretched so thin across Aymís empire, they could not respond quickly enough to the hordeís concentrated assault on their capital. Legend has it that when the fires of the burning city reached her, Aym stood among a hundred wagons laden with gold that her servants had loaded in preparation for her flight. But so engrossed was she in counting the coins to make certain she didnít lose a copper that she didnít notice the danger until the fires began to melt the coins in her grasp. Rather than repenting her greed at the point of her death, Aym cursed Moradin for not protecting her, and in return, Moradin cursed her.

When summoning Aym, you may attempt to appeal to her immortal greed to win her favor. Providing 100 gp worth of gems, gold, or other valueables to Aym grants you advantage on your binding check. Aym takes these valueables, though she returns them when the bind is broken if you made a good pact with her.
Additionally, due to Aym's immense guilt at failing her people, any dwarf that binds Aym makes a good pact regardless of the binding check, though choosing to bind her would be considered a great insult to most dwarves.

If you make a poor pact with Aym, she influences your personality in one of the following ways:


Influence
Description


Flaw
I am incredably stingy and greedy, and I begrudge every coin or item of value that I or my group must give to another.


Bond
I feel an irresistable urge to make reparations to any dwarves I meet. If able, i will attempt to give a coin (copper, silver, gold, or platinum) to any dwarf you meet within 1 min of learning their name.




Edit: Minor Rules change.

The_Doctor
2015-09-11, 08:50 AM
Actually, Pale Blue Dot is already At-Will (unless a "per short rest" sneaked in there without my noticing). I'll up the damage on everything, add a duration on CoV, and drop the action on Golden Record.

Submortimer
2015-09-11, 08:51 AM
:
@Howling Resilience is kind of nice, but fairly limited in it's application I think. I'm not familiar with too many air spells that should trouble you this late in the game, but I didn't read to much into Elemental Evil.


It's the ribbon for Orthos. It's other abilities are much better to make up for that.



Howling Fury. Investiture of wind is a 6th level spell. I think that's a bit powerful to make a free passive ability, even by 20th level standards they don't get passive 6th level effects.


As I mentioned, I chose this over permanent displacement. While i agree that a 6th level spell at will could be OP, IoW isn't quite so bad. Essentialy, its a small part of Warding Wind, some Flight, and a 2d10 AoE attack rolled into one, none of which are really OP for a 17th level charcter.



Whirlwind Breath, as a damage spell, should have a damage output of 14d6 damage or amount with a similar average for an area effect. +25% if you remove the save for half. This is going by the DMG for constructing a spell.

I'm fine changing it. I went off of the old "1d6 per binder level" metric.

The_Doctor
2015-09-11, 08:59 AM
Changes made.

Wow, Mortimer, you're making vestiges super fast! Keep them coming!

Hey Submortimer, any comments on the Astronomer?

Submortimer
2015-09-11, 11:20 AM
Changes made.

Wow, Mortimer, you're making vestiges super fast! Keep them coming!

Hey Submortimer, any comments on the Astronomer?

Thanks, when I get inspired the content just kinda flows. Well, that, and I'm just updating old binder stuff to the new template, that makes it a lot easier :)

As for the Astronomer, it's not bad. A boost to damage, primarily just some extra blasting, with a rather amusing, if non canon, source. I agreed with much of what Zhan has already said, so there's not much in the way of mechanical changes I'd make to it.

The_Doctor
2015-09-11, 11:54 AM
Hey Mortimer, why don't you try to make a vestige of yourself?

Prince Zahn
2015-09-11, 11:57 AM
Hey Mortimer, why don't you try to make a vestige of yourself?

I'd rather if we have to stop everything to make vestiges of ourselves, that we each make a vestige of someone else. It would be a nice bonding excercise :3 they would get a specially labeled spot under Misc. Vestiges.

EDIT:To add to the challenge, I'd like to propose we limit designer vestiges to 5th level or lower. We have too many 9th level vestiges in the misc. Category to add ourselves.

If you feel you don't have enough info on a particular creator, feel free to ask a bunch of questions and be sure to answer any you get.

The_Doctor
2015-09-11, 01:22 PM
(I still think Anaximander should be a 9th level vestige.)



Zahn
Sealed Fate
4th level Vestige
PROFICIENCIES
You gain proficiency in Intelligence saving throws while bound to Zahn.
Sign: Zahn's seal becomes a huge tattoo on your back, roughly 1 foot in diameter.
Zahn's Power: While bound to Zahn, you have advantage on binding checks.
Zahn's Strength: Once per long rest, you can increase the damage die of one power you use that was granted by a vestige by one step (d4<d6<d8<d10), to a maximum of d10.
Fast Recharge: At any point while bound to Zahn, choose a single, expended feature you have that requires you to finish a short or long rest to use again, you gain an additional, single use of that feature, which expires the next time you take a short or long rest if not expended. You can not select the same feature twice for Fast Recharge while bound to Zahn. You can use this feature twice, once you have done so, you must complete a long rest before you can do so again. This feature does not allow you to have more uses available for any feature beyond the maximum amount detailed in it's description.
Zahn's Skill: When you make a pact with Zahn, choose one of the following features from the options below:

You may increase the range of one effect granted by a vestige by 15 feet.
You may increase the radius of one effect granted by a vestige by 5 feet.
You may increase the duration of one effect granted by a vestige by 1 round. (You can only do this if the effect already has a duration.)

Submortimer
2015-09-11, 02:08 PM
I mean, if i'm gonna make The Doctor as a vestige, I'd be hard pressed not to make him 9th level...

ImSAMazing
2015-09-11, 02:21 PM
I mean, if i'm gonna make The Doctor as a vestige, I'd be hard pressed not to make him 9th level...

You know what would be fun? To make a ImSAMazing as a Vestige :smallwink::smallbiggrin::smallcool:

Prince Zahn
2015-09-11, 02:36 PM
You know what would be fun? To make a ImSAMazing as a Vestige :smallwink::smallbiggrin::smallcool:

Heh, I'll get on that personally if you make a vestige for someone else involved in this, you have my word, SAMazing.:smallwink:


EDIT: don't worry about putting someone up at a lower level. It means more binders will be able to put it to use!:smallwink:

Also, I seem incredibly powerful.:smalleek: It's like I break every rule I try so hard to establish... Nice work! XD

ImSAMazing
2015-09-11, 03:05 PM
Heh, I'll get on that personally if you make a vestige for someone else involved in this, you have my word, SAMazing.:smallwink:


EDIT: don't worry about putting someone up at a lower level. It means more binders will be able to put it to use!:smallwink:

Also, I seem incredibly powerful.:smalleek: It's like I break every rule I try so hard to establish... Nice work! XD

I can give it a try. Who should I turn into a Vestige? Also is there a Vestige template?

Prince Zahn
2015-09-11, 03:14 PM
I can give it a try. Who should I turn into a Vestige? Also is there a Vestige template?
That's all I ask for:smallsmile:

Since Submortimer seems to be doing the Doctor, and I was already made a Vestige for, you have Spiriah, Submortimer, Scarce, and Anaximander to select from.

You can find my general template here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?430663-Prince-Zahn-s-Vestige-Codex-(5e-Binder)&p=19633792&postcount=2#post19633792). Scarce said he might make another template for combat vestiges, but I'm still waiting on that. I suppose he's still experimenting at this stage.

Submortimer
2015-09-11, 04:15 PM
Off topic, and maybe I'm late to the party on this, but I'm not a fan of the 'Fate' subclasses. In general, they're fine, perfectly serviceable, but I'd like to try my hand at designing three subclasses for this guy that maybe fit more in line with established Binder lore.

To the point, I'll be designing the Knight of the Seal (melee subclass), Anima Mage (spellcasting subclass), and the Occultist (enhancing binding). I'm also going to be stealing a lot from the warlock; those jerks stole our pacts from us, we can steal some stuff from them!

Submortimer
2015-09-11, 04:20 PM
Wow! A lot of things happened while I was gone:smalleek: I'm going to find a time to edit and address all these posts today so keep an eye on this post throughout the day.

@On the topic of influence I would like to remind everyone that these are essentially Personality Traits/Ideals/Bonds and/or Flaws, and need to follow proper formatting. this includes first person descriptions (i.e I am...; I can be... ; I don't like...) this is stuff a binder should have on his to his character sheet alongside his other Traits/ideals/flaws/bonds (perhaps attached with tape, or something?:smallconfused:) and should thus be in the same format. also - vestiges don't "require" or "demand" from a vestige in the same way the used to. instead, a Binder can choose to whether or not to act upon a vestige's influence with the prospect of earning Inspiration for good roleplaying. this is how it works in Out of the Abyss, to my understanding, and this is how it works for the 5e Binder.


This...I disagree with strongly. Being "under the influence" is supposed to be a bad thing, or at least an unpleasant one. Pact magic is inherently dangerous, and to take away that risk takes away a large amount of the flavor of the class.

Not only that, but why would it matter if you made a good pact or not if you could just choose to go against the vestige's influence? In fact, it seems more beneficial to make a POOR pact; granted, you can't suppress the sign, but that's paltry compared to getting an additional outlet for possible inspiration. In my eyes, it should be something like this:


If you fail your binding check, you still gain the powers of the vestige, but are also under it's influence. While you are under it's influence, you gain one Flaw, Trait, Ideal, or quirk associated with the vestige that you must adhere to; not doing so is highly dangerous. Every time you attempt to subvert or deny a bound vestige's influence, you gain one level of exhaustion. Once you gain 5 levels of exhaustion this way, you are rendered unconscious, and all vestiges you currently have bound breaks their bonds. All levels of exhaustion gained in this fashion are removed once the poorly-bonded Vestige is no longer bound.
Remember, vestiges are alien, unknowable creatures that should have taxing, mind altering effects on the people that allow them to ride along.

If you want it the way it is, that's fine; get rid of the binding check. There's no point to it otherwise.

Prince Zahn
2015-09-11, 04:27 PM
I feel Spiriah's playtest report would be better addressed if I discussed it in a new post:

Hey, I'm back! I've got a few more sessions of Binder gameplay under my belt, and am currently sitting at 9th level. A few things I've noticed/opinions I have:

- The Extra Attack is REALLY important if you plan to be a Binder in melee, to the point where we're still using it in my group despite the revision. A very large number of vestiges are melee-centric in one way or another, and I find myself needing the extra attack and occasionally Paimon's haste dance (which I'm quite fond of) to keep up with the other melee damage dealers. Binder shouldn't be as good in melee as a devoted melee class, sure, but if you're limited to one attack without vestige support you'll never come close to being an effective melee combatant without optimization. first of all, thanks for returning to us with feedback!:smallsmile:
Which subclass did you take?
Do you think the need for extra attacks could be alleviated by adding more damage-dealing features to vestiges?
If you had to choose one of the attacks for the Binder, which do you think is more important from a practical (and fun) perspective: the extra attack, or the Dance of death feature from the original Paimon?


- Binder ranged/spell damage also seems a little lacking to me, though it may be due to a lack of not-at-will damage powers. I have had great success with Amon's breath, however, especially when an invisible enemy decided to engage me in melee just as I got to full charge. Glad to hear more positive feedback from Amon:smallsmile:
I think some of us have already started looking into what we could do with ranged spell attack rolls. Nevertheless I shall keep an eye out for this in the future.:smallsmile:


- On a more enjoyment-related note, playing a Binder is really fun. It feels like playing a cleric or wizard in that you have to anticipate what you'll need to prepare for the coming day, but rather than spells you have a plethora of neat abilities you can mix and match (on a related note, the DM has dropped hints that we're going to be fighting a kraken or something similar, so if anyone feels like brewing up relevant vestiges, e.g. Shax, that would be helpful). Among other cool things I've done with the Binder, I landed Ipos's Rend on a vampire, killed it, and ripped out its spine. I have subsequently kept said spine, and am looking into using it as a magic item component. you hear that guys? Aquatic themed vestiges! We are officially a mission!:smallbiggrin::smallcool:

In you're campaign, do you get to use any Misc. Vestiges?
How strong would you say ipos is for his level on a scale of 1 to 5, where 1 is underpowered, 5 is really OP and 6 is Cheesy McMunchkin?

I'm really glad you enjoy the class so far! That's a sign of all our hard work starting to pay off.:smallbiggrin:

Another question: how do you find the class's level progression chart/chassis? Other than extra attack, are there any notes you would like to add on improving it (or any bugs you want to point to our attention?)


- @Zahn: Haven't failed a pact yet, though I've come close. Had to use a luck point once or twice, though (Yeah, I know, using Lucky to dodge bad pacts isn't very flavorful, but better safe than sorry). :eek:

What is this I don't even... You have nothing to be afraid of a bad pact. the only thing you absolutely have to show for it is the physical signs (I'd like feedback on those too, when we get there) if you don't want to play by a vestige's influence, there's no in-game penalties for not playing it, though I really think you should, even if just to earn a little more Inspiration.
But seriously, why on ATHAS are you wasting precious luck points to avoid a bad pact? Since I started playing Odťtte in a 3.5 game on these forums, I'm simply ANXIOUS to make a poor pact with a vestige and roleplay the consequences of that. I can't imagine why roleplaying a slightly different character every day, and driving your teammates up the wall as they try to wrap their heads around it, would be something you want to avoid?


[...]I'm a fan of the streamlined DCs, too, especially with bounded accuracy being as it is and preventing 3.5's really high DCs from being possible, especially with prof bonus not being added to bind checks. funny, you should be able to add your Proficiency Bonus to Binding checks.:smallconfused: I'll address that first thing in the morning.


- @Fellow playtesters: If you're like me and can't keep all your vestige features straight, consider doing what I did and making vestige cards by transcribing a summary of their abilities onto index cards. Allows for the bonus feature of allowing you to shuffle the deck and pick vestiges at random! I approve of this, and applaud Scarce for offering to get on that! Two thumbs up!

Keep going Spiriah! We're rooting for you!

Prince Zahn
2015-09-11, 05:03 PM
Off topic, and maybe I'm late to the party on this, but I'm not a fan of the 'Fate' subclasses. In general, they're fine, perfectly serviceable, but I'd like to try my hand at designing three subclasses for this guy that maybe fit more in line with established Binder lore.

To the point, I'll be designing the Knight of the Seal (melee subclass), Anima Mage (spellcasting subclass), and the Occultist (enhancing binding). I'm also going to be stealing a lot from the warlock; those jerks stole our pacts from us, we can steal some stuff from them! I've kind of been on this road with Anaximander before. It did not end well for either of us.
The awakened Binder is essentially an Anima Mage, retooled.
To a degree we did think for a while on a KoSS, but the idea was dropped in favor of other concepts. Also, I felt a need to innovate a bit :smalltongue: once I get the Warped Binder done, I'll revisit the other two subclasses, which I've (for the most part) left as Anaxi made them.
I'd rather we talk on this in PMs on the topic of subclasses, nothing personal to everyone else, I just prefer to manage this sort of thing independently from the communal posting rate. I'm struggling to keep up with it.:smalleek:


This...I disagree with strongly. Being "under the influence" is supposed to be a bad thing, or at least an unpleasant one. Pact magic is inherently dangerous, and to take away that risk takes away a large amount of the flavor of the class.

Not only that, but why would it matter if you made a good pact or not if you could just choose to go against the vestige's influence? In fact, it seems more beneficial to make a POOR pact, thereby getting an additional outlet for possible inspiration.insanity (which from what I understand is aa rule to the OotA storyline) is supposed to be a bad thing, too. Same with flaws. But you can't stop the game and force a player into roleplaying something s/he is opposed to, and expect him/her to enjoy him/herself. WotC seem to have thought this through. The new edition removed a lot of penalties for "poor character decisions" (on a behavior analysis perspective: "positive punishments" were removed, making them "negative reinforcements") in favor of rewarding proper action and roleplaying (Inspiration= used as "positive reinforcement" for deliberately acting out a less-than-desired influence.) Roleplaying your influence should be a bad thing, I agree. It can stir up a lot of problems for a careless binder's tale. But at the same time we are encouraging acting out a poor pact because of the drama it would cause. If a player is like me will be all "oh boy! a poor pact - now I get to role play all the downsides!" Then, as one might say, God bless.

I will, however, take action if I find out that one or more influences are encouraging Players to actively oppose the other players, or otherwise proves to be poisonous to the game's dynamics.

The_Doctor
2015-09-11, 07:14 PM
Well, Zahn, would you be so kind as to help balance yourself?

Also SAMazing, you haven't been here much, so based on my current knowledge I would be incapable of creating a vestige out of you.

Submortimer
2015-09-11, 07:35 PM
insanity (which from what I understand is aa rule to the OotA storyline) is supposed to be a bad thing, too. Same with flaws. But you can't stop the game and force a player into roleplaying something s/he is opposed to, and expect him/her to enjoy him/herself.

Of course you can. Thats why they're playing a BINDER. They know they're playing with fire, and that it will burn them from time to time; no different than enforcing a Paladin's Oath.



WotC seem to have thought this through. The new edition removed a lot of penalties for "poor character decisions" (on a behavior analysis perspective: "positive punishments" were removed, making them "negative reinforcements") in favor of rewarding proper action and roleplaying (Inspiration= used as "positive reinforcement" for deliberately acting out a less-than-desired influence.)


Again, see the paladin.



Roleplaying your influence should be a bad thing, I agree. It can stir up a lot of problems for a careless binder's tale. But at the same time we are encouraging acting out a poor pact because of the drama it would cause. If a player is like me will be all "oh boy! a poor pact - now I get to role play all the downsides!" Then, as one might say, God bless.


I hate to say it, but i think you put a bit too much faith in the eagerness of people to roleplay what is effectively an insanity. As we've seen, the natural reaction to making a binding check is to succeed at all costs.



I will, however, take action if I find out that one or more influences are encouraging Players to actively oppose the other players, or otherwise proves to be poisonous to the game's dynamics.

Well yeah, of course. Not even the stuff from 3.5 encouraged that.


I get that you want to remove downsides. Thats okay. What I. Saying is that we need to make the Binding check MEAN something. As of right now, all it allows you to do is supress the sign of a given vestige and ignore the *totally optional anyways* influence. Either we need to come up with a proper, concrete benefit to succeeding on that binding check (maybe gating an ability based on whether you made a good pact or not), or just get rid of it, since it serves no purpose.

Prince Zahn
2015-09-11, 08:19 PM
Zahn
Sealed Fate
4th level Vestige
Binding DC: 15
Sign: Zahn's seal becomes a huge tattoo on your back, roughly 1 foot in diameter. FTFY. Looks a little more aesthetic to more



PROFICIENCIES
You gain proficiency in Intelligence saving throws while bound to Zahn.first of all, I'm flattered.:smallredface: that being said, I would never trust a 4th level vestige with a saving throw proficiency. Surely you know this.


Zahn's Majesty: While bound to Zahn, you have advantage on binding checks. Minor nitpick. a quick Google search reads that the proper term is "(royal) highness", majesty is more appropriate if I was a king, which I am not.

Zahn's Strength: As long as you are bound to Zahn, all damaging abilities granted by Vestiges that are not limited by rests have their damage die increased by one step (d4-->d6--d8-->d10), to a maximum of d10. I failed my saving throw and am frightened by the thought of how this would interact with Amon's fire breath:smalleek: this will likely need to be nerfed.

Fast Recharge: When you finish binding your vestiges, choose one other vestige you are bound too. All abilities of that vestige that require a short rest instead require no rest, and ones that require a long rest instead require a short rest.how about:
FAST RECHARGE
At any point while bound to Zahn, choose a single, expended feature you have that requires you to finish a short or long rest to use again, you gain an additional, single use of that feature, which expires the next time you take a short or long rest if not expended. You can not select the same feature twice for Fast Recharge while bound to Zahn. You can use this feature twice, once you have done so, you must complete a long rest before you can do so again. This feature does not allow you to have more uses available for any feature beyond the maximum amount detailed in it's description.

Zahn's Skill: When you bind to Zahn, choose one:
Once per short rest, you may increase the range of one effect granted by a vestige by 15 feet.
Once per short rest, you may increase the diameter of one effect granted by a vestige by 5 feet.
Once per long rest, you may increase the radius of one effect granted by a vestige by 5 feet.list button is your friend, Doctor:smalltongue:
Also, if you can increase the radius(R) of an effect by 5 feet, why would you ever settle for increasing the diameter (=2R) by 5feet?
Zahn's Skill: When you make a pact with Zahn, choose one of the following features from the options below:
you may increase the range of one effect granted by a vestige by 15 feet.
you may increase the radius/diameter (choose 1) of one effect granted by a vestige by X feet.
???

Once you have chosen one of the options presented above, you can not choose a different one until you end and renew your pact with Zahn. Once you have used the ability you selected, you can not do so again until you have completed a short rest.

That's enough for me today, guys. I gotta sleep! After today I'm probably going to slow my posting rate down to accommodate a busy time of year, and because you guys are too fast for me right now. I gotta know my limits:smallredface:

Scarce
2015-09-11, 11:10 PM
On Aym:



PROFICIENCIES
While bound to Aym, you gain proficiency in medium armor.

Not convinced this works well with Savnok. Is it okay if the Binder gets proficiency with heavy armor at 7th level when he binds both Aym and Savnok? It strikes me that in 5e the ability to walk around in full plate is really a powerful class feature, compared to 3.5. I don't know if this means we should avoid giving medium armor proficiency until after then, or if we need to retool Savnok, but be aware that including this actually makes the class a great deal stronger.



Golden Halo: As a bonus action, you may surround yourself with a halo of fire. You gain resistance to fire damage, and any creature that touches you or hits you with a melee attack takes 1d10 points of fire damage. Additionally, while your halo is active, as an action you may make a melee spell attack as if you were casting a cantrip; this attack deals 1d10 points of fire damage. The damage of this attack increases to 2d10 at level 5, 3d10 at level 11, and 4d10 at level 16.

The attacker that is getting dealt damage should be able to make a Dex save against it. Also, for brevity's sake, turn that damage thing into just "You can cast the produce flame cantrip at will.

Other than that, superior work.




I get that you want to remove downsides. Thats okay. What I. Saying is that we need to make the Binding check MEAN something. As of right now, all it allows you to do is supress the sign of a given vestige and ignore the *totally optional anyways* influence. Either we need to come up with a proper, concrete benefit to succeeding on that binding check (maybe gating an ability based on whether you made a good pact or not), or just get rid of it, since it serves no purpose.
On one hand, I really like the idea of tying the Vestige's influence into the Flaw and Personality Trait components of 5e (in fact, that decision alone might have been the one that convinced me to join in on this project). On the other hand, Submortimer is totally right. Pact negotiation seems like it should carry a real mechanical risk.

I suggest we find a concise way of putting this mechanic, which fits well within the flavor of the class, and gate the 1/long ability of any vestige (or some other appropriately powerful ability, if the vestige has no once/long feature) if the binder fails his check.

Scarce
2015-09-12, 12:24 AM
Noone panic, but I have a new vestige which I intend as a new addition for the canonical vestiges:


Xanathar
The Eye
3rd Level Vestige

Antimagic Influence
You have advantage on checks made to resist conditions imposed by magical effects.

Ray of Flame
You can cast fire bolt at will.

Eyes of the Beholder
Xanathar offers you the power of his magnicient eye rays. When you complete a short rest, you may regain the use of one of these expended rays.

Slow Ray
You can cast the spell slow without expending a spell slot. After using this feature, you must complete a long rest before using it again.

Sleep Ray
As an action, you can select 1 creature you can see within 60 feet to make a Wisdom saving throw or fall asleep and remain unconscious for 1 minute. The creature awakens if it takes damage or another creature takes an action to wake it. This ray has no effect on constructs and undead. After using this feature, you must complete a long rest before using it again.

Fear Ray
You can cast the spell fear without expending a spell slot. After using this feature, you must complete a long rest before using it again.

Death Ray
As an action, you can make a spell attack against 1 creature you can see within 60 feet. On a hit, the creature takes 8d6 necrotic damage. After using this feature, you must complete a long rest before using it again.

It is well-known among vagrants and thieves that the Xanathar was one of most infamous beholders in history and was formerly the crime lord of the Xanathar Thieves' Guild. Xanthar was also known as The Eye, and it is unclear today which was his name and which was his title.

History remembers The Eye as a ruthless beholder with many eye tyrant rivals, each of whom fell before him in his quest for power. The first was the original guildmaster of the Xanathar Thieves' Guild, whom the Eye murdered and impersonated, taking the Guild and its secrets for himself. With the power of this guild, and centuries to grow his influence in Skullport, the Eye grew his reputation as one of the most feared crime bosses of the city. Expanding his empire to the trade of illicit goods and slaves, the Eye quickly earned the ire of another eye tyrant, Misker, the Pirate Tyrant.

At the height of its power, The Eye extended its control over all the beholders of Undermountain, forcing all those who refused to bow to him, including Misker, to the Underdark or the surface. As the centuries passed, The Eye grew older and his enemies grew more bitter. In spite of the disdain beholders hold for each other, Misker banded The Eye's rivals together to conspire how they might overthrow him, marking the single greatest harmonious confluence of beholders in history.

When at last retribution came, the beholders all but razed Xanathar's guild and destroyed The Eye, body and soul with dark magic known only to elder eyes.

When you make a poor pact with Xanathar, he influences your behavior in one of the following ways:

Personality trait: I demonstrate the pathological mind of a crime lord. I horde useful information, hold a grudge for every slight against me, and strike my enemies without warning or mercy. Laws are little more than a hindrance to be.

Ideal: I am the perfect creature of my kind, and no creature is my equal. I harbor immense resentment for other creatures' imperfections.

Spiriah
2015-09-12, 07:08 AM
I feel Spiriah's playtest report would be better addressed if I discussed it in a new post:
first of all, thanks for returning to us with feedback!:smallsmile:
Which subclass did you take? Took Unfettered for flavor purposes (My character's looking into a series of events that are causing planar instability, due to his brother getting flung into an unknown plane in a magic-related accident), but I haven't really found an opportunity to use the powers yet.


Do you think the need for extra attacks could be alleviated by adding more damage-dealing features to vestiges?
That's a possibility. I do think we need some more direct-damage features to make ranged/spellcasting vestiges viable, so that'd be a step in the right direction.


If you had to choose one of the attacks for the Binder, which do you think is more important from a practical (and fun) perspective: the extra attack, or the Dance of death feature from the original Paimon?The extra attack, simply because of the fact that it's not locked behind having a specific vestige bound. If it takes having one vestige in particular to make a melee build viable, I think that's a problem that goes against the idea of the Binder being about combining abilities you think are fun rather than binding the same vestige(s) every day because it's the most optimal and/or you're useless in a particular role without one of them.


you hear that guys? Aquatic themed vestiges! We are officially a mission!:smallbiggrin::smallcool:
I believe my next session is on Sunday, if memory serves, so if we can get some done before then, that'd help.


In you're campaign, do you get to use any Misc. Vestiges?
How strong would you say ipos is for his level on a scale of 1 to 5, where 1 is underpowered, 5 is really OP and 6 is Cheesy McMunchkin?Haven't asked about/attempted to use any misc. vestiges, though I'm sure I will eventually. Ipos is fairly well balanced, IMO, probably around a 2.5 to 3? I have a Robe of Stars, so the Planar Attenuation is nice, and the Flash of Insight is also very neat, though those two abilities aren't always relevant. Ipos's Influence is handy when you really need someone to get shoved by Ronove or blinded by Focalor or what have you, though that didn't prevent the vampire I was trying to push into a Guardian of Faith's radius from passing the save with disadvantage. It's also nice for trying to force things to burn Legendary Resistances.



Another question: how do you find the class's level progression chart/chassis? Other than extra attack, are there any notes you would like to add on improving it (or any bugs you want to point to our attention?)I like the Pact Augmentations. Born of Chaos has served me well thus far. Soul Guardian and the anti-mind control feature (It's Slippery Mind in the class table, but Adamant Mind in the description) are both nice for stopping stuff that could otherwise ruin your day.[/QUOTE]



[...] I can't imagine why roleplaying a slightly different character every day, and driving your teammates up the wall as they try to wrap their heads around it, would be something you want to avoid?I'll admit, I hadn't thought about it that way before. I think the luck point in question was because I rolled badly on Dahlver-Nar and wanted to avoid the SCALP TEETH, but I guess you're right that bad pacts aren't, well, all that bad? I think that now that I've sort of established my character's personality when he doesn't have spooky void ghosts in his brain, I'll save my points for more important things should I ever fail again.



funny, you should be able to add your Proficiency Bonus to Binding checks.:smallconfused: I'll address that first thing in the morning.Yeah, it just says it's a charisma check, doesn't specify prof bonus unless I'm just really bad at reading.


I approve of this, and applaud Scarce for offering to get on that! Two thumbs up!

Keep going Spiriah! We're rooting for you!
Thanks? Here's hoping I don't get murdered in the kraken fight, and that it decides to eat our Fighter after we drop Freedom of Movement on him so he can tear it apart from the inside!

The_Doctor
2015-09-12, 11:49 AM
@Zahn: I changed the name of Zahn's Majesty, gave Zahn's Strength a HUGE nerf, reworded Fast Recharge according to your suggestion, and revised his final ability. *phew*

Also, I forgot to post this, but one of the people I was talking about the class with had a thought. I said it probably wouldn't work, but I would post anyway.

"When renegotiating, could I unbind and then rebind the same vestige to ignore the long-rest requirement?"

Prince Zahn
2015-09-12, 02:14 PM
Of course you can. Thats why they're playing a BINDER. :smallconfused: That's a rather aggressive way of putting it, isn't it?


They know they're playing with fire, and that it will burn them from time to time; no different than enforcing a Paladin's Oath.
Influence is certainly not like the paladin's oaths, one functions on the inspiration system, one throws tenets of devotion in your face and threatens to take your class away from you if you don't behave. these are different levels of severity, and I would rather reward a player for behaving like a proper binder, than penalize said player for not liking the aftermath of his bad die roll. this is a design choice. the DM is more than capable of making a binder's life difficult if he/she fails the binding check. the physical sign would freak people out and cause trouble, and the unusual behavior contributes to that. I see no need to rub it in with mechanical punishment.

People are playing with the Inspiration mechanic anyway, It's efficacy has already been established. If we are to assume people will not play by the game's built in RP mechanic without a threat to kick them in the rear, then we can't say this adaptation is suitable for 5e, because it sure as heck won't feel like it is.


Again, see the paladin.
I saw the paladin. I read the part on breaking the oath multiple times. the answer is absolutely not. I refuse to take away a binder's class features for breaking character in a situation where such is called for. if you insist on punishing (crippling?) the player over not enjoying this less than desireable part of the binder, draft up a variant rule, PM it to me, we'll talk about it. and I'll post it up if it doesn't feel too extreme. but I will not force it upon every, single game that plays the class, as that would steer more players away from the class than it would draw them in. this is the last I will speak of such parallels between paladin oaths and Binder influence.



I hate to say it, but i think you put a bit too much faith in the eagerness of people to roleplay what is effectively an insanity. As we've seen, the natural reaction to making a binding check is to succeed at all costs.it's not faith, but I might accept the word "overreaction". I'd accept it if as a player I'm in the minority for being passionate about bringing up complications for the sake of inter-party drama.

what we've seen is 3 gamers thus far who were openly willing to playtest it: one DM who used the material and has yet to give us any report on it, and 2 players, one of which had an anxiety attack from having "SCALP TEETH" (which are very much concealable with a hat, @Spiriah, I recommend packing a disguise kit or extra "sign-concealing" accesories, which are a great idea for equipment I could add here. any thoughts on this, guys? :smallsmile:). ---and besides, what's so wrong about rewarding Inspiration for RPing a Binder's influence? It is a great, innovative mechanic to encourage roleplaying true to your character, (and, by extension, the vestiges you bind with.) Encouraging players to roleplay properly will naturally lead to them becoming better players in the long run. this is how inspiration works, and I stand by it.



Well yeah, of course. Not even the stuff from 3.5 encouraged that.


I get that you want to remove downsides. Thats okay. What I. Saying is that we need to make the Binding check MEAN something. As of right now, all it allows you to do is supress the sign of a given vestige and ignore the *totally optional anyways* influence. Either we need to come up with a proper, concrete benefit to succeeding on that binding check (maybe gating an ability based on whether you made a good pact or not), or just get rid of it, since it serves no purpose.
Influence does serve a purpose, Mortimer, but not the one you get with the methodology and spirit you expect it to enforce. A vestige's influence becomes part of the character for the duration of the pact: If you don't play true to your character, you shouldn't expect the DM to award you any inspiration for risks you could have taken, but didn't. Complicating and enriching the story with your inluence deserves recognition just as much as your default personality traits, ideals, bonds or flaws would, and that should be motivation enough.

Scarce
2015-09-12, 03:03 PM
I got another one! Again, this is intended to be a canonical vestige, since the character is extremely important to D&D lore.

Aoskar
The Flayed God
1st Level Vestige

Divine Influence
You can cast the cantrips message, sacred flame, and thaumaturgy at will.

Dimensional Leap
Aoskar has opened the doors of reality to you. As an action on your turn, you can teleport a distance up to half you movement speed to a location you can see. If you teleport into a space that is already occupied by an object or creature, you take force damage equal to the number of feet traveled and are shunted to the nearest unoccupied location.

Teleport Without Error
When you teleport, you arrive at your destination without error (though those teleporting with you may not.)

Protection from Evil and Good
You can cast the spell protection from evil and good without expending a spell slot. After casting this spell, you must complete a short or long rest before using it again.

Aoskar is perhaps the most infamous deity in Sigil; once coming close to calling that city home, now he is forgotten by nearly all, and those that do still know his name almost always know him only as a cautionary tale, a story of the fate that would befall all deities that would seek to unseat the Lady of Pain.

Though most records of Aoskar were lost in the Lady's destruction, it is well-known that he was once a lesser deity of Portals. He was quick to see the potential of the planar metropolis, even then known as the City of Doors, and began to enact plans to exploit from beyond its walls. Binder lore holds that he attempted this through his followers, who embedded short rituals to Aoskar into many of the city's portals. With time, his fellowship grew, and when the Temple of Doors was erected, almost half of the people of Sigil worshipped Aoskar though these rituals.

Aoskar's plan was to use the power of his followers to grant himself full-godhood, and more importantly, access to the city. When the Lady discovered this, her vengeance was swift and brutal. Overnight, the Temple of Doors and all those buildings for blocks around it were destroyed by a force unknown and unseen mid-sermon, all worshippers within those bounds killed in a single horrible instant. Aoskar vanished, responding to none, and it was not for centuries hence that his godcorpse was found in the Astral, head impaled with a multitude of blades.

Today, the rule follows from Aoskar's cautionary tale: "No Gods in the Cage."

When you make a poor pact with Aoskar, he influences your personality in one of the following ways:


Flaw: I become paranoid at the mention of gods or worship, shake nervously around tall women, and become catatonic at the sight of a cage.

Bond: I go out of my way to protect travelers who are far from home, though I am hesitant to protect women.

I think I'm gonna work on Kas, the Bloody-Handed, next. I'm not sure what level to put him at, though. He'll be very like Eligor and Andras, in that he's a pretty direct melee dude, so I'm thinking maybe make him 4th level, and make sure he gets Extra Attack.

Prince Zahn
2015-09-12, 03:06 PM
I got another one! Again, this is intended to be a canonical vestige, since the character is extremely important to D&D lore.


I always welcome more vestiges. For a vestige to be standard, it needs to have a vestige published by WotC in 3.5 edition (article vestiges are acceptable too, if you can make sure they come out balanced). could you send me links to your reference material?

EDIT: I know I said Article vestiges are okay, just please, for the love of all that is a pure and sacred, don't pick the infamous ones.

Scarce
2015-09-12, 03:24 PM
I saw the paladin. I read the part on breaking the oath multiple times. the answer is absolutely not. I refuse to take away a binder's class features for breaking character in a situation where such is called for.

Is that what you guys were talking about? I think the solution Submortimer put forward was that a binder cannot enjoy the full power of his vestige if he negotiates improperly. Thus only one feature should be gated. That makes sense and it encourages playing the binder mechanically in the same way that one would roleplay them.

From personal experience, it's not a significant punishment for a player to look weird, drawing attention and so forth, because pointing that out at the table and roleplaying it out for its consequences becomes repetitive quickly. (I've played monstorous PCs before and the subject of appearance consistently gets dropped after a little while, because I would always wear a cloak at all times, so the plot can move forward. After that decision, it started to seem weird that the DM forgot that people should be constantly noticing that I'm a monster-dude or too thickly covered to be seen. It's a no-win roleplay situation for the long-haul, and shouldn't be considered a mechanical impairment.)

Scarce
2015-09-12, 03:30 PM
I always welcome more vestiges. For a vestige to be standard, it needs to have a vestige published by WotC in 3.5 edition (article vestiges are acceptable too, if you can make sure they come out balanced). could you send me links to your reference material?

These characters were not published vestiges, but they are important published characters in D&D lore. Aoskar is extremely important to Planescape and our understanding of Sigil and the Lady (https://planescape-campaign.obsidianportal.com/wikis/the-legend-of-aoskar) and Xanathar has been a fixture in Skullport for huge swaths of D&D and is easily one of the most legendary beholders. (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Xanathar) These characters belong among the core vestiges.

Prince Zahn
2015-09-12, 03:40 PM
From personal experience, it's not a significant punishment for a player to look weird, drawing attention and so forth, because pointing that out at the table and roleplaying it out for its consequences becomes repetitive quickly. (I've played monstorous PCs before and the subject of appearance consistently gets dropped after a little while, because I would always wear a cloak at all times, so the plot can move forward. After that decision, it started to seem weird that the DM forgot that people should be constantly noticing that I'm a monster-dude or too thickly covered to be seen. It's a no-win roleplay situation for the long-haul, and shouldn't be considered a mechanical impairment.) in a campaign where pact magic being taboo is more of a focus, it will likely be more of an issue than that, and that is the default assumption for a pact magic incorporating setting, as far as I could tell with the books. The way you describe your experience doesn't show that it was a strong focus. The fact that pact magic is persecuted was apparently not important enough to your DM for him/her to pursue it. I don't know what to tell you about that. I'm playing my first real Binder experiments right now and I don't stop talking to my DM and the other players about what pact magic could offer to a setting, and feed my DM lots of suggestions on what he could do to get the feel of pact magic in there.
...
Was it at least fun?

Prince Zahn
2015-09-12, 03:48 PM
These characters were not published vestiges, but they are important published characters in D&D lore. Aoskar is extremely important to Planescape and our understanding of Sigil and the Lady (https://planescape-campaign.obsidianportal.com/wikis/the-legend-of-aoskar) and Xanathar has been a fixture in Skullport for huge swaths of D&D and is easily one of the most legendary beholders. (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Xanathar) These characters belong among the core vestiges.

I'll give them a good read over tomorrow. Your points sound reasonable to me, though.:smallsmile: just as long as we don't overdo it until we're done with the ToM vestiges, okay? I mean it, we still have a good amount of work to be done.

Could I trouble one of you to build a Shax for Spiriah? Bonus points if you could make it balanced as a 5th level or lower. Tomorrow is a holiday but there's a lot to be done first so I fear I won't make it in time for his/her next session.

Scarce
2015-09-12, 04:52 PM
Could I trouble one of you to build a Shax for Spiriah? Bonus points if you could make it balanced as a 5th level or lower. Tomorrow is a holiday but there's a lot to be done first so I fear I won't make it in time for his/her next session.

Sure, I'll have it up later tonight. (I wasn't going to work on Shax out of fear that someone else already was.)

Prince Zahn
2015-09-12, 05:05 PM
Sure, I'll have it up later tonight. (I wasn't going to work on Shax out of fear that someone else already was.)

Thanks!
I fixed some of the issues in the original post that the Doctor and Spiriah brought up. I'm calling it a night. For any additional quirks and bugs, you know how to reach me.

Scarce
2015-09-12, 05:41 PM
Shax
Sea Sister
1st Level Vestige

Bonus Proficiencies
While bound to Shax, you have proficiency with nets and tridents.

Word of the Waves
You can speak, read, and understand Aquan. You can also speak with aquatic animals as if using a speak with animals spell.

Spirit of the Storm
You can cast the cantrips gust, shocking grasp, and thunderclap.

Resistance to Electricity
While bound to Shax, you have resistance to lightning damage.

Aquatic
While bound to Shax, you can breathe both water and air. Additionally, you gain a swim speed equal to your movement speed and have advantage on all Athletics checks made to swim.

Fluidity of Movement
As a reaction when you take damage from a melee weapon attack, you can move 10 feet without provoking opportunity attacks.

Shax once ruled over storm giants as a goddess of the sea. She was born to Annam, the All-Father of all giant gods. But Annam, though he is a deity of knowledge, has profound blindspots in his omniscience, and he was unable to perceive Shax, who was born without his knowledge. But when Shax drove the storm giants from the sea to conquer other giant lands, Annam sent his son Thyrm to stop the problem and restore the Ordning.

Thrym, god of the frost giants, was eager to stop storm giant incursions into his followersí lands, so he picked up his axe and leapt into the sea. There he met his sister Shax for the first time. Thrym found her both beautiful and terrible. He offered to wed her if she would call the storm giants to return to the sea. Shax would have none of it, though, so the two fought. The battle was terrible, and storms raged for years. In the end Thrym won, beheading Shax with a clean blow of his axe, but not before she had ripped into his flesh with her nails. The strength of Shaxís spirit gave her the power to resist the pull of the Astral Plane, that graveyard of the gods, so she became a vestige. As for Thrym, he yet lives, but the pieces of his cold body that his sister removed have become icebergs that float in the sea as constant reminders of the storm giantsí debt to him.

When you make a poor pact with Shax, she influences your personality in one of the following ways:

Flaw: I am violently possessive, especially when it comes to territory.

Personality Trait: I believe things should be equitable, and demand compensation for any service I provide.

Submortimer
2015-09-12, 05:54 PM
Out of curiosity, did anyone have anything to say about Aym?

Scarce
2015-09-12, 06:25 PM
Out of curiosity, did anyone have anything to say about Aym?

Yup, I had a few comments. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19805181&postcount=142)

Submortimer
2015-09-12, 10:51 PM
@Scarce: Ha, I have no idea how I missed that.



Not convinced this works well with Savnok. Is it okay if the Binder gets proficiency with heavy armor at 7th level when he binds both Aym and Savnok? It strikes me that in 5e the ability to walk around in full plate is really a powerful class feature, compared to 3.5. I don't know if this means we should avoid giving medium armor proficiency until after then, or if we need to retool Savnok, but be aware that including this actually makes the class a great deal stronger.


I think this is fine. There are a number of ways even wizards can get heavy armor by level 7, I don't feel that it'll break too much.



The attacker that is getting dealt damage should be able to make a Dex save against it. Also, for brevity's sake, turn that damage thing into just "You can cast the produce flame cantrip at will.


Agreed on the first point, I'll change it. As for the attack, I would have just made it Fire Bolt, but neither that nor produce flame are melee spell attacks.




On one hand, I really like the idea of tying the Vestige's influence into the Flaw and Personality Trait components of 5e (in fact, that decision alone might have been the one that convinced me to join in on this project). On the other hand, Submortimer is totally right. Pact negotiation seems like it should carry a real mechanical risk.

I suggest we find a concise way of putting this mechanic, which fits well within the flavor of the class, and gate the 1/long ability of any vestige (or some other appropriately powerful ability, if the vestige has no once/long feature) if the binder fails his check.

Zahn and I are working on a reasonable comprimise, and I think we have the right idea.

The_Doctor
2015-09-13, 11:00 AM
@Scarce: If you're interested, you can look through the first thread for the compilation of non-TOM vestiges that Wizards published that I posted. Or you can have me just throw up the download link (again).

Prince Zahn
2015-09-13, 11:21 AM
@Scarce: If you're interested, you can look through the first thread for the compilation of non-TOM vestiges that Wizards published that I posted. Or you can have me just throw up the download link (again).

Funny, I just dug that file up yesterday:smalltongue:

I updated the Vestige Codex, I apologize if I made a mistake or forgot something( or if I mistaken the name credits, be sure to check that please!). I'm going out to dinner and I'll see you guys tomorrow. Thank you all for committing to this project. It makes me very happy.

The_Doctor
2015-09-13, 12:45 PM
On the subject of non-canon vestiges, can anyone offer suggestions on how we can bump my Emerald Lama (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19505718&postcount=135) up to Alpha stage? I really like the concept of it.

Submortimer
2015-09-13, 10:54 PM
To continue on with the Vestiges from the book, here's Zagan


Zagan
Duke of Disappointment
6th Level vestige
DC: 18
Seal:

Sign: You gain a lisp and canít help but speak in a sibilant manner, as if emulating a snake.

Manifestation: When Zagan begins to manifest, several snakes appear in a heap in his seal. The snakes then slither apart and rise upright along the lines of the seal. Then the crown of a head appears, with baleful eyes glowering. An ogrelike head slowly reveals itself, and after another moment, shoulders andarms appear, to which the snakes are attached. Zagan then uses his powerful arms to pull the rest of his body from the ground, revealing a long, serpentine form instead of legs. He reaches toward his summoner hungrily, his mouth gaping open in a feral grin, but the snakes on his body turn toward him and hiss, causing him to flinch backward. The brooding Zagan then addresses his summoner while calming the snakes. Binder scholars say that the snakes on his body are his most loyal lieutenants, who were killed on the night of Zaganís murder and dragged with his soul into a vestigeís existence.

PROFICIENCIES
Zagan grants you proficiency in Unarmed Strikes, and your unarmed strikes deal 1d4 bludgeoning or piercing damage.

Serpent's Bane: You gain advantage on attacks made against Yuan-ti, Snakes, or other snake-like creatures. Additionally, you gain resistance to poison damage and advantage on saving throws to resist poison based spells and effects.

Serpent's Senses: You gain the ability to detect creatures by smell. You gain advantage on any skill checks made to track a creature by smell. You also gain a limited form of blindsight: you can detect the presence of any living creature within 30'. This ability is disrupted by highly strong smells or any other condition which might block scent.

Serpent's Grasp: You gain the ability to grapple foes like a snake. This grants you a number of benefits:
- When you hit a large or smaller creature with an Unarmed Strike, you may use a bonus action to attempt to grapple it.
- You gain advantage on all attacks made against a creature you are grappling.
- You can use your action to Pin a creature you are grappling. Make another grapple check; if you succeed, both you and the creature you have pinned are restrained.

Serpent Crush: You can constrict a foe you have in your grasp. As a bonus action, you can automatically deal 2d8+Str bludgeoning damage to a foe you are grappling.

Serent's Terror: You can cause a creature to become highly fearful of both you and snakes/snake-like creatures. As an action, you affix your gaze upon a creature that you can see, forcing that creature to make a Wisdom saving throw; failure means that they are frightened by you, snakes, yuan-ti, or any other snake like creature. This effect lasts for one hour, or until you break your bond with Zagan.
Once you use this ability, you must take a short or long rest before you can do so again.

PACT INFORMATION:
When dwarves had yet to tunnel into their mountains and elves first walked beneath the boughs of trees, Zagan ruled over thousands. A lord in a great yuan-ti empire, he had power over hundreds of his own kind, who in turn controlled the lives of thousands of humanoid slaves. Zagan built himself up as a god to these slaves, using the yuan-ti as his emissaries to communicate with the uneducated masses over which he held sway. Over time, Zaganís power became so great that he actually aspired to become a god. He sought and fi nally discovered the means to his goal: a grand ceremony wherein he and his yuan-ti would gather together all his worshipers and slay them. At the appointed hour on the appointed night, Zagan collected all his people for a celebration of his glory. He could feel their worship empowering him, and with each passing minute he gained strength and felt his awareness widening. Then Zagan rang the gong that signaled the attack, and he and his yuan-ti servants fell upon the slaves, slaying them with wild abandon. At first Zagan thought it glorious, but then he felt his new powers begin to wane. With each life he crushed, he felt a bit more mortal. Zagan attempted to call off the ceremony, but in the chaos of the slaughter, the other yuan-ti could not hear him. Suddenly, a sword pierced Zaganís chest from behind. As he looked down at the bloody blade, a sibilant voice whispered in his ear, ďThe World Serpent wishes you well.Ē A cleric among his own people had tricked Zagan into ruining his chances at godhood on the very eve of his apotheosis. At a point somewhere between godhood and mortality, Zagan passed on into the void.

Zagan, Despite formerly being a Yuan-ti, hates his own kind and snakes in general. By presenting the dead body of a snake and/or a goblet full of snake or Yuan-ti blood, you can gain advantage on your binding check.
Additionally, Zagan still fancies himself a true deity. You may make a Performance, Persuasion, or Deception check (DC equal to the binding DC) and attempt to prostrate yourself before him, treating him as your god. Success grants you advantage on your binding check.

If you make a poor pact with Zagan, he influences your personality in one of the following ways:


Influence
Description


Flaw
I am overly aggressive and domineering towards all I meet.


Bond
I despise snakes and snake-like creatures. I will attack and attempt to kill any that I see, and will attempt to deface any depictions I encounter of them, regardless of the context.

Prince Zahn
2015-09-14, 05:18 AM
Hey guys! I'm back!:smallsmile:

Mortimer and I have been talking about the whole issue about playing on influence and it's lack of concrete enforcement, and while I still think we are making a mountain out of a molehill, I value everybody's concerns over the potential risk of problematic players. As part of today's agenda, I'm putting up this rule for discussion:
A pact, especially a poor pact, made with a vestige is seldom a pledge to a specific cause. rather, becomes a vital part of who you are, and you acquire the influence as your own personality trait, ideal, bond or flaw, and as such, is recommended for a DM to award Inspiration for roleplaying by it even when doing so would prove counterproducting. On the other had, turning a blind eye to the urge to express it becomes nearly identical to denying your own identity. As a binder, however, you know that resisting the influence of a vestige is not just denying yourself, but it is also a breach of a vestige's trust. and to win back it's good graces, you need to spend your short rest soul searching in isolation with regards to your actions and the pact you made, and express sincere regret for not holding your end, which, at the end of the short rest, you will restore your vestige's good graces.
If you resist a vestige's influence with a clean conscience, and make no conscious efforts to make amends with that vestige, then, at the DM's discretion, you might lose access to the Pact Augmentation feature associated with that vestige's pact, and you will have disadvantage on your Charisma check the next time you attempt to bind with that vestige.

on a scale of 1 to 5, with 1 being unacceptable and 5 being incredible, how do you rate this sidebar's means of making amends at a first glance?
using the same scale, how would you rate the penalties for resisting influence?
do you think the risks involved in not abiding by influence could affect a character's interest in playing a Binder?
how is the wording for this rule? Do you have any suggestions for improving it?
do you think this rule is better placed as an official rule on the front page, or as a variant rule that should be used as needed?
overall, what do you think of this little sidebar?

Submortimer
2015-09-14, 09:17 AM
A pact, especially a poor pact, made with a vestige is seldom a pledge to a specific cause. rather, becomes a vital part of who you are, and you acquire the influence as your own personality trait, ideal, bond or flaw, and as such, is recommended for a DM to award Inspiration for roleplaying by it even when doing so would prove counterproducting. On the other had, turning a blind eye to the urge to express it becomes nearly identical to denying your own identity. As a binder, however, you know that resisting the influence of a vestige is not just denying yourself, but it is also a breach of a vestige's trust. and to win back it's good graces, you need to spend your short rest soul searching in isolation with regards to your actions and the pact you made, and express sincere regret for not holding your end, which, at the end of the short rest, you will restore your vestige's good graces.
If you resist a vestige's influence with a clean conscience, and make no conscious efforts to make amends with that vestige, then, at the DM's discretion, you might lose access to the Pact Augmentation feature associated with that vestige's pact, and you will have disadvantage on your Charisma check the next time you attempt to bind with it.

I feel that this might be too wordy, but it does get the point across. IMO, we should change the wording of the class feature to read as such:


When you make a poor pact with a vestige, you still gain the Vestige's abilities, but you are also under it's influence; it attempts to exert more control over you in exchange for the power it gives. You gain one flaw/trait/ideal/bond as specified for the specific vestige.
While a vestige may attempt to exert control over you, you may resist it, though not without cost. Any time where you act in direct opposition to your vestige'so influence, you immediately lose the pact augmentation for that bound vestige for the duration of your pact, and you have disadvantage on the next binding check you make with that vestige. You may attempt to appeal to your vestige and make amends: you must take a short rest, during which you cannot do anything else except confer with your vestige. If you do so, you gain back the augmentation.

Then, put the stuff about DM granting inspiration in the sidebar.

Prince Zahn
2015-09-14, 09:48 AM
I feel that this might be too wordy, but it does get the point across. IMO, we should change the wording of the class feature to read as such:



Then, put the stuff about DM granting inspiration in the sidebar.

My problem with that is that it could easily be overlooked. If it has to be a rule, I'd rather it stood out.

The_Doctor
2015-09-14, 09:51 AM
on a scale of 1 to 5, with 1 being unacceptable and 5 being incredible, how do you rate this sidebar's means of making amends at a first glance? I would say 4. A bit wordy, as Mortimer pointed out, but otherwise great.
using the same scale, how would you rate the penalties for resisting influence? I would say 3. I believe the 3.5 rules gave strong incentives to roleplay a vestige. And for another thing, suppose you just needed the abilities of that vestige for the duration of one adventure, and never again? Or you waited so long that the DM forgot?
do you think the risks involved in not abiding by influence could affect a character's interest in playing a Binder? Possibly. I think some would be turned off by it, whereas others would love the challenge of roleplaying and would leap to do so.
how is the wording for this rule? Do you have any suggestions for improving it? I like Mortimer's version.
do you think this rule is better placed as an official rule on the front page, or as a variant rule that should be used as needed? This should be official. No doubt.
overall, what do you think of this little sidebar? Pretty neat, Zahn!

Now that I've answered your questions, answer mine:

On the subject of non-canon vestiges, can anyone offer suggestions on how we can bump my Emerald Lama (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19505718&postcount=135) up to Alpha stage? I really like the concept of it.

Submortimer
2015-09-14, 10:04 AM
My problem with that is that it could easily be overlooked. If it has to be a rule, I'd rather it stood out.

Only so much as inspiration already is; when it comes to that, only about half remember to use inspiration at all, let alone for a given class.

Really, how I'm looking at this is from the perspective of the old book, and how this would look in a new Tome of Magic:

- Most of the hard rules, the crunch, was in the class description.
- The Roleplaying aspects (bits about playing up your influence and not allowing the influence to ruin the game) were all in the sidebar: still right there, but off to the side so they didn't inhibit understanding of the hard rules.

All in all, I feel that this is a solid change, and makes the binding check an important part of the binder's daily regimen.

Prince Zahn
2015-09-14, 10:16 AM
Now that I've answered your questions, answer mine:

Good gods that vestige again...
I have notes compiled, but I have company over. Please have patience.

Submortimer
2015-09-14, 10:17 AM
*Snip*

So, a couple points:

ē while hashing out these rules with Zahn, I realized that the negatives for ignoring your influence were a -1 to most checks: annoying, but not deadly. This is pretty much the same as what we've done: you only get augments if you're a very skilled binder or if you play by the rules. If you don't, the vestige withholds something. What this does is gives real incentive to binding low level vestiges even at level 20, and makes sense from a lore perspective: You want the powers of Orthos, the original vestige, sovereign of the Howling dark? You better be really good at binding or be ready to talk only in a whisper.

ē Emerald Lama is VERY strong. I don't know what the story behind it is, but it seems to be a little all over the place. Also, the DC is too low per the Table at the top of the index. If you'd like some help cleaning him up, send me the story info and I can work on it on my days off this week.

The_Doctor
2015-09-14, 01:37 PM
Actually, I wrote that DC before the standard table was written, so ignore that DC.

I actually first found it in the Call of Cthulhu's Malleus Monstrorum; let me dig up my PDF and copy the info.

Submortimer
2015-09-14, 03:05 PM
Here he is...The Doctor.


The Doctor
The Mad Man with a Box
9th Level vestige
DC: 25

Seal:http://fav.me/d5fw713

Sign: If checked, your heart appears to beat twice as fast as normal (in actuality, you have a second heartbeat), your body temperature drops dramatically (though you suffer no ill from this), and your fashion sense becomes highly questionable. regardless of the outfit you are wearing, you will find yourself wearing some bit of signature clothing (a fez, a long scarf, a bowtie, an entirely-too-loud suit) in a way that it cannot possibly be hidden.

Manifestation: A faint, odd, grinding sort of noise begins to emanate from the circle, as if some sort of interdimensional magic transport was trying to move with it's parking brake on. The noise is faint at first, becoming louder and louder as the image of a tall, blue, rectangular box slowly pulses in to view. Moments after the box becomes remarkably solid, a man springs forth from the doorway, and introduces himself to the binder as The Doctor. He applauds the summoner's tenacity and skill in contacting him, and apologizes for being late, as he recounts some sort of conquest or adventure he had just been on. The names and places he mentiones are always assumed to be real, in one reality or another, but never matches anything in the summoner's world. The Doctor then states that he has to "Pop off for a bit" and asks if the binder could "look after the old girl for a while". He then hands the summoner a small, golden key, walks off a couple of steps, and the turns back around saying "oh yes, you'll likely need this!" and hands the summoner an odd, metallic wand. He then walks off though the darkness, and once out of sight vanishes completely.
Astute binders notice that each time The Doctor is summoned, he looks like a different man(and, every so often, a woman); Hardly ever ginger, though.

PROFICIENCIES
The doctor grants you no additional proficiencies.

Sonic Screwdriver: You gain the use of The Doctor's Sonic Screwdriver. This grants you two primary benefits
- You may cast the Knock spell at will
- As an action, You can make a ranged spell attack that deals 4d10 Sonic damage to a single target. You may make this damage non-leathal, if you so choose.

Though these are the two primary abilities, The Doctor encourages the binder to "experiment": using the sonic Screwdriver on an object may have unintentional or surprising results.


TARDIS: You gain access to The Doctor's magic blue box, which he calls the TARDIS. It's much bigger on the inside.
- As an action, you may summon or dismiss it with the Golden Key. It has the same functionality of Mordekainiens Magnificent Mansion, though the insides are quite alien.
- You and all of your travelling companions are constantly under the effect of a Tongues spell.

Wibbly Wobbly: You gain a measure of control over the fabric of time and space. You may cast Haste or Slow without using a spell slot. After you do so, you must take a short or long rest before you can do so again.

Timey Wimey: You may cast the spell Time Stop without using a spell slot. Once you use this ability, you must take a long rest before you can do so again.

Gallifreyan: You take on a gallifreyan's alien physiology. You can comfortably survive without food or water (though you can still eat and drink), can survive in temperatures of 300 F to -150 F, and you cease to age for as long as you remain bound to The Doctor. You also gain resistance to lightning damage, and your internal organs rearrange to such a degree that you have a 50% chance to turn any critical hit against you into a normal hit.

PACT INFORMATION:


The Doctor: "C'mon, then! The Doctor will see you now!"
Atraxi: "You are not of this world."
The Doctor: "No but I've put a lot work into it."
Atraxi: "Is this world important?"
The Doctor: "Important? What's that mean, important? Six billion people live here, is that important? Here's a better question: is this world a threat to the Atraxi? Oh come on, you're monitoring the whole planet! Is this world a threat?"
Atraxi: "...No."
The Doctor: "Are the peoples of this world guilty of any crime by the laws of the Atraxi?"
Atraxi: "...No."
The Doctor: "Okay. One more, just one: is this world protected?"
Atraxi: [views footage]
The Doctor: "You're not the first to have come here. Oh, there have been so many. And what you've got to ask is, what happened to them?"
[The Doctor steps through the footage]
The Doctor: "Hello. I'm the Doctor. Basically. Run."

The Doctor occupies a remarkable, if not exactly unique, position amongst vestiges, insomuch as he's not really a vestige at all. The Doctor appears to be just a man (A Gallifreyan, to be precise), and seems for all the world to be nothing more than an odd, if immortal, alien traveler with an intriguing collection of artifacts. This is more or less true, and yet what he is is merely but a fraction of his overall presence; WHO he is is far more important.
The Doctor is one of the last of the Gallifreyan people, those who fancied themselves the Time Lords, still alive and on this side of existence; the remainder having been banished to a place even beyond the vestiges. He is a consummate and eternal traveler, always drifting between planes, worlds, and throughout time itself. The pathways which he uses to make these journeys intersect and flow through the void space of the vestiges, and as such he is able to answer the call of one who might need his help. Though his inherent power seems to be low (he is not some god thing, able to rewrite reality on a whim), he has trumped nearly every enemy who has crossed his path though a combination of bravado, ingenuity, sheer luck, and the dizzying intellect of a being well into his 15th millennia of life. Armies, kings, angels, demons, gods...all who'said hearts hold true evil will fall before the might of The Doctor...

Of course, unless there are fish fingers and custard. Then, saving the world will have to wait a moment.

The Doctor appreciates friendly gestures and warm welcomes. He also appreciates delicious, if sometimes bizarre food. You gain advantage on your binding check if you afford him the full measure of your hospitality, treating him as a friend rather than a tool. As well, Offering him a gift of "Something he hasn't seen before" generally does the trick.

The doctor will always make a good pact with a creature who has red hair. He's always wanted to be a ginger.

If you make a poor pact with The Doctor, he influences your personality in one of the following ways:


Influence
Description


Bond
I am insatiably curious about every new place I go, and I have overpowering wandelust. I am also highly friendly with nearly every person I meet.


Bond
I cannot abide the pain or suffering of innocent people or my fiends, and I will fight with every breath to end or prevent it. As well, I will not kill if it can be helped at all; you'd be surprised what you can live through, though.




(He's done now. I obviously took a lot from the 11th doctor for this, but most of what's here should apply to any incarnation of our favorite time lord.

I'm also going to do The Master, if anyone is interested)

The_Doctor
2015-09-14, 03:16 PM
Hah, thanks. Though some abilities aren't finished, all seems well thus far.

You should add for the sonic that none of the abilities work on wood.

Also, why snakes?

Submortimer
2015-09-14, 03:31 PM
Hah, thanks. Though some abilities aren't finished, all seems well thus far.

You should add for the sonic that none of the abilities work on wood.

Also, why snakes?

I thought about the wood bit, and left it off. Far more objects in D&D are going to be wood than your average doctor who episode, I thought it might gimp the ability too much.

Also, why does it always have to be snakes?

Actually, it's just copy/paste issues. I copied format from Zagan, and didn't change it yet.

Prince Zahn
2015-09-14, 07:16 PM
Okay, now that I have a little wiggle room to breathe, I plan to deal with a lot of points tonight so expect multiple posts. I will not answer your replies to them tonight, however, because it's late, but you know me, I get to everything sooner or later :smallwink:

Made the change in the OP, with respect to everyone's wishes. I'd have love to hear what Scarce has to say about it as well, I trust he would have a fresh and insightful perspective into how it was carried out.
I'm not convinced about investiture of Wind as an at-will for any level. Even if it can be broken down to multiple abilities, it becomes up as a lot of abilities, I'd reckon that how things are now, you would have to give up on another, important feature of you insist on keeping it, in which case I'd like you to mention the supplement source material (Elemental Evil Player's Companion) and the chapter for reference. Otherwise, Please either choose 1 or 2 of the IoW options and build on it, or choose a lighter feature all together. The concept of allowing a 6th level spell to be used at will At any level is kind of crazy to me, it would require a lot effort to make it workable.

I think @Armor Proficiency works in a fair dynamic between Aym and Savnok. By my logic, we ought to encourage combinations between otherwise analogous vestiges. A non-dwarven Binder who does not wish to rely on Aym for MAP would need to either invest in the moderately armored feat or multiclass. Difficult costs, but it's up to the player to decide if the autonomy would be worth it. That being said, let's strive for no more medium armor proficiencies below 6th level, but by then it should be irrelevant as Savnok is the Vestige you go for to master armor. Which reminds me, dwarf Binders may be iconic, As Morden appears multiple times in the Tome of Magic. (and he, too, enjoys using Amon like our playtesters :smallwink:
I'd say Aym is pretty well built as she is. However, let's keep material sacrifices for advantage on a Charisma check to minimum, please. I can understand with Sum, though.
. two more things -first person narrative for influence, just like PHB traits/ideals/bonds/flaws: Personality Trait: "I have become stingy and greedy lately, good luck getting even a copper coin from me."
Ideal: "Greed. money is power, to spend it means relinquishing my advantage."
Personality Trait: "I am by far more generous towards dwarves than to members of other races." Simple, perhaps, but we don't need more than that.
Also: I would rather we refrain from giving flaws using vestiges of 2nd level or lower. The Binder's proverbial training wheels come off once he gets access to 3rd level vestiges, But I don't want to have potential players thinking twice about playing the class and taking certain vestiges until they are commited to the class, and are more comfortable playing an influence. Feel free to play with traits, ideals and bonds to your hearts content, but please leave flaws to the second tier of play and up (levels 5-20)

As I said, thank you for the compliment, but you know I don't trust 98% of vestiges with a save proficiency.
Other than that, I sent you some points on what you can do to improve it. I also need Pact Information.
this one i a little scattered O.O I'm surprised, Scarce!

Sleep could afford to be a short rest. at the level you get Xanathar, it won't be as useful unless you usually fight hordes of low CR monsters.
Death Ray is too powerful for it's level. I'd make it a ranged spell attack, 6d12 or similar average damage (=38.5 or so, if you want to look around on anydice), nothing happens on a successful save.
Influence: all the paranoia and hatred stuff may be important to the concept, but it's poisonous for party dynamics on both the short and long run. Perhaps try to focus on other traits you'd expect from a beholder, like narcissism, being manipulative, or a drive for more power and control (we don't get many ideals or bonds as influences, do we? nevertheless, please change or tone down the influences so that they can't tear the group apart. that's not what a flaw should be about.
A little more pact information on Xanathar would be most helpful. He really is an interesting figure, ain't he?:smallsmile:

I really like vestige, despite having no emotional attachment to the setting he is from, for some reason. Though he is 1st level, he has features that really are useful for later levels, when charisma saves, and teleportation spells come into play. I want to raise him to alpha stage but I fear I'm rushing into it. I'm thinking make Protection from turn to dispel evil and good circa 10th level, and provide it twice between rests. I think after that it's great! I'm impressed.:smallsmile:
how many times have I wished I had fluidity of movement...
Also quite nice. I think, however, that you could use another defensive ability. Something rest-fueled that could contribute to keeping you alive at early levels. you actually made me like this vestige, though. Well done!
Not using Gate will go a long way towards balancing your vestige. Don't be offended, but truth be told it doesn't matter to me if it is thematically appropriate, Gate is a very powerful, very controversial spell with lots of room for dangerous shenanigans. That even at 20th level knocks the Binder out of balance completely. I hope everyone is reading this because It's also why I Don't want anybody dropping a Zcerryl on me. I do not want a powerful summoning vestige in my Vestige Codex.

TL; DR: pick a different spell.
@EotL: I don't agree to permanent access to people's minds, I don't agree that anything any vestige grants you should be permanent. Memories and access to such should leave with the vestige.
@The Third eye ability does not have a duration. Please fix that.
@Mandala: there should be a way to turn this off. Seriously.:smalleek:
@Pact information: be sure to add some, including an influence. But be sure you don't give him stuff that poison the party dynamics. Look for "fun" characteristics to play at the table, don't make an influence that can tear the party apart, even if they can make things difficult.

Without pact information and legend, it won't reach alpha. Also: misc Vestiges should have additional information that provides context from their source, As I can be pretty dumb about referrences to fiction or movies, and many other means of media. When writing about your more eldritch vestiges I hardly know what to say.

(last one for tonight!) first time reading the 5e version.:smallsmile: it's one of my favorite vestiges in concept, so don't disappoint me now, Mortimer!
Back in the first thread, I wanted to wrap a Binder subclass around turning into a snake like monstrosity. This eventually evolved into the Warped Binder. (seriously? You don't like any of the subclasses? Not even a little bit? What don't you like about them? TELL ME!!!!!)
@Serpent Senses what's the difference between adding your proficiency bonus to something and being proficient with it?:smallconfused:
As a rule of thumb, I don't approve of abilities that let you add proficiency bonus to skills for vestiges under 7th level, and no save proficiencies for vestiges under 8th, (by the way, I won't allow a Binder to have all 6 saving throws within his reach, if I ever catch on that being possible.) it might sound a bit extreme, no skill proficiencies until level 14. But it's not. If the Binder can have 5 vestiges at a time, each one granting 1 skill proficiency or a saving throw, or expertise (which is a pretty valuable resource for skill-focused classes, I don't let my crew use it either so they don't leave the rogue in the dust!). It all creeps up quickly. If you want to give the Binder an edge at a skill or save, you will need to be a little creative: advantage on specific uses of the skill, open up a new use for the skill, or make an excuse for the Binder to roll Charisma (Perception) instead of a Wisdom (Perception) check. Just a few of the things you could do, but you're going to need to be creative when working on skills for vestiges. Don't take it to heart, There's no vestige homebrewer here that I didn't tell this too. Ask anyone!:smalltongue:

Hold your horses, before you reply to all this guys, I got a little something more for you to PEACH!

Prince Zahn
2015-09-14, 07:25 PM
I don't know if I made it better or worse, but all I want is your honesty!

LERAJE (http://www.fromoldbooks.org/Mathers-Goetia/pages/014-Seal-of-Leraje/014-Seal-of-Leraje-q100-1378x1357.jpg)
The Green Herald
2nd Level vestige:
DC: 12
Sign: Your skin appears sickly and Pockmarked.
Manifestation:

PROFICIENCIES
Weapons: Shortbow, Longbow

PRECISE SHOT
Leraje guides your arrows through harsh conditions. Treat wind conditions as one step more favorable when determining how it affects your ranged weapon attacks (If desired: Strong wind is treated as Light, and Light wind is treated as none for you). You can make an attack with a bow when the wind conditions would otherwise make it impossible, (such as a tornado) with disadvantage on the attack roll.

MASK OF THE WILD
You can attempt to hide even when you are only lightly obscured by foliage, heavy rain, falling snow, mist, and other natural phenomena. In addition, if you are a wood elf, you gain advantage on Dexterity (stealth) checks when lightly or heavily obscured by natural phenomena.

LERAJE'S QUIVER
While you are bound to Leraje, you can draw ammunition from her endless, quasi-real quiver. You can ignore the Ammunition property when wielding a shortbow or longbow, And can add your Charisma Modifier your damage rolls when firing from such bows. Starting at 9th level, when you roll a critical hit on a ranged weapon attack, you can deal the extra damage from the critical hit on all creatures within 5 feet of your target.

FIGHTING STYLE
You adopt the following style of fighting as your specialty. You can't take a Fighting Style option more than once, even if you later get to choose again.


ARCHERY
You gain a +2 Bonus to attack rolls you make ranged weapons.

NEW MOON ARROWS
You can imbue 1d4 arrows you touch with a silvery coat that sheds bright and dim light as a candle, turning them into new moon arrows for 1 minute. Until the duration expires or until you use the arrows to attack, Any attack that hits when using a New Moon arrow deals an additional 2d8 Radiant damage. Any Shapechanger struck by a Full Moon arrow must make a Constitution Saving Throw. If it fails, it instantly reverts to it's original form and can't assume a different form for 1d6 rounds. Once you have used this feature, you can not use it again until you finish a short or long rest.

PACT INFORMATION:
(Legend WIP to make it briefer!)

Tales of Leraje's prowess with the bow and arrow exist to this day, although other great heroes and deities are now praised her deeds, turning her tale into words of heresy among elvenkind. Though pact magic treatises maintain that a great elven god called upon Leraje to be his first herald among mortals. She taught the elves how to make and use bows, though none could come close to matching her talents. Legend holds that she slain Thessala, the goddess of hydras, by shooting a single Arrow through all one thousand of her heads, thereby causing her children, the hydras, to be dull and crude for the rest of eternity.

One night, When Leraje saved the Elf deity's lover from an bloodthirsty weretiger, before the woman fell to corruption and rose to divinity herself, the woman praised Leraje for her skills, claiming that no elf nor even their deity could shoot an arrow as fast and as precise as the valiant herald. Leraje beamed under the compliment, and the bemused lord of the Elves challenged Leraje to an archery duel to settle the matter once and for all. When his herald agreed to the challenge, the deity declared their target: her heart.

The elven god expected his servant to realize the error of her pride and yield the contest, but she instead brought up her bow, and aimed it at her master, and pulled back the string. Though surprised, the deity raised his own bow and fired at her at the same moment Leraje released her bowstring, aiming not at the god but at the arrow heading that sped toward her heart. The two Arrows met point to point midair as Leraje's Arrow ricocheted back, piercing Leraje's heart before her master's arrowhead even touched her chest. As punishment for wasting her life for the sake of her stubborn pride, the Elven Deity banished Leraje's soul from the heavens and the earth.
If you make a poor pact with Leraje, he influences your personality in one of the following ways:



Influence
Description


Personality Trait
As of late, I am too timid to speak my mind, nor to jump to conclusions.


Personality Trait
I feel an unshakable sense of guilt when around elves, and other elven blooded creatures.


What do you think guys? Is this a step in the right direction towards Alpha stage?

Submortimer
2015-09-14, 07:54 PM
@Zahn, let me explain my reasoning for a few things:
- adding your proficiency bonus to a skill check is not the same as having proficiency in that skill. In the case of zagan, it is for a very specific subset of checks (tracking via scent), not all survival checks. Limited in scope, yet still fits the vestige. This should be an allowable bending of the "no skills" rule.

- vestiges from the ToM have the same influences they had from the original book, in most cases not even edited. I try to keep it to that flavor as much as possible.

Prince Zahn
2015-09-14, 08:08 PM
@Zahn, let me explain my reasoning for a few things:
- This should be an allowable bending of the "no skills" rule. I strongly disagree with the reasoning behind this.I don't want my binder to add proficiency bonus to tons of things, and this is no different to me. Please respect that and avoid it.

By the way, I asked not to make designer vestiges above 5th level, why do you go against my wishes and make the doctor a ninth level vestige?and don't go telling me it's not the same doctor, we all know that whom the Vestige is dedicated for is the same inspiration for one of my teammates' username, and is commissioned too conveniently after we spoke about making staff vestiges..


- vestiges from the ToM have the same influences they had from the original book, in most cases not even edited. I try to keep it to that flavor as much as possible. I have no problem with following the book, Mortimer, but not to the last letter. Changes need to be made, abilities need to be added and removed, and among other things this isn't just a conversion, we need to innovate as well. I expect that much from everyone.

Submortimer
2015-09-14, 10:06 PM
Made a few edits to my previous vestiges, they should be a bit better balanced/worded properly now.

Scarce
2015-09-15, 08:06 AM
Great work (one of my favorites so far!)



Serpent's Bane: You gain advantage on attacks made against Yuan-ti, Snakes, or other snake-like creatures. Additionally, you gain resistance to poison damage and advantage on saving throws to resist poison based spells and effects.

Just a wording thing: I would put the last sentence as "You gain resistance to poison damage and you have advantage on saving throws against being poisoned."



Serpent's Senses: You gain the ability to detect creatures by smell. You gain advantage on any skill checks made to track a creature by smell. You also gain a limited form of blindsight: you can detect the presence of any living creature within 30'. This ability is disrupted by highly strong smells or any other condition which might block scent.

Does this apply to all creatures? Constructs too?



Serpent Crush: You can constrict a foe you have in your grasp. As a bonus action, you can automatically deal 2d8+Str bludgeoning damage to a foe you are grappling.

I would change this to dealing the 2d8+Str when you Pin, to incentivize using Pin.



Serent's Terror: You can cause a creature to become highly fearful of both you and snakes/snake-like creatures. As an action, you affix your gaze upon a creature that you can see, forcing that creature to make a Wisdom saving throw; failure means that they are frightened by you, snakes, yuan-ti, or any other snake like creature. This effect lasts for one hour, or until you break your bond with Zagan.
Once you use this ability, you must take a short or long rest before you can do so again.

Seems powerful, but it's a 6th level vestige, so whatever.

Other than these nitpicks, really excellent work!

Scarce
2015-09-15, 08:54 AM
I've got Kas, but I'm really not sure if it should get Extra Attack. My instincts tell me that if Kas does, Andras should get Extra Attack too. I would love some feedback on power level right now.

Kas
The Bloody Handed
5th Level Vestige

Bonus Proficiencies
While bound to Kas, you are proficient with longswords and shortswords.

Black Blade
As an action, you can summon Kas's black blade to your hand. The Black Blade is a magical longsword, and can deal either slashing or necrotic damage (your choice). You can add your Charisma modifier to damage rolls with the Black Blade. The blade vanishes if it ever leaves your grasp.

Undead Reaper
When you hit an undead creature with a melee or ranged weapon attack, you ignore any damage resistances it might have.

Kas's Protection
When a creature rolls a critical hit against you, roll a d20. On an 11 or higher, the attack still hits but does not deal critical damage.

Fluent Liar
If you roll less than 10 on a Deception check, you may treat your roll as a 10.

Blinding Strike
When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can force the target to make a Constitution saving throw. On a failed save, the target is blinded until the end of your next turn. After using this ability, you cannot do so again until you complete a long rest.


That Vecna, Master of All that is Secret and Hidden, once existed as a cruel-minded lich is no mystery. Yet, few know of the betrayer who crippled the Maimed Lord.

As Vecna ascended to power, armies of dead rose under his black banner. Among these undead legions emerged the vampire Kas, a shadow of death clad in iron. Vecna made Kas his Second in command, gifting the vampire with a sword he had personally forged from black metal fallen from the stars. Kas and his infamous blade lad Vecnaís armies for years, claiming innumerable souls in the lichís name, forging a legend as bloody as his lordís was cruel.

After a significant loss on the field of battle, a weakened Vecna returned to his throne to find Kas waiting. Armed with his black blade, the betrayer Kas struck and a titanic battle ensued. During the fray, despite Vecnaís dark powers, Kas sliced the lichís left hand from his body and cut an eye from his face. Fearing his destruction, Vecna employed frantic dangerous magic that annihilated both himself and Kasóor so it seemed.

However, in some misty realm avoided by the gods, Vecna and Kas somehow continued to exist and battle for centuries. Eventually, through dark, primordial magic, Vecna escaped, ascending to godhood. Kas, meanwhile was lost in the ether, becoming a vestige.

When you make a poor pact with Kas, he influences your personality in one of the following ways:

Personality Trait: I despise the undead and slay any I encounter.

Bond: You should destroy your enemies using guile, betrayal, and malice.


Legend shortened
Flaw replaced with bond
Black Blade deals +Cha to damage
Moved to 5th level - Andras moved to 4th

Submortimer
2015-09-15, 09:05 AM
Great work (one of my favorites so far!)


Thanks!


Just a wording thing: I would put the last sentence as "You gain resistance to poison damage and you have advantage on saving throws against being poisoned."


Sounds good, I'll change it.


Does this apply to all creatures? Constructs too?

"Living" creatures only, so no on constructs, undead, elementals, etc.


I would change this to dealing the 2d8+Str when you Pin, to incentivize using Pin.


I like it, will change it.


Seems powerful, but it's a 6th level vestige, so whatever.


Yeah, pretty much. It was a major power of the old one, but it USED to emulate Antipathy, which is an 8th level spell.

Submortimer
2015-09-15, 09:17 AM
I've got Kas, but I'm really not sure if it should get Extra Attack. My instincts tell me that if Kas does, Andras should get Extra Attack too. I would love some feedback on power level right now.


Firstly, I super dig Kas.

Secondly, I proposed a possible fix to zahn for this Extra Attack conundrum while discussing possible alternate subclasses: make it an augmentation available only to a warped fate binder, similar to thirsting blade being available to bladelocks. If we did this, I would remove Extra Attack from any and all vestiges.

The_Doctor
2015-09-15, 09:28 AM
@Zahn: Ah, sorry, forgot to remove the save prof. #zahnvestige
On the other hand, I admit the Lama is in a very very VERY early stage of development. I'll try to make some edits and post the new version up here today.

Submortimer
2015-09-15, 09:50 AM
Blinding Strike
When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can force the target to make a Constitution saving throw. On a failed save, the target is blinded until the beginning of your next turn. After using this ability, you cannot do so again until you complete a long rest.


I feel like you could make this a short rest ability without it being broken. Just a thought.

Other than that, solid work on Kas. If we decide to make a change to Extra Attack, you might remove that feature for something like this:

Black Blade: As an action, you can summon Kas's black blade to your hand. The Black Blade is a magical longsword, and can deal either slashing or necrotic damage (your choice). The blade vanishes if it ever leaves your grasp.

The_Doctor
2015-09-15, 09:53 AM
Or even right now:


The Emerald Lama
The Corrupter
9th Level vestige
DC: 25
Sign: Your head appears to have a chunk of emerald the size of a fist embedded into it.
Manifestation: The first thing that appears is an eerie noise. Then a figure appears out of the ground, slowly rising. The green light that is being emitted is so bright you cannot watch. When it dies down, it appears to be a figure in a green cloak. The cloak then dissappears, revealing a horrific figure: A wrinkled head, with a huge piece of emerald inside of it; legs that are tentacles that trail away into thin air; and arms, tentacles with leech mouths. The figure smiles creepily at your obvious discomfort, and begins to speak.

PROFICIENCIES
While bound to the Lama, you gain proficiency in Intelligence saving throws.

Tantric Corrupter of Enlightment
Once per long rest, you can force a target within 30 feet to succeed on an Intelligence saving throw. If they fail, they take 15d10 poison damage and are paralyzed for 3 rounds; if they succeed, they take only half damage and are not paralyzed.
The Emerald Mandala
While you are bound to the Emerald Lama, if you spend more than 1 minute conversing with a creature this is neither an undead nor a construct, that creature must make an Intelligence saving throw. On a failed save, the creature is charmed by you in a state of benign madness until you take a rest or unbind the Emerald Lama.If you do not wish to drive people insane, you may take an action on your turn or one minute out of combat to turn this ability off or on.
The Third Eye
You can project a green mist that simulates the otherworldly court of Azathoth. You can create a cube of mist 15 feet by 15 feet by 15 feet big as an action on your turn. Those who enter the cube or start their turn there, except you, take 7d6 psychic damage. The cube remains for 3 rounds, after which point you must take a short rest to use it again.
Embrace of the Lama
As an action on your turn, you can transmute both your arms into tentacles, which are considered finesse melee weapons. On a hit, your tentacle deals 1d6 poison damage, and you can attempt a grapple immediately. While grappling a creature with these tentacles, you slowly drain the creature's memories and soul, reducing this Wisdom score by 1 point at the beginning of each turn that they spend grappled. Afterwards, the drained stats regenerate at a rate of 1 per week. Once you have used this ability you must take a long rest to use it again.
PACT INFORMATION:

The Emerald Lama once reigned supreme in the land of A-sia, in the east of the Prime Material, though he occasioned trips to other worlds, and even other planes. He was not immortal; in fact he could be killed, but his followers did not worry; they had but to look along the coasts for the one born with the green birthmark, and the Lama would take new body, and become reborn. However, one time he died, and there was no one. For just a few days before the child had been born, but the baby's parents were secretly horrified at their beautiful child being the vessel of the Lama. They prayed to an unknown god, who they knew were angry with the Corrupter for turning some of his worshipers. They prayed for this god to save their child. However, this god was cruel, so he took the child and placed it outside the cosmos itself. The Lama's rebirth occurred inside the realm of the vestiges.

If you make a poor pact with the Emerald Lama, he influences your personality in one of the following ways:


Influence
Description


Personality Trait
I secretly despise all forms of religion.


Flaw
I have an unquenchable thirst for knowledge of the Far Realm, the stars, and the vestigial realm.

Scarce
2015-09-15, 10:04 AM
Secondly, I proposed a possible fix to zahn for this Extra Attack conundrum while discussing possible alternate subclasses: make it an augmentation available only to a warped fate binder, similar to thirsting blade being available to bladelocks. If we did this, I would remove Extra Attack from any and all vestiges.

I don't know if I like the idea of putting Extra Attack in a subclass. I'm behind the concept of needing mix and match vestiges to build a strong binder, so it makes sense that a handful of vestiges should offer Extra Attack for the melee-focused Binders. (These shouldn't stack, each will offer only 2 hits each attack action.) However, I worry that Extra Attack might be a more powerful feature than we've been considering, but that's just conjecture.

If there's some agreement that Kas is good in terms of power (though I worry it is too powerful), it only makes sense to give Andras Extra Attack as well.

@Xanathar:
I wanted to try something experimental with this vestige when I wrote it: very few passive abilities, mostly just once per long or once per short ray attacks. This would provide a powerful, but short-lived vestige choice. That being said, I've done some editing.

The_Doctor
2015-09-15, 10:17 AM
Hey Scarce, any feedback on the new version of the Lama?

Scarce
2015-09-15, 11:35 AM
PROFICIENCIES
While bound to the Lama, you can proficiency in Intelligence saving throws.

Grammar.



Tantric Corrupter of Enlightment
Once per long rest, you can force a target within 30 feet to succeed on an Intelligence saving throw. If they fail, they are paralyzed for 3 rounds and poisoned for the same duration.

Isn't paralyzed and poisoned redundant? How does also poisoning the target do anything additional that paralyzed doesn't?



The Emerald Mandala
If you spend at least 1 minute conversing with someone, they must make an Intelligence saving throw or slip partially into insanity. They must make additional saving throws each additional minute. If they fail three times, they are obsessed with you and your deeds. This effect lasts until you unbind this vestige or take a long rest. After the effects wear off, they shrug it off as just a phase they were going through. If you do not wish to drive people insane, you may take an action on your turn or one minute out of combat to turn this ability off or on.

Simplify this by using the charmed condition. Something like:

While you are bound to the Emerald Lama, if you spend more than 1 minute conversing with a creature this is neither an undead nor a construct, that creature must make an Intelligence saving throw. On a failed save, the creature is charmed by you in a state of benign madness until you take a rest or unbind te Emerald Lama.



The Third Eye
You can project a hazy green mist from your chunk of emerald that causes those in it to view the court of Azathoth and other such horrors. Since it isn't perfect, it isn't full insanity, but it is close. You can create a cube of mist 15 feet by 15 feet by 15 feet big as an action on your turn. Those who enter the cube or start their turn there, except you, take 4d10 psychic damage. The cube remains for 3 rounds, after which point you must take a short rest to use it again.

Mechanically, this is fine, but the first couple of sentences could be made more concise.



Embrace of the Lama
As an action on your turn, you can have your arms transmute into tentacles and slam into a target within melee range. You make a melee attack roll using Charisma as your attack attribute, and are treated as having proficiency. On a hit, you grab them with the tentacles, and deal them 3d6 necrotic damage per round. You slowly drain away their memories and soul, reducing their Wisdom by 1 point per round. Afterwards, the drained stats regenerate at a rate of 1 per week. Once you have used this ability you must take a long rest to use it again.

I would change this as follows:

As an action on your turn, you can transmute both your arms into tentacles, which are considered finesse melee weapons. On a hit, your tentacle deals 1d6 damage, and you can attempt a grapple immediately. While grappling a creature with these tentacles, you slowly drain the creature's memories and soul, reducing this Wisdom score by 1 point at the beginning of each turn that they spend grappled.

Submortimer
2015-09-15, 11:53 AM
I don't know if I like the idea of putting Extra Attack in a subclass. I'm behind the concept of needing mix and match vestiges to build a strong binder, so it makes sense that a handful of vestiges should offer Extra Attack for the melee-focused Binders. (These shouldn't stack, each will offer only 2 hits each attack action.) However, I worry that Extra Attack might be a more powerful feature than we've been considering, but that's just conjecture.


Extra Attack is a very strong ability, and is exactly why I think it should be done as a pact augment (maybe not linked to a subclass):
1) augments come online at 5th level, the same time as others generally get Extra Attack.
2) Since it is powerful, a vestige that grants it must be balanced back, granting weaker or fewer abilities to account for granting extra attack.
3) a melee focused binder will likely try to bind all three of these vestiges (Kas, Andras, Eligor), and as such will lose out compared to other binders whose abilities generally stack (even wrt those granting armor proficinecy, the way we've written it the ability is usually stackable once).

I say, make it an augment you can only take once.

Prince Zahn
2015-09-15, 12:39 PM
@all. Anyone have something to remark on the topic of Leraje-II (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19818320&postcount=175)? I took Scarce's advice and went for a simpler approach. the question remains: is this a step in the right direction? should it "get Alpha"?

@Scarce, expect a PM soon on Xanathar, I fear I might not have time to address it right now.

@Aim-a-rolled Llama: I pretty much agree with what scarce has to say on the matter. consider using poison damage instead of the poisoned condition. The DMG says a 9th level spell is should deal 15d10 ( 14d6 for an area effect) or dice with a similar average. (i.e ~12d12 for a single attack, as I estimate with anydice).

@On the topic of Extra Attack. mhmm, fair points from both sides, though I am inclined to concur with Mortimer on this one one the basis that extra attack is a really major benefit to a class, and that adding it to even 1 vestige ought not to be a decision we should take lightly. It poses the question of just how martial-focused the binder is, compared to the PHB classes? would the binder suffice with 1 extra attack, or would he require a second one to be balanced?

between the 3 binder fates, I agree the warped binder fate is indeed most geared toward taking on a melee roll (though he's still incomplete, I would like some help to complete it), finding room for it inside the 4 class feature template, however, would be a challenge. to compare with an existing subclass with EA, the Bard's College of Valor stand out. two attacks for 1 action is generally enough when you're not making characters that go far beyond dealing damage.

EDIT: the biggest problem with extra attack in the first place, is when more than one thing gives you an additional attack per round. once we make up our minds on where to place this single, one feature once, and once only, it will hurt a lot less.

I fear that an extra attack might be too powerful compared to the other augmentations, it will usually be the most tempting choice as it effectively doubles your damage output with the attack action. Do you think that could be counterbalanced with making additional pact augmentations that are exclusive to particular subclasses, or other class choices? if not, then as far as my vote goes, Extra Attack ought to return to 6th level in the class chassis, and we simply agree that it all further applications of the extra attack feature (as well as abilities the binder can get that effectively grant the binder a third attack in a round) will be off the table.

Submortimer
2015-09-15, 12:47 PM
@On the topic of Extra Attack. mhmm, fair points from both sides, though I am inclined to concur with Mortimer on this one one the basis that extra attack is a really major benefit to a class, and that adding it to even 1 vestige ought not to be a decision we should take lightly. It poses the question of just how martial-focused the binder is, compared to the PHB classes? would the binder suffice with 1 extra attack, or would he require a second one to be balanced?

between the 3 binder fates, I agree the warped binder fate is indeed most geared toward taking on a melee roll (though he's still incomplete, I would like some help to complete it), finding room for it inside the 4 class feature template, however, would be a challenge. to compare with an existing subclass with EA, the Bard's College of Valor stand out. two attacks for 1 action is generally enough when you're not making characters that go far beyond dealing damage

I fear that an extra attack might be too powerful compared to the other augmentations, it will usually be the most tempting choice as it effectively doubles your damage output with the attack action. Do you think that could be counterbalanced with making additional pact augmentations that are exclusive to particular subclasses, or other class choices? if not, then as far as my vote goes, Extra Attack ought to return to 6th level in the class chassis, and we simply agree that it all further applications of the extra attack feature (as well as abilities the binder can get that effectively grant the binder a third attack in a round) will be off the table.

Its a tempting option, for sure, but as you only get 4 augments at most and you can change them as you see fit, I don't think it'd be too bad. I'm obviously for linking it to the warped fate/melee subclass, but that would require some unique augments for the other Fates as well (which, to be fair, I am all for as well): I've suggested a few, and I specifically think the "pact weapon" option would be very fun.

I for one feel that the binder is balanced somewhere around the Warlock or paladin, more closely to the former; granted, the benefit to playing a binder is the inherent ability to change your focus as needed.

What is for certain is that they do NOT need more than one extra attack. Only the fighter is granted a third attack (Not counting TWF or polearm master), and it certainly should stay that way. Much like Lejare, I'd rather have the combat vestiges grant a fighting style specific to that vestige.

I see it like this: Binder summons Andras. Without much care or emotion, Andras drops his greatsword at the binder's feet. Binder picks up sword, and is instantly filled with the knowledge and granted the skill to use his weapon (GWF style).

Submortimer
2015-09-15, 01:08 PM
Something I had thought abot was this rule I used for my Vestiges warlock patron:


Each vestige has a seal that you must learn before you can bind it, and you collect these in a seal book, functionally similar to a spellbook. You learn a new vestige automatically at level 1, 5, 11 and 16, but you may copy seals from a found seal book. Researching vestiges in general is very difficult (Int: Arcana check 20), and finding specific info and/or the seal through research is very nearly impossible (Int: Arcana check 25, with disadvantage on the roll). You can copy a vestige seal into you book with 1 hour of work and by spending 50 gold for materials.

Now, this was designed for a world where binding isn't a common thing, so the DCs could be adjusted to fit something else, and I it would need a bit of re working to fit with this binder, but how does anyone else feel about this?

Prince Zahn
2015-09-15, 01:42 PM
Now, this was designed for a world where binding isn't a common thing, so the DCs could be adjusted to fit something else, and I it would need a bit of re working to fit with this binder, but how does anyone else feel about this?
As far as a vestige sealbook goes, I have no strong opinions one way or the other. it could be interesting, or it might be more of a hinderance to carry a book around. I do, however, think it might be cool to have a line of equipment accessories for the binder to be able to purchase (for extra enrichment). stuff like ceremonial robes, incense, some kind of weird but groovy one-use offerings that could help you bribe a vestige, hats/bandanas and the like that a binder could hide his signs with, that vestige book if we decide to use it...
Occult trinkets for a pact magic campaign,:smalltongue:.
seriously, if anyone has ideas for any, PM me and I could make a chart when once 100. :3

Back on topic, I wrote up a Behind the Curtain a while back to answer how many vestiges a binder gets, and on finding additional vestiges during the adventure. I want to believe that if a DM wants to go that route, s/he has the tools and power needed to restrict vestige access as something you'll only find during your adventures, or if you can find another binder to teach you. The DM also has typical DCs written down in the Dungeon Master's guide (pg.238-239) if an Ability check is in order and if all else fails.
Also, Karsus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?430658-PEACH-Fifth-Edition-Binder-Class-II-%28Still-WIP%29/page2&p=19709851&postcount=40#post19709851) is a Binder's best friend in any adventure where vestiges can be researched or discovered, assuming the Binder can summon him in the first place. I'm just pointing it out:smallsmile:

Submortimer
2015-09-15, 01:42 PM
PROFICIENCIES
Tools: Shortbow, Longbow


Nitpick: Weapons are not Tools.



LERAJE'S QUIVER
While you are bound to Leraje, you can draw ammunition from her endless, quasi-real quiver. You can ignore the Ammunition property when wielding a shortbow or longbow, And can add your Charisma Modifier your damage rolls when firing from such bows. Starting at 9th level, when you roll a critical hit on a ranged weapon attack, you can deal the extra damage from the critical hit on all creatures within 5 feet of your target.


Do you mean charisma 'instead of' Dex or 'in addition to' dex? The first is maybe too weak and the second is far too strong at that level: by compairison, Oathbreakers don't get that til 8 and bladelocks till 12th.

My recommendation? Make it shileighleh, but for bows: increase the damage die a step (d6 -> d8, d8 -> d10), make it magical, use charisma for attack and damage. At most, they essentially get Eldritch blast, but with a less favorable damage type.

Everything else is pretty much on point.

Prince Zahn
2015-09-15, 01:47 PM
Nitpick: Weapons are not Tools.



Do you mean charisma 'instead of' Dex or 'in addition to' dex? The first is maybe too weak and the second is far too strong at that level: by compairison, Oathbreakers don't get that til 8 and bladelocks till 12th.

My recommendation? Make it shileighleh, but for bows: increase the damage die a step (d6 -> d8, d8 -> d10), make it magical, use charisma for attack and damage. At most, they essentially get Eldritch blast, but with a less favorable damage type.

Everything else is pretty much on point. good catch on the nitpick!:smallredface:

How about if I throw the Charisma to Damage in as the 9th level feature, perhaps bump the critical hit one to 15th level as well? your thoughts?

Submortimer
2015-09-15, 01:58 PM
good catch on the nitpick!:smallredface:

How about if I throw the Charisma to Damage in as the 9th level feature, perhaps bump the critical hit one to 15th level as well? your thoughts?

Honestly, what I would do is what I suggested, move the critical hit ability to 15th, and toss in a feature similar to Horde breaker or Colossus Strike at 9th. Leraje always made you a mini-ranger, let's steal from the source!

Alternately, hunters mark 1/short rest.

I like the "Charisma is my attack Stat" thing, because it says "well, I personally suck at archery, but my vestige is guiding my arrows"

By all means, though, what you suggested also works just fine, if you want them to still need dex.

The_Doctor
2015-09-15, 02:02 PM
Most of the wording issues are because I copied it over from the old version. I'll fix that.

Prince Zahn
2015-09-15, 02:27 PM
Honestly, what I would do is what I suggested, move the critical hit ability to 15th, and toss in a feature similar to Horde breaker or Colossus Strike at 9th. Leraje always made you a mini-ranger, let's steal from the source!

Alternately, hunters mark 1/short rest.

I like the "Charisma is my attack Stat" thing, because it says "well, I personally suck at archery, but my vestige is guiding my arrows"

By all means, though, what you suggested also works just fine, if you want them to still need dex.

I am rather hesitant from a direct copypaste from the ranger. The poor class is having enough trouble keeping up with everybody else already.

I'm looking at what I wrote in the Quick Build. I suggested that the Binder would invest in either DEX or CON as highest (after CHA). I reckon if the player can forsee the binder engaging in melee combat and going for the armor options, CON would be better, but if, for some reason, the Binder doesn't want heavy armor, and would rather stay out of melee, Dexterity would be more favorable. I figure if Leraje is worthwhile, it might make help to make Dexterity a more tempting investment.
Also, I've been running motion pictures in my brain about a Binder summoning Leraje one full moon night to hunt down a werewolf. It makes me wish the original Leraje vestige was like that.

I'm unsure if, like Aym, Leraje should automatically give elves and half-elves a good pact.

Submortimer
2015-09-15, 02:42 PM
I am rather hesitant from a direct copypaste from the ranger. The poor class is having enough trouble keeping up with everybody else already.

I'm looking at what I wrote in the Quick Build. I suggested that the Binder would invest in either DEX or CON as highest (after CHA). I reckon if the player can forsee the binder engaging in melee combat and going for the armor options, CON would be better, but if, for some reason, the Binder doesn't want heavy armor, and would rather stay out of melee, Dexterity would be more favorable. I figure if Leraje is worthwhile, it might make help to make Dexterity a more tempting investment.
Also, I've been running motion pictures in my brain about a Binder summoning Leraje one full moon night to hunt down a werewolf. It makes me wish the original Leraje vestige was like that.

I'm unsure if, like Aym, Leraje should automatically give elves and half-elves a good pact.

Not a bad idea, honestly, letting elves and half-elves bind her with a good pact automatically.

I see your point. Most characters mainline one stat, then buff a second. In that case, I would do your suggestion, granting charisma bonus to arrow damage at 9th and the Crit Burst at 15th. You could even make that Crit burst a bit stronger since it comes online at such a late level, maybe increasing the damage area.

Submortimer
2015-09-15, 05:09 PM
Crap, Posted on the wrong thread.

FYI, I'm going to try and get Otiax and Dantalion done either tonight or tomorrow. Keep an eye out!

Submortimer
2015-09-16, 03:45 PM
Here's Otiax, as promised.

Otiax
The Key to the Gate
5th Level vestige
DC: 16
Seal:

Sign: While bound to Otiax, you are surrounded by thin wisps of blue fog, even in the strongest wind.

Manifestation: When Otiax manifests, a locked golden gate appears within its seal. Blue fog curls out in wispy tendrils from between the bars, obscuring what lies beyond. After a moment of silence, some unseen force crashes against the barrier. Then the gate shakes and rattles loudly, as though some creature is desperate to open it. Ragged breathing becomes audible, and the fog swirls around some indistinct yet terrible form. At last the raging stops, and the azure vapor passes through the gate. The sound of the tumblers turning in the lock becomes audible, then the gate creaks open.

PROFICIENCIES
Tools: Thieve's Tools

Fog Sight: You may see normally through obscurement caused by fog, clouds, smoke, or any other similar effect.

Concealing Mist: You whip up the mists that surrounds you into a concealing cloud. As an action, you can thicken the cloud around you, causing all ranged attacks against you to be made at disadvantage. This effect ends at the end of your next turn, though you may use your action again to maintain the cloud; it also ends in the presence of a strong wind. At higher levels, you may include more creatures into the cloud: at level 14, it includes all creatures within 10 ft.; at level 18, all creatures within 30ft.

Obscuring Mist: You summon a roiling cloud of blue fog, obscuring the area. You may cast Fog Cloud as a 1st level spell without a using a spell slot.

Unlock: You focus your mist into a lock you can see, popping it open with a thought. You may cast Knock without using a spell slot. Once you do so, you must take a short or long rest before doing so again.

Fog Hammer: You can whip the fog about you into lashing tendrils of mist, slamming your foes with concussive force. As an action, you may make a melee spell attack which deals 2d6 magical bludgeoning damage against a creature within 10 ft. You may use Fog Hammer to make opportunity attacks.
At level 14, you can make two attacks with fog hammer as an action; at level 18, you may make three attacks with fog hammer as an action.

Death Fog: You create a burst of brilliant blue fog, leeching the life out of creatures unlucky enough to be caught in it. You may cast Cloudkill without using a spell slot. Once you do so, you must take a long rest before doing so again.

PACT INFORMATION: Otiax is a bit of a conundrum because it seems to have originated outside the known cosmology of the planes. A few sources of pact magic lore refer to some plane or place called the Far Realm, but most offer no explanation of Otiaxís past. Some even posit that Otiax is somehow the key to reaching the Far Realm, but that supposition has more to do with Otiaxís appearance than with any real evidence of its nature. Because Otiax never speaks, it can shed no light on the issue. Binding with it is more a matter of instinct and will than of deliberation.

Otiax absolutely despises locked doors, gates, boxes...anything locked, really. As part of the binding ritual, a summoner may attempt to unlock a locked object via skill in an attempt to gain Otiax's favor. Make a Dexterity(Thieve's Tools) check against a locked object; Success opens the lock and grants you advantage on your binding check. Alternatively, you may present a complex lock (worth 100 gp or more) to Otiax which you unlock during the ritual via any means (key, combination, etc.); doing so grants you advantage on the binding check, though the object MUST remain unlocked for the duration of the pact. if it does not, you have disadvantage the next time you attempt to bind Otiax.

If you make a poor pact with Otiax, he influences your personality in one of the following ways:


Influence
Description


Personality Trait
When confronted with unopened doors or gates, I become agitated and nervous.


Bond
I cannot abide a lock remaining secured. Whenever I see a key, I must attempt to use it to open the corresponding lock.

Prince Zahn
2015-09-16, 04:26 PM
Here are some variant subclasses, Served raw by Submortimer. I haven't altered them, sans lightly brushing up the format. this is partially because I should not get a definitive say in how these subclasses progress, (but I will try:smalltongue:). you guys have a look at them and tell us what you think. I will raise anything I might have to discuss on the lower half of this post:

(fluff pending)

PATRON VESTIGE
At 3rd level, you may select a vestige which you have bound with a good pact before. That vestige becomes your patron vestige, your sword and your shield against those who might attempt to harm you. This confers on you a number of benefits:
- You always make a good pact with your patron vestige.
- While bound to your patron vestige, any weapon you wield is considered magical.
- When you are hit by a melee or ranged attack, you may use your reaction to add your charisma modifier to your AC, potentially causing the attack to miss. You may do this a number of times equal to you charisma bonus, after which you must take a long rest before doing so again.

You may change your patron vestige after you have made this choice; doing so requires a ritual lasting 24 hours. Following this change, your previous patron will not answer your call for 7 days.

BONUS PROFICIENCIES
You gain proficiency in Martial weapons and shields.

PATRON BOON
At 7th level, while bound to your Patron Vestige, you gain an additional pact augmentation.

PATRON STRIKE
At 13th level, your melee and ranged weapon attacks deal additional psychic damage equal to your charisma modifer.

PATRON'S POWER
At 17th level, you tap into the full power of your patron. As a bonus action, you may access your patron's true powers:
- At the start of your turn, you heal 10 HP
- Your strength, dexterity, or con (your choice) becomes 19 (if it was lower).
- Once per turn, if an attack roll you make would be lower than your charisma score, you may use your charisma score as your attack roll (the total, not the result of the die roll. You cannot score a critical hit from this ability).

This effect lasts for 1 minute. After it is used, you must take a long rest before doing so again.

(Fluff pending)


OCCULT SPECIALTY
At third level select three vestiges you know that you have made a good pact with. You may double your proficiency bonus when attempting a binding check against those vestiges.
You may select an additional vestige at 7th, 13th, and 17th level.

OCCULT PHENOMENON
At third level, you gain the Prestidigitation, Thaumaturgy, and Druidcraft cantrips.

EMPTY VESSEL
At 7th level, you may attempt to bind one of your Occult Speciality vestiges into either another willing host (that is not a binder) or a recently deceased humanoid or animal body. Make a binding check with disadvantage against that vestige; success binds the target, failure binds the vestige to yourself with a bad pact. Doing so counts as if you had bound the vestige to yourself, and as such counts against your total levels of bound vestige and number of vestiges bound in a day.
A living target you bind a vestige to gains all the benefits of having bound that vestige himself with a bad pact, but otherwise remains in control of his form. A body you bind a vestige to gains all of the abilities of the vestige in question, and is otherwise a normal creature of it's type, under your control. In either case, if the creature dies, the bond breaks immediately. You cannot bind the same vestige to multiple creatures (including yourself) at the same time.
You may place a bind on one other creature at 7th level, 2 at 13th level, and 3 at 17th level.

MEDIUM
At 13th level, you learn to channel vestiges with much greater efficiency and fluidity. When renegotiating your pacts following a short rest, you may expel any or all of your current vestiges, and make new pacts as if it was following a long rest; you still may not exceed your maximum number of vestiges bound at one time. As well, you do not have disadvantage when attempting to re-bind an expelled vestige within 24 hours.

MASTER SUMMONER
At 17th level, you learn to expidite the binding process to the point that you can swap vestiges in the blink of an eye. As an action, you may expel a bound vestige and bind a new vestige with a good pact. Once you use this ability, you must take a long rest before doing so again.



(Fluff pending)


PACT MAGIC
At 3rd level, you gain the ability to cast spells. You learn two cantrips from either the warlock or sorcerer spell list; once this choice is made, it cannot be changed. You learn an additional cantrip at 8th, 14th, and 19th level.
You gain two pact magic spells slots, and an additional one at 14th level. Your spell slots are all if the same level, and always of the highest level that you can cast. These slots refresh following a short rest.
You know a number of spells from your chosen spell list as determined by the Anima Mage spells table. Additionally, you may chose an additional known spell from the warlock, sorcerer, or bard spell list when you bind a vestige; you lose knowledge of that spell when that vestige departs. Spells learned in this way must be lower than or equal to the highest level spell you know.

ANIMA CASTING
At 3rd level, you gain 2 Anima points, and you gain more as you increase in level, though you can never have more than the amount shown on the Pact Magic table (WIP) These are functionally similar to Sorcery points, and may be used in much the same fashion:
- As a bonus action on your turn, you may spend a number of them to create a new spell slot. The cost of creating a new spell slot is shown in the table below. You may use this ability to create a spell slot of a level higher than you normally have, but it can be highly dangerous: doing so requires you to make a concentration check, with a DC equal to 13 + the spell level of the slot you are trying to make. Success grants you the slot, failure burns the Anima points and requires you to make a roll on the Wild Magic table.
(Table WIP, same as sorcerer table)
- As a bonus action on your turn, you may turn your spell slots into Anima points, at a rate of 1 point per level of slot. Alternatively, you may choose to sacrifice the powers of a bound vestige in order to gain Anima points: doing so gives you a number of Anima points equal to 1 + The vestige's level, but you lose access to that vestige's powers until you take a long rest.

ANIMA SHIELD
- At 7th level, you force a bound vestige into being your personal watchdog. While you are bound to a vestige with a good pact, you add your proficiency bonus to your initiative modifier, and you cannot be surprised.

ANIMA METAMAGIC
- At 13th level, you use your connection to your vestiges to warp your magic in unpredictable ways. For each Vestige you have made a good pact with, you may select a Metamagic option from the Sorcerer list. Using Metamagic costs Anima points equal to the listed Sorcerey point cost, and you may only use one Metamagic option on a given spell.

ANIMA MASTERY
- At 17th level, your mastery over your vestiges allows you to shift some of your power onto them. When casting a spell that requires concentration, you may force a vestige which you have made a good pact with to maintain concentration of the spell for you, allowing you to concentrate on an additional spell. Doing so cuts you off from that vestige's powers until you take a short or long rest.
Once you use this ability, you must take a short or long rest before you can do so again.
__________________________________________________ _____________________

And here's the third. This one MAY be the most powerful, but it's also very fiddly. I decided to go the Pact Magic route (for obvious reasons), mostly because I think it's more fun and in line with the class's powers as a whole.

Anyways, those are my suggestions for subclasses: one for melee, one for spellcasting, one for pure vestige focus. I'll be more than happy to put them up as alternate or additional subclass options, if you want to keep the Fates as the "regular" subclasses





BINDER'S BLADE (Pre-Req: Binder level 5th, warped fate or knight of the seal)
You gain the Extra Attack class feature. This does not stack with any other source of Extra Attack.

PACT WEAPON (Pre-req: knight of the seal or Warped fate)
- You are able to summon a magic weapon from beyond. This weapon may be any form you choose, and is considered magical. You are proficient with this weapon.

ANIMA CHARGE (Pre-req: Anima Mage)
- Your current and maximum Anima points increase by 1.

ANIMA KNOWLEDGE (Pre-req: Anima mage or Awakened Fate)
- You learn one additional spell from the sorcerer, warlock, or bard spell list.

POLTERGEIST (pre-req: Master Occultist or Unfettered Fate)
- You learn the Mage hand cantrip, and may cast it, Prestidigitation, Thaumaturgy, or Druidcraft as a bonus action.

OCCULT BASTION (pre-req: Master Occultist)
- You and any creatures you have bound a vestige to via Empty Vessel gain a +2 bonus to a type of saving throw. Each time you select this augment, you must select a different saving throw.
One thing this did all point out to me was that subclasses traditionally start with a ribbon. I'll consider that as I proceed to work on my own subclasses.

my notes:
KOSS

Taking a vestige as your patron, thematically, is parallel in terms of devotion to championing a patron deity as a Cleric or Paladin. It's reasonable for a Knight of Sacred Seal to be quite zealous of fighting in her vestige's name. changing your patron routinely sounds a little iffy to me.
In terms of balance, being able to change it as you wish can make binding at least one of the high level vestiges much easier to do, because if the Knight of Sacred Seal makes a pact with, say, Malphax, once, he can do so again and again without requiring a Binding check. personally, I don't think you should be able to change your patron vestige. our 1st and 2nd level vestiges also tend to have a small ability upgrade as you get stronger (usu. once every 6-7 levels) to keep them in the game for longer, taking a low level vestige as your patron will likely keep him/her in the game for longer, and encourage finding creative ways to combine that vestige's abilities with those of stronger spirits.
at higher levels, the bonus to AC essentially becomes the Shield spell, 5 times a day, in addition to everything else. it's not game-breaking or anything, but I'm a little ambivalent towards having that many uses.
We'll have to see if an additional pact augmentation is fair, but it sounds fair to me at a glance.
a little bit of Psychic Damage is always nice.
might I suggest that at level 17 we use 2d6 or a d10 die instead of a constant 10? alternatively, let a Binder use her hit dice (within limits, however) in the midst of combat? also, you could have it only function when the Binder is below half HP, so as to not completely make out of combat healing pointless.



MO:

Just for the sake of learning something new every day, the term "Binding Check" is obsolete, much like the term "Grapple check" is outdated. since it is binding vestiges is essentially a Charisma check, It is much simpler for a player to just call it that - a Charisma check to bind a vestige. once defined as simply a Charisma check, anything that can be stacked upon a skill-less Charisma Ability check will also apply to the Binding check. (it's also easier than creating a new skill :smalltongue::smallwink:)
I'm thanking my lucky stars that you still can't use the "binding expertise" for 9th level vestiges. if it we me, I'd limit it further still to apply only to "vestiges one level lower than the highest you can summon" giving you 3 1st level, 1 ≤3rd levels, 1 ≤5th level, and 1 ≤7th level.
I think Occult Phenomenon offers a lot of cantrips to contribute very little. it is essentially counts as 2-3 ribbons paired with the easier binding checks. they are not bad cantrips, it's just that there's rarely a point to having all 3 of them at once. usually a caster only needs one of these to do all the fancy, theme-based theatrics... while the rest would probably be earnable with different vestiges, I think you could afford 1 handier cantrip instead of 3 ribbon ones.
Empty Vessel is kind of cool, without a doubt. it puts you in a kind of support role at expense of your own power output. I having the ability scale is necessary, nor do I think 5e does that with subclass features (sans spell progression, but that functions differently and tends to have other subclass abilities revolve around it.) I think 1 is enough, with maybe one more in place of the last feature if you want to add it, that's a little more in tune with the format.
Medium looks a little unstable to me. it renders the rules for renegotiation kind of moot. the reason why renegotiation is as it is, is to make switching out a vestige costly. expelling a high level vestige usually means you will be swapping it out with a lower level one, or you can choose to bind a lower level vestige, so that when you expel it, you can afford a stronger one when you need it. this is a strategy choice for a Binder that I don't think a she should be able to get past.
I'd rephrase Master summoner with:
"You have mastered the art of pact-making, and learned to make and end pact even in the heat of combat. You can expel a single vestige you are bound to and bind another vestige in it's place, following the rules of Renegotiation. doing so takes 1 round. once you have used this feature, you can not use it again until you have completed a long rest."





AM:

Could you make a table indicating benchmarks for what exactly is the highest level an Anima Mage can cast, as well as how many spell slots it has by level 20?
mixing Sorcery points with a Warlock's spell slot progression... sounds a bit iffy. it might sound powerful it doesn't sound to me like it will get you far. by my reasoning, the Warlock got extra potency of cantrips, invocations and patron features to compensate for 4 spell slots, and the Sorcerer got a point pool to compensate for having a less versatility than the Wizard. these compensations weren't made equal (despite the classes as a whole are distinct but close enough to equal). this plus vestiges should make you more powerful than the Lock, and would steal the Sorc's distinctive edge.
but borrowing the Wild Magic table sounds acceptable, and kind of fun, as it is too unreliable to be abused, nor does it break any real fundamental points for balancing the sorcerer or the Binder (to my knowledge, at least, if I am wrong please correct me) if you want the Anima mage to have elements of the sorcerer, that is not a pretty good way to go IMO.
things I said about the point pool kind of apply for metamagic as well. as it turns out, a lot of people are less than thirlled by how the sorcerer (and ranger) came out in the PHB. they are trying to remedy that with subclasses in the Unearthed Arcana column
@17th level feature. I think my head isn't clear enough to think about this one. what do others have to say about the subclasses?



I'll give a review over the augmentations another time. I am exhausted.
what do you guys think about Submortimer's approach?

Submortimer
2015-09-16, 04:31 PM
And here's Dantalion. DM's should be encouraged to allow human, Half elf, or half orc binders to discover their connection with the Star Empire should they choose to frequently bind Dantalion.

Dantalion
The Star Emperor
5th Level vestige
DC: 16
Seal:

Sign: One of Dantalionís faces appears on your torso, as though it were a vestigial conjoined twin. It seems lifeless most of the time, but when you activate an ability granted by Dantalion, it opens its eyes and mouth, revealing a starry void within.

Manifestation: Dantalion appears in a flash of red light as a 10-foot-tall humanoid, resplendent in crimson and gold robes. His head is a massive conglomeration of dozens of human facesómale and female, young and old. A gold crown as big around as a barrel rests on the brow of his enormous cranium. Dantalion carries a great tome under one arm and speaks with the voices of his many faces, always in cryptic passages that he reads from his book. Sometimes just one face reads from his tome, but the speaking face changes often and usually in mid-sentence. Those who glance at the bookís pages see a dark sky filled with stars that change with each flip of a page.

PROFICIENCIES
Dantalion grants you no additional proficiencies

Dantalion's Knowledge: You receive insight on any topic which you might be researching. You may add you Charisma Modifier instead of your Intelligence modifier to all Int-based skill checks. Additionally, you gain advantage on Int-based skill checks made concerning royalty, nobility, current or ancient kingdoms, and the like.

Dantalion's Awe: You invoke the full awe and might of Dantalion, cowing your enemies before you. You may cast Sanctuary without using a spell slot.

Telepath: You can speak with your mind and read the thoughts of others. You may communicate telepathically with any creature within 30 ft. You do not need to share a language with the creature for it to understand you, but it must be able to understand a language. Additionally, you can read the thoughts of creatures within 30 ft.; this allows two way communication, as well as reading general surface thoughts. Digging further requires the creature to make a wisdom saving throw to prevent you from looking into his mind. Any creature who makes their saving throw against this ability is unaffected by it for 24 hours.

Thought Travel: You can instantly transport yourself to a location that you can call to mind. You may cast Dimension Door without using a spell slot. Once you use this ability, you must take a short or long rest before you can do so again.
At 15th level, you may use this ability to cast Teleport without a spell slot; At 20th level, using this ability to cast Dimension Door no longer requires you to rest before you can do so again.

PACT INFORMATION: Binders know little of how Dantalion came to be. The most common legend of his origin presents him not as one spirit, but as a conglomeration of the souls of a royal line whose members were cursed not to join their deities in the afterlife. This ancient imperial line is not now connected to any living leaders. Supposedly, however, descendants of this family still live, ignorant of both their heritage and their curse. Some binders profess to be scions of Dantalionóthe true heirs of the royal lineóbut these claims are likely just the fancies of romantic minds.
Dantalion is, always has been, and always will be royalty; a binder who appeals to Dantalion's royal status through flourished bows, proper honorifics, and stately dress gains advantage on their binding check.

Any creature who discovers that it has some relation to the royal lineage of Dantalion will always make a good pact with Dantalion. As Dantalion's line was originally human, this is limited to Humans, Half-Orcs, and Half-Elves: Tieflings, Aasimar, and other half-breeds find that the other side of their blood overpowers whatever connection they may have has to the old line, forever severing them from Dantalion's grace.

If you make a poor pact with Dantalion, he influences your personality in one of the following ways:


Influence
Description


Personality Trait
I am constantly aloof to those I speak to, and my speech is riddled with stately gestures and flourishes.


Flaw
I am insatiably curious about current rulers, nobility, and head's of state. I will always attempt to discover information about them, even to my detriment.

Submortimer
2015-09-16, 05:10 PM
Whew, lots to unpack here Lets see what we have:



KOSS

Taking a vestige as your patron, thematically, is parallel in terms of devotion to championing a patron deity as a Cleric or Paladin. It's reasonable for a Knight of Sacred Seal to be quite zealous of fighting in her vestige's name. changing your patron routinely sounds a little iffy to me.
In terms of balance, being able to change it as you wish can make binding at least one of the high level vestiges much easier to do, because if the Knight of Sacred Seal makes a pact with, say, Malphax, once, he can do so again and again without requiring a Binding check. personally, I don't think you should be able to change your patron vestige. our 1st and 2nd level vestiges also tend to have a small ability upgrade as you get stronger (usu. once every 6-7 levels) to keep them in the game for longer, taking a low level vestige as your patron will likely keep him/her in the game for longer, and encourage finding creative ways to combine that vestige's abilities with those of stronger spirits.
at higher levels, the bonus to AC essentially becomes the Shield spell, 5 times a day, in addition to everything else. it's not game-breaking or anything, but I'm a little ambivalent towards having that many uses.
We'll have to see if an additional pact augmentation is fair, but it sounds fair to me at a glance.
a little bit of Psychic Damage is always nice.
might I suggest that at level 17 we use 2d6 or a d10 die instead of a constant 10? alternatively, let a Binder use her hit dice (within limits, however) in the midst of combat? also, you could have it only function when the Binder is below half HP, so as to not completely make out of combat healing pointless.



1. I don't really disagree with you on the changing of a KOTS's patron vestige, i just didn't want them to be locked into only the 1st and 2nd level vestiges. I'd be alright changing it, or making it more costly to change later on.
2. The AC ability is essentially the Defensive Duelist feat, but limited to a number of times a day.
3. The 17th level ability only lasts one minute and is only useable 1/long rest, so it certainly won't make out of combat healing pointless. in any case, i'm alright lowering the healing of that ability or removing it altogether in favor of something else.
4. Also, a slight change: instead of "any weapon a KOTS wields is magical" I'd replace that with "While bound to their patron vestige, a KOTS gains a fighting style from the following list: Defense, TWF, GWF, Mariner."


MO:

Just for the sake of learning something new every day, the term "Binding Check" is obsolete, much like the term "Grapple check" is outdated. since it is binding vestiges is essentially a Charisma check, It is much simpler for a player to just call it that - a Charisma check to bind a vestige. once defined as simply a Charisma check, anything that can be stacked upon a skill-less Charisma Ability check will also apply to the Binding check. (it's also easier than creating a new skill :smalltongue::smallwink:)
I'm thanking my lucky stars that you still can't use the "binding expertise" for 9th level vestiges. if it we me, I'd limit it further still to apply only to "vestiges one level lower than the highest you can summon" giving you 3 1st level, 1 ≤3rd levels, 1 ≤5th level, and 1 ≤7th level.
I think Occult Phenomenon offers a lot of cantrips to contribute very little. it is essentially counts as 2-3 ribbons paired with the easier binding checks. they are not bad cantrips, it's just that there's rarely a point to having all 3 of them at once. usually a caster only needs one of these to do all the fancy, theme-based theatrics... while the rest would probably be earnable with different vestiges, I think you could afford 1 handier cantrip instead of 3 ribbon ones.
Empty Vessel is kind of cool, without a doubt. it puts you in a kind of support role at expense of your own power output. I having the ability scale is necessary, nor do I think 5e does that with subclass features (sans spell progression, but that functions differently and tends to have other subclass abilities revolve around it.) I think 1 is enough, with maybe one more in place of the last feature if you want to add it, that's a little more in tune with the format.
Medium looks a little unstable to me. it renders the rules for renegotiation kind of moot. the reason why renegotiation is as it is, is to make switching out a vestige costly. expelling a high level vestige usually means you will be swapping it out with a lower level one, or you can choose to bind a lower level vestige, so that when you expel it, you can afford a stronger one when you need it. this is a strategy choice for a Binder that I don't think a she should be able to get past.
I'd rephrase Master summoner with:
"You have mastered the art of pact-making, and learned to make and end pact even in the heat of combat. You can expel a single vestige you are bound to and bind another vestige in it's place, following the rules of Renegotiation. doing so takes 1 round. once you have used this feature, you can not use it again until you have completed a long rest."




1. I get the idea of "not making another skill", but for sake of brevity i'd rather define in the Soul Binding section of the class description what a Binding Check is: A charisma check that you add your Proficiency bonus to. This gives us a useable shorthand for any and all vestige/subclass descriptions, making them less wordy and easier to read. Also, the term Grapple Check isn't outdated: the 5e PHB defines what that is in the Combat section and uses it in several spots throughout the book.
2. I'm good with limiting Occult Speciality, and it was on purpose that you couldn't do it with the 9th level vestiges.
3. While there are other subclasses that have scaling abilities (Battlemaster, Monk of the 4 elements, Cleric Domains), I can see how Empty Vessel could get kind of broken. I'll limit it to one additional creature.
4. The point of Medium is to do exactly that. Essentially, this whole subclass is about being a full master of specifically binding, giving up the combat bonuses KOTS brings or the spellcasting AM gives.
5. I'm good changing the wording of Master Summoner to that.



AM:

Could you make a table indicating benchmarks for what exactly is the highest level an Anima Mage can cast, as well as how many spell slots it has by level 20?
mixing Sorcery points with a Warlock's spell slot progression... sounds a bit iffy. it might sound powerful it doesn't sound to me like it will get you far. by my reasoning, the Warlock got extra potency of cantrips, invocations and patron features to compensate for 4 spell slots, and the Sorcerer got a point pool to compensate for having a less versatility than the Wizard. these compensations weren't made equal (despite the classes as a whole are distinct but close enough to equal). this plus vestiges should make you more powerful than the Lock, and would steal the Sorc's distinctive edge.
but borrowing the Wild Magic table sounds acceptable, and kind of fun, as it is too unreliable to be abused, nor does it break any real fundamental points for balancing the sorcerer or the Binder (to my knowledge, at least, if I am wrong please correct me) if you want the Anima mage to have elements of the sorcerer, that is not a pretty good way to go IMO.
things I said about the point pool kind of apply for metamagic as well. as it turns out, a lot of people are less than thirlled by how the sorcerer (and ranger) came out in the PHB. they are trying to remedy that with subclasses in the Unearthed Arcana column
@17th level feature. I think my head isn't clear enough to think about this one. what do others have to say about the subclasses?[/SPOILER]




1. yeah, I'll make the tables when/if we decided if this is a thing wanted for this class. For now, just assume that the level progression and spells known follows the Awakened Fate table.
2. Anima pool is gonna be a bit fiddily. I don't think you'll be more powerful than a warlock nor a sorcerer, since you will only ever be able to get 4th level spells, and even then not till much later than they would.
3. I liked the wild magic bit. Essentially, an AM can cast use a higher level spell slot with Anima Pool points, but it carries a high risk.
5. I'm alright with that. Just because the sorcerer is lackluster doesn;t mean we can't steal from them :-)
6. I need change the 17th level feature to this:

ANIMA MASTERY
- At 17th level, your mastery over your vestiges allows you to shift some of your power onto them. When casting a spell that requires concentration, you may force a vestige which you have made a good pact with to maintain concentration of the spell for you, allowing you to concentrate on an additional spell. Doing so cuts you off from that vestige's powers until you take a short or long rest. A vestige must be at least 1 level higher than the spell it is concentrating on.
Once you use this ability, you must take a long rest before you can do so again.

This means that you have to devote significant resources (1/5 of you available vestige levels) just to concentrate on something like Fly. That should balance it out a bit more.

Scarce
2015-09-17, 09:00 AM
Wow, there's a lot to pick through! I'll get to the subclasses later.

@Otiax: I don't see any problems. Another great one!

@Dantalion: I'll pick at this a little bit.

Dantalion's Knowledge: I would probably have made a different approach with this. Typically, I try to avoid adding too many ability score modifiers to anything, lest we break the bounded accuracy. My take: You can add your Charisma modifier instead of your Intelligence modifier when making Knowledge checks.

Dantalion's Awe: This seems a little rough. You say it lasts for a minute, but how or when does it begin? Do creatures make a saving throw once and just can't attack you for 1 minute, or do they make one every time they attack? Regardless of the answers you give here, I think it's a little overpowered, as it basically imposes disadvantage on every attack for 1 minute, but worse, because the second roll will almost certainly be worse and might not even have proficiency. I would consider making this a reaction to an attack that imposes the effect on 1 creature, who must make a saving throw each time it attacks you, ending the effect on a successful save.

Telepath: It seems weird that there isn't a way to implement this with currently existing spells.

Submortimer
2015-09-17, 11:31 AM
Dantalion's Knowledge: I would probably have made a different approach with this. Typically, I try to avoid adding too many ability score modifiers to anything, lest we break the bounded accuracy. My take: You can add your Charisma modifier instead of your Intelligence modifier when making Knowledge checks.


Changed to this.



Dantalion's Awe: This seems a little rough. You say it lasts for a minute, but how or when does it begin? Do creatures make a saving throw once and just can't attack you for 1 minute, or do they make one every time they attack? Regardless of the answers you give here, I think it's a little overpowered, as it basically imposes disadvantage on every attack for 1 minute, but worse, because the second roll will almost certainly be worse and might not even have proficiency. I would consider making this a reaction to an attack that imposes the effect on 1 creature, who must make a saving throw each time it attacks you, ending the effect on a successful save.


I didn't realize it before, but what I had up was essentially just Sanctuary, a first level spell.

Edited to allow you to specifically cast Sanctuary at will.



Telepath: It seems weird that there isn't a way to implement this with currently existing spells.

There really isn't. The majority of the ability comes from the GoO Warlock 1st level ability, with some additionaly benefits thrown in. The closest I could see was Rory's Telepathic Bond, but that's not really the right effect.

Scarce
2015-09-17, 09:33 PM
Wow, there's a lot of god stuff for me to look at today! KOSS first:



- When you are hit by a melee or ranged attack, you may use your reaction to add your charisma modifier to your AC, potentially causing the attack to miss. You may do this a number of times equal to you charisma bonus, after which you must take a long rest before doing so again.

So, free shield spell 5 times a day? I think that's pretty powerful. I would probably be replacing this with something more like a free constant mage armor. "While you are unarmored and bound to your Patron Vestige, your armor class is equal to 13 + your dexterity modifier."



You may change your patron vestige after you have made this choice; doing so requires a ritual lasting 24 hours. Following this change, your previous patron will not answer your call for 7 days.

I'm not against them changing patron vestiges, but I think the way it's implemented is a little boring (though completely serviceable.) What if to change patron vestiges, a binder had to spend 24 hours (or an even longer duration) bound only to the new vestige?



BONUS PROFICIENCIES
You gain proficiency in Martial weapons and shields.

Is all martial weapons a little powerful? I think the way I would do it is to offer proficiency with one martial weapon (considered magical) and give a fighter fighting style.


My thoughts on Master Occultist:



OCCULT SPECIALTY
At third level select three vestiges you know that you have made a good pact with. You may double your proficiency bonus when attempting a binding check against those vestiges.

I would just make this advantage. It requires less math and means you can't stack this benefit with some other advantage on binding.



EMPTY VESSEL
At 7th level, you may attempt to bind one of your Occult Speciality vestiges into either another willing host (that is not a binder) or a recently deceased humanoid or animal body. Make a binding check with disadvantage against that vestige; success binds the target, failure binds the vestige to yourself with a bad pact. Doing so counts as if you had bound the vestige to yourself, and as such counts against your total levels of bound vestige and number of vestiges bound in a day.
A living target you bind a vestige to gains all the benefits of having bound that vestige himself with a bad pact, but otherwise remains in control of his form. A body you bind a vestige to gains all of the abilities of the vestige in question, and is otherwise a normal creature of it's type, under your control. In either case, if the creature dies, the bond breaks immediately. You cannot bind the same vestige to multiple creatures (including yourself) at the same time.
You may place a bind on one other creature at 7th level, 2 at 13th level, and 3 at 17th level.

I'm super iffy about half of this one. Revive a body as a free follower? With vestige powers? Under your control? (Without rules to regulate the action economy?) On the other hand I really like the idea of granting one of your allies a lower level vestige! I would be exceptionally cautious with this power, however. I would try it as follows:


At 7th level, you may attempt to bind one of your Occult Speciality vestiges into another willing host (that is not a binder). Make a binding check with disadvantage against a 1st level vestige; success binds the target, failure binds the vestige to yourself with a bad pact. Doing so counts as if you had bound the vestige to yourself, and as such counts against your total levels of bound vestige and number of vestiges bound in a day. After binding 1 vestige in this way, you must complete a long rest before binding another.
You may attempt to bind another creature 10 a vestige of 2nd level or lower at 7th level, 3rd level or lower at 13th level, and 4th level or lower at 17th level.


I'll take a look at Anima Mage later. As it stands right now, I really like these! I reserve my opinion on whether these hold up better than the Fates, but I'll say that I like KOSS on a thematic level more than warped fate. I was never a big fan of the monster-y, natural attack focused characters from 3.5, so it always rubbed me the wrong way that it was the focus for the melee stuff for this class.

Scarce
2015-09-17, 10:15 PM
Chupoclops! So he's 6th level, but that's really where be belongs. Too many features?

Chupoclops
Harbringer of Forever
6th Level Vestige

Monstrous Bite
While bound to Chupoclops, your lower jaw increases in size and razor sharp fangs sprout from it. You can use an unarmed strike to bite a creature, dealing 1d8 piercing damage on a hit.

Monstrous Reach
Once per turn when you make an attack, you can suddenly stretch and extend your appendages outward, increasing your reach for that attack by 5 feet.

Ghost Touch
Beginning at 10th level, your melee attacks overcome damage reduction against incorporeal undead, such as spectres and wraiths. Additionally, your attacks and spells affect creatures on the Ethereal Plane normally as if they were on the Material Plane.

Soulsense
You possess a special blindsense with a range of 10 feet which can detect the exact location of living creatures which aren't constructs, elementals, or undead.

Ethereal Jaunt
As a bonus action, you can magically shift from the plane you currently occupy to the Ethereal Plane until the end of your next turn. You may move no further than 60 feet from where you originated on the Ethereal Plane. After using this ability, you cannot do so again until you complete a short or long rest.
Chupoclops, once a supposed harbinger of the end of existence, was a titanic, spiderlike creature that stalked the Ethereal Plane. Legend has it that the gods trapped the monstrous Chupoclops in the realm of ghosts to prevent it from devouring hope, but it was destined to escape and sate its hunger during the end times.

Because Chupoclops was a terror to both the living and the undead, a group composed of legendary heroes and infamous villains, some alive and some ghosts, set out to murder Chupoclops and thus accomplish what deities could not. The furious battle lasted for seven days, and each day ended with the death of one member of the group that had come to kill the great monster. On the last day, the last hero struck down Chupoclops with her dying blow.

Chupoclops, never a creature defined by the normal rules of the universe, became a vestige after its death. Binder scholars claim that adventurers still encounter its enormous corpse in the misty Ethereal Plane. Now that the monster can no longer destroy hope, some say it will exist forever, and thus, so will the world.


When you make a poor pact with Chupoclops, he influences your personality in one of the following ways:

Personality Trait: I can't help but be pessimistic. At best, I'm quietly resigned to my own failure, and at worst, I go out of my way to convince others of their hopelessness.

Bond: When I have idle time, I spend it lingering on the border of the Ethereal Plane, gazing longingly into the abyss, searching for something. I know not what.

Scarce
2015-09-18, 12:26 AM
Also, one more (because two posts in a row isn't enough), I decided to retool Primus. Now, the Doctor's rendition wasn't an bad one by any means, in fact it was quite faithful to the original, but I wasn't a fan of the mechanics. They just didn't meld well with 5e. I also rewrote the legend for brevity. Here's my take:

Primus
The One and Prime
3rd Level Vestige

Archive of Law
You have advantage on any Intelligence check made pertaining to laws or written agreements. Additionally, as an action, you can question Primus as to whether or not an action is in accordance with Divine Law, the ultimate structure of the universe. Divine Law appears to be completely unpredictable, as it does not always correspond with any known set of laws, and may itself be beyond mortal comprehension.

Lawful Strike
When you use the Attack action to make a single melee attack, you can deal an additional 1d6 force damage on a hit.

Unyielding Code
While bound to Primus, you are immune to being charmed.

Primus's Decree
You can cast the spell command without using a spell slot. After casting this spell on a creature, you cannot do so again for 24 hours.

Rule of Law
Through Primus, you can issue a divine law as an action to all creatures near you for 1 minute. Select one of the commands from below. Each creature within 30 feet must succeed a Charisma saving throw at the beginning of its turn, or must abide by the rule until the beginning of its next turn.

You must follow the rule that you choose for the entire 1 minute duration. If you break this rule, the effect ends and you take 4d6 psychic damage.


Speed Limit. No creature can willingly move further than 10 feet each round.
Banned School. Specify one school of magic. No creature can cast or concentrate on a spell from this school.
Pacifism. Creatures can make only 1 attack each round.

After using this ability, you must complete a long rest before using it again.

The plane of ultimate law, Mechanus, has existed as long as the multiverse. Its denizens are the geometrical modrons, who possess a massive hierarchy headed by the perfect embodiment of law, Primus. All commands for all modrons filter down from Primus, and so doing, all modrons work toward perfecting the order of the universe.

But the Primus is not eternal. Should any denizen of Mechanus be slain or disobey orders, he is replaced by one of his subordinates, and a new modron is created to fulfill the new vacancy; the Primus is no different.

When the great demon lord Orcus was slain, a shadow named Tenebrous rose in his wake, setting off a chain of events that would nearly destroy the entire multiverse, beginning with Mechanus. The unholy Shadow became a usurper when it came to the Plane of Law and slayed the Primus with the Last Word. Enacting the greatest upheaval the universe has ever known, the Shadow then began The Great Modron March to seek something dear to it.

When at last the shadow had risen again as the demon lord, the Secondus replaced Primus, and the Plane of Law was whole again. Yet the spirit of the old Primus persists, without worship and without dictation or decree, perusing law, even through nonexistance.


When you make a poor pact with Primus, he influences your personality in one of the following ways:

Ideal: There is nothing higher than the Law.

Personality Trait: I am ruthlessly efficient, and evaluate all activities with an eye towards my ultimate goals, brooking no frivolity or distraction.

Submortimer
2015-09-18, 06:39 AM
KOSS first:
So, free shield spell 5 times a day? I think that's pretty powerful. I would probably be replacing this with something more like a free constant mage armor. "While you are unarmored and bound to your Patron Vestige, your armor class is equal to 13 + your dexterity modifier."


I could be alright with that, or with something like "AC is equal to 10 + dex mod + charisma mod" ala the monk.



I'm not against them changing patron vestiges, but I think the way it's implemented is a little boring (though completely serviceable.) What if to change patron vestiges, a binder had to spend 24 hours (or an even longer duration) bound only to the new vestige?


I like that a whole lot. Consider it changed.



Is all martial weapons a little powerful? I think the way I would do it is to offer proficiency with one martial weapon (considered magical) and give a fighter fighting style.


I don't really view weapon proficiencies as a major boost in power. That being said, I want to replace the bit about "all weapons the wield are considered magical" with "you gain a fighting style from the following list: Defensive, GWF, TWF, Protection, Mariner."

I built a Augment that essentially copies the Pact Blade ability of the warlock, and with a bonus augment at level 7, a KOSS shold have access to a bound weapon and extra attack.



My thoughts on Master Occultist:
I would just make this advantage. It requires less math and means you can't stack this benefit with some other advantage on binding.


I suppose I could do that, it would make it easier. Although, I am really curious, do people not like Expertise as an ability? Every time I try to use proficiency bonus for a vestige or class ability, I get about 4 people telling me to change it.



I'm super iffy about half of this one. Revive a body as a free follower? With vestige powers? Under your control? (Without rules to regulate the action economy?) On the other hand I really like the idea of granting one of your allies a lower level vestige! I would be exceptionally cautious with this power, however. I would try it as follows:


At 7th level, you may attempt to bind one of your Occult Speciality vestiges into another willing host (that is not a binder). Make a binding check with disadvantage against a 1st level vestige; success binds the target, failure binds the vestige to yourself with a bad pact. Doing so counts as if you had bound the vestige to yourself, and as such counts against your total levels of bound vestige and number of vestiges bound in a day. After binding 1 vestige in this way, you must complete a long rest before binding another.
You may attempt to bind another creature 10 a vestige of 2nd level or lower at 7th level, 3rd level or lower at 13th level, and 4th level or lower at 17th level.


So, here's something that I don't think you're considering, and something I should have clarified: when you stuff a Vestige in a dead body, the husk is a normal creature of that type, just with one vestige's powers. Unless you have a ready supply of dead bears around (and if you do, what is your hobby?!), that body is gonna be pretty fragile (compared to you or your friends). I really want some form of this in the final build, but maybe severely limited (2nd level or lower vestiges, action economy similar to the Beastmaster, etc.)



I'll take a look at Anima Mage later. As it stands right now, I really like these! I reserve my opinion on whether these hold up better than the Fates, but I'll say that I like KOSS on a thematic level more than warped fate. I was never a big fan of the monster-y, natural attack focused characters from 3.5, so it always rubbed me the wrong way that it was the focus for the melee stuff for this class.

Thanks! And don't get me wrong, the Fates certainly aren't bad, these are just some alternate options.

Scarce
2015-09-18, 02:07 PM
Thought you guys might be interested in seeing this:




Vestige
Converted?
Original Level
New Level


Aym
Y
1st
2nd


Leraje
Y
1st
2nd


Naberius
Y
1st
1st


Ronove
Y
1st
1st


Dahlver-Nar
Y
2nd
1st


Haagenti
Y
2nd
2nd


Malphas
Y
2nd
2nd


Savnok
Y
2nd
4th


Andromalius

3rd



Focalor
Y
3rd
3rd


Karsus
Y
3rd
4th


Paimon
Y
3rd
3rd


Agares

4th



Andras
Y
4th
5th


Buer

4th



Eurynome
Y
4th
4th


Tenebrous
Y
4th
5th


Acererak
Y
5th
7th


Balam

5th



Dantalion
Y
5th
5th


Geryon
Y
5th
6th


Otiax
Y
5th
5th


Chupoclops
Y
6th
6th


Haures
Y
6th
4th


Ipos
Y
2nd
6th


Shax
Y
6th
2nd


Zagan
Y
6th
6th


Eligor
Y
7th
8th


Marchosias
Y
7th
7th


Halphax
Y
8th
9th


Orthos
Y
8th
9th



We're almost done with the ToM vestiges! We're missing Andromalius, Buer, Agares, and Balam. I'm gonna stick Balam in the vacant 8th level hole in the vestige codex and start writing her later tonight. Where should Agares and Buer and Andromalius go? I'm extra unsure about Andromalius, since Malphas is pretty similar.

Vestiges per level currently:


Vestige Level
Number of Vestiges


1st
5


2nd
4


3rd
4


4th
4


5th
4


6th
3


7th
2


8th
1


9th
2

Submortimer
2015-09-18, 02:14 PM
Thought you guys might be interested in seeing this:




Vestige
Converted?
Original Level
New Level


Aym
Y
1st
2nd


Leraje
Y
1st
2nd


Naberius
Y
1st
1st


Ronove
Y
1st
1st


Dahlver-Nar
Y
2nd
1st


Haagenti
Y
2nd
2nd


Malphas
Y
2nd
2nd


Savnok
Y
2nd
4th


Andromalius

3rd



Focalor
Y
3rd
3rd


Karsus
Y
3rd
4th


Paimon
Y
3rd
3rd


Agares

4th



Andras
Y
4th
5th


Buer

4th



Eurynome
Y
4th
4th


Tenebrous
Y
4th
5th


Acererak
Y
5th
7th


Balam

5th



Dantalion
Y
5th
5th


Geryon
Y
5th
6th


Otiax
Y
5th
5th


Chupoclops
Y
6th
6th


Haures
Y
6th
4th


Ipos
Y
2nd
6th


Shax
Y
6th
2nd


Zagan
Y
6th
6th


Eligor
Y
7th
8th


Marchosias
Y
7th
7th


Halphax
Y
8th
9th


Orthos
Y
8th
9th



We're almost done with the ToM vestiges! We're missing Andromalius, Buer, Agares, and Balam. I'm gonna stick Balam in the vacant 8th level hole in the vestige codex and start writing her later tonight. Where should Agares and Buer and Andromalius go? I'm extra unsure about Andromalius, since Malphas is pretty similar.

Vestiges per level currently:


Vestige Level
Number of Vestiges


1st
5


2nd
4


3rd
4


4th
4


5th
4


6th
3


7th
2


8th
1


9th
2



I'll work on Buer and Andromalius today.

Man, we need to pad out the top something fierce.

Scarce
2015-09-19, 01:45 AM
One more down. Balam does pretty well as an 8th level vestige, if I do say so myself.

Balam
The Bitter Angel
8th Level Vestige

Fighting Style
You adopt the following style of fighting as your specialty. You can't take a Fighting Style option more than once, even if you later get to choose again.

Dueling. When you are wielding a melee weapon in one hand and no other weapons, you gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls with that weapon.

Angel's Wings
While bound to Balam, you sprout two grotesque, twisted angel's wings, which nonetheless grant you a fly speed equal to your movement speed.

Balam's Cunning
You can reroll one ability check, attack roll or saving throw as a reaction, and must use the new result, even if it is worse than the original. After using this ability, you must complete a short rest before using it again.

Prescience
As a bonus action, you can gain a glimpse into the immediate future. Until the beginning of your next turn, you have advantage on ability checks and attack rolls. Additionally, creatures have disadvantage on attack rolls against you during this time. After using this feature, you must complete a long rest before using it again.

Binder scholars claim that Balam is all that remains of the soul of a powerful solar. Exactly how she came to exist in her current state remains a mystery, but sources of planar lore state that several good gods tasked her with eliminating the practice of sacrificing sentient beings in the worship of deities. Since such sacrifices are part and parcel of evil rituals, the task amounted to wiping out the worship of evil gods altogetheróa task well beyond what even the good deities could manage. Needless to say, Balam failed in her assignment, and some believe that her foes actually sacrificed her in praise of a dark god.

When you make a poor pact with Balam, she influences your personality in one of the following ways:

Ideal: Noone who represents a god can be trusted. I firmly believe that clerics and paladins spread dangerous lies.

Personality Trait: I oppose the forces of evil on principle, but I oppose the forces of good with a personal vengeance in my heart. Only the truly neutral are spared my wrath.

Scarce
2015-09-19, 02:23 AM
Also, I'm thinking if we need more vestiges to pack the lower levels, I'm thinking about writing Lord Soth and Kyuss (The Worm that Walks) into vestiges.

Prince Zahn
2015-09-19, 02:46 AM
Hey guys I'm afraid I'm not feeling too well lately, sorry for my recent lack of posting. I am keeping track of the thread though and I can answer briefly for now. No more monster posts for a while:smallredface:

I started working on a new setting for myself and eventually my friends once I summon the guts to run a campaign. If it interests you, you are welcome to check it out in my sig or the worldbuilding forum. I might use this class in it if I can find a place for it to it, but I probably won't label them as vestiges And the theme won't be as dark as we tend to like it.

I'll try to get to some vestiges later today if I'm up to it, I implore you to be patient with me right now. I can't get to all of them at once. After I catch up with everything I'll start adding them to the Vestige Codex.

@Scarce that chart is great news! Just be sure to double check and make sure you didn't miss any vestiges.:smallsmile:
Where do you think we should take this project to next, now that we almost completed the ToM vestiges?


In my personal opinion I wish to perfect what we already have, but I'm raising this topic up to democratic discussion: how would you like to continue after we cover all of the Tome of Magic vestiges?

Submortimer
2015-09-19, 06:46 AM
In my personal opinion I wish to perfect what we already have, but I'm raising this topic up to democratic discussion: how would you like to continue after we cover all of the Tome of Magic vestiges?

In case you weren't aware, the majority of the vestiges take their namesakes from Goetic Demonology, the exceptions being characters from D&D lore (Acererack, Asharladon, Kas, etc.). IMO, we should continue that trend; thankfully, there are LOTS of them: 72, in fact.

If you do some reading, you can see where the writers took some liberties: Leraje is still an archer that causes gangreneous wounds with his bow, but Paimon is an OP king of hell, more akin to Asmodeus than what his vestige form is.

I'm going to take a crack as Crocell as a 7th or 8th level vestige (cause we need another one or two of those) to see if I can craft something that feels properly ToM-like

Prince Zahn
2015-09-19, 07:23 AM
In case you weren't aware, the majority of the vestiges take their namesakes from Goetic Demonology, the exceptions being characters from D&D lore (Acererack, Asharladon, Kas, etc.). IMO, we should continue that trend; thankfully, there are LOTS of them.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goetic_demons_in_popular_culture

FTFY.
I am aware of what sources inspired vestige names come from, thank you.

It's not that I mind having lots of new vestiges, quite the contrary, I love it when the project is bustling. I would just like us to also spend some time discussing and improving vestiges that may or may not be less than balanced.
An Alternative approach might be to move official discussion on revisiting old vestiges for the Vestige Codex. Otherwise, I need ideas because I really want us to dedicate some time for building on all the first drafts.

Submortimer
2015-09-19, 07:30 AM
FTFY.

Thanks, I'm on my phone ATM.



An Alternative approach might be to move official discussion on revisiting old vestiges for the Vestige Codex. Otherwise, I need ideas because I really want us to dedicate some time for building on all the first drafts.

Not a bad idea. I'd like to take a shot at editing and formatting everything we already have, and putting it into one cohesive post. The way the Codex is right now (Linking to single posts) is clunky and hard to view on other platforms than a computer (I mostly access from my phone or tablet).

Prince Zahn
2015-09-19, 07:38 AM
Thanks, I'm on my phone ATM.



Not a bad idea. I'd like to take a shot at editing and formatting everything we already have, and putting it into one cohesive post. The way the Codex is right now (Linking to single posts) is clunky and hard to view on other platforms than a computer (I mostly access from my phone or tablet).
Weird, I'm doing it all on my mobile and it never seemed to bother me. But I can understand if your using Mobile viewt might be different.

I don't know about a single, cohesive post, but you are more than welcome to make a Google doc or something and I'll post it up. I understand that those v can be quite popular.

Also, when we are finished enough, not sure exactly when that will be, Scarce volunteered to edit it all into a proper PDF and post it on his blog :smallsmile:

Submortimer
2015-09-19, 08:46 AM
Weird, I'm doing it all on my mobile and it never seemed to bother me. But I can understand if your using Mobile viewt might be different.

I don't know about a single, cohesive post, but you are more than welcome to make a Google doc or something and I'll post it up. I understand that those v can be quite popular.

Also, when we are finished enough, not sure exactly when that will be, Scarce volunteered to edit it all into a proper PDF and post it on his blog :smallsmile:

I'll make something up, see how it strikes you. I'd also like to start compiling and putting in all the seals.

Edit: hell yeah, Scarce! MFoV for the win!

Submortimer
2015-09-19, 09:41 AM
It's not that I mind having lots of new vestiges, quite the contrary, I love it when the project is bustling. I would just like us to also spend some time discussing and improving vestiges that may or may not be less than balanced.

Zahn, I didn't mention this before, but I have a suggestion: Let's get all of the vestiges in that we want (at least all of the original Tome ones), then close off submission for a while. After that point, we can shift focus to editing, playtesting, and balancing. I think we had mentioned that we wanted roughly 4 vestiges per level; with the 4 that we have left to make, that only leaves a couple till we get to that number.

The Giant
2015-09-19, 02:24 PM
I hate to butt into your project, but I got to this thread through administrative means and noticed a flaw in your class that I thought I should point out.

According to the wording of the Adamant Mind ability, it is trivially easy for a 9th level Binder to become immune to mind control for 30 days at a time the moment he gets that power. All he needs is an allied 9th level wizard or cleric of the same level who can cast the spell Geas. On a day when the pair are resting in the inn, the wizard-or-cleric prepares Geas as many times as they can, then repeatedly casts it on the binder with a command to, say, not eat potato soup left-handed. If the binder fails their save, the wizard-or-cleric dismisses the Geas. If the binder makes their save, they're immune to mind control spells for the duration of the Geas...which is 30 days. This gets worse when the wizard-or-cleric gets 7th-level spell slots, when the duration becomes 1 year, and much worse when they get 9th level slots, when the duration becomes permanent.

I would suggest putting a cap on how long of a time period the immunity can last, probably "until your next short or long rest," which would cover the rest of the same encounter and maybe the next oneóenough for most normal scenarios.

The_Doctor
2015-09-19, 03:44 PM
Holy giants, Batman!

Seriously though. "Butting in?" We are honored by your presence.

Scarce
2015-09-19, 03:52 PM
So we have options where we can go with more vestiges, if we need them, but I'm totally fine having only two vestiges at levels 7, 8, and 9. There should be fewer vestiges at higher levels because this represents a trade of versatility for power.

Right now, I think we can call submissions closed (plus or minus, the inclusion of Buer and Andromalius.) I would love to simultaneously focus on subclasses and balancing the vestiges on a macro-scale. My immediate goals look like this:

1. Decide if we're using Submortimer's or Zahn's subclasses. This should be done in a civil fashion, and with the good of the class in mind. (I know that noone likes have their ideas passed up on, but it's unavoidable.) My recommendation would be to do some sort of vote among Submortimer, Zahn, Spirah, the Doctor, and myself.

2. Finalize the subclasses we're using. Neither set is properly finished, but we should decide which one we see to completion.

3. Balance the vestiges on a level-by-level basis, keeping the entire class in mind as we do so. This step should involve each of us building at least 2 binders on paper of different levels, and comparing the power against another classes of the same level. This should give us idea the power each level should have, along with hinting if we should allow a binder to have more or fewer vestiges at a time.

4. Rebalancing errant vestiges one-by-one. Savnok isn't powerful enough for 4th level, Dahlver-Nar needs a close look compared to the other 1st level vestiges, and it's hard to say if either version of Primus belongs at 3rd.

5. Deciding on the proper phrasing for effects. The Final Version of this class should feel like it was written by Wizards of the Coast, so it's important that we decide on a particular way to say "once per short rest" and whether or not we capitalize 'armor class'. These things seem silly, but they're really important for presentation, and we should decide on them before I begin the PDF.



According to the wording of the Adamant Mind ability, it is trivially easy for a 9th level Binder to become immune to mind control for 30 days at a time the moment he gets that power. All he needs is an allied 9th level wizard or cleric of the same level who can cast the spell Geas. On a day when the pair are resting in the inn, the wizard-or-cleric prepares Geas as many times as they can, then repeatedly casts it on the binder with a command to, say, not eat potato soup left-handed. If the binder fails their save, the wizard-or-cleric dismisses the Geas. If the binder makes their save, they're immune to mind control spells for the duration of the Geas...which is 30 days. This gets worse when the wizard-or-cleric gets 7th-level spell slots, when the duration becomes 1 year, and much worse when they get 9th level slots, when the duration becomes permanent.

I would suggest putting a cap on how long of a time period the immunity can last, probably "until your next short or long rest," which would cover the rest of the same encounter and maybe the next oneóenough for most normal scenarios.
That's... a really good note. I'm almost terrified of how many other flawed mechanics might be lying in wait among the dozens of vestiges we've created.

Submortimer
2015-09-19, 04:46 PM
So we have options where we can go with more vestiges, if we need them, but I'm totally fine having only two vestiges at levels 7, 8, and 9. There should be fewer vestiges at higher levels because this represents a trade of versatility for power.

Right now, I think we can call submissions closed (plus or minus, the inclusion of Buer and Andromalius.) I would love to simultaneously focus on subclasses and balancing the vestiges on a macro-scale. My immediate goals look like this:

1. Decide if we're using Submortimer's or Zahn's subclasses. This should be done in a civil fashion, and with the good of the class in mind. (I know that noone likes have their ideas passed up on, but it's unavoidable.) My recommendation would be to do some sort of vote among Submortimer, Zahn, Spirah, the Doctor, and myself.

2. Finalize the subclasses we're using. Neither set is properly finished, but we should decide which one we see to completion.

3. Balance the vestiges on a level-by-level basis, keeping the entire class in mind as we do so. This step should involve each of us building at least 2 binders on paper of different levels, and comparing the power against another classes of the same level. This should give us idea the power each level should have, along with hinting if we should allow a binder to have more or fewer vestiges at a time.

4. Rebalancing errant vestiges one-by-one. Savnok isn't powerful enough for 4th level, Dahlver-Nar needs a close look compared to the other 1st level vestiges, and it's hard to say if either version of Primus belongs at 3rd.

5. Deciding on the proper phrasing for effects. The Final Version of this class should feel like it was written by Wizards of the Coast, so it's important that we decide on a particular way to say "once per short rest" and whether or not we capitalize 'armor class'. These things seem silly, but they're really important for presentation, and we should decide on them before I begin the PDF.


That's... a really good note. I'm almost terrified of how many other flawed mechanics might be lying in wait among the dozens of vestiges we've created.


As far as the subclasses go...is there any reason (aside from more work) that we couldn't balance and present all six (more likely 5, since Anima Mage and Awakened Fate are both spellcasters)? While I know the gold standard is three, there are several classes that have fewer (Sorc, Barb, Ranger) and at least one that has many more (Cleric). I'm not trying to be contrary of force my stuff, I just don't want to dump good ideas on the basis of meeting some unofficial standard.

Also, there are likely a million things that will break the game with the vestiges. that's what the editing step is for ;-)

Prince Zahn
2015-09-20, 03:15 AM
I'd also like to start compiling and putting in all the seals. help yourself. I couldn't find all of the seals l when I did a Google search.


I hate to butt into your project, but I got to this thread through administrative means and noticed a flaw in your class that I thought I should point out.

According to the wording of the Adamant Mind ability, it is trivially easy for a 9th level Binder to become immune to mind control for 30 days at a time the moment he gets that power. All he needs is an allied 9th level wizard or cleric of the same level who can cast the spell Geas. On a day when the pair are resting in the inn, the wizard-or-cleric prepares Geas as many times as they can, then repeatedly casts it on the binder with a command to, say, not eat potato soup left-handed. If the binder fails their save, the wizard-or-cleric dismisses the Geas. If the binder makes their save, they're immune to mind control spells for the duration of the Geas...which is 30 days. This gets worse when the wizard-or-cleric gets 7th-level spell slots, when the duration becomes 1 year, and much worse when they get 9th level slots, when the duration becomes permanent.

I would suggest putting a cap on how long of a time period the immunity can last, probably "until your next short or long rest," which would cover the rest of the same encounter and maybe the next oneóenough for most normal scenarios.you are correct for interrupting the project. This is indeed an urgent flaw. I'll correct it ASAP.


So we have options where we can go with more vestiges, if we need them, but I'm totally fine having only two vestiges at levels 7, 8, and 9. There should be fewer vestiges at higher levels because this represents a trade of versatility for power.

Right now, I think we can call submissions closed (plus or minus, the inclusion of Buer and Andromalius.) I would love to simultaneously focus on subclasses and balancing the vestiges on a macro-scale. My immediate goals look like this: I think 3, 3 and 2 vestiges would be ideal for levels 7th, 8th and 9th, respectively. If we wind up having too many, we'll find another place for them.


1. Decide if we're using Submortimer's or Zahn's subclasses. This should be done in a civil fashion, and with the good of the class in mind. (I know that noone likes have their ideas passed up on, but it's unavoidable.) My recommendation would be to do some sort of vote among Submortimer, Zahn, Spirah, the Doctor, and myself. The Binder Fates will remain where they are. The way I see it, we can make room for all of submortimer's subclasses under the label "Expanded", so that anyone who wants more can take it. While I'm at it, I think I'll change the label of Misc. Vestiges to "Expanded Vestiges" as well. I think the term has a better connotation.


2. Finalize the subclasses we're using. Neither set is properly finished, but we should decide which one we see to completion.As I said, I have no issue having a set and an expansion, or alternate set. The fates are my project, the KoSS/AM/MO trio are under Mortimer's management. We will work on them In tandem and/or alternate between the two sets as convenient.


3. Balance the vestiges on a level-by-level basis, keeping the entire class in mind as we do so. This step should involve each of us building at least 2 binders on paper of different levels, and comparing the power against another classes of the same level. This should give us idea the power each level should have, along with hinting if we should allow a binder to have more or fewer vestiges at a time.I agree with this. In top of adventuring with the class, we might also need a more controlled testing phase.


4. Rebalancing errant vestiges one-by-one. Savnok isn't powerful enough for 4th level, Dahlver-Nar needs a close look compared to the other 1st level vestiges, and it's hard to say if either version of Primus belongs at 3rd. yes to all of that.


5. Deciding on the proper phrasing for effects. The Final Version of this class should feel like it was written by Wizards of the Coast, so it's important that we decide on a particular way to say "once per short rest" and whether or not we capitalize 'armor class'. These things seem silly, but they're really important for presentation, and we should decide on them before I begin the PDF. I think the best way to do this is to compare the terms to how they are used in the player's handbook. But there is are concerns over how the roll to bind a vestige ought to be labeled. But that is not a debate for today. Please, not today.



That's... a really good note. I'm almost terrified of how many other flawed mechanics might be lying in wait among the dozens of vestiges we've created.


As far as the subclasses go...is there any reason (aside from more work) that we couldn't balance and present all six (more likely 5, since Anima Mage and Awakened Fate are both spellcasters)? While I know the gold standard is three, there are several classes that have fewer (Sorc, Barb, Ranger) and at least one that has many more (Cleric). I'm not trying to be contrary of force my stuff, I just don't want to dump good ideas on the basis of meeting some unofficial standard.

Also, there are likely a million things that will break the game with the vestiges. that's what the editing step is for ;-)the Wizard alone has 8(!!) subclasses in the PHB, And there's more coming, according to what we see in Unearthed Arcana. While I'm not saying we should be making even MORE subclasses that step on each other's toes, it's not an obscene amount. If You have too much in 1 PDF, @Scarce, we could divide some things, cut corners. More subclasses tends to be compensated with a smaller chassis, so we should consider slimming the class list.

The_Doctor
2015-09-20, 09:21 AM
@Zahn: I'm compiling a list of all vestiges we have created.

"But Doctor, that's the vestige codex!" I hear you cry.

But I don't just mean links, as you have; I'm going to find all the ACTUAL vestiges in their most completed form (as I see it), and I'm not going to separate them based on whether they were in the book or not. (If you haven't guessed, I'm doing this so we don't have to constantly open different links-- laziness FTW!)

For now, have the first level vestiges:



AMON
The Void Before The Altar
1st Level vestige:
DC: 15
Seal:
Sign: You grow a set of curling ram-like horns on your head.
Manifestation:


PROFICIENCIES
Languages: Choose either Celestial or Infernal

DARKVISION
You can see dim light within 60 feet as if it were bright light, and in darkness as if it were dim light. You cannot discern color in darkness, only shades of gray.

ANCIENT RIVALRY
You have advantage on all ability check and attack roll contests made against another binder. When you reach 13th level, the benefits of this ability also apply to contest rolls made against Aberrations, Celestials, Fey, Fiends or undead, as well as mortals possessed by these creatures or have ever formed a pact with them.

BREATHE FIRE
When you breathe, flames churn within your lungs, eager to be let loose upon your foes. You can use your action to exhale a 15-foot cone of fire from your mouth, any creature caught within the fire takes 1d6 fire damage or takes half as much if it makes a successful Dexterity saving throw. alternatively, you can hold your breath for up to 2 rounds, each round you hold your fiery breath increases the damage of this feature (as noted on the table below)(in which case you exhale the fiery breathe on your 3rd round as an action) holding your breathe in this way requires concentration. Your breath also ignites any flammable objects that are not being worn or carried. Trying to hold your fiery breath for longer than 2 rounds results in a smokey cough fit, ending your effect and dealing you 1d8 points of fire damage. Fire resistance and immunity does not affect fire damage you inflict upon yourself by holding your breath longer than 2 rounds.
Starting at 6th level, and again at 14th level, the damage you inflict with Breathe Fire (as well as the damage increase from holding your breathe) increases as (as indicated on the table below:
DAMAGE - BREATHE FIRE


Level\Time holding breath
1 action
1 round
2 rounds


1st
1d6
1d6+1d8
1d6+3d8


6th
2d6
2d6+2d8
2d6+5d8


14th
4d6
4d6+3d8
4d6+9d8



RAM ATTACK
The horns granted to you by Amon are strong and sturdy. You can use the horns on your head as a melee weapon which you are proficient with. Your horns deal 1d8 bludgeoning damage, plus your strength modifier. You have advantage on your attack roll if you move at least 10 feet in a straight line right before attacking the target. You must bear Amon's sign to use this feature.

CALL OF GRIM VALOR
As an action, Amon let's you sound the horns on your head, making for an eerie battle cry. Any enemies within 30 must succeed on a wisdom saving throw or become frightened for 1d4 rounds, and your melee weapon attacks against frightened creatures deal an additional 1d6 damage for the duration. Once you have used this feature, you can not use it again until you have completed a short or long rest. You must bear Amon's sign to use this feature.

RETRIBUTION
Amon is a spiteful vestige who harms those who attack you, Whenever you are hit and dealt damage from an attack by a creature you can see that is within your reach, you can use your reaction to force the attacking creature to take 1d4+1 damage per 2 dice of damage you received from that attack (maximum 10d4+10). The type of damage you deal is the same type as the damage that triggered this feature (if there are multiple types of damage, you decide which of those types to use).

PACT INFORMATION:
Ancient texts suggest that Amon is what little remains of an ancient deity who died a millennia ago. In his prime, Amon had been worshipped by thousands, but but he gradually lost his power, as his followers converted to more responsive deities. Through sheer willpower alone he escaped eternal rest in the astral planes, and his soul found refuge in the outer planes, where the soul of this once mighty god of light and law deformed into a foul and hateful spirit.
Amon hates everyone and everything, and demands for you to spread fear and discord among the people. And beckons you to weaponize chaos and destruction. A binder tempted by his words has disadvantage on charisma checks to bind Amon. On the same token, his Demi-existence in the far realms of existence has made him very gullible, and pacts with Amon that are built on lies are made with advantage.

If you make a poor pact with Amon, he influences your personality in one or both of the following ways:


Influence
Description


Personality Trait
I have a naturally foul temper.


Ideal
Anarchy. I strongly disapprove of the leading faith(s) and/or faction(s), and perhaps even the ruler.



Aoskar
The Flayed God
1st Level Vestige

Divine Influence
You can cast the cantrips message, sacred flame, and thaumaturgy at will.

Dimensional Leap
Aoskar has opened the doors of reality to you. As an action on your turn, you can teleport a distance up to half you movement speed to a location you can see. If you teleport into a space that is already occupied by an object or creature, you take force damage equal to the number of feet traveled and are shunted to the nearest unoccupied location.

Teleport Without Error
When you teleport, you arrive at your destination without error (though those teleporting with you may not.)

Protection from Evil and Good
You can cast the spell protection from evil and good without expending a spell slot. After casting this spell, you must complete a short or long rest before using it again.

Aoskar is perhaps the most infamous deity in Sigil; once coming close to calling that city home, now he is forgotten by nearly all, and those that do still know his name almost always know him only as a cautionary tale, a story of the fate that would befall all deities that would seek to unseat the Lady of Pain.

Though most records of Aoskar were lost in the Lady's destruction, it is well-known that he was once a lesser deity of Portals. He was quick to see the potential of the planar metropolis, even then known as the City of Doors, and began to enact plans to exploit from beyond its walls. Binder lore holds that he attempted this through his followers, who embedded short rituals to Aoskar into many of the city's portals. With time, his fellowship grew, and when the Temple of Doors was erected, almost half of the people of Sigil worshipped Aoskar though these rituals.

Aoskar's plan was to use the power of his followers to grant himself full-godhood, and more importantly, access to the city. When the Lady discovered this, her vengeance was swift and brutal. Overnight, the Temple of Doors and all those buildings for blocks around it were destroyed by a force unknown and unseen mid-sermon, all worshippers within those bounds killed in a single horrible instant. Aoskar vanished, responding to none, and it was not for centuries hence that his godcorpse was found in the Astral, head impaled with a multitude of blades.

Today, the rule follows from Aoskar's cautionary tale: "No Gods in the Cage."

When you make a poor pact with Aoskar, he influences your personality in one of the following ways:


Flaw: I become paranoid at the mention of gods or worship, shake nervously around tall women, and become catatonic at the sight of a cage.

Bond: I go out of my way to protect travelers who are far from home, though I am hesitant to protect women.

Banjo
Avatar of Puppets
1st Level vestige
Sign: One of your hands has a green hand puppet in the likeness of a clown attached to it. The clown is holding a banjo, and it is perpetually strumming. It can be passed off as a normal hand puppet, or taken off and hidden.
Manifestation: Kneeling in front of the circle of Banjo you hear a strange strumming noise as the song starts up. This banjo music has been known to cause grown men to wince and panic as it strikes some strange chord within them. An irresistible urge to place one's arm within the summoning circle arises and Banjo appears on the end of the binders arm strumming his banjo with an evil look in his eye. Negotiations are very often swift with the binder promising to find Banjo worshipers and to promote the agenda of puppets. Withdrawing the arm Banjo exits his sign and becomes mostly a simple hand puppet.
Granted Abilities:
Banjelic Seduction: While you use Banjo as a ventriloquist puppet (even if it is blatantly obvious it is you) you gain a bonus to all Charisma based checks equal to half your proficiency bonus.
Friends in High Places: All gods love Banjo, even if they don't know it. Whenever you would be reduced below 0 hitpoints by a spell or other effect that allows a saving throw, you are allowed one reroll on your saving throw. When you would be reduced below 0 by a weapon or other damage, the damage is rerolled and the lower number is used. Once you have used this feature you can't use it again until you finish a long rest.
Chords of Terror: Once per short rest as an action, you can cause fear in those within 30 feet. Those in range must make a Wisdom saving throw (DC 8+Proficiency bonus+charisma modifier) or be stunned for one round. For some reason, males take a -1 penalty to the saving throw.
Wrath of Banjo: Once per long rest, you can use the Paladin's "Divine Smite" ability.
PACT INFORMATION: The mystery of the cult of Banjo has been lost to the mists of time. But it was said that a powerful and charismatic bard inspired a song so perfect that his banjo became sentient to carry on the song for all time. The song's pure dulcet tones inspired worship from all who heard its sweet melody and raised the instrument to divinity. Using a small hand puppet to personify a banjo player and to be its avatar, Banjo went on to gather followers across the world. However due to a horrible fragmenting of the religion and defections from within, and a faulty coffee maker, Banjo's worship fell. At last no one was left but the bard who originally inspired the song, and even he forgot Banjo in pursuit of something shiny.
Dahvler-Nar
The Tortured One
1st Level vestige
Sign: Several teeth grow from your scalp. Though they are small enough to be hidden by a large quantity of hair or a hat, a touch reveals them immediately.
Manifestation: Dahlver-Narís frightful apparition floats in the air above his seal, with arms and legs hanging limply. Teeth and fangs of all kinds stud his entire body, replacing even his eyes. What skin is visible between the teeth appears to be the moist, pink flesh of gums. Dahlver-Narís mouth is a bloody ruin that clearly lacks teeth, and when he opens it to speak, only a moan issues forth. Some binders believe that his vestige form is a punishment inflicted by the other vestiges, but others insist that he appears as he does because of his everlasting obsession with the teeth that bear his name.
Granted Abilities:
PROFICIENCIES
You gain no proficiencies from binding Dahlver-Nar.

Mad Soul: You have advantage on saving throws against effects that would deal psychic damage.

Maddening Moan: Once per short rest you can, as an action, emit a moan that causes all creatures within 30 feet to make a Wisdom saving throw or be stunned for 1 round and take 1d6 thunder and psychic damage.

Natural Armor: You gain a bonus to your base AC equal to half your Constitution modifier.

Shield Self: As an action on your turn, you can designate one target within 30 feet to recieve half the damage that you take. Therefore you only take half damage from attacks, and the target takes the other half. If you designate a different creature, the first creature is released from this power's effects. An unwilling target can make a Charisma saving throw to negate the effect.

PACT INFORMATION:
Bards tell two stories of Dahlver-Nar, both linked to the magic items that carry his nameóthe teeth of Dahlver-Nar. Some say that because Dahlver-Nar was antiquityís most powerful cleric, his followers treated his teeth as holy relics after his death and they somehow gained magical powers through this veneration. Others insist that Dahlver-Nar was a cleric of little consequence who discovered some magic dragon teeth in the ruins of a red dragonís lair. In this version of the story, the teeth were named after Dahlver-Nar because he became a terror in the region where he acquired them. Binder scholars know a different storyóthat Dahlver-Nar was a powerful cleric who forsook his deity to pursue the power of pact magic. The fabled teeth of Dahlver-Nar, to which all the legends attribute miraculous powers, were neither his own nor those of the dragon he battled. They were the teeth of beings that became vestiges after death, and they could grant abilities similar to those that the vestiges themselves imparted. Pact magic treatises relate that Dahlver-Nar pulled out his own teeth and replaced them with those of the vestiges, but that using them all drove him mad. What happened thereafter is a matter of debate, but the texts maintain that Dahlver-Nar eventually died, and the teeth were lost, divided up among the squabbling followers he had managed to gain and then spread across the world. Today, Dahlver-Nar exists as a vestige in his own rightóperhaps brought to that state through his close association with so many others.

NABERIUS
The Grinning Hound
1st Level Vestige
Seal: A carefully drawn hand or paw-shaped symbol, facing your left with claws leaning in your direction, and various circles drawn across the seal - notably three on the right side that appear to resemble the claw's joints. sages believe the circles actually hint towards the many secrets he hides, and the power they place within his grasp.
Sign: your voice deepens and sounds hoarse, and you tone often seems to more harsh and intimidating than normal.
Manifestation:

PROFICIENCIES:
Tools: One type of artisan's tools of your choice.

LEVERAGE
You have advantage on all Intelligence and Charisma checks made to deliver, discover or withhold potentially useful information.

NOBLE BLOODHOUND
You can spend 1 round to "sniff out" the general direction of, and proximity of the highest authority figure (or one of them), or most influential figure in a group of creatures within 100 feet for the round. Doing so requires an intelligence(Investigation) check contested by the creature's Dexterity (stealth) check. This ability works around corners, but powerful odors or magical effects might mislead or block this unique sense. You can continue to track the leading creature for another round by spending 1 action concentrating on the sense.

NABERIUS'S SNARL
You gain the Vicious Mockery cantrip, and can cast it at will.

DISGUISE SELF You can cast Disguise Self without expending a spell slot. Casting the spell in this fashion requires 1 minute.

PERSUASIVE WORDS
You can cast Command without expending a spell slot. You cast it as if using a spell slot of the highest level vestige you have bound. At 14th level, you can instead cast Suggestion in the same fashion if you are also bound to a vestige that is 3rd level or higher. Once this ability in either method, you can not do so again until you have completed a long rest.

PACT INFORMATION:
Very little is known about Naberius, as folklore leads to various potential origins. He does not answer questions regarding his legend, instead giving only a sly smile when being questioned. That being said, Naberius does not like to be interrupted, and such lack of respect imposes disadvantage on Charisma checks when binding him. With that in mind, Naberius enjoys hearing secrets, mischief and gossip, and telling him one of your upkept secrets can often please him, assuming you have not told this information to him before.
If you make a poor pact with Naberius, he influences your personality in one or both of the following ways:



Influence


Personality Trait
I relish the sound of my voice, and how sophisticated I sound. I can enjoy it for hours.


Personality Trait:
I'd take any opportunity to speak to large groups, and I will not willingly share it.



RONOVE
The Iron Maiden
1st Level Vestige
Bind DC: 14

Special Requirement: Ronoveís seal must be drawn in the soil under the sky.

Legend: In life, Ronove was a charismatic guru who taught that enlightenment comes from denialófirst of the needs of the flesh, then of the perceived limits of reality, and lastly of the rules of reality. Her frequent demonstrations of power served to illustrate the validity of her ideas to others. She leapt from cliffs without harm, lifted boulders with her thoughts, and lived for months without eating or drinking. Although Ronove gathered many followers, not one of her disciples could manage her great feats. Some began to question her methods.

To prove the veracity of her teachings, Ronove entombed herself underground in an iron coffin, telling her students to dig her up only when they received a sign from her. However, years passed without a sign, and her followers dwindled, leaving only one. Disillusioned, he dug up the coffin. Finding it empty, he told the other former disciples of what had happened, but none believed him, and Ronove and her nameless follower faded into obscurity.

Sign: Your face settles into a frown if you succeeded on your binding check, or a smile if you failed.

Manifestation: The ground quakes, and a rusted iron sarcophagus erupts from the earth within her seal, shedding dirt and flakes of rust as it grates upward. The metal visage of a human woman is discernible on the lid. The metal bindings holding the lid closed burst in clouds of corroded metal, and the sarcophagus creaks open, releasing a tumble of human bones and noisome black liquid. Ronove does not speak to her summoner, but the visage on the lid smiles or frowns during the pact-making process.

Abilities:

Magic Attacks: Your unarmed strikes count as magic weapons for purposes of overcoming resistance or immunity to weapon damage.

Far Hand: You can manipulate distant objects using invisible force. As an action, you can summon an invisible force, which functions similarly to Mage Hand, but with the following differences:
- The hand's maximum carry weight is equal to 10 pounds per Binder level you possess.
- You can command the hand as a bonus action rather than an action, except when using it to manipulate or use an object in a way that would take you an action to do so.
- You still cannot move creatures, but can instead push them with the force in the round you summon it, or as an action in a subsequent round. This deals 1d6 Force damage, and the target must make a Strength save against your Binder save DC. If it fails, you push it 10 feet in a direction you choose. Afterwards, the force dissipates, and you must use an action to summon it again. At 7th level, you deal 2d6 Force damage, and also knock the creature prone if it fails its save. At 14th level, this ability further improves, dealing 3d6 Force damage and allowing you to cast Telekinesis once per short rest.

Feather Fall: You can cast Feather Fall at will.

Ronoveís Fists: You can use Dexterity instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls of your unarmed strikes, and you can deal Martial Arts damage with your unarmed strikes as though you were a Monk of your Binder level.

Sprint: You gain +10ft to your base speed.

Ronoveís Endurance: While bound to Ronove, you only need to eat, drink, and sleep one-third as often as normal.
You also treat your level of exhaustion as being one less than it actually is, and thus suffer no penalties until you have received two levels of exhaustion.



Influence:



Ideal:
Despite what anyone says, you feel the need to prove your worth.


Personality Trait:
You cannot eat or drink (including potions) while you remain bound to Ronove.


@The Giant: and in this very spoiler I present my vestige of Banjo.

Scarce
2015-09-20, 11:34 AM
the Wizard alone has 8(!!) subclasses in the PHB, And there's more coming, according to what we see in Unearthed Arcana. While I'm not saying we should be making even MORE subclasses that step on each other's toes, it's not an obscene amount. If You have too much in 1 PDF,

we could divide some things, cut corners. More subclasses tends to be compensated with a smaller chassis, so we should consider slimming the class list.
My reasons for thinking we should focus in on just some of the subclasses is not because of length, it's because they diverge thematically. I'm of two minds about which set of thematics speaks to the binder class better. On one hand, the fates have an overarching name, similar to bard colleges, paladin oaths, or wizard school. I love this thematic unifying aspect and it is very much a feature of 5e. On the other hand, Submortimer's classes are free of the 'Fate' thing in name and in theme, allowing them to breathe a little more freely, to a result which I like. This results in each group of subclasses having different thematic scopes, where it seems that Zahn's are limited to a way of being things (be a monster thing, be ethereal), Submortimer's are about a way of doing things (being good at binding vestiges, being good at fighting). This divide will likely be too much for a prospective player and I don't want to offer the non-canon resources in the core document, as it will confuse players as to what is actually included in this class.

Even though I love each group for different ways, I am against releasing 5 or more subclasses, simply because it presents a new player with too much information to consider. It's true that we might face this problem with new players approaching the class in general, and this is the very reason I asked Zahn to include a summary sentence with each entry into the codex; to speed up the rate in which someone can skim over the vestiges.

My official recommendation for the subclasses is that we should have 4: Knight of the Sacred Seal, Warped Fate, Master Occultist, and Anima Mage / Awakened Fate. I think Unfettered feels too niche. Thematically, it's some of the powers you get from Haures and Chupoclops and feels like its features should be rolled back in to vestiges. Also, I think we should rename all of Submortimer's fates to fit the "Fate" archetype naming scheme, so we can preserve that particular awesomeness.

- - -

On Length in General: I don't plan on physically printing this in a splatbook when we're done, so physical length is basically unlimited, but information density is really important if you want someone to be able to read things. This is both for playability (finding information quickly is paramount in a game), and to avoid making Olympic attention spans a requirement. That being said, I might continue to re-release some vestiges written by others with edits made purely for length and brevity.

The_Doctor
2015-09-20, 01:14 PM
Hmm...

The Soldier's Fate (Knight of the Sacred Seal)

The Scholar's Fate (Master Occultist)

The Mage's Fate (Anima Mage)

And why not do it for the rest...


The Traveller's Fate (Unfettered Fate)

The Fate of the Talented (Awakened Fate)

The Monster's Fate (Warped fate)

Submortimer
2015-09-20, 03:20 PM
I had a thought, stemming from Zahn mentioning how they had thought Cults would be a good naming convention for the subclasses: Orders.

My thought process: The vestige's stem from Goetic Magic texts. In the real world, "magicians" collected themselves into Orders (Example: Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn). Binders could be much the same, being much more akin to traditional Occultists than wizards are. So, my suggestions:

KOSS = Order of the Seal
WF = Order of the Sign
AM = Order of the Animus
TF = Order of the Soul
MO = Order of the Circle

I completely feel that Anima Mage and Awakened Mind should be melded and/or select one over the other, Unless you all feel that they are distinct enough to keep them separate.

If you want to maintain the Fate naming convention, my suggestions for mine are:

KOSS: Sealed Fate (KOSS work for their Vestige)
MO: Bound Fate (MO work with their vestige)
AM: Shackled Fate (AM makes their vestiges work for them)

Scarce
2015-09-20, 03:55 PM
KOSS = Order of the Seal
WF = Order of the Sign
AM = Order of the Animus
TF = Order of the Soul
MO = Order of the Circle

I'm like 1000% behind this naming scheme (even though I'm still hoping Unfettered kinda goes away by the final draft.) I would probably go with
KOSS: Order of the Sacred Seal
and
WF: Order of the Twisted
to keep confusion down.

Submortimer
2015-09-20, 07:42 PM
I'm like 1000% behind this naming scheme (even though I'm still hoping Unfettered kinda goes away by the final draft.) I would probably go with
KOSS: Order of the Sacred Seal
and
WF: Order of the Twisted
to keep confusion down.

Alright, how do these hit you (assuming we keep Unfettered, I am assuming we are till further notice.)

KOSS = Order of the Sacred Seal
WF = Order of the Warped Flesh
UF = Order of the Transcendent Soul
AF/AM = Order of the Awakened Mind
MO = Order of the Adamant Circle

The_Doctor
2015-09-20, 08:43 PM
Now why do those all sound like ToB disciplines...

Scarce
2015-09-20, 10:19 PM
Now why do those all sound like ToB disciplines...
**One sudden, lucid flashback to my 3.5 Warblade later...**

You might have a point. For right now, though I think it's good. I'm not comfortable having the naming scheme set in stone, since we might think up something really good later, but I'm totally down with this.

I'm gonna try to build some binders soon. I'm gonna start with 3rd level binders, and just see how the binder compares against other characters in major categories: HP, AC, damage output, out of combat utility, and versatility of options. From there, I'll hopefully see if there are any dangerous low-level synergies with the vestiges, and if the power needs to go up or down.
EDIT: Before I do so, I would love if Submortimer could re-release the Master Occultist and Knight of the Sacred Seal with any changes that have been implemented since they were first presented. That's gonna make my job a lot easier.

Submortimer
2015-09-20, 10:54 PM
**One sudden, lucid flashback to my 3.5 Warblade later...**

You might have a point. For right now, though I think it's good. I'm not comfortable having the naming scheme set in stone, since we might think up something really good later, but I'm totally down with this.

I'm gonna try to build some binders soon. I'm gonna start with 3rd level binders, and just see how the binder compares against other characters in major categories: HP, AC, damage output, out of combat utility, and versatility of options. From there, I'll hopefully see if there are any dangerous low-level synergies with the vestiges, and if the power needs to go up or down.
EDIT: Before I do so, I would love if Submortimer could re-release the Master Occultist and Knight of the Sacred Seal with any changes that have been implemented since they were first presented. That's gonna make my job a lot easier.

Will do. I'll also re-release the Anima Magus/Awakened Fate.

Prince Zahn
2015-09-21, 12:45 AM
Wow I missed a lot.

Are you guys aware that after removing Anaximander's fates we would have undone all the highlights of his contributions? I'd feel horrible for scrapping it on a whim. Are you going to do that with my contributions too if I disappeared?

I would rather we tried to modify the unfettered binder before we outright decide it needs to be scrapped. Besides, we currently have a player who's already playtesting the subclass.

Meanwhile, I don't as big a problem bridging parallels between the awakened binder and anima mage. Thematically speaking, "awakened" is a more streamlined name for it. We just have to agree on spellcasting.

Personally, I am more fond of associating Binders with cults than with orders, majorly for the sake of getting a different connotation. All of this Assuming we absolutely HAVE to change a perfectly good name.

The idea behind fates, from what I remember of Anaximander's talk at the time, was to use it as mechanical paths that thematically show what becomes of binders when they delve deeply into pact magic. The unfettered gradually becomes nonexistant, the warped (at least now) undergoes a gradual of process of mutation. I don't remember much about the awakened binder though, mea culpa.

Submortimer
2015-09-21, 01:26 AM
Wow I missed a lot.

Are you guys aware that after removing Anaximander's fates we would have undone all the highlights of his contributions? I'd feel horrible for scrapping it on a whim. Are you going to do that with my contributions too if I disappeared?

I would rather we tried to modify the unfettered binder before we outright decide it needs to be scrapped. Besides, we currently have a player who's already playtesting the subclass.

Meanwhile, I don't as big a problem bridging parallels between the awakened binder and anima mage. Thematically speaking, "awakened" is a more streamlined name for it. We just have to agree on spellcasting.

Personally, I am more fond of associating Binders with cults than with orders, majorly for the sake of getting a different connotation. All of this Assuming we absolutely HAVE to change a perfectly good name.

The idea behind fates, from what I remember of Anaximander's talk at the time, was to use it as mechanical paths that thematically show what becomes of binders when they delve deeply into pact magic. The unfettered gradually becomes nonexistant, the warped (at least now) undergoes a gradual of process of mutation. I don't remember much about the awakened binder though, mea culpa.

- Zahn, I wouldn't worry about who's contributions make it into the final project; we all worked on it in some format, we're all gonna get credit. I'm sure if Anaximander wanted to make sure everything he did would be kept, he would have maintained control of the project; it's the nature of a large, collaborative project.

- I'm not specifically looking to scrap the Unfettered, you'll have to take that up with Scarce privately.

- For some reason, the term Cult leaves an odd taste in my mouth. Im not saying it's not a good term for a set of subclasses, but the term "Cult" tends to have a religious connotations or revolve around worship of a god of some sort. While a small subset of Binders may view vestiges as gods or godlings, they are often (as in the case of Amon) vestiges precisely because no one worships them. I would much rather go with Orders or Fates, with the different Orders denoting the specific ways and manners in which they bind (which would be more appropriate in a vestige-heavy game), and Fates denoting, as you said, what happens to a binder as they delve deeper into true pact magic (Which would be more appropriate to a vestige-light game).

- I'm about to put up edited versions of my Subclasses along with the Pact augmentations I made. I'm going to combine the Awakend Fate and Anima Mage in a way that makes sense, especially considering that the Awakened Fate isn't finished yet.

Scarce
2015-09-21, 01:56 AM
Are you guys aware that after removing Anaximander's fates we would have undone all the highlights of his contributions? I'd feel horrible for scrapping it on a whim. Are you going to do that with my contributions too if I disappeared?

I fully expect this project to change and evolve as we continue the development process, and as we move forward lots of stuff will be uprooted. I don't think about the material as belonging to anyone once it's in the project-- it's just part of the framework. Anaximander's work is still present; half the base class's decisions were his. However, now that we have most of the vestiges together, we can think about the class as a whole. That's the basis for my thoughts on the Unfettered Fate: it feels weird that one of the subclasses is just really good at going ghostly, especially since there are two vestiges who, in theory, should do just that to some extent. The other subclasses have a wider range of capability, so it just feels out of place.


For some reason, the term Cult leaves an odd taste in my mouth. Im not saying it's not a good term for a set of subclasses, but the term "Cult" tends to have a religious connotations or revolve around worship of a god of some sort.

Hm, I understand what you're getting at. On the other hand, an order seems to denote an organized religious group, much more like a respected monestary full of clerics rather than a handful of mostly independent occult-practicing heretics. We could split the difference and go with Sects, but it doesn't have a great ring to it in my opinion.

We could stick with Fates. It has a nice ring to it and feels suitably mysterious. But we need to rename Submortimer's subclasses to fit the naming scheme. However, if we're going to keep Fates, I'm personally in favor of giving subclasses a noun descriptor, rather than an adjective. After all, I've always thought a good subclass defines what someone can do, not what they are.
In other words:
Fate of the Unfettered
Fate of the Sacred Seal
Fate of the Animus
Fate of the Twisted
and Fate of the Occultist/Ritualist/Archbinder.

Submortimer
2015-09-21, 03:35 AM
As requested, re-edited Orders/Fates

Sealed Fate

A binder of the with the Sealed Fate forms a true partnership with a specific Vestige. She becomes that vestige's champion, Taking it's seal as her symbol, and actively advances her patron's desires and goals. In return, her patron grants her powers beyond that of other binders, enhancing her ability to fight on it's behalf.

Patron Vestige
At 3rd level, you may select a vestige which you have bound with a good pact before. That vestige becomes your patron vestige, your sword and your shield against those who might attempt to harm you. This confers on you a number of benefits:
- Should you make a poor pact with your patron, you may choose which influence you take.
- While bound to your patron vestige, you gain a fighting style from the following list: Great Weapon Fighting, Two Weapon Fighting, Dueling, Protection, Mariner.
- While not wearing armor, your AC is equal to 13 + your dexterity modifier.

You may change your patron vestige after you have made this choice; doing so requires a ritual lasting 24 hours. The new patron must be one of your Trusted Vestiges. Following this change, you may bind only your new patron vestige for a period of 7 days, and your previous patron will not answer you call for a period of 30 days.

Proficiencies
At 3rd level, You gain proficiency in Martial weapons and shields.

Patron Boon
At 7th level, while bound to your Patron Vestige, you gain an additional pact augmentation.

Patron Strike
At 13th level, your melee and ranged weapon attacks deal additional psychic damage equal to your charisma modifer.

Patron's Ageis
At 17th level, your patron shields your form from harm, turning lethal blows and denying your death. When you bind to your patron vestige, you gain a pool of temporary HP equal to 5 + your charisma score. Once oer turn, when you strike a creature with a melee weapon attack, you may add a number of temporary HP to this pool equal to half the damage dealt. This pool has a maximum size of twice your charisma score.
These temporary HP are lost upon breaking your bond with your patron vestige, and the pool size resets to 5 + your charisma score following a long rest.



Occult Fate

Vestiges are highly alien, frightening, and volatile beings; binding is, therefore, a rather dangerous business. Binders who follow the Occult Fate seek to stabilize their practice, focusing on the art and skill of binding above all else.

Occult Speciality
At third level select three vestiges you know that you have made a good pact with; these vestiges must be at least 1 level lower than your highest known vestige level. You have advantage when attempting a binding check against those vestiges.
You may select an additional vestige at 7th, 13th, and 17th level.

Occult Phenomenon
At third level, you gain the Prestidigitation, Thaumaturgy, and Druidcraft cantrips.

Empty vessel
At 7th level, you may attempt to bind one of your Occult Speciality vestiges into either another willing host (that is not a binder) or a recently deceased humanoid or animal body, though this process takes much longer than the usual binding ritual. Following a 10 minute ritual, make a binding check with disadvantage against that vestige; success binds the target, failure binds the vestige to yourself with a bad pact. Doing so counts as if you had bound the vestige to yourself, and as such counts against your total levels of bound vestige and number of vestiges bound in a day.
A living target you bind a vestige to gains all the benefits of having bound that vestige himself with a bad pact, but otherwise remains in control of his form. A body you bind a vestige to gains all of the abilities of the vestige in question, and is otherwise a normal creature of it's type, acting on your initiative. The creature is not undoer you direct control: while it generally acts as you direct, it is treated as having both influences of the bound vestige, and will not ignore them under any circumstance, even if that results in personal harm. In either case, if the creature dies or is killed again, the bond breaks immediately; if lost in this fashion, any levels of vestige used are unusable until you take a long rest. You cannot bind the same vestige to multiple creatures (including yourself) at the same time.
You may place a bind on one other creature at 7th level, and 2 at 17th level.

Medium
At 13th level, you learn to channel vestiges with much greater efficiency and fluidity. When renegotiating your pacts following a short rest, you may expel any or all of your current vestiges, and make new pacts as if it was following a long rest; you still may not exceed your maximum number of vestiges bound at one time. As well, you do not have disadvantage when attempting to re-bind an expelled vestige within 24 hours. T

Master Summoner
At 17th level, you learn to expidite the binding process to the point that you can swap vestiges in the blink of an eye. As an action, you may expel a bound vestige and bind a new vestige, following the standard rules for renegotiation. Once you use this ability, you must take a long rest before doing so again.


Eldritch Fate

Though Binding is not spellcasting in the usual sense, it is not altogether different. Binders who follow the Eldritch Fate learn to take that skill and apply it to magic of the proper sort. As well, they learn to exploit their connection to the vestiges they bind, which they refer to as Anima, taking the power they give and channeling it directly into magical might.

Pact magic
At 3rd level, you gain the ability to cast spells.

Cantrips
You learn two cantrips from the sorcerer spell list. You learn an additional cantrip at 8th, 13th, and 19th level.

Spell Slots
You gain two pact magic spells slots, and an additional one at 14th level. Your spell slots are all if the same level, and always of the highest level that you can cast. These slots refresh following a short rest.

Spells Known
You know a number of spells from your chosen spell list as determined by the Awakened Mind spells table. Additionally, you may chose an additional known spell from the warlock, sorcerer, or bard spell list when you bind a vestige; you lose knowledge of that spell when that vestige departs. Spells learned in this way must be lower than or equal to the highest level spell you know. Whenever you gain a level in this class, you can replace one of the sorcerer spells you know with another spell of your choice from the sorcerer spell list. The new spell must be of a level lower than or equal to the highest level spell you can cast.

Eldritch Fate Spells Known



Binder Level
Spell Level
Spells Known


3rd
1
2


4th
1
2


5th
1
3


6th
1
3


7th
2
4


8th
2
5


9th
2
5


10th
2
6


11th
3
6


12th
3
7


13th
3
7


14th
3
8


15th
3
9


16th
4
10


17th
4
11


18th
4
12


19th
4
13


20th
4
13



Spellcasting Ability
Charisma is your spellcasting ability for your sorcerer spells, since the power of your magic relies on your ability to project your will into the world. The Difficulty Class for any of your Eldritch Binder spells is equal to 8 + your Charisma Modifier + your Proficiency Bonus.

Anima casting
At 3rd level, you learn to exploit your bound vestiges for magical power. As a bonus action, you may convert a vestige you currently have bound into a single spell slot or multiple smaller spell slots. The total spell slot level is one lower than the level of the vestige used. Once you have done so, you lose access to that vestige's powers until you take a long rest, and you cannot renegotiate your pact with it.
Using this ability, you may make and use spell slots of a higher level than you normally have available. Doing so is highly dangerous: when attempting to use a slot of a higher level than you normally gain, you must make a concentration check; failure causes the spell slot to be lost, and you trigger an effect from the Wild Magic table.

Anima shield
At 7th level, you force a bound vestige into being your personal watchdog. While you are bound to a vestige with a good pact, you add your proficiency bonus to your initiative modifier, and you cannot be surprised.

Anima Mark
At 13th level, you learn to mix your arcane power with your skills at vestige seal-crafting. During a ritual taking 1 minute, you inscribe a personal mark on a willing creature you can touch. The Mark lasts until dismissed, after which it fades away; it cannot be erased or dispelled by magic short of a Wish. The Mark disappears if you die, or if the creature bearing it dies. Once you mark a creature in this fashion, you must finish a long rest before you can do so again, and you cannot have more than one marked creature at a time.
A marked Creature is bonded to you, much the same way you are bonded to your vestiges. This grants a number of benefits to the bonded creature:

While you are within 1 mile of your bonded creature, you may communicate telepathically with it, even if you do not share a language.
As long as the creature bearing your Mark is on the same plane as you, you know which direction the creature is in. If the creature dies, you are instantly aware of it.
You may cause any any spells you cast that affect only to affect your bonded creature as well, and you may cast spells with a range of Touch on your bonded creature as long as they are within 60 feet.
As a reaction, you may cause your mark to surge with power. Doing so allows your bonded creature to re-roll a failed attack roll, saving throw, or skill check. Once you use this ability, you must take a short or long rest before you can do so again.


Anima mastery
At 17th level, you can use your vestige's bonds as a conduit to the Far Plane, gaining powerful insights at a possibly deadly cost. You may sacrifice vestige you have bound: doing so allows you to cast any warlock or sorcerer spell of the same level as the vestige you sacrificed. Sacrificing a vestige causes you to lose the abilities of that vestige, and you cannot renegotiate that pact until you take a long rest.
You may use this ability to cast spells of a higher level than your pact magic would allow. When using this ability to cast a spell of 5th level or higher, you must make a concentration check with a DC equal to 11 + the spell level: failure causes you to take 1d10 points of unavoidable and irreducible psychic damage + 1d10 per level of the spell cast.
Once you use this ability, you must take a long rest before you can do so again.




Binder's blade (Pre-Req: Sacred Seal or Warped Flesh)
You gain the Extra Attack class feature. This does not stack with any other source of Extra Attack.

Pact Weapon (Pre-req: Sacred Seal or Warped Flesh)
You are able to summon a magic weapon from beyond. This weapon may be any form you choose, and is considered magical. You are proficient with this weapon.

Anima Sight (Pre-req: Awakened Mind)
As an action, you may abandon your senses, allowing you to perceive the world through your bonded creature. This lasts for as long as you maintain concentration on it.

Anima Knowledge (Pre-req: Awakened Mind)
You learn one additional spell from the sorcerer, warlock, or bard spell list.

Poltergeist (pre-req: Adamant Circle or Transcendant Soul)
You learn the Mage hand cantrip, and may cast it, Prestidigitation, Thaumaturgy, or Druidcraft as a bonus action.

Occult Bastion (pre-req: Adamant Circle)
You and any creatures you have bound a vestige to via Empty Vessel gain a +2 bonus to a type of saving throw. Each time you select this augment, you must select a different saving throw.

Hazy Visage (pre-req: Transcendant Soul)
Your connection to the far realm begins distorts your corporeal form, causing creatures to mistake your location. On any turn you do not move, you may, as an action, distort space around you; Attacks against you have disadvantage while you are under this effect. This effect lasts until either you move or you are hit by an attack.



Notes:
- Obviously, Names are up in the air. Those can be changed in all areas as we see fit.
- Most of the suggested changes are in here. Notably, you can still bind a vestige to a dead creature (as I like the imagery that evokes), but it's not quite as controlable or predictable as a summoned creature
- Anima Mage and Awakened Fate Merge

Pact magic, since I feel it fits
Changed anima casting to be simpler
Replaced 7th level ability with Anima Shield, since multiple Vestiges have charm/fear effects already.
Retooled and Renamed Anima Mark: Previous version worked too much like the Empty vessel ability, new one allows the binder to make a bodyguard/mount/familiar.

Prince Zahn
2015-09-21, 04:20 AM
@Submortimer I'll look into these options soon. I just don't want to get in trouble at work.


I fully expect this project to change and evolve as we continue the development process, and as we move forward lots of stuff will be uprooted. I don't think about the material as belonging to anyone once it's in the project-- it's just part of the framework. Anaximander's work is still present; half the base class's decisions were his. However, now that we have most of the vestiges together, we can think about the class as a whole. That's the basis for my thoughts on the Unfettered Fate: it feels weird that one of the subclasses is just really good at going ghostly, especially since there are two vestiges who, in theory, should do just that to some extent. The other subclasses have a wider range of capability, so it just feels out of place. I understand and respect these points. I think it the subclass could be modified to be more flexible. It'll just require a little creativity, and we're good at that.



Hm, I understand what you're getting at. On the other hand, an order seems to denote an organized religious group, much more like a respected monestary full of clerics rather than a handful of mostly independent occult-practicing heretics. We could split the difference and go with Sects, but it doesn't have a great ring to it in my opinion.The way Scarce put it is better than I ever could. The Binder traditionally belongs in settings where what he's doing is considered heresy. A Binder joining a cult, selling his soul, embracing eldritch side effects, et cetera feels more taboo and mysterious than joining an order. If brevity wasn't important, I would have liked the term "secret society".


We could stick with Fates. It has a nice ring to it and feels suitably mysterious. But we need to rename Submortimer's subclasses to fit the naming scheme. However, if we're going to keep Fates, I'm personally in favor of giving subclasses a noun descriptor, rather than an adjective. After all, I've always thought a good subclass defines what someone can do, not what they are.
In other words:
Fate of the Unfettered
Fate of the Sacred Seal
Fate of the Animus
Fate of the Twisted
and Fate of the Occultist/Ritualist/Archbinder.
I could live with this. Refluffing might be required to get a more inclusive feel of a Binder choosing a fate.

The_Doctor
2015-09-21, 09:00 AM
Setting aside the wonderful debate about naming conventions, I'm going to be going through and taking some of my vestiges, putting them into the correct format, adding an influence (as many need), and generally wrapping it up, and then you guys can comment on abilities to change/add/remove.

Starting with my very very VERY first vestige ever: the mighty Halphax.


Halphax
The Angel in the Angle
9th Level vestige
Special Requirement: Halphax's seal must be drawn in the corner of a building or other structure.
DC: 25
Sign: Your body takes on the appearance of cracked stone.
Manifestation: When Halphax manifests, the corner in which he was summoned appears to warp, growing deeper and extending to what appears to be an infinite distance beyond the limits of the structure. In that distance, a figure appears, and suddenly the distance closes, bringing Halphax into his seal. Halphax always takes the form of a gnome wearing leather breeches and a vest, both of which are covered in pockets and loops for holding tools and items. The tools of an engineer hang from his belt, and he usually appears in a posture of boredom, hands in his pockets. Halphaxís most striking feature is that he seems to have no flesh and bone beneath his clothesóonly broken bits of stone and masonry. The shattered features of bas-reliefs and gargoyles make up his face.

PROFICIENCIES
You gain no proficiencies from binding to Halphax.

Stone Skin
While bound to Halphax you have resistance to piercing, bludgeoning, and slashing damage.

Halphax's Knowledge
While bound to Halphax, add your Charisma modifier to checks relating to architecture, stonework, and so on.

Imprison
You can imprison a foe deep underground with but a touch. This acts as the imprisonment spell (PHB page 252). You can only choose the burial or hedge prison options. You can use this ability once per long rest.

Iron Wall
As an action on your turn, you can summon a wall of gleaming iron. This acts as the wall of force spell. You can have a maximum of 5 walls active at any one time.

Secure Shelter
You can cast Leomund's Tiny Hut once per short rest.
PACT INFORMATION:
This is not the legend you're looking for. Move along.

If you make a poor pact with Halphax, he influences your personality in one of the following ways:


Influence
Description


Flaw
I have no sense of shame or embarrassment.


Bond
If someone I care for is taken hostage, I will accede to the hostage taker's demands.

Submortimer
2015-09-21, 01:03 PM
The way Scarce put it is better than I ever could. The Binder traditionally belongs in settings where what he's doing is considered heresy. A Binder joining a cult, selling his soul, embracing eldritch side effects, et cetera feels more taboo and mysterious than joining an order. If brevity wasn't important, I would have liked the term "secret society".


I think we have the same idea. Secret Society is pretty much what I was going for, but it's certainly too wordy.

I'm down with Fates as a name. Here's another set of options, with an obvious naming convention:

Fate of the Warped Body
Fate of the Awakened Mind
Fate of the Sealed Heart
Fate of the Unfettered Soul
Fate of the Mastered Hands



I could live with this. Refluffing might be required to get a more inclusive feel of a Binder choosing a fate.

Certainly for my subclasess. I'd say the Fates are what happens to a binder as they perform their particular style of binding

Seal = gain power by binding the same vestige over and over, and championing it's cause.
Warped = gain power by allowing a vestige's signs to become a part of the body
Awakened = gain power by enforcing your will over your vestiges, treating them like tools rather than entities.
Unfettered = gain power by emulating the vestiges, and by connecting to the far realm.
Master = gain power through rigid practice and ceremony.

Twelvetrees
2015-09-21, 07:58 PM
All right, let's see what critiques I can give. It's obvious that all of you have spent quite a bit of time on this, so most of my questions are likely to be very specific. My posts will be a little more broken up than they would otherwise be due to the volume of the material you have, but I'll eventually cover everything.



EVERLASTING PACT
When you reach 20th Level, You can form a pact with a vestige without the confines of a limited window of time. You can form a pact with any vestige of 2nd level or lower, or with a Trusted Vestige, as an Everlasting Pact. when you form a everlasting pact with a vestige, it's connection with you does not end after 24 hours have passed, though you can still renegotiate your pact with the vestige normally if you wish to end your pact with it. Renegotiating an Everlasting Pact does not impose disadvantage on further ability checks to Bind vestiges.

When does this actually take place? Is the Everlasting Pact a separate pact entirely from the normal process, not requiring a roll, or does it take place immediately after a pact is made? If it takes place after, does this mean that it is possible to have a poorly made Everlasting Pact?



Critique for Unfettered Fate


INTANGIBLE PRESENCE
At 3rd level, you learn to manipulate the fabric of the planes so that your presence makes less of a mark in the physical world. Once per short rest, you can make yourself indistinct and harder to detect. For one minute, or as long as you maintain concentration (whichever is shortest), you appear as a blurred and partly transparent shape. While this effect lasts, you gain a +10 bonus to Dexterity (Stealth) checks, and you can't be tracked by non-magical means. In addition, when standing on a surface, hanging, or being lifted, you appear to weigh half your normal weight, and you are not affected by non-magical wind and air currents. Once you use this ability, you can't use it again until you complete a short or long rest.

Does this stack with Pass Without Trace? If it does, that gives the Binder a +20 to their Dexterity (Stealth) check, which might be a little much.



WARP THE MIND
At 13th level, you gain a vestige's ability to alter the personality of a mortal mind. Once per short rest, you may choose any creature that you can see within 120 feet that is not a celestial, fiend, or fey. This creature must make a Wisdom save against your Binder spell DC. On a failed save, you may choose one effect from the following list:

Amnesia: the creature cannot learn new information. It will continue to act and react as they would normally, but at the start of each turn they choose their actions as they would have when the spell effect began. For example, if a creature that it previously considered friendly attacks, they will instinctively defend themselves, but on their next turn they will still consider the creature to be friendly. similarly, if an item is moved, they will still look for it in its old location first, and begin searching from there.
Recklessness: the creature acts without thought for its own safety. The creature takes a -2 penalty to AC and has disadvantage on all saving throws. The creature will not act counter to its interests or take actions that are purely self-harming, but it will not attempt to avoid taking damage from environmental effects, traps, etc. while carrying out its actions.
Meakness: the creature acts without assertiveness or belief. The creature has disadvantage on all skill checks and Charisma saves. In addition, if the creature has any ability or spellcasting that can be resisted with a Charisma save, the DC for that save is reduced by 2.
Fury: the creature cannot control its temper, becoming aggressive and volatile. The creature is quick to anger, even towards friends. In combat, the creature will attack whichever creature last dealt it damage. It cannot maintain concentration for more than one round.

The effect lasts for 1d6 rounds, or until you lose concentration, whichever is sooner.

I think this is reasonably balanced, but I'm unsure about one thing. When the effect wears off, is the creature aware that the binder was influencing it/is it aware that something affected it adversely?



Critique for Warped Fate


OTHERWORLDLY
When you reach 17th Level, you can manifest the eldritch beast within you and can fill take it's image. For 1 minute, your type changes to Aberration, you become Large sized, and select one of the following benefits:

Siphoning. A target you hit with the attack you gain from your unnatural attack feature must succeed on a constitution saving throw or take 1 level of exhaustion. In addition, Whenever one or more creatures fails the saving throw against a feature you gained from binding a vestige, you regain hit points equal to your level.
Impervious.When you select this feature, Choose 3 types of damage. once you have selected them, they cannot be changed. You have immunity against damage from the types you selected.
???. (Feature Pending)(open to suggestions)

Once you have chosen the benefit for this feature, you can not change it. You can end the effects of Otherworldly before the duration has expired. Once you have used this feature, you can not use it again until you complete a short rest.

What action does it take to become Otherworldly?

Can Impervious be Piercing, Slashing, and Bludgeoning? If so, that might be just a little strong. I'd say to limit it to everything but those three.

Also, a rough suggestion for a third option: Call Minions. When you select this feature, choose a creature of Challenge 1/2 or lower that would be an appropriate follower of one of your vestiges. At the start of each of your turns while the effect lasts, you can summon up to two of these creatures in an unoccupied space that you can see within 90 feet. The creatures disappear when they drop to 0 hit points or when Otherworldly ends. You may only have two such creatures summoned at a time. They are friendly to you and your companions for the duration. They act immediately after you in the initiative order, obeying any verbal commands that you issue to them (no action required by you). If you don't issue any commands to the creatures, they defend themselves from hostile creatures but otherwise take no actions.



Critique for Awakened Fate


OCCULT MARK

I'll get back to this. I've got a nagging feeling that there's something I'm missing here with potential abuses.



Well, I've gone through everything but the vestiges. There's very little that I've actually noticed could be changed, so well done there. Hope this helps.

Edit: And now I notice that the subclasses are being restructured. Would you like me to go through those before I move on to critiquing the vestiges?

Scarce
2015-09-21, 09:18 PM
Edit: And now I notice that the subclasses are being restructured. Would you like me to go through those before I move on to critiquing the vestiges?
Hey, welcome Twelvetrees! We could use critique all around, but, since I'm interested in how the subclasses interact with the vestige system, I think we could use a look at the vestiges level-by-level (beginning with level 1). I'm interested in a few things:


How each vestige compares in power individually to vestiges of the same level
How easy the vestige is to understand
How (at lower levels) a vestige holds up as the only one bound
How (at higher levels) vestiges synergize with each other and with feats

I believe this is by far the greatest need at this moment.

Scarce
2015-09-21, 09:45 PM
Double post:
I've been building test binders. One I have right now is a 3rd level Warped Fate binder with Ipos.

I've noticed something with the shape of things: Warped Fate Unnatural Weapons really steal the thunder from multiple vestiges. I was already not cheerful about the feature being longer than some vestiges, but actually making a Warped Fate binder has been more than a little disenchanting. Like, what's the point of binding Ipos for his claws if you already get that exact feature from your subclass? Same with Amon, I'm afraid. Warped Fate actually gives better weapons than Ronove until level 5 and the vestige only surpasses it at 11th level! It seems that Warped Fate binders are most advantaged by not binding vestiges which physically warp them, since the weapons they would get are redundant.

That being said, I really don't know what to do with that first feature otherwise. At the moment, it literally offers nothing else.

@Ipos: At 3rd level, you can do two attacks with the Cold Iron Claws, for 1d6+Strength each, Rending an enemy for 2d8 once per short rest on a pair of hits. I think Rend damage is about right, but the 1d6 damage on each hit outpaces monks by two levels. I'm tempted to reduce the damage die to be the same as a monk's, but this would step right on top of Ronove's thing. Thoughts?

Scarce
2015-09-22, 12:48 PM
Tons of stuff have come to light as I construct low level Binders. Firstly, binders are really easy to hit at lower levels, basically like a rogue or a wizard, but because they can only bind 1 vestige at a time, they have significantly fewer options than either of those classes. As such, I'm thinking that every 1st level vestige needs some ranged attack option that scales with level. Cantrips are the obvious choice for this, but Amon's fire breath is another good example.

Additionally, it's important that there are some passive defensive options available to the binder, but that these options are not too powerful. If something amounts to resistance to all damage, it's too much (obviously), but increased AC or mobility options seem about right.

Finally, I notice that (at least at levels 1 and 2, which I've been focusing on), there is a huge power gap between some of the vestiges. Dahlver-Nar and Amon, for example, seem far more powerful than Aoskar, Ronove, and Naberius.

Having said all that, I'm going to do another take of Dahlver-Nar, focusing on a new paradigm of 1st level vestiges, as follows:

Dahlver-Nar
The Tortured One
1st Level Vestige

Poison Breath
You can exhale toxic fumes from your mouth to cast the cantrip poison spray.

Natural Armor
While unarmored, your Armor Class is equal to 12 + your Dexterity Modifier.

Share Harm
As a reaction when you are targeted by an attack or spell attack, you can grant the attacker advantage on the roll to select 1 creature within 30 feet to make a Charisma saving throw. On a failed save, the creature takes damage equal to half the amount dealt, to a maximum of 10. At 10th level, this maximum increases to 20.

Maddening Moan
You can let out a moan that brings a creature to the brink of insanity. You can cast dissonant whispers without expending a spell slot. After casting this spell, you must complete a short or long rest before using it again.

Submortimer
2015-09-22, 01:16 PM
You know, is the a reason we couldn't include a couple of cantrips learned at 1st level? I'm sure we could find a way to make it fit thematically, and it wouldn't restrict our vestiges to NEEDING a combat option (like Naberious: nothing about the Dog suggests that he should grant combat skills).

The_Doctor
2015-09-22, 01:19 PM
As a note, I was going to get to Dahlver-Nar eventually. :P Plus we could just buff the other vestige's power a bit.

Firstly, where is the flavor of poison spray?

Also, I believe Poison Spray has a grammar error. Read it over and you'll find it.

I think Share Harm should include a clause that if the target is willing, they can voluntarily fail the save.

Scarce
2015-09-22, 01:20 PM
You know, is the a reason we couldn't include a couple of cantrips learned at 1st level? I'm sure we could find a way to make it fit thematically, and it wouldn't restrict our vestiges to NEEDING a combat option (like Naberious: nothing about the Dog suggests that he should grant combat skills).

Naberious is fine; he has vicious mockery. Besides, I think it's nice for binders to be able to swap out their cantrips with their vestiges.

Scarce
2015-09-22, 01:35 PM
I think Share Harm should include a clause that if the target is willing, they can voluntarily fail the save.
Why? Share Harm doesn't protect you in any way.