D&D 5e/Next 5e Duskblade PEACH [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Silvercrys

2015-08-02, 06:46 PM

I may have time later to dissect this more thoroughly, but these are what pop out to me at a glance.

I would prefer a more generic name than Duskblade for the base class, Spellsword or Swordmage maybe. Then rename the Magus to Duskblade. But that's just me.

Very very strong. Breaks Bounded Accuracy and is less resource intensive than Paladin's Smite. It might be enough to reduce it to +3/3d6 max and require a bonus action, but it will still be very strong. Imagine, if you will, a Fighter (Eldritch Knight) 11/Duskblade 9.

It's worth noting that 5e's basic combat math does not take magic items (such as +3 weapons) into account. So you're actually giving out a much bigger bonus than +2 over twenty levels.

I also think you can remove the Smite restriction in any case - there's no precedent for multiclass specific restrictions in base class abilities (most likely because multiclassing is optional now) and if they want to dip Paladin 2 to burn their resources faster that's on them. Most spell slots are (probably) worth more than xd8 damage once.

You could also just give them the Paladin's Smite ability - this prevents multiclass double slot spending like your restriction and all those other shenanigans.

This ability is extremely weird to me. The range is massive (a square 125 feet on a side) and it says "all creatures within 60 feet of the target", so including the Hexblade himself and his allies.

I would change targets to enemies only and reduce the area to 10 feet. That gives you a square 25 feet on a side and still allows the Hexblade to clear minions like no other while no longer being a jerk face to his allies.

This one is a lot stronger than other available options. I thought it was broken, especially combined with the current Arcane Strikes, until I saw the proficiency bonus cap on points per round.

Even with that, however, it's much stronger than other options. Not so much at low levels, but once their proficiency bonus starts climbing they can get more attacks than any one else in a single turn. At 9th level with Crossbow Mastery they can go:Haste, Haste attack (x2), Bonus action attack (x2). Then next turn, Attack (x2), Extra Attack (x2), Haste attack, Bonus action attack.

Granted, they have only 1 point left and burned one of their 2 3rd level slots on that nova, but it's very strong out of the box. All of those attacks can also have a +2/+2d6 bonus from Arcane Strikes as well.

Then their capstone lets them use it for free. Granted, it is a capstone, but doubling all attacks is really really strong even for 20th level. It's only because of this one augment.

I would either limit this augment to once per round, or increase the cost to 3 and bump it up to 11th level, or increase the cost to 4. If you bump it up to 4 it can't even be used until 9th level, of course.

You could also simply use a blanket statement at the beginning, something like "You may only spend Arcane Points to activate an augment once per round" and drop the proficiency bonus restriction. Could even leave this one at 2 points then probably.

Also just noticed your Archetype section is headed with "Spellsword Archetypes" instead of "Duskblade".

If the name change was to differentiate it from the other one you talked about in your OP, there's already at least one Swordmage, Spellsword, and Duskblade class here, so I don't think it matters. Most of us will probably say "so-and-so's class name" anyway, so call it what you want.

ZenBear

2015-08-02, 09:02 PM

I agree that this needs a more generic name. Duskblade should be an archetype of the Swordmage/Spellsword/Warmage class. What does Duskblade even mean and where does it come from?

I really don't like it when armor proficiencies come at a later level than 1. 7 is way too late. Give the class heavy armor prof or allow the archetype choice at level 1.

Silvercrys

2015-08-03, 12:41 AM

The Duskblade name originates from the 3.5 PHB II, I believe. It was a full base attack bonus 20 level base class with spell casting up to 5th level spells and some class features for casting and fighting at the same time as well as casting in armor.

The original fluff was about elven warriors who learned to blend magic and steel, then they taught some humans and now anyone can learn to be one. Or something.

I'm going from memory here, so I might be mistaken.

I don't have anything against the name specifically, I just feel like it belongs at the same level of class-ness as the Hexblade and the Arcane Archer. It feels weird to me that those two are subclasses of Duskblade when the original Duskblade concept (Channeling magic through your blade) is as narrow as they are (edgy Arcane Paladin with Hex instead of Smite Evil, and channeling magic through a bow+arrow, respectively).

Ninja_Prawn

2015-08-03, 01:21 AM

there's already at least one Swordmage, Spellsword, and Duskblade class here, so I don't think it matters. Most of us will probably say "so-and-so's class name" anyway, so call it what you want.

Aye, and I recalling PEACHing an arcane archer class a few weeks ago.

I share Silvercrys' reserves about Arcane Strike. The attack bonus in particular is too much. And the fact that it lasts a whole turn.

Quibble: "expend a spell slot to add gain bonus" Addgain sounds like something out of 1984... There are a few other grammatical mishaps, but I won't point them out here.

Two more small complaints: one, none of the other half-casters get cantrips. Two, you describe their casting as "much as a wizard", but they don't have to prepare spells, so to me it looks more like a bard.

And like the bard, it might be good to specify that your weapon can be your arcane focus.

Oh, and what happens if you Arcane Channel a Fireball? Do you get burned?

Gr7mm Bobb

2015-08-03, 06:37 AM

I may have time later to dissect this more thoroughly, but these are what pop out to me at a glance.
Very very strong. Breaks Bounded Accuracy and is less resource intensive than Paladin's Smite. It might be enough to reduce it to +3/3d6 max and require a bonus action, but it will still be very strong. Imagine, if you will, a Fighter (Eldritch Knight) 11/Duskblade 9.

It's worth noting that 5e's basic combat math does not take magic items (such as +3 weapons) into account. So you're actually giving out a much bigger bonus than +2 over twenty levels.

One of my other ideas was to have it give advantage and keep the bonus damage as is. (maybe only adv on the first swing?)
My goal is to not break the bounded accuracy model. I might temporarily change it to limit the +5 to a +3 and keep the bonus damage the same.

I also think you can remove the Smite restriction in any case - there's no precedent for multiclass specific restrictions in base class abilities (most likely because multiclassing is optional now) and if they want to dip Paladin 2 to burn their resources faster that's on them. Most spell slots are (probably) worth more than xd8 damage once.

You could also just give them the Paladin's Smite ability - this prevents multiclass double slot spending like your restriction and all those other shenanigans.

Maybe from a need to be different, but I wanted the risk/reward of a bonus spent for the round that has the opportunity for failure. The ability was named and partially modeled after a suboptimal feat from 3.5 that I liked the flavor of.
As for the smite limitation, that was for the more 'read as written' people in our group who would use the clause not existing to create a character using the Duskblade, the assassin archetype, and the paladin to one round nova just about anything of their CR.
I would like to retain the bonus damage for the round with a minor accuracy bump, but clearly it needs tweaking.

This ability is extremely weird to me. The range is massive (a square 125 feet on a side) and it says "all creatures within 60 feet of the target", so including the Hexblade himself and his allies.

I would change targets to enemies only and reduce the area to 10 feet. That gives you a square 25 feet on a side and still allows the Hexblade to clear minions like no other while no longer being a jerk face to his allies.

Oops. . . Yep, not the intent, it was supposed to be a jerk face to creatures within range who are also cursed. The funny once per round blurb was to make it apparent that the damage does not reverb from itself. But there is definitely a better way I could have stated that.

This one is a lot stronger than other available options. I thought it was broken, especially combined with the current Arcane Strikes, until I saw the proficiency bonus cap on points per round.

Even with that, however, it's much stronger than other options. Not so much at low levels, but once their proficiency bonus starts climbing they can get more attacks than any one else in a single turn. At 9th level with Crossbow Mastery they can go:Haste, Haste attack (x2), Bonus action attack (x2). Then next turn, Attack (x2), Extra Attack (x2), Haste attack, Bonus action attack.

Granted, they have only 1 point left and burned one of their 2 3rd level slots on that nova, but it's very strong out of the box. All of those attacks can also have a +2/+2d6 bonus from Arcane Strikes as well.

Then their capstone lets them use it for free. Granted, it is a capstone, but doubling all attacks is really really strong even for 20th level. It's only because of this one augment.

I would either limit this augment to once per round, or increase the cost to 3 and bump it up to 11th level, or increase the cost to 4. If you bump it up to 4 it can't even be used until 9th level, of course.

You could also simply use a blanket statement at the beginning, something like "You may only spend Arcane Points to activate an augment once per round" and drop the proficiency bonus restriction. Could even leave this one at 2 points then probably.

Point made, going to make that a 1/round ability. Its intent was to potentially split other trick shots, like maybe shooting around 2 corners.

EDIT: The intent of split shot was to increase the number of targets you can fire at without increasing your overall DPR. in other words its your kobold cleaner. I've since changed the wording a tad to try and get closer towards the intent. If you are willing to help with wording, just leave it as a comment in the doc.

The Duskblade name originates from the 3.5 PHB II, I believe. It was a full base attack bonus 20 level base class with spell casting up to 5th level spells and some class features for casting and fighting at the same time as well as casting in armor.

The original fluff was about elven warriors who learned to blend magic and steel, then they taught some humans and now anyone can learn to be one. Or something.

Correct! :smallbiggrin:

I don't have anything against the name specifically, I just feel like it belongs at the same level of class-ness as the Hexblade and the Arcane Archer. It feels weird to me that those two are subclasses of Duskblade when the original Duskblade concept (Channeling magic through your blade) is as narrow as they are (edgy Arcane Paladin with Hex instead of Smite Evil, and channeling magic through a bow+arrow, respectively).

I started the project by trying to recreate the Duskblade, so it felt only fitting that the name was used in my chassis. I went and looked at a couple of other different things from 3.x, Pathfinder, and the internet to see what else had already been done for the arcane gish and expanded on it from there.

What does Duskblade even mean and where does it come from?

Silvercrys is correct, it's out of the PHBII from 3.5. It was the gish that WotC dropped after they released the Hexblade in the Complete Warrior. After realizing that allowing an arcane caster to wear armor wasn't what was upsetting the balance of the game, they released the Duskblade as the Hexblades much more mature brother.

I really don't like it when armor proficiencies come at a later level than 1. 7 is way too late. Give the class heavy armor prof or allow the archetype choice at level 1.

I've considered having it show up when they get the archetype at level 3, but that was the earliest I was ok with. At the sacrifice of a lower HD and not having all armor without focusing the Duskblade has versatility that exceeds the paladin and the ranger.

Quibble: "expend a spell slot to add gain bonus" Addgain sounds like something out of 1984... There are a few other grammatical mishaps, but I won't point them out here.

Fixed in my version, the OP should update at some point today. As far as those are concerned, the level of literacy that you have read in this or my other works is what I've got. . . So if you are willing to post suggestions or comments in the document to aid with my terrible command of the English language, that would be appreciated. (Really hoping that that did not sound lazy. . .)

Two more small complaints: one, none of the other half-caster get cantrips. Two, you describe their casting as "much as a wizard", but they don't have to prepare spells, so to me it looks more like a bard.

I agree that no other 1/2 caster gets cantrips, but this was me trying to get it to feel more like a someone who can weave spell and sword in a nice blended mix. I was less concerned with it because both of the 1/3 casters have cantrips. However, the "like a wizard" blurb was to explain how he approaches magic through understanding vice willpower or divine inspiration. Will try to work out a more flowing explanation, but I might be a little slow on that.

And like the bard, it might be good to specify that your weapon can be your arcane focus.

I like it, definitely plan on adding it.

Oh, and what happens if you Arcane Channel a Fireball? Do you get burned?
[/quote]
You can't channel a Fireball, it does not have an attack roll. Only the arcane archer has the ability to imbue just about any spell into their attacks. If they could, I would say yes, you just point blanked yourself with a fireball. The original 3.5 version just crammed it and the weapon damage down you throat and walked away. Cool imagery, game breaking in this edition.

I think I just about covered the current criticism, changes cannot be implemented immediately, but they will happen. I appreciate all the help and am looking forward to what else you have to say.

I would like to ask about the Bloodrush trick and fear of breaking the 'bounded accuracy' model (again). Should I have it set up that the first bit of damage you deal after using it adds your DB level as bonus damage of the same type instead?

Silvercrys

2015-08-03, 01:15 PM

Still digesting, have some other stuff going on at the moment. I might have some time later to go through the class line by line but wanted to respond to your comments.

One of my other ideas was to have it give advantage and keep the bonus damage as is. (maybe only adv on the first swing?)
My goal is to not break the bounded accuracy model. I might temporarily change it to limit the +5 to a +3 and keep the bonus damage the same.
Advantage would be much better, as it wouldn't stack with Advantage from other sources. I took a look at the math and posted it below. (Damage notation is Average : Maximum without crits : Maximum with crits, and takes misses into account so minimum is always 0.)

Assuming you hit on an 11 or higher:
Paladin 5
2 attacks with Smite 3d8
Total bonus damage = (14.84 : 48 : 96)
Uses as many 2nd level slots as attacks that hit (one on average)

Duskblade 5
2 Attacks with Arcane Strike 2d6
Total bonus damage = (9.78 : 24 : 48)
Uses a single 2nd level slots no matter what.

Your proposed change (Advantage on first attack) is probably fine. It will be much better on Monk and Fighter (11) multiclass than Paladin currently is, though. Advantage on all attacks will bump the damage to:

Duskblade 5
Total bonus damage = (11.86 : 24 : 48)

Of course, as slot level increases so does the efficiency of Arcane Strike compared to Smite:

Assuming you hit on an 11 or higher:
Paladin 20
2 attacks with Smite 5d8
Total bonus damage = (22.5 : 80)
Uses as many 4th level slots as attacks that hit (one on average)

Duskblade 20
2 Attacks with Arcane Strike 4d6
Total bonus damage = (17.5 : 48)
Uses a single 4th level slot no matter what.

Duskblade 20 (advantage on all attacks)
2 Attacks with Arcane Strike 4d6
Total bonus damage = (21 : 48)
Uses a single 4th level slot no matter what.

Paladin has much higher maximum damage but because they are also rolling more dice, they are more likely to reach the average than they are the maximum.

I also used best case scenario for Advantage (hit on 11 makes it worth +5 to hit). If you hit on a lower or higher number than 11 it is worth less to hit and therefore expected damage.

Also remember that the Great Weapon Fighting style will allow you to reroll the d6's from Arcane Strike more often than the d8's from Smite, since they roll 1's and 2's more often. This means it is worth more to the Duskblade than the Paladin (only available as Magus subclass or multiclass).

Maybe from a need to be different, but I wanted the risk/reward of a bonus spent for the round that has the opportunity for failure. The ability was named and partially modeled after a suboptimal feat from 3.5 that I liked the flavor of.
As for the smite limitation, that was for the more 'read as written' people in our group who would use the clause not existing to create a character using the Duskblade, the assassin archetype, and the paladin to one round nova just about anything of their CR.
I would like to retain the bonus damage for the round with a minor accuracy bump, but clearly it needs tweaking.

Best Nova damage to my knowledge is Half-Orc Paladin 15 / Rogue 3 / Fighter 2. Suppose you could dip Duskblade in that build on top of those and go Half-Orc Paladin 13 / Duskblade 2 / Rogue 3 / Fighter 2.

Assuming you hit on a 14 (11 with a +3 weapon) (AC 23)
Both builds have Strength 20, Great Weapon Fighting Style, Great Weapon Mastery, and a +3 Greataxe.

Half-Orc Paladin 15 / Rogue 3 / Fighter 2
Gets 5 attacks (Action Surge, Crit Bonus Attack)
Attack 1 = 3d12 + 10d8 + 18 = (61.02 : 134)
Attack 2 = 3d12 + 10d8 + 18 = (61.02 : 134)
Attack 3 = 3d12 + 10d8 + 18 = (61.02 : 134)
Attack 4 = 3d12 + 10d8 + 18 = (61.02 : 134)
Attack 5 = 3d12 + 10d8 + 18 = (61.02 : 134)
Total = (305.12 : 670)

Hald-Orc Paladin 15 / Duskblade 2 / Rogue 3 / Fighter 2
Gets 5 attacks (Action Surge, Crit Bonus Attack)
Attack 1 = 3d12 + 10d8 + 10d6 + 18 = (85.09 : 194)
Attack 2 = 3d12 + 10d8 + 10d6 + 18 = (85.09 : 194)
Attack 3 = 3d12 + 10d8 + 10d6 + 18 = (85.09 : 194)
Attack 4 = 3d12 + 10d8 + 10d6 + 18 = (85.09 : 194)
Attack 5 = 3d12 + 8d8 + 10d6 + 18 = (79.02 : 178)
Total = (419.37 : 954)

On average you get ~115 extra damage out of the nova.... and spend an extra 3rd level spell slot.

Also, if you require 13 Strength and 13 Intelligence to multiclass into Duskblade, you have to have a 13+ in every stat except Wisdom to pull this off.

Also, for funsies here are some monster HPs and ACs from the MM, with both build's expected damage adjusted for AC.

Ancient Black Dragon - 367 HP, 22 AC - ~320 - ~440
Ancient Blue Dragon - 481 HP, 22 AC - ~320 - ~440
Ancient Green Dragon - 385 HP, 21 AC - ~336 - ~462
Ancient Red Dragon - 546 HP, 22 AC - ~320 - ~440
Ancient White Dragon - 333 HP, 20 AC - ~353 - ~485
The Kraken - - - - - - 472 HP, 18 AC - ~389 - ~535
Some Random Lich - - - 135 HP, 17 AC - ~MurderDead
The Tarrasque - - - - 676 HP, AC 25 - ~275 - ~378

So the Duskblade multiclass version is expected to one shot the Kraken, the Ancient Black Dragon, and the Ancient Green Dragon and the other one isn't.

Oops. . . Yep, not the intent, it was supposed to be a jerk face to creatures within range who are also cursed. The funny once per round blurb was to make it apparent that the damage does not reverb from itself. But there is definitely a better way I could have stated that.
Oh. Well, if it only affects all cursed enemies and does nothing to other ones it's probably fine as is. Probably does need rewording, I'll think about it some and get back to you.

Point made, going to make that a 1/round ability. Its intent was to potentially split other trick shots, like maybe shooting around 2 corners.

EDIT: The intent of split shot was to increase the number of targets you can fire at without increasing your overall DPR. in other words its your kobold cleaner. I've since changed the wording a tad to try and get closer towards the intent. If you are willing to help with wording, just leave it as a comment in the doc.
I'll leave that and maybe a reword on the Hexblade capstone on there at some point.

I would like to ask about the Bloodrush trick and fear of breaking the 'bounded accuracy' model (again). Should I have it set up that the first bit of damage you deal after using it adds your DB level as bonus damage of the same type instead?
It does break bounded accuracy. I would possibly change it to "A bonus equal to your ability modifer on that Initiative Check and advantage on attack rolls during the first round" or convert the bonus from an attack bonus to a damage one.

Or just drop the attack bonus. There aren't too many ways to increase your Initiative in this edition yet.

For the most part, all flat bonuses to attack rolls are gone from this edition. They have mostly been replaced with granting advantage - this has the benefit of not stacking with other things so it's super easy to hit and also grants a bigger bonus to people who try to stay near the bounded accuracy goal (10 or 11 on the die).

I would think very, very carefully before granting a flat bonus to attack rolls of any kind in this edition.

[Whew, that took a lot longer than I meant to. Had some interruptions. I used AnyDice functions to find the damage probabilities]

AuraTwilight

2015-08-03, 02:03 PM

We can't exactly judge the spell list without the write-ups of your homebrew spells. Coming soon?

ZenBear

2015-08-03, 03:58 PM

On the issue of channeling a fireball: 4E Swordmage had a power, I forget the name, that was described as slashing your foe and planting a seed of fire in the wound, then kicking them away to explode in a fireball amongst its allies. Protecting Aegis feature allowed the secondary blast to only affect enemies. I'm not saying this is reason to allow it, just mentioning something cool. 😊

Gr7mm Bobb

2015-08-03, 05:14 PM

We can't exactly judge the spell list without the write-ups of your homebrew spells. Coming soon?

and done, added to the OP.

To do list:

Add multiclass specs (requirements, proficiencies gained, etc)
Word clean-up and clarity edits.
. . . ask viewers for requests, critques, and edits.

Gr7mm Bobb

2015-08-10, 07:17 AM

Ok the campaign that this is going to be used in is coming up shortly, just checking to see what all is needed to fix still. More incoming and edits to OP.

Split shot edited, still needs clarification to avoid broken.
Bloodrush changed to give initiative and damage, no bonus to hit.

@ Silvercrys and your numbers, a multiclassed DB pally has to choose between arcane strike or smite, he cannot mix the 2. I'm hoping that that helps reign in some of the power involved in the math.

Silvercrys

2015-08-11, 11:59 AM

@ Silvercrys and your numbers, a multiclassed DB pally has to choose between arcane strike or smite, he cannot mix the 2. I'm hoping that that helps reign in some of the power involved in the math.

Oh, I know. I wanted to show what the numbers would be if you could use both together and compare it to the already strongest nova build to see if the restriction was actually warranted.

I suppose I should actually check them against each other at various levels to find out if it's a lot more over the course of gameplay. Maybe assume both have the same first 7 levels (Fighter 2/Paladin 2/Rogue 3) then compare at level 9 (Base + Duskblade 2 vs Base + Paladin 2)

Then each level they gain a new spell level after that to see how fast the Duskblade multiclass ramps up the extra damage. I suspect the Duskblade will be better (but not by tons) all the way up, with the non-Duskblade catching up some at level 16 when they get Improved Divine Smite (Duskblade multiclass doesn't get it until 18).

Gr7mm Bobb

2015-08-12, 06:03 AM

Oh, I know. I wanted to show what the numbers would be if you could use both together and compare it to the already strongest nova build to see if the restriction was actually warranted.

That is very useful then, ty.

I suppose I should actually check them against each other at various levels to find out if it's a lot more over the course of gameplay. Maybe assume both have the same first 7 levels (Fighter 2/Paladin 2/Rogue 3) then compare at level 9 (Base + Duskblade 2 vs Base + Paladin 2)

Then each level they gain a new spell level after that to see how fast the Duskblade multiclass ramps up the extra damage. I suspect the Duskblade will be better (but not by tons) all the way up, with the non-Duskblade catching up some at level 16 when they get Improved Divine Smite (Duskblade multiclass doesn't get it until 18).

I'm Ok with the DB having better output though seeing as how it is more fragile than the 2 other 1/2 casters.

As for split shot what I think I will do is just put a clause in it saying that it cannot be used in concert with Arcane Channeling feature and the Imbue Ammunition trick as those were my primary concerns. I do not want the DB having a better Twin Spell than the sorcerer. Also might have the limitation that any additional targets must be within 30ft of one other, but that migt be me tweaking the wrong angle on it.

Bharaeth

2015-08-12, 07:05 AM

Hey - I'm liking this class a lot! I can think of a couple characters in our campaign who could have done with something very similar to this to convert over properly from 4e.

So, not too insightful, but the only help I have for you at the moment is just pointing out a typo in the linked document: for Bloodrush, it says 'the first time you deal deal damage', so just need to remove an instance of 'deal' here

darkscizor

2015-08-12, 08:26 AM

The final ability of a Magus, a +5level slot on a critical? Nonono. I'd suggest 5 levels' worth of spell slots distributed as you wish, and to a maximum of once or twice per short/long rest.

Gr7mm Bobb

2015-08-12, 09:12 AM

The final ability of a Magus, a +5level slot on a critical? Nonono. I'd suggest 5 levels' worth of spell slots distributed as you wish, and to a maximum of once or twice per short/long rest.

Yeah, to be fair it sounded cool in my head.
One idea I could use is giving them an additional use of their spell recall per long rest and allow them to use their spell recall on a critical hit.

EDIT
Changes:

Magus capstone now has a 1/short rest limit with the ability to recover up to 5 slot levels
Bloodrush typo fixed (thank you)
Split shot completely reworded to only proc on an Attack action as to prevent it combining with other spell shooting shenanigans

Ok that should help for now, what am I at now ver 1.65? anyhoo tweaking happened, rip away playgrounders.

Side Note: Is there anything that you would like to see as another option for the any of the AA?

Also special shout out to Ziegander, his Hexblade was a large inspiration for the subclass I have. His Hexblade can be found HERE. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?415297-D-amp-D-5e-The-Hexblade-(A-Base-Class-with-Three-Archetypes)&highlight=hexblade)

And i finally found it after some searching while i was trying to credit peeps for inspiring and stuff, I found where i got some ideas for the base class and the magus subclass. HERE (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?399246-Duskblade-class-with-Magus-and-Swiftblade-archetypes&highlight=5e+Duskblade) is Heavyfuel's duskblade.

Overall I think I have exactly what I wanted out of the Duxkblade. It's an arcane 1/2 caster who can keep up with the ranger and the paladin in combat without outshining them in how they contribute to the group. But it also doesn't outshine the fighter's EK subclass with its abilities, this to me is done by forcing it to rely on spell slots to keep up with the fighter's basic auto attack routine. And lastly it doesn't outshine the full casters, granted that statement may be shaky as the spell list is still being looked over to the best of my knowledge.

Gr7mm Bobb

2015-12-16, 06:31 PM

Ok, arcane strike has been changed. It no longer lasts the entire turn, but instead can trigger once per attack with the attack action or with weapon based opportunity attacks.

Also i am fomulating a plan to have the hexblades curse be set up through a boosted hex spell and eventual combination with the Bestow curse spell effects. I feel that the hexblade as it is a bit oppressive with how general the grouping is. I don't want to make it concentration based and nerf his other control aspects and making him vunerable. which makes the other direction needed to limit the scope of the debuff he throws around.

So please if possible i would like a to see what the playground offers up in a 'think-tank at a glance' for this. Thank you all for your time.

Gr7mm Bobb

2016-05-11, 09:03 PM

Back in the saddle of this project again for some polishing and such.

Hexblades Curse Feature has been the target of this update with. Hopefully some toned back raw power and added flexibility it'll be a bit less oppressively unfair.

Also some of the new UA fighting styles have been added. As usual link is in OP and you comments, questions, and concerns are appreciated.

In cae you don't feel like scrolling/paging back:1.8 (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fntmKg1Uvlcx69CmgADko0Xr1XaMLu7LKOczn1ULzyU/edit?usp=sharing)

Sirithhyando

2016-05-12, 08:09 AM

Simply love the class, meant to try my hand for the duskblade.
Thought at first it would do well as an archetype but no, this one i prefer, it's awesome.
Great work :smallbiggrin:

One thing, the Reavers Talent, i'd put the spell as being always prepared and that it doesn't count in your number of spell you can prepare. I think some other class does it that way too and it would probably be a good thing here too. Though unsure if it would be broken, but it doesn't give another spellslot so it's should be good.

Gr7mm Bobb

2016-05-12, 11:12 AM

Ty for the feedback. Because this class is a spontaneous caster (like the paladin or ranger classes it's to rival) adding Hex to the Hexblades Spells known should help establish that they always have the spell because they Know the spell. Did my best to follow the format presented in the PHB for characters gaining free spells known.

I feel that the wizard reference was a bad move on my part when describing spell casting. . . But hey it worked for the Eldritch Knight.

If you do use this, please let me know how it went and what parts need tweaking.

Gr7mm Bobb

2016-09-06, 01:30 PM

Ok, so I've been keeping up with this for the most part and have been super grateful to those that have helped with editing. (Formatting, clarification, balance, etc.) Because I still see people frequent the Document I posted I would like to ask, who would like to see this processed into a "book" styled format for use?

I will try and keep the class updated as needed for the sake of balance and fluff. As most people, I've at least tried to learn from my experiences so there will still be changes to be made and polishing to be done.

Sicarius Victis

2016-09-08, 10:38 PM

Gr7mm Bobb

2016-09-09, 12:43 PM

I like gish classes. They just suit me. So because of that, I figured that I might as well take a look at this class. So these are my comments.

Magical Attunement: Alright. The other 1/2 casters don't get cantrips, but their themes suit cantrips a lot less than this one anyways. Is the D3tect Magic to make up for them not having rituals? If so, might as well go all the way and give them that with Identify at some level.
Worth considering, thinking of archetype stuffings for that maybe.

Arcane Strike: Interesting. Does a -1 average damage per die make up for getting advantage? IMO, it does. After all, advantage isn't all that hard to get in 5e. Besides, you can't wait until you see whether you hit or miss BEFORE using it this way.
Thanks, I felt the same as well. I wanted an "arcane smite" without being a direct ripoff, just a partial one.

Arcane Channeling: Are you limited to melee or ranged spell or weapon attacks here? Do the spell attack and the weapon attack have to be the same type? Do secondary effect of the spell that don't affect the attack roll still trigger?
No limit on range, so you can firebolt and stab with a dagger, or shocking grasp with a longbow. The secondary effects are still applied and any subsequent saves are applied.

Improved Arcane Strike: A level earlier than Paladin, at the cost of -1 damage per die? Not sure about this one...
Didn't have too much of an issue with this because it's between the Cleric and the Paladin. And the classes chassis is built to be a bit more aggressive.

Breaker: Adding INT to channeled spell and weapon damage? On top of the STR/DEX that both of those would have anyways?
Yes...? That's the intent. It's 18th level, felt safe.

Hexblade: Skipping it because it's not my area of expertise.
fair

Magus:
• Bonus Proficiency: I get the idea, but just don't bother with giving someone armour proficieny at a level past third. If they survived this long, they don't need heavy armour.
It was a nugget that carried over from PF. Thinking of keeping it but also giving the magus the ability to ritual cast and learn wizard spells with the ritual tag.

• Spell Combat: War Magic, but with higher damage potential due to Channeled Spell and Extra Attack. Not sure on the balance of that...
It's a combination of the Bard's 'Battle Magic' and the Fighter's 'War Magic'. As written though, the sword and spell weaving is nerfed by not being able to Arcane Strike with a Channel Spell. Arcane strike requires an Attack Action or Opportunity attack. So yes, the overall potential output is higher then either of the parent class, but that to follow the Magus theme of master of blending spell and sword.

Side note, now that I'm thinking about it, I feel like I should add some wording to prevent the feat War Caster from getting around that. Maybe I should just chop off the ability to arcane channel with an Opportunity attack.

Arcane Archer:
• Arcane Points recharge on long rest? Standard is short or long, but since this is a subclass...Maybe if you give them 1/2 their level in points, and made it a short or long rest recharge? I don't know.
Already a d long rest to recover points, might take up the 1/2 character level though.

• Arrow Storm/Arrow of Slaying: Maybe you should make them require 18th level. AFAIK, nobody ever actually uses 20th-level abilities.
That's fair, changes already implemented.

• Conjure Ammunition: So if I fire a shot from one of these out of a longbow, it still only does 1d4 damage? Yep, I feel that I might need to clarify that better.

• Barrage Shot/Puncturing Shot/Split Shot: Are these meant to trigger off of the attack action? Because then you'll still have your Extra Attack after using one of those.
That was the intent. Leaving the player able to double or even triple tap these if desired (for thrown weapon users).

• Elemental Shot: Is the increased damage just for one attack, or does it last for as long as the second effect?
It applies the extra damage for the full duration.

• Blink Shot: Does the effect end after using it, or can youmrecover the arrow and keep teleporting with it?
Oops, nope, fixing that as well. Might have to install a range limit. 1200 feet of potential teleportation may be way overkill.

• Imbue Ammunition: By "source" is it considered to be where the spellcaster was standing when casting it, or is it considered to be the target/point of origin (for AoE)? When you say that "touch" spells get a free hit on the target, do you mean spells that only work in melee or do you mean spells that require spell attack rolls? If you only mean melee spells, what happens if I imbue a ranged spell? What happens when I imbue ammunition with spells that require multiple rolls, such as Scorching Ray or Arcane Darts? Do you imbue one piece of ammunition per attack, and each piece triggers a single attack? Actually, that's a pretty awesome idea. But if you went with that, it would be better to make Imbue a bonus action and just let them take the Attack action after using it.
Ok, clarified to to state the thrown or shot piece as you (instead of you). The ability was to allow for a form of 'proxy' casting.

Shoots arrow into middle of camp with scorching ray riding in it, arrow proceeds to shoot rays at creatures within the spells range of the arrow that you can see.
Or it can be used to get that couple extra range on a fireball.
Or tossing a web out at larger range. It's really designed for utility with a little extra damage if you really just want to shoot something with an arrow that has a bonus.
Imagine shooting a goblin with an arrow and then rays fire out of the arrow and blitz his friends as well.

Wording for touch clarified to 'spell attacks' and hopefully how that works, but ATM feels like a giant pile of text that could have the fat trimmed off. As cool as it would be to shoot an arrow for each ray off of scorching ray, that seems like an unnecessary clunky and drawn out ability.

• Snapshot: Do you spend the points whenever you make an OA? Do you spend the points to get the effect for a set amount of time? If so, how long? The points are spent as part of the Attack of Opportunity.

• Spellwarped Shot: Besides the "No AoE" part, what's the difference between this and Imbue Ammunition?
Ok, so this ability is designed to let you take an AoE only spell or Save only damage spell and channel it into an attack roll instead. With extra damage for reducing the AoE into single target. Because who doesn't like sniping with a fireball.

A lot of the reason for the action finagling and specific wording is to prevent inadvertent overlap of abilities that would cause disproportionate amounts of power.

Rerem115

2016-09-09, 04:37 PM

I did the damage calculations for Arcane Strike vs Paladin. Note that advantage nearly doubles your critical chance.

Assuming you hit on an 11 or higher (assuming greatsword for both):
Paladin 5
2 attacks with Smite = 2 x [(3d8+2d6+3) x (.5) + (3d8+2d6) x (.05)]
Average DPR = 2 x 14.15, or 28.30
Uses as many 2nd level slots as attacks that hit (one on average)

Duskblade 5
2 Attacks with Arcane Strike = 2 x [(2d6+2d6+3) x (.75) + (2d6+2d6) x (.0975)]
Average DPR = 2 x 14.25+1.56, or 31.72
Uses a single 2nd level slots no matter what.

Thanks to advantage, you actually out damage the paladin.

Assuming you hit on an 11 or higher:
Paladin 20
2 attacks with Smite = 2 x [(5d8+2d6+1d8+5) x (.5) + (5d8+2d6+1d8) x (.05)]
Average DPR = 2 x 21.5+1.9, or 46.80
Uses as many 4th level slots as attacks that hit (one on average)

Duskblade 20
2 Attacks with Arcane Strike = 2 x [(4d6+2d6+1d6+5) x (.75) + (4d6+2d6+1d6) x (.0975)]
Average DPR = 2 x 24.75+2.73, or 54.96
Uses a single 4th level slot no matter what.

As you scale, the gap in DPR widens, with the the Duskblade in the lead (And, since they still get a bonus if they burn 5th level slots, can go even higher).

Now, I'd probably be cool with that, if the rest of the class wasn't so powerful. Here are a couple of features that lend themselves easily to abuse/are just really strong.

1. Hexblade's Curse. Granting the enemy disadvantage on attack rolls and either attack rolls or saving throws is really strong, especially when you can do it up to 9 times a day. Now, since this requires concentration and a saving throw, I'd call it fair, but since you can use in in conjunction with Hex (one of the best concentration spells) and spread it to another creature as a bonus action every turn, you have an incredible amount of damage and crowd control on top of your already fantastic damage.

2. Spell Combat. This thumbs its nose at the concept of the action economy. You now can now smite twice, then either channel EB or Firebolt in melee range, or use GFB or Booming Blade, sending your DPR through the roof, especially at 14+, when your enemies have disadvantage on saves from the cantrips. Without using SCAG, it lets you add 2d10-4d10+5 damage per round, while still letting you trigger things like PAM or GWM. Compare that to the paladin, who gets at most 3d8 (dual wielding)

3. Battle Hardened. Expertise in concentration saves is incredibly powerful for a gish; you'd pretty much never have to worry about concentration ever again.

4. Barrage Shot. Turning your weapon attacks (including smites, spell buffs, Improved Arcane Smite, and Int modifier) into AoEs turns you into an even better blaster than the Sorcerer.

5. Your spell list. Not really sure how to fix this, but your spell list is a laundry list of all the best gish and evocation spells save Hex and Hunter's Mark....which you can get as part of a subclass.

Overall, I'd call this class overtuned. It does everything well. Your spell list grants probably the best utility of a half caster; you even have cantrips, so you can keep up the magical utility without spell slots. You have some of the only spell recovery available to a half caster, so you can do it all day. You have equal or better damage than the paladin, and can do so at range. If there's a social/out of combat challenge you're not good at, you've got a spell for that. You can even keep up with the rogue with regards to some skills; the Arcane Archer has floating proficiency/expertise in 3 skills.

Sicarius Victis

2016-09-09, 04:51 PM

Worth considering, thinking of archetype stuffings for that maybe.

In keeping with the Pathfinder theme, (and, I suppose, as some added symbolism for the Arcane Archer) perhaps an ability similar to the Arrowsong's Lament Bardic Masterpiece, giving them one spell that they can use this for and giving them the ability to change it from a small list of spells each day.

Thanks, I felt the same as well. I wanted an "arcane smite" without being a direct ripoff, just a partial one.

I like it. It's similar to Smite, but it's unique enough to be its own ability. Also synergizes quite well with GWM and Sharpshooter. Not entirely sure on the balance of that, but it's still quite fun.

No limit on range, so you can firebolt and stab with a dagger, or shocking grasp with a longbow. The secondary effects are still applied and any subsequent saves are applied.

I thought so, but I figured it could do with a bit more clarification.

Didn't have too much of an issue with this because it's between the Cleric and the Paladin. And the classes chassis is built to be a bit more aggressive.

Seems fair, to be honest. And it's not like Paladins don't get other nice things. Really, Paladin is easily one of the most powerful classes in the game, and is a contender for the most powerful.

Yes...? That's the intent. It's 18th level, felt safe.

Alright, just wanted clarification again. Better than the Ranger ability, but in 5e just about everything is better than the Ranger's abilities.

It was a nugget that carried over from PF. Thinking of keeping it but also giving the magus the ability to ritual cast and learn wizard spells with the ritual tag.

I get why it's there. I just feel like there are some better possible uses for this level. Honestly, it wasn't a great ability in Pathfinder either. I feel like there are a couple better abilities to transter over. Maybe something based off of Knowledge Pool or the weapon enhancements, or maybe some of the Arcana.

It's a combination of the Bard's 'Battle Magic' and the Fighter's 'War Magic'. As written though, the sword and spell weaving is nerfed by not being able to Arcane Strike with a Channel Spell. Arcane strike requires an Attack Action or Opportunity attack. So yes, the overall potential output is higher then either of the parent class, but that to follow the Magus theme of master of blending spell and sword.

The second part, the one that works like War Magic or Battle Magic, there's nothing wrong with. I'm just not entirely sure about the first part, the one that lets you attack twice and cast a cantrip. I can see that being abused, even without channeling the cantrip. SCAG spells, or something.

Side note, now that I'm thinking about it, I feel like I should add some wording to prevent the feat War Caster from getting around that. Maybe I should just chop off the ability to arcane channel with an Opportunity attack.

Might be a good idea, to be honest.

Already a d long rest to recover points, might take up the 1/2 character level though.

I'd suggest either or. While you don't want to have too many, you also want the player to have enough to be able to use their abilities more than once or twice per long rest.

That was the intent. Leaving the player able to double or even triple tap these if desired (for thrown weapon users).

Alright. I suppose there's no better class than a Duskblade to go nova. Except maybe pyromancers, who might literally go nova.

It applies the extra damage for the full duration.

Just looking for clarification again.

Oops, nope, fixing that as well. Might have to install a range limit. 1200 feet of potential teleportation may be way overkill.

Up to 10000+ feet, if you hadn't changed that. Yeah, that's best off only being one use per activation. And maybe just make it not be combinable with Far Shot?

Ok, clarified to to state the thrown or shot piece as you (instead of you). The ability was to allow for a form of 'proxy' casting.

Alright. I was hoping for the old Arcane Archer's ability to attach a fireball to an arrow, then shoot it at someone and blow up everyone around them.

Shoots arrow into middle of camp with scorching ray riding in it, arrow proceeds to shoot rays at creatures within the spells range of the arrow that you can see.

So you basically turn your arrow into a 360-degree laser turret? Then again, since Scorching Ray uses spell attacks it would just hit whatever you shot anyways.

Or it can be used to get that couple extra range on a fireball.
Or tossing a web out at larger range. It's really designed for utility with a little extra damage if you really just want to shoot something with an arrow that has a bonus.

Yeah, the utility purposes are mainly what this will be used for.

Imagine shooting a goblin with an arrow and then rays fire out of the arrow and blitz his friends as well.

I cannot deny the amazingness of that imagery.

Wording for touch clarified to 'spell attacks' and hopefully how that works, but ATM feels like a giant pile of text that could have the fat trimmed off.

True. However, everything must have some sort of flaw.

As cool as it would be to shoot an arrow for each ray off of scorching ray, that seems like an unnecessary clunky and drawn out ability.

Maybe. I just liked the idea of enhancing a handful of arrows with small spell abilities as well, but I suppose that's kind of stepping on the toes of Magic Weapon and similar effects.

The points are spent as part of the Attack of Opportunity.

Honestly, that feels unnecessarily costly to me. 2 points to make an OA with a bow? Not sure about that one.

Ok, so this ability is designed to let you take an AoE only spell or Save only damage spell and channel it into an attack roll instead. With extra damage for reducing the AoE into single target. Because who doesn't like sniping with a fireball.

Alright. Feels like it could be a bit earlier level, though. And does it add additional effects from the spell? Could I Spellwarp a Thunderwave or something similar, and knock someone back with it? I mean, it's not that useful when you can just Channel a Force Palm or a Thunderpunch, but it's just an example. Would that work?

Also, another side benefit of this: Since it creates ammunition, as long as you have points and spell slots you can keep Spellwarping whether or not you have shots left.

A lot of the reason for the action finagling and specific wording is to prevent inadvertent overlap of abilities that would cause disproportionate amounts of power.

Yeah, that makes sense.

Still a really neat class. I plan on playing a 6th-level Arcane Archer in a game soon. I figure my standard tactic will be combining Arcane Strike, Far Shot, and Sharpshooter to make a very sniper-focused character, while using Channeled Force Palm or Thunderpunch to keep people away and Blood Blade to stay stocked on ammunition. If I encounter anything noteworthy while using any of your homebrew things, I'll make sure to mention it on either this thread or your spell thread.

Side note: Is it just me, or do the two UA fighting styles (Mariner and Close-Quarters Shooter) feel a lot more powerful than the rest?

Gr7mm Bobb

2016-09-09, 09:50 PM

As you scale, the gap in DPR widens, with the the Duskblade in the lead (And, since they still get a bonus if they burn 5th level slots, can go even higher).

Now, I'd probably be cool with that, if the rest of the class wasn't so powerful. Here are a couple of features that lend themselves easily to abuse/are just really strong.

1. Hexblade's Curse. Granting the enemy disadvantage on attack rolls and either attack rolls or saving throws is really strong, especially when you can do it up to 9 times a day. Now, since this requires concentration and a saving throw, I'd call it fair, but since you can use in in conjunction with Hex (one of the best concentration spells) and spread it to another creature as a bonus action every turn, you have an incredible amount of damage and crowd control on top of your already fantastic damage.

Okay, so I've already changed up the function of the Hexblade's later abilities to nip away at some of the power in it. Toying with the idea of having a 'Hexblade's Curse Die' that you apply to a creature affected by the curse that is rolled alongside the associated Atk Roll, Specific Saving throw, Ability checks, or damage rolls. I did remove the sheer power from the spread of the curse, limited to critting or dropping mooks to move it about.

2. Spell Combat. This thumbs its nose at the concept of the action economy. You now can now smite twice, then either channel EB or Firebolt in melee range, or use GFB or Booming Blade, sending your DPR through the roof, especially at 14+, when your enemies have disadvantage on saves from the cantrips. Without using SCAG, it lets you add 2d10-4d10+5 damage per round, while still letting you trigger things like PAM or GWM. Compare that to the paladin, who gets at most 3d8 (dual wielding)

I can see why this would be an issue when placed alongside the much tankier Paladin.

3. Battle Hardened. Expertise in concentration saves is incredibly powerful for a gish; you'd pretty much never have to worry about concentration ever again.

Hmmm, maybe pull a page out of the paladins book and instead let them apply their Int Mod to concentration saves only? Only problem with that though, the paladin doesn't have proficiency in Constitution saving throws.

4. Barrage Shot. Turning your weapon attacks (including smites, spell buffs, Improved Arcane Smite, and Int modifier) into AoEs turns you into an even better blaster than the Sorcerer.

Poop, yep, that was a plausible thing to do and outside my intended scope... Ok, making it possible only as an action.

5. Your spell list. Not really sure how to fix this, but your spell list is a laundry list of all the best gish and evocation spells save Hex and Hunter's Mark....which you can get as part of a subclass.

The intent on most of the spell list was to provide the same level of blasting and utility that the original Gish concepts brought to the game. Mobility fixers, minor field control and the ability to solve problems. The efficiency of these though is not supposed to outshine it's parent classes at their specialty.

Rangers (Hunter) being the ultimate martial druid/fighters
Fighters (EKnight) being a master swordsman with a mystical leg up.
Rogues being the skill monkeys and one-hit-wonders.
Sorcerer's being the blasters. (that's just how I see them).
Warlocks are the mystics with reliable abilities and powerful tricks of the arcane and other.
and Wizards being a magical batman.

The Duskblade is to find a niche between the Eldritch Knight and the Bladesong Wizard and combining the flavors of either. I was hoping that their average Hit Dice and medium armor proficiency would make them have to play safe like the warlock or bard. The Magus archetype was to be a fusion of an arcane caster and a warrior.

Overall, I'd call this class overtuned. It does everything well. Your spell list grants probably the best utility of a half caster; you even have cantrips, so you can keep up the magical utility without spell slots. You have some of the only spell recovery available to a half caster, so you can do it all day. You have equal or better damage than the paladin, and can do so at range. If there's a social/out of combat challenge you're not good at, you've got a spell for that. You can even keep up with the rogue with regards to some skills; the Arcane Archer has floating proficiency/expertise in 3 skills.

Cantrips: I think that if I remove the utility ones and have only the combat relevant ones remain, so it becomes more of a choice of (what do i stab them with vs. how to steal the gaurds keys from 30 feet away. Made a comment next to the cantrips that game balance could cut. Even with the many revamps, revists and updates, I have deliberately withheld the weapon delivered cantrips from this class. I had the weapon delivered spell mechanics worked out and really don't want the new SKAG cantrips skewing the numbers even further. If you want to jank around with that sort of thing, multi class or burn a feat. This thought isn't concrete, but needed to remain focused at the time.

The equal/better damage than the paladin was known and accepted for the most part. How much more powerful is still needing to be tweaked. But the Paladin excel's at one thing, raw defense. The paladin can stalwart harder than any other class. It has Full armor prof, shields, healing, defensive spells and features that get shared with his allies. The duskblade is a lot more selfish and fragile than the paladin is. His contributions are through damage and control vice defense and mitigation.

The bit about the AA and Deadshot Intuition, that's fair. Removing the Expertise function of that feature would probably be for the best but the floating skill prof is in line with WotC's Mystic and the Mind Vault Discipline (the mystic doesn't even spend a resource to do this). I could take a page out of the mystic's book with the 'borrowed expertise' function and require the expense of a resource to gain Adv on the next check made with one of those 3 skills.

I sincerely appreciate your input and the much needed criticism. I have put a like of time and effort into this class and hope that it will be valued by many. (many because all is impossible, nerds are rarely unanimous)

Gr7mm Bobb

2016-09-12, 12:26 PM

2. Spell Combat. This thumbs its nose at the concept of the action economy. You now can now smite twice, then either channel EB or Firebolt in melee range, or use GFB or Booming Blade, sending your DPR through the roof, especially at 14+, when your enemies have disadvantage on saves from the cantrips. Without using SCAG, it lets you add 2d10-4d10+5 damage per round, while still letting you trigger things like PAM or GWM. Compare that to the paladin, who gets at most 3d8 (dual wielding)
Ok did some math with various other classes involved:

This is assuming all weapon attacks hit, each relevant modifier is a +3, and the weapon used is 1d8, no combat styles applied.

Duskblade

11th Level Magus
2 attacks w/ arcane strike with max slots available (lvl 3) + Firebolt channeled: (1d8 + 5d6 +3) x2 + 3d10 + 3 = 69.5

14th Level Magus
Spell slots 1 4th, 3 3rd level, same approach as above: (1d8 + 5d6 + 3) x2 + 1d6 + 3d10 +3 = 73

18th Level Magus
Spell slots 1 5th, 3 4th level, GSP(breaker is active): (1d8 + 6d6 + 6) x2 + 1d6 + 4d10 + 6 = 88.5

Paladin

11th level Paladin
2 attacks + spell smite (thunderous smite), max slots are the same as duskblade: (1d8 + 5d8 + 3) x2 + 4d6 = 74 add 6 if Oathbreaker for 80

14th level Paladin
2 attacks + spell smite (thunderous), spell slots same as Duskblade: (1d8 + 5d8 + 3) x2 + 1d8 + 4d6 = 78.5 add 6 OB for 84.5

18th level Paladin
2 attacks + spell smite (thunderous), spell slots same as Duskblade: (1d8 + 6d8 +3) x2 + 1d8 + 5d6 = 91 and 6 for OB for 97

Ok here's the hairy part where multi-classing takes hold and messes with the numbers a tad.

Those Multi-class Shenanigans

Warlock 2 + Duskblade 12 = 14th level total
2 attacks + Eldritch Blast, spell slot avail are 3 3rd level: (1d8 + 5d6 + 3) x2 + 3d10 +15 = 81.5

Bard(Lore) 7 + Pally(Oathbreaker) 7 = 14th level total
2 attacks + Spell Smite(thunderous); Spell slots 2 5th level, 1 4th: (1d8 + 6d8 + 3) x2 + 5d6 = 86.5 add 6 for OB pally for 92.5

Warlock 2 + Duskblade 11 + Pally(Oathbreaker) 7 = 20th level total
2 attacks + Eldritch Blast; Spell slots 1 5th, 3 4th level (1d8 + 6d8 + 6) x2 + 1d8 + 4d10 + 18 = 119.5 with the Channel ability as written.
Written to ensure bonus damage to multi-hit spells is only applied once, the damage is pulled back into a more tame 110.5 without the looming threat of multiplied damage.

There are a couple of things to note while looking at these. When a Duskblade uses its Arcane Strike feature, it does have advantage on the attack. This is only equaled by a Vengeance Paladin using its Channel divinity to gain advantage against a single selected target. The multi-class business is not meant to be complete, just to be a list of examples that hopefully show potential issues. Also, the Magus has a better spell recovery than any other 1/2 caster, which is made up for by being less defensively inclined than the paladin.

Speaking of issues, as written, the agonizing blast invocation causes the numbers to become out of hand. With that being said I am beginning to work on a way to state Arcane Channel in such a way that the bonus damage from Agonizing blast is only applied once. Overall though, this has shown that the paladin still is winning in terms of potential damage dealt with the Duskblade keeping up by having advantage to ensure its Arcane strikes deal the damage they need to.

3. Battle Hardened. Expertise in concentration saves is incredibly powerful for a gish; you'd pretty much never have to worry about concentration ever again.

I see where you are coming from with this one and have considered making it either 1/2 prof or just equal to the characters Int Modifier like the paladin has for its blanket save buff it gets.

Again, thank you guys for your help. Also updated to read as 1.9.

Made changes to: Hexblades curse, and subsequent 15th level feature. Arcane channel to curb in the damage spike that Spell Combat and Agonizing Blast were doing together. Added Ritual casting to Magus (may chop it off but we'll see, maybe just removing the Heavy armor prof will be good enough. Removed some cantrips from the spell list. May add the SCAG ones just for completeness. Restored the original intent of Spell Puncture.

PapaQuackers

2016-09-12, 12:57 PM

Gr7mm Bobb

2016-09-12, 01:43 PM

So just looking at this briefly I'm also having trouble deciding why I wouldn't be an Arcane Archer. I get the medium armor proficiency still, I retain my spell progression, I have a host of powerful maneuvers and all my arcane archer stuff consumes an entirely different resource. On top of that I STILL retain the ability to deliver my spells with my bow and arrow since it does not specifically state that I must make a melee attack with the weapon.

So could you give me a justification for picking the other Archetypes besides flavor? Because I'm feeling a major power imbalance. Maybe you could make the Arcane Maneuvers take up a spell slot instead of the point system?

In addition perhaps amend Arcane Channeling to specifically stipulate melee weapons?

So those are a couple of things that's I've been mulling over since I started to rework and tweak the class. As it stands limiting Arcane Channeling to melee would just put the ball firmly in the archers court.
Things to consider

Removing the blanket med Armor Proficiency and having the other 2 archetypes gain the med armor use.
Reducing the number of AA points down to 1/2 DB level.
With the Arcane pool total being lower, considering replacing current 15th level ability with 1/2 of the sorcerer ability to make points out of slots.

Death from afar is cool and being artillery is great, BUT when the artillery starts behaving like a real life tank, like M1A1 Abrams, then maybe I need to reconsider my base model.

Sicarius Victis

2016-09-12, 07:30 PM

Without multiclassing, a typical Magus will use GFB or BB for Spell Combat, allowing them to make an additional attack for increased damage. Standard Magus loadout will be either Rapier/Longsword and shield for defense, or greatsword for damage. By 11th level a VHuman Magus could have 20 STR and GWM, as they don't need to worry about boosting their INT all that much. That means an offensive Magus using Arcane Strike will be attacking twice at +9 and advantage for 6d6+5 damage each, or with +4 and advantage for 6d6+15, as well as attacking again for 2d6+2d8 (IIRC) +5-15. I don't know how the math adds up for all of that, but that's still an impressive amount of damage, and even without Arcane Strike that's more at-will damage than a fighter.

Gr7mm Bobb

2016-09-23, 11:01 PM

Alrighty playgrounders, yet another run through the saw mill for this project and drastic enough changes were made that I can now confidently that this project has now udated to be Duskblade 2.0 (https://goo.gl/uuidyr). (also updated in OP) So here's a brief, most likely incomplete, list of changes:

Expanded spell lists added to each archetype.
Hexblade Curse wording description cleaned up and reformatted for a more concise read. Now uses a 'Hex Die' instead of Adv/DisAdv.
Reorganization of the Hexblade 'Reavers Talent' to include modularity for expanded spell list.
Removed some of the Arcane Archers tricks and tweaked a few others to accommodate expanded spell list and allow for greater control.
Spell list removals made. Some removed completely, others moved to archetype specific spell lists.

I still feel like a laundry list of things can be improved upon/discussed:

Spells in expanded spell list are not set in stone.
Wording of 'Reavers Talent' in the hexblade. The potential Bane + HB curse combo does raise concerns, I fear my wording may not have been enough to dissuade the possibility. The intent is that it is NOT to be possible at all.
Should I increase the number of spells known by 1 (would make it 1 above the ranger)? Or just allow one free spell known from the Expanded Spell list?
Should I force arcane channeling to require the channeled spell remain within the spells range and type (melee/range) instead of its current setting as the weapons range? I don't want to do that, but it might help provide identity to the AA. (which seems to be seen as the most potent)
Name change for Hexblade's 15th level "Fortunate Misfortune" to "Ill Gotten Gains".
Change the name of the Arcane Archer's points into sorcery points, but still mechanically can only make more points by expending slots. This would allow for less confusing char sheets and would fall in line with the Cleric and Paladins channel divinity leveling together.
Fluffy Fluff descriptions could be way better. Like not maybe written by an engineering operator who has the lowest literature schooling to be managed for their needs.
Spell list is still being tweaked as well, totally open for more recommendations for addition/removal.

Is this at least getting close(r) to being DM's Guild material or better?

ZeroKnight

2016-09-25, 03:48 PM

First I wanted to thank you for making this class. I played this the other day in a one shot. The duskblade was my favorite class in 3.5 as was the magus in pathfinder so I'm very pleased someone is making a 5e port.

I was level 6 and played the magus archetype using rapier and shield. I liked it quite a bit over all but I had a few comments.

Arcane strike felt really good, being able to get advantage on an attack with some extra damage for a spell really helped in combat. It also let me focus on defensive and utility spells which made the class feel very flexible in what it can do.

Maybe I'm missing something but arcane channeling felt of kind weak, I more often than not did more damage making two attacks than I did channeling a spell/cantrip.

I also feel the same way that you do about the magus, it just kinda does what the base class does better. While there is nothing inherently wrong with that perhaps it can be given something a bit more unique earlier than 11? The big draw to the archetype as it stands is spell combat (which doesn't come till 11) and the fighting style (which is awesome but nothing new).

Keep up the great work and I definitely think this is DM's guild material!

Gr7mm Bobb

2016-09-25, 07:08 PM

First I wanted to thank you for making this class. I played this the other day in a one shot. The duskblade was my favorite class in 3.5 as was the magus in pathfinder so I'm very pleased someone is making a 5e port.
Glad to hear it.

Maybe I'm missing something but arcane channeling felt of kind weak, I more often than not did more damage making two attacks than I did channeling a spell/cantrip.

Ok, I think I see where you are coming from with this. You are correct in noticing that channeling isn't going to be optimal at all times. It is there to allow for the option to deliver your attacks in an area your opponent isn't defending in. It's there to allow for versatility to your cantrips and spells so you can do things with them that no other cast can.

I also feel the same way that you do about the magus, it just kinda does what the base class does better. While there is nothing inherently wrong with that perhaps it can be given something a bit more unique earlier than 11? The big draw to the archetype as it stands is spell combat (which doesn't come till 11) and the fighting style (which is awesome but nothing new).

The magus was designed to become more wizard-like as they progress. They are the only 1/2 caster (archetype or otherwise) that is able to recover spell slots. It gains that ability at level 3 and with more instantaneous results as the capstone. At 3rd level the magus gains more spells to add to its repitoire and at 7th level they gain even more spellcasting potency with the ability to have and use a ritual book using the wizards spell list. A lot of the Magus's raw power comes from its ability to use magic on a much more liberal basis.

I do think that the beginning stages of the magus may feel a little bland at first, but it falls in line with the Lore Bard gaining an expansion on its already impressive skill range and a wider range of uses for it existing Inspiration.

Keep up the great work and I definitely think this is DM's guild material!
Once this class is finished I'll see about putting it up there for a "pay what you want".

Thank you for the feedback and the playtest info. I hope I was at least helpful with your inquiries.

Ze_Azrael

2016-09-29, 07:26 PM

Ok, I think I see where you are coming from with this. You are correct in noticing that channeling isn't going to be optimal at all times. It is there to allow for the option to deliver your attacks in an area your opponent isn't defending in. It's there to allow for versatility to your cantrips and spells so you can do things with them that no other cast can.

Can you explain how this works? How is it letting you do things other casters can't? The way I read it it's only letting you use your STR/DEX in place of your INT as the Spell Attack Roll (and then there's the debatable, unclear part of whether you add your STR/DEX Modifier to the damage as you would with a Weapon, I'm gonna assume you don't for now), it's still targetting AC. So you could for example, use a Warhammer to deliver a Ranged Spell Attack Roll, adding STR+Proficiency to the die roll.
Since it only affects spells that already have Attack Rolls, it's not like you can target AC instead of Wisdom for a Hold Person spell or anything... Granted, there's one other thing I see in the high-risk/high-reward mechanic of being able to use a single Attack Roll to hit with all 3 beams of Scorching Ray.

Also the way you have it currently worded, it completely ignores any sort of modifiers (Advantage/Disadvantage, Bane/Bless, Archery FS, etc), even if they're completely external to the spell being Channeled. I guess this could be a feature instead of a bug, as most spells use Ranged Spell Attack Rolls which would mean disadvantage if using a (non-reach) melee weapon to Channel them... And it gives you a reliable way to cast a spell regardless of the circumstances. This of course at the cost of whether the circumstances are good or bad. So not sure if this is intended or not...

The magus was designed to become more wizard-like as they progress. They are the only 1/2 caster (archetype or otherwise) that is able to recover spell slots. It gains that ability at level 3 and with more instantaneous results as the capstone. At 3rd level the magus gains more spells to add to its repitoire and at 7th level they gain even more spellcasting potency with the ability to have and use a ritual book using the wizards spell list. A lot of the Magus's raw power comes from its ability to use magic on a much more liberal basis.

About Arcane Dabbling at 3rd level... This is dangerous... Hypothetically it allows a full caster (say Cleric) to take 17 levels in their class and then Multiclass into Magus to steal any two 9th level Wizard/Sorcerer spells.
Also the way you have it worded right now reads as though you can choose either: (two 1st level spells) or (a cantrip).

I would suggest swapping it with the Heavy Armor (and STR saves if you want). It feels awkward wanting to build a STR-based Duskblade and having to wait until 7th level to get your armor... All sub-classes that grant additional proficiencies do so when you take the sub-class. It's almost on a level with a Lore Bard's Additional Magical Secrets. There's actually a nice parallelism in the one-level difference with the Valor Bard's Extra Attack.

Gr7mm Bobb

2016-09-29, 10:38 PM

Can you explain how this works? How is it letting you do things other casters can't? The way I read it it's only letting you use your STR/DEX in place of your INT as the Spell Attack Roll (and then there's the debatable, unclear part of whether you add your STR/DEX Modifier to the damage as you would with a Weapon, I'm gonna assume you don't for now), it's still targetting AC. So you could for example, use a Warhammer to deliver a Ranged Spell Attack Roll, adding STR+Proficiency to the die roll.
Since it only affects spells that already have Attack Rolls, it's not like you can target AC instead of Wisdom for a Hold Person spell or anything... Granted, there's one other thing I see in the high-risk/high-reward mechanic of being able to use a single Attack Roll to hit with all 3 beams of Scorching Ray.

Thought i had it clear, maybe I should look into rewording it(i know i've had to with other things in this). When you channel a spell into a weapon attack, the weapon damage dice are replaced with the spells damage (if any). Because it is still a weapon attack roll, you get to add your str/dex as appropriate. I just ninja'd in some clarification on that because you brought up a great point. Hoping that helps.

Also the way you have it currently worded, it completely ignores any sort of modifiers (Advantage/Disadvantage, Bane/Bless, Archery FS, etc), even if they're completely external to the spell being Channeled. I guess this could be a feature instead of a bug, as most spells use Ranged Spell Attack Rolls which would mean disadvantage if using a (non-reach) melee weapon to Channel them... And it gives you a reliable way to cast a spell regardless of the circumstances. This of course at the cost of whether the circumstances are good or bad. So not sure if this is intended or not...

That was an oops. As it stands I'm still mulling it out in my head how to word it so outside attacks modifiers are ok, but the ones from the spell are not. My main concern was the archer just obliterating armored foes with shocking grasp at 600 feet and using the adv bit of shocking grasp.

My other idea is to increase the number of cantrips gained overall, but limiting the channeling to require you to be in the melee or range as the spell would require.

As is (by intent, maybe not by good writing), channeling a firebolt into a sword does not pose disadv if you are threatened because you would be making a melee weapon attack.

About Arcane Dabbling at 3rd level... This is dangerous... Hypothetically it allows a full caster (say Cleric) to take 17 levels in their class and then Multiclass into Magus to steal any two 9th level Wizard/Sorcerer spells.
Also the way you have it worded right now reads as though you can choose either: (two 1st level spells) or (a cantrip).

Hoo-boy, that couldn't have been a RAW nightmare (kinda like some of the pre-errata 5e PHB). Anyway, did another ninja edit to try and fix that problem.

I would suggest swapping it with the Heavy Armor (and STR saves if you want). It feels awkward wanting to build a STR-based Duskblade and having to wait until 7th level to get your armor... All sub-classes that grant additional proficiencies do so when you take the sub-class. It's almost on a level with a Lore Bard's Additional Magical Secrets. There's actually a nice parallelism in the one-level difference with the Valor Bard's Extra Attack.

Hmm, you do bring up a point, and you aren't the first. Dropping the Str save prof probably wouldn't be too much of a nerf. Them gaining spell recall, heavy armor, AND a fighting style might be a little front loaded though. The Arcane dabbling being moved to 7th is not bad though, requires commitment.

As always, thank you for the much needed criticism.

While i have it on my mind, should i give the Hexblade fighting styles?

Ze_Azrael

2016-10-04, 07:15 PM

Thought i had it clear, maybe I should look into rewording it(i know i've had to with other things in this). When you channel a spell into a weapon attack, the weapon damage dice are replaced with the spells damage (if any). Because it is still a weapon attack roll, you get to add your str/dex as appropriate. I just ninja'd in some clarification on that because you brought up a great point. Hoping that helps.

Gotcha. I feel it is a bit unclear, it's a complicated feature after all.... Here's my rewording idea:

At 6th level, whenever you cast a spell requiring a Spell Attack, you can use a Weapon Attack instead. As normal, this attack uses your Strength / Dexterity as appropriate, but the weapon's damage dice are replaced by the spell's damage dice. You still add your Strength / Dexterity modifier to the damage dealt. All additional spell effects are applied normally. You cannot Channel a spell of 6th level or greater. Spells that require a melee spell attack roll can only be delivered with a melee weapon.
If a spell allows for multiple spell attack rolls when it's cast, the spell is delivered through a single weapon attack roll and the damage dice are pooled together. For example, if you Channel the 2nd level spell Scorching Ray using a Longsword, you can make a weapon attack using Strength, and on a hit the target takes fire damage equal to 6d6 + your Strength modifier.
If a spell allows for multiple attack rolls throughout it's duration, you deliver all of these through your weapon and must maintain Concentration as normal if the spell requires it. For example, if you Channel the 3rd level spell Vampiric Touch using a Longsword, you can make a weapon attack using Strength, on a hit, the target takes necrotic damage equal to 3d6 + your Strength modifier and you heal for half the amount of necrotic damage dealt. As per the spell, as long as you maintain Concentration you can use an action to repeat this attack, making a weapon attack with your Longsword each time.

That was an oops. As it stands I'm still mulling it out in my head how to word it so outside attacks modifiers are ok, but the ones from the spell are not. My main concern was the archer just obliterating armored foes with shocking grasp at 600 feet and using the adv bit of shocking grasp.

That's the risk of an ability like this... there are so many variables when it comes to spell effects so trying to homogenize them is quite difficult. I can't think off the top of my head of other spells like this, and if Shocking Grasp is the problematic outlier here, the easiest solution is simply to remove it imo.

As always, thank you for the much needed criticism.

No problem, I like where you're going with this class :)

While i have it on my mind, should i give the Hexblade fighting styles?

I agree the Hexblade is lacking in entry features when compared to the Magus and the Archer. Especially since the one feature they get can only be used once / rest (is it Short or Long? you don't specify). However I'm not sure giving them Fighting Styles is the solution, as then each archetype would get them and so it makes more sense for them to become a class feature instead... I couldn't think of a different thing to give them so I googled the 3.5 Hexblade and saw they get a Familiar.... Perhaps giving them Find Familiar as a Ritual?
If you want to go the FS route, a way to differentiate them could be to give them only the offensive FS's (so Dueling, GWF, TWF, Archery, QCS). This way the Hexblade has all the offensive ones and the other two have only a subset of the offensive ones, but also the choice of the defensive ones (I get an offensive vibe from this archetype which is why I suggest this).

As an aside, I would suggest reconsidering including UA FS's, specifically Tunnel Fighter. I have a player who built around this and due to party makeup and us playing OotA, he makes it really hard for me to play encounters without blatantly meta-countering this lol

Gr7mm Bobb

2016-10-13, 12:33 PM

Gotcha. I feel it is a bit unclear, it's a complicated feature after all.... Here's my rewording idea:

At 6th level, whenever you cast a spell requiring a Spell Attack, you can use a Weapon Attack instead. As normal, this attack uses your Strength / Dexterity as appropriate, but the weapon's damage dice are replaced by the spell's damage dice. You still add your Strength / Dexterity modifier to the damage dealt. All additional spell effects are applied normally. You cannot Channel a spell of 6th level or greater. Spells that require a melee spell attack roll can only be delivered with a melee weapon.
If a spell allows for multiple spell attack rolls when it's cast, the spell is delivered through a single weapon attack roll and the damage dice are pooled together. For example, if you Channel the 2nd level spell Scorching Ray using a Longsword, you can make a weapon attack using Strength, and on a hit the target takes fire damage equal to 6d6 + your Strength modifier.
If a spell allows for multiple attack rolls throughout it's duration, you deliver all of these through your weapon and must maintain Concentration as normal if the spell requires it. For example, if you Channel the 3rd level spell Vampiric Touch using a Longsword, you can make a weapon attack using Strength, on a hit, the target takes necrotic damage equal to 3d6 + your Strength modifier and you heal for half the amount of necrotic damage dealt. As per the spell, as long as you maintain Concentration you can use an action to repeat this attack, making a weapon attack with your Longsword each time.

Thank you, I'm not going to do a full copy + paste of this, but it still has useful parts. Saying "throughout the duration" and then mentioning that you still need to maintain concentration is redundant because those spells have a duration of "concentration, up to X time limit" is a little redundant. The example is useful though and I get the feeling that when I put this into a polished pdf look I'll have a sidebar to help clarify.

That's the risk of an ability like this... there are so many variables when it comes to spell effects so trying to homogenize them is quite difficult. I can't think off the top of my head of other spells like this, and if Shocking Grasp is the problematic outlier here, the easiest solution is simply to remove it imo.

Limited the Melee spells to melee range, hasn't been out of hand. That and apparently I already had a ranged electric spell attack cantrip in my list (probably from my group). The way I see it is that my whole list of brewed spells is up for a case by case review. Most of it is tame, but others have been problematic. My biggest concern that shapes the design of this class is the material that WotC has published, not just endorsed, but fully published.

I agree the Hexblade is lacking in entry features when compared to the Magus and the Archer. Especially since the one feature they get can only be used once / rest (is it Short or Long? you don't specify). However I'm not sure giving them Fighting Styles is the solution, as then each archetype would get them and so it makes more sense for them to become a class feature instead... I couldn't think of a different thing to give them so I googled the 3.5 Hexblade and saw they get a Familiar.... Perhaps giving them Find Familiar as a Ritual?
If you want to go the FS route, a way to differentiate them could be to give them only the offensive FS's (so Dueling, GWF, TWF, Archery, QCS). This way the Hexblade has all the offensive ones and the other two have only a subset of the offensive ones, but also the choice of the defensive ones (I get an offensive vibe from this archetype which is why I suggest this).

The hexblade doesn't necessarily need a fighting style, but it definitely could use a little bolster to feel more gratifying. So i added a 3rd level feature that gives the player their choice of Intimidation or Deception (with the possibility to expertise). And a mechanic that might need clearing up. Its intent is to make identifying spells to cast and abilities used harder to nail down.

As an aside, I would suggest reconsidering including UA FS's, specifically Tunnel Fighter. I have a player who built around this and due to party makeup and us playing OotA, he makes it really hard for me to play encounters without blatantly meta-countering this lol

Yeah, they need another looksee, I like the point blank shooting one though, It is often trumped by grabbing the feats anyway, but in a featless game it is the only way to ignore the DisAdv for gut shooting people. However I seen that plenty of playgrounders HATE that bullet with a burning passion. I will say those are probably going in a sidebar as additional options to discuss with your DM.

Anyway changes made, we are now in 2.1.

Gr7mm Bobb

2017-01-11, 02:03 PM

Tweaks to Arcane Archer's trick cost to compensate for lower total arcane pool.

Also like to take the time and pose a question. Should Extra Attack be removed from the Base Class and added to select archetypes? If so which ones? Personally thinking it should be taken out of AA, but not sure how to replace such a solid ability. Most likely I'm considering nothing useful in that regard.

Gr7mm Bobb

2017-01-30, 01:29 PM

Another list of changes for the class. Also considering a defender oriented archetype, something for being a magical damage control. Pretty certain that 4e had something like that for is Swordmage class, maybe looking their for things that people liked is a good plan. Issue is that WotC puts more value in features that keep PC's alive longer. IE tinkering with AC, Temp HP, damage absorption, resistance, etc. Resistance is the one thing they seem to hand out like hotcakes, but I digress. Here's is a list of changes I've made. As usual feedback/comments are appreciated:

Limited Arcane Strike(AS) to melee, bonus damage holds for 1 minute or until next hit.
Modified Arcane Channel to still prevent wombo combo’s.
Removed Extra Attack from the base class.
Hexblade has a minor Slow effect with auto attacks.
Hexblade able to channel Hexblade Curse into Aura, has reduced time and penalty die size.
Extra Attack now part of the Magus Archetype.
Arcane archer now only one who can Arcane Strike @ range.
Moved Elemental Arrow to be AA’s 5th level feature to replace Extra Attack, modifies AS and ImprAS.
Added “Precise Critical” trick to the arcane archer.
Removed tunnel fighter from Magus archetype (created feat Patient Tide Style to have similar but limited effects).

Sicarius Victis

2017-01-30, 07:57 PM

Hey, this class is still a thing? Awesome!

Honestly, I agree with removing Extra Attack. This way, their best combat option is Channeling, as it should be. I have a possible alternative to Deadshot's Intuition, for something more powerful but less flexible. The thought is, it gives free proficiency in one of a list of skills (lists could include: Insight, Investigation and Perception; Acrobatics, Athletics, and Stealth; Medicine, Nature, and Survival; and similar things), and when the character attempts a check with one of those they can use a bonus action (or something) to spend 1 Arcane point and get Expertise in that skill for a minute.

How does that sound?

Also, I like the idea of a "defender" subclass. I'd also like to see a subclass focused on spamming teleports in between attacks.

Gr7mm Bobb

2017-01-31, 01:45 PM

Your suggestion for deadshot seems OP and not in the same breath. Yes the AA would access to more skills on demand, but they would also blow through points fighting anything with a stealth bonus. I wanted to offer an option that was in line with the power of the Mind Vault discipline to give them a limited window to do rogue/ranger things. I was hoping the Extra attack thing would work out. I've trying to get more creative with design to avoid my final answer always becoming MOAR damage. As it is, arcanists provide the most on demand versatile problem solving, blasting, and control. So with that in mind I check off blasting from the check list and looked again at what the class would want. It's and arcane paladin/ranger. So it should behave like a pally does when compared to the cleric and what the ranger does when compared to the druid. In turn I want the Duskblade to behave as compared to the Wizard, Warlock, and Sorcerer.

Extra attack was neat, but as previous UA articles have shown, but not entirely necessary. The magus kept it because it fit, the Hexblade instead got something to take away someone else's EA (because he's a party pooper). And the AA was handed the ability to swap between elemental damages with rider abilities. Giving them the choice of getting damage through (force damage) or trying to contribute to the fight in new ways. The Class is to be a chassis for a concept to me, and the archetypes are an extension of a broad vision. Magus = Mage Knight, Hexblade = Debuff Monster, Arcane Archer = Magic Bag bow wielder. Each has a niche that they fit in, my goal is to make this an interesting class to play, when also not making every other class invalid.

Did you ever take a look at the Path of Celerity I brewed for the Monk? It was built off of the scraps from the old Swiftblade archetype that i had in this, that I had hijacked from another playgrounders Magus class. Forgive me please, I don't remember who though, its been years.

Trying to thing of a archetype name for the defensive oriented one (and mechanics that don't poop all over the paladin and his defensive stuff). And the name of a speedy, maybe later teleporting, archetype could easily be the Swiftblade or the Elocator. Maybe jive a bit with the UA mystic mechanics, but friggen psionic weapon + Arcane Strike would get stupid out of hand. Probably just do neat Psi-Magic archetype features and see where that goes.

EDIT: Just looked at the newest UA ranger archetype (horizon walker), its 11th level feature is 10ft teleport with each attack from the Attack Action...

Sicarius Victis

2017-01-31, 10:01 PM

Your suggestion for deadshot seems OP and not in the same breath. Yes the AA would access to more skills on demand, but they would also blow through points fighting anything with a stealth bonus. I wanted to offer an option that was in line with the power of the Mind Vault discipline to give them a limited window to do rogue/ranger things. I was hoping the Extra attack thing would work out. I've trying to get more creative with design to avoid my final answer always becoming MOAR damage. As it is, arcanists provide the most on demand versatile problem solving, blasting, and control. So with that in mind I check off blasting from the check list and looked again at what the class would want. It's and arcane paladin/ranger. So it should behave like a pally does when compared to the cleric and what the ranger does when compared to the druid. In turn I want the Duskblade to behave as compared to the Wizard, Warlock, and Sorcerer.

To be fair, my idea was intended to be less versatile but more powerful than what you had. An Evoker compared to a Universalist, or something. Though I suppose I should have clarified that you can only spend the point for a skill you already have proficiency in...

Extra attack was neat, but as previous UA articles have shown, but not entirely necessary. The magus kept it because it fit, the Hexblade instead got something to take away someone else's EA (because he's a party pooper). And the AA was handed the ability to swap between elemental damages with rider abilities. Giving them the choice of getting damage through (force damage) or trying to contribute to the fight in new ways. The Class is to be a chassis for a concept to me, and the archetypes are an extension of a broad vision. Magus = Mage Knight, Hexblade = Debuff Monster, Arcane Archer = Magic Bag bow wielder. Each has a niche that they fit in, my goal is to make this an interesting class to play, when also not making every other class invalid.

I completely agree.

Did you ever take a look at the Path of Celerity I brewed for the Monk? It was built off of the scraps from the old Swiftblade archetype that i had in this, that I had hijacked from another playgrounders Magus class. Forgive me please, I don't remember who though, its been years.

I saw that, it was quite interesting. Not sure which other class you're thinking of, maybe heavyfuel's Duskblade?

Trying to thing of a archetype name for the defensive oriented one (and mechanics that don't poop all over the paladin and his defensive stuff). And the name of a speedy, maybe later teleporting, archetype could easily be the Swiftblade or the Elocator. Maybe jive a bit with the UA mystic mechanics, but friggen psionic weapon + Arcane Strike would get stupid out of hand. Probably just do neat Psi-Magic archetype features and see where that goes.

Possible names: Vanguard, Armiger, Spellguard...

EDIT: Just looked at the newest UA ranger archetype (horizon walker), its 11th level feature is 10ft teleport with each attack from the Attack Action...

Yeah, I don't think WotC knew where they were going with that subclass.