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Thunder_Ranger
2007-05-05, 09:45 PM
:smallbiggrin: (What can I say, it's now a habit. Quoting Firefly that is.) Anyway... Eberron! What's is the majority opinion? I love it, it's got depth, character, flavor, and it has so much blasted potential! It's the first campaign setting that I've seen that brings the edge of technology and a sense of a modern world, without actually going d20 modern. So, what do the esteemed people of giantitp think?

kpenguin
2007-05-05, 09:48 PM
One of the games I run is Eberron and its... interesting. I think it is one of the most interesting campaign settings for D&D. Its certainly a breath of fresh air from the standard fantasy settings.

lacesmcawesome
2007-05-05, 09:51 PM
I love it. Though uh... it's actually the only setting I've ever played in. Still, I like it. I mean, if you can think of it in DND, it's in eberron, aye?

Thunder_Ranger
2007-05-05, 09:59 PM
Oh, and I should add this little peice: why do you like or dislike it?

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-05, 10:04 PM
I like it. Its a setting where they are at least *trying* to play out magic should affect the world and society.

I'm running 3 different games in it right now. And playing in 2 different games.

Dhavaer
2007-05-05, 11:47 PM
I like it because it manages to be low powered and high powered at the same time. And also because I"m currently playing a +1 Hexblade of Barbarian Bane in an Eberron campaign.

averagejoe
2007-05-06, 12:49 AM
I pretty much had to respond to this, just because of the title. :smallbiggrin:

Eberron? It's a nice place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there, so to speak. From the moment I read about them I thought warforged were pretty cool, and had a lot of potential in many ways. Even so, I don't like the magical heaviness of it. I like magic to be, well, special. Again, it's cool once in awhile, but I wouldn't want to do it often.

kpenguin
2007-05-06, 12:53 AM
Magic is special in Eberron as well. You won't find uber-high level magic in Eberron as often as you would, let's say, in the Realms. You'll find a lot of low-level magic that is used for practical reasons, though. I think that's what Dhaever meant.

Dhavaer
2007-05-06, 01:12 AM
Magic is special in Eberron as well. You won't find uber-high level magic in Eberron as often as you would, let's say, in the Realms. You'll find a lot of low-level magic that is used for practical reasons, though. I think that's what Dhaever meant.

*stab* for misspelling my name.

What I meant by "it manages to be low powered and high powered at the same time" is that it has some considerable opponents for powerful characters (Lords of Dust, the Dreaming Dark, etc) without running into the epic, epic, everywhere problem of Faerun, and that the average person will still likely never see someone beyond fifth level.

kpenguin
2007-05-06, 01:23 AM
That's a good point as well. The NPCs are generally lower level than one would expect in other settings. For instance, the Lord of Blades, probably one of the biggest BBEG in Eberron, is only lvl 16.

Morty
2007-05-06, 03:33 AM
Eberron? It's okay, if someone likes magic used as technology, common and reliable(I don't). And, of course, if someone don't mind about magic trains(what were they smoking?:smallannoyed: ).

Pauwel
2007-05-06, 04:14 AM
I have never played in Eberron or read it for that matter, but what is it about these magic trains that gets everyone so riled up?

Morty
2007-05-06, 04:18 AM
Well, on Eberron you have train. It's like normal, real-world train, but it's powered by air elementals(If I remember correctly) and has magic stones in place of rails. I personally consider magic train too stupid to fathom. I don't mind airships, but this...

Dhavaer
2007-05-06, 04:44 AM
I don't have a problem with the lightning rail. It seems odd that steam power doesn't seem to be available, given the infinite heat sources are fairly easy to make (permanent wall of fire).

Ashes
2007-05-06, 08:22 AM
I love the lightning rail. I love all of Eberron (except for maybe Sarlona, doesn't do anything for me)
The only problem I have with Eberron is the "if it's in D&D, it's in Eberron". Which, according to Player's Guide to Eberron means "All the weird subraces people want to play live in Xendrik". There are no Goliaths, Grey Elves, LA +2 Drow, Arctic Dwarves, w/e in my Eberron, thankyouverymuch

ocato
2007-05-06, 09:55 AM
I've never played D&D in Ebberron (Home brewed worlds are my preference thank you, I've never played in any WotC or other such published world) but I did play D&D Online, which was set in Ebberron, so please take my opinions on it with a grain of salt.

I like an Ebberron feat or two, but the magic as technology and the Warforged are sort of 'ehhhh' to me. Especially the fact that Wizards/Sorcerers are the ones who heal warforged with 'repair' spells? Please tell me that's a product of the MMO and not a D&D thing. Wasting my wand of cure moderate wounds on a guy who takes half-healsies from it was quite frustrating. I'd say what I say about most settings. Borrow what you like and make your own world.

Hzurr
2007-05-06, 12:20 PM
I like an Ebberron feat or two, but the magic as technology and the Warforged are sort of 'ehhhh' to me. Especially the fact that Wizards/Sorcerers are the ones who heal warforged with 'repair' spells? Please tell me that's a product of the MMO and not a D&D thing. Wasting my wand of cure moderate wounds on a guy who takes half-healsies from it was quite frustrating. I'd say what I say about most settings. Borrow what you like and make your own world.


Unfortunately, it isn't MMO specific; that's straight from the Pen & paper game. Although, the actual campaign setting also had artificers, who could pump out wands and potions of repair, so it was a little bit better.

It actually balances things out a bit in the MMO, because warforged are 5 kinds of awesome (and not just because they do the robot for their dance. However, some of the non-standard healing works on them normally (such as the paladin's Lay-on-hands ability)

tsuyoshikentsu
2007-05-06, 01:17 PM
In the RPG, there's a way to get around that, too. Libris Mortis has a feat called Tomb-Tained Soul which, essentially, switches your polarity: negative energy heals, positive energy hurts.

And, amazingly enough, this means that you'll get full healing from negative energy (which is certainly not a [Healing] effect) and half damage from most positive energy spells. (Which are still [Healing] effects!)

ocato
2007-05-06, 05:18 PM
Got em diagonally. Pretty sneaky, Tsuyoshikentsu.

RandomNPC
2007-05-06, 08:49 PM
you could always houserule that since warforged have souls they take full healing. or put repairs on the cleric list.

Belteshazzar
2007-05-06, 09:11 PM
you could always houserule that since warforged have souls they take full healing. or put repairs on the cleric list.
OR one could simply rule that Mending or Make Whole (two lowly core cleric spells that don't get enough love) can heal some damage for warforged. It's probably not RAW but it makes too much sense not to be.

LoopyZebra
2007-05-06, 09:37 PM
Ebberon. I think I left a campaign setting of higher quality in the toilet a few minutes ago.

Seriously. The whole setting is about how to make steampunk, but then give a cheesy explanation as to why it's not steampunk, it's mainstream fantasy (and it pretends it's well-thought out, at that). The magic everywhere tendencies are ridiculous, and the fact that it tries to justify this is, well, stupid. There's still the same amount of inane power as Forgotten Realms, except it's in pseudo-arcane toasters, not, you know, the chosen of the gods. I'll admit, some features of it are nice on certain occasions, but bleh. If I wanted to play a robot, who meets fellow heroes on a train, then goes about fixing the world on an aircraft, I'd go play d20 Modern. If I want to play fantasy, I'll play a fantasy setting. If I go all emo and want to hurt myself, I'll play Ebberon.

((For the purposes of argument, yes, I have looked through the Campaign Setting a bit, read some of the online stuff, and tried DDO.))

Morty
2007-05-07, 02:59 AM
There's one funny thing about Eberron: how they write about "blurred alignments" in Campaign Setting and say that it's campaign specific, special, etc, while my group plays alignment that way in FR. Not to mention those things are really obvious- like not killing everyone because they detect as evil, for example.
Anyway, I rather dislike Eberron. It has few good ideas, but common, reliable magic working as technology makes me sick. Seriously, if I want trains, airships and other modern stuff, I won't play D&D.

Jack Mann
2007-05-07, 03:32 AM
Personally, I've always felt the opposite. The fact that they haven't managed to harness the power of arcane magic for more practical things like commerce is a glaring flaw in settings like Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk. I think that's far more idiotic than magic trains.

Morty
2007-05-07, 03:39 AM
Maybe it's just that in these worlds magic isn't practical and dependable enough to use it in commerce? It may not be represtented in mechanics, but I've always felt it that way. It's the way I think magic should work. So I don't think it's a flaw.
But that is problem with high-magic worlds with common, reliable arcane or divine magic- there will always be question "why didn't they do x using magic?". That's why low-magic worlds are better.

Jack Mann
2007-05-07, 03:46 AM
Unfortunately, the rules and basic mechanical assumptions of D&D don't really support a low magic world. If you really want that feel for magic, you're probably playing with the wrong system.

Dhavaer
2007-05-07, 03:52 AM
But that is problem with high-magic worlds with common, reliable arcane or divine magic- there will always be question "why didn't they do x using magic?".

And in Eberron it has been answered.

And its Eberron, people! One 'b', two 'r's.

Morty
2007-05-07, 04:10 AM
And in Eberron it has been answered.

And its Eberron, people! One 'b', two 'r's.

I has, but in very non-satisfying way, if you ask me.


Unfortunately, the rules and basic mechanical assumptions of D&D don't really support a low magic world. If you really want that feel for magic, you're probably playing with the wrong system.

I realize that, and that's why I'm going to try WFRPG and my hombrewed system.

Serenity
2007-05-07, 07:56 AM
Exceedingly satisfying, if you ask me. I don't understand how people can get so worked up just because a setting decides to invoke Arthur C. Clarke. 'Magic trains' everyone says to disparage it--as if that was all they needed to say. I love 'em.

And while any good DM running a non-hack-n-slash campaign should have house-ruled an alignment system like Eberron's, most mainstream campaign settings are built with pretty bloack and white alignment in mind. Eberron was built for intrigue and shades of grey.

Morty
2007-05-07, 09:07 AM
Exceedingly satisfying, if you ask me. I don't understand how people can get so worked up just because a setting decides to invoke Arthur C. Clarke. 'Magic trains' everyone says to disparage it--as if that was all they needed to say. I love 'em.



Because magic trains, airships, warforged, and all that stuff is exactly how magic shouldn't work.

Truthseeker
2007-05-07, 09:13 AM
It has some interesting elements. Warforged, artificers, keeping things lower-level...

But ultimately it bothers me. D&D at its roots was a toolkit for recreating the sort of antics you see in mythology and classical fantasy. Eberron is what you get when you take a multi-generational toolkit that has some frankly silly and/or broken tools, and say "Y'know, I'm going to build a... a something that uses every tool in this box." You're going to wind up with something really wacky if you use everything. So instead of a way for a one-in-a-billion wizard to make lights, you have a logical treatment... statistics combined with rules say that X people should be able to become at least low-level spellcasters, and surely one of them would get the bright idea to sell their services lighting cities, so let's have cities with Continual Flame streetlights!

My problem more concisely is that I'm not a fan of the rules for their own sake. The answer to the question "Why aren't there Continual Flame streetlights?" is "Because the stat generation system is off and leaves us statistically with too many casters," or "Because everyone who knows how is keeping their wizardly lore and divine niftiness to themselves," or "because the spell shouldn't exist, at least not at that level" or "because that would take too much of a toll on the caster that the rules just don't model," or some combination of all of these and other things besides. Basically, "Because something's broken in the background and poking at it just damages versimilitude, so please don't."

On the other hand, if you've been at this for longer than I have and are sick of the stereotypical stuff, then I'm quite certain Eberron makes a lot of sense. It's fresh, and it's a logical treatment on what the world should look like... by the rules.

Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick
2007-05-07, 09:17 AM
Eberron makes me rather angry sometimes- but it's mostly because they retroactively/from the future/etc. stole some of my ideas.

Eberron is at least an attempt to make magic have a place in society/culture etc.; while I don't necessarily agree with the result in all respects, I like the attempt.

It's an ideal cherry-picker's setting; there's a lot worth stealing and adapting in there. I may not necessarily play in the Eberron setting, but I use the setting book, oh yes.

Lastly...while I don't want this to sound like a ringing endorsement (it isn't: there are definitely things I don't like about the way some of my 'favorite' aspects were handled) I do play Eberron games from time to time, and enjoy them. Because I get an airship. Mmmm, airship.

Caveat: my real advice/opinion is this- steal from Eberron, but play in Iron Kingdoms.

Ulzgoroth
2007-05-07, 09:17 AM
Because magic trains, airships, warforged, and all that stuff is exactly how magic shouldn't work.
But why not? Magic users have always been making powerful magic items, and no core spell I know of can substitute for airships and magic trains. Bulk transport is immensely important in any sort of economy. It's something that a reasonably smart wizard would immediately see the point of, if they thought of it in the first place.

Warforged I'm not too sure I understand. Surely if you can manage to build a Warforged factory, you could get enhanced grunts some other way...

Indon
2007-05-07, 09:44 AM
The very concept of Wizards and reliable magic lends itself to the concept of magic-as-technology, so I don't understand how Eberron doesn't make sense in a D&D environment.

The setting itself is pretty cool. I don't have extensive experience with it, though.

Morty
2007-05-07, 11:04 AM
But why not? Magic users have always been making powerful magic items, and no core spell I know of can substitute for airships and magic trains. Bulk transport is immensely important in any sort of economy. It's something that a reasonably smart wizard would immediately see the point of, if they thought of it in the first place.

Warforged I'm not too sure I understand. Surely if you can manage to build a Warforged factory, you could get enhanced grunts some other way...

Well, I don't like the very idea of any magic items. They're the biggest disadvantage of D&D. Reliable, easy magic that you can use when you need it is wrong in my eyes. Especially if you use it to make common mean of transport.

Were-Sandwich
2007-05-07, 01:09 PM
Because magic trains, airships, warforged, and all that stuff is exactly how magic shouldn't work.


Well, I don't like the very idea of any magic items. They're the biggest disadvantage of D&D. Reliable, easy magic that you can use when you need it is wrong in my eyes. Especially if you use it to make common mean of transport.

Those are some nice opinions you have there.

Beleriphon
2007-05-07, 01:53 PM
Well, I don't like the very idea of any magic items. They're the biggest disadvantage of D&D. Reliable, easy magic that you can use when you need it is wrong in my eyes. Especially if you use it to make common mean of transport.

Except those things are true in virtually all D&D settings. A wizard can always cast the spells that he can knows. So it only makes sense that he sells those spells for profit, if he has any sense.

Warforged are also a fascinating idea, and actually support your opinion. While House Cannith could produce warforged at the drop of a hat, they didn't really know how they were doing so. It was more along the lines of "push this button and warforged come out". Besides, half the fun with warforged is that they are desparately seeking a racial identity, and any number of friend people are willing to help them out. Like the Lord of Blades, the fun folks in Thrane, or King Kaius of Karrnath.

Indon
2007-05-07, 02:03 PM
Those are some nice opinions you have there.

And what we can glean from them is that Eberron is the logical extension of an environment with reliable magic, and if you don't like reliable magic then Eberron is definitely not your thing.

Were-Sandwich
2007-05-07, 02:13 PM
Eberron Rocks. That is all.

LoopyZebra
2007-05-07, 07:46 PM
Let's take the example of the Continual Flame lightposts, shall we:

Eberron is built upon the idea that it is logical that magic-users would sell their services to build common, everyday items. Presumably, none of Eberron is Communist, and these wizards sell their services for market price, seeing as the whole setting revolves around these free-market wizards.

According to the SRD, the market price for a casting of Continual Flame is 60gp . Looking outside my window, I see that there are 4 lightposts every city block. There are 8 houses with 3-5 people each on this block, for an average value of 32 people, or around one lamppost per 8.

There are some questions we need answered before we continue: Exactly how many wizards have been recruited into this lamp-lighting? How big is this city? How many lamps are equitable to modern day lampposts? I'm going to use some rather default values.

Assuming that there is 1/11th chance of a person being a wizard (A bit high, really, but I got the number from there being 11 core classes), in a city of 50,000 people, there are 4545 (and part of an extra person) wizards. Let's go ahead and assume they're all third level. Unrealistic, yes, buit so is having a 1/11th of your population be wizards, and Eberron likes low levels, doesn't it?

Assuming that we need one lamppost for every 8 people, we need 6250 lampposts. Assuming we have every wizard stop his efforts for the next 2 days, they can make the lampposts. But why would every wizard wake up one day and decide to make lampposts? This also assumes that every single one of them knows Continual Flame. How many of you bothered to add Continual Flame to your spellbook? But we'll leave that alone, for now.

60gp x 6,250 lampposts= 375,000 gp for the lampposts construction. There's also the problem of getting a whole bunch of wizards to stop their wizardish research and make lampposts. Now, the cost of enough scrolls for the wizards to scribe the spell into their spellbooks is: 200gp x 4,545 wizards= 909,000. But many of them might let you copy them out of their books, so we'll use 454,500 gp, instead, the cost of scribing them out of another book.

So, we have start-up costs of 454,500 gp to train enough wizards (granted it could be considerably lower), then a cost of 375,000 to pay for the lampposts. This also doesn't factor in cost for the lampposts. Iron is one-pound for 1 sp. Assuming these lampposts are pretty light, say 10 pounds each, that's 6250 gp for the iron right there, not counting labor costs to melt the iron, movement costs to and from the foudnries to the wizard's place to the construciton site, and construction costs to place it in the ground.

So, we have at least 454,500+375,000+6,250+associated labor costs= 835,750 gold pieces MINIMUM to light a city of 50,000 people.

Where exactly is this money coming from? The taxable income of your average person is 1 sp a day. Skilled artisans may make 1 gp a day. That 36.5 gold a year and 365 gold a year respectively. Assuming we have mostly "average people", at 40% tax rate, (close to an American tax rate), that's 14.6 gold a year, or 730,000gp total intake. For this city to make enough money in taxes to pay for the lampposts: the city would have to use every bit of taxes to pay for the next 1.14 years to pay for it, assuming that there's no additional spending by the government.

So, our city of 50,000 people, assuming it stops all government spending, assuming no riots break into the treasury, assuming the city isn't looted, assuming that there aren't any royal spending sprees, can put lamplights everywhere in a little more than a year.

But this makes grandiose assumptions on the favor of the Eberronites. It also assumes that the government comes to a complete standstill. In the US, approx. 76 billion is spent on the Department of Transportation. I'm not sure where to get the figures to account for local and state infrastructure, nor do I know which US Department involves itself with lamplighting, but these lamps are on roads, so you'll have to bear with me. There's 2.4 trillion dollars coming into the US government. 76 billion dollars is a very, very small portion of that. In fact, it's .031%. .031% of 730,000 is 22630. Given that figure for transportation spending, assuming all of it is going towards lamplighting, the city of 50,000 can buy off it's lamps in 37 years.

But, again, this assumes no inflation, no unemployment, no royal overexpenditures, no overthrows of the government, no wars (which, I hear, is quite common with all those robots/Warforged running around), no plagues, no other transportation costs, no crime, no maintenance on the lampposts, and quite a bit more. It also doesn't take into account, that, with a setting with relatively Victorian technology, a population center of 50,000 isn't all that big. I'll admit, I took one or two liberties that sided on my side of the argument, but many more times did I take a position which sided with the Eberronites.

Now, that's just for our magical lampposts, in one city. That doesn't include the costs for all the other magic junk lying about, like trains, cranes, and airships, which, if I felt like stating them out, would probably cost enough gold to require hundreds of years of a stable government.

So, in summary, it is unfeasible to make Eberron all magicified, economically, which is the setting's whole justification. Instead of taking grandiose amounts of power and putting it into the hands of wizened sages,
voluptuous sorceresses, and whatever else you want to call out from Faerun, it puts it in lampposts.

Lampposts.

This also ignores the general silliness of the setting, but it's primary justification for it's silliness, has, well, just been disproven.

estradling
2007-05-08, 09:58 AM
LoopyZebra... I think you forgot to factor in one thing into your numbers...

Time... You've compressed all into the shortest span possible...

Have you ever seen a city built all at once? I bet you have not, because the same issues of cost show up in real life construction.

Cities are build over years if not decades. "Magic" Streetlamps don't burn out they don't wear out... As long as they are not stolen or dispelled they last forever...

This makes it quite possible for the very first one to still be in service hundreds of years later. So lets say the city can afford 100 a year... It would take them 62.5 years to make enough for the city as it currently is. That sounds like a lot of time, but it also takes time for the city to grow that big.

Once you factor in time your conclusion falls apart

SpiderBrigade
2007-05-08, 10:36 AM
Also consider that Eberron is full of plot-driven "creation forges" and "schemas," which presumably lower the cost of creating these day-to-day magic items significantly.

For instance Magic of Eberron introduces the minor schema (minor, mind you) which lets you cast a given spell 1/day. A 2d-level spell like Continual Flame would cost 2,400 GP in schema form. Taking estradlin's ideas about time flexibility into consideration, this reduces the costs drastically.

Or, you know, use the item creation guidelines. Command-word item of Continual Flame? 10,800 GP. Then you hire a peasant to sit there using it on lamposts for 8 hours a day. Better yet, hire 3 peasants and have them work in shifts. You can have your 6,250 lamposts in...oh, less than a day actually. At a cost of about 2 GP each, plus whatever you're paying the peasant.

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-08, 10:44 AM
Or you just Planar Bind a Lantern Archon who can make 144,000 Continual Flame Lanterns in a day for free.

SpiderBrigade
2007-05-08, 10:51 AM
Well yeah but that's getting cheesy :smallbiggrin:

Plus check your math, I'm pretty sure it's only 14,400 a day, not 144,000. Which is the same as you can get with your 3-shift peasant structure.

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-08, 10:54 AM
True. But it is the cheapest way to do it. And is rules legal whereas the item requires the DM allowing it.

SpiderBrigade
2007-05-08, 11:01 AM
Dude, it's a campaign setting. I think DM approval is basically a given :smalltongue:

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-08, 11:03 AM
Yeah.

I have done this in Greyhawk though (before Eberron was ever even announced). I sold them to the rich part of town at a hundred GP each.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-05-08, 11:14 AM
Without getting into the various arguments here, I have to ask...

I love the title and all, but what if anything does it have to do with the actual topic posed in the first post? Hmm...is asking about the title's relevance to the topic off-topic?

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-08, 11:16 AM
Check the first post. The poster has apparently gotten good results when he makes a thread with a title that is a quote from Firefly. So now all his threads start with titles that are quotes from Firefly.

Wolf_Shade
2007-05-08, 11:16 AM
The very concept of Wizards and reliable magic lends itself to the concept of magic-as-technology, so I don't understand how Eberron doesn't make sense in a D&D environment.
I have no opinion of Eberron. The only place I saw it was in a ten day trial of DDO, which I strongly disliked.

However, the assumption in Eberron, it seems, is that wizards are businessmen. They don't see magic as a powerful and painstaking process that should be respsected. Instead it's the same as being good at pounding boards, or digging ditches, and should be used to make a profit and better the world.

There in lies the difference (that I can see) betwee Eberron and "High Fantasy" settings. Eberron wizards are businessmen good at magic. Other wizards are individuals who have spent their lives pooring over the arcane and attempting to learn the secrets of the universe so they may bend them to their will. They feel that such bending is not to be taken lightly and should only be done with a modicum of respect for the laws they are about to tear assunder.

To put it another way, the wizards of other realms are Jedi who feel you should only use the Force when neccesary, and not as a play thing. Where as Eberron wizards are droid manufacturers.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-05-08, 11:34 AM
Check the first post. The poster has apparently gotten good results when he makes a thread with a title that is a quote from Firefly. So now all his threads start with titles that are quotes from Firefly.
Still, I can't help but think there might have been a quote that was less of a non sequitur.

Anyway, let me just throw in my support of Eberron. If you love the high fantasy archetype and all the traditional trappings of the genre (and I do, in some games), play somewhere else. Forgotten Realms was made for that. If, however, you want something closer to a turn of the century pulp novel, Eberron's for you. It's also built, from the ground up, on the assumption that magic exists. That's why we have the Corollary to Clarke's Third Law effect with all the magical "technology"; it's integrated into the world instead of slapped onto 13th Century Europe like it is in a lot of fantasy. It also changes or challenges a lot of common notions in D&D that I personally questioned myself: that Evil is evil for evil's sake, that the species of a sentient creature is more important than nationality or even individual attitude, and that gods physically exist as they did in ancient mythologies. It's different. I like different.

SpiderBrigade
2007-05-08, 11:41 AM
Check the first post. The poster hasY apparently gotten good results when he makes a thread with a title that is a quote from Firefly. So now all his threads start with titles that are quotes from Firefly.Yeah, I'm definitely with Nerd-o-rama on this one. Call me a pedant, but I just like the idea of thread titles having something to do with what's in the thread...

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-08, 11:44 AM
Yeah, I'm definitely with Nerd-o-rama on this one. Call me a pedant, but I just like the idea of thread titles having something to do with what's in the thread...
Oh I feel the same. I was just saying why the title was like that.

Merlin the Tuna
2007-05-08, 11:56 AM
Eberron wizards are businessmen good at magic. Other wizards are individuals who have spent their lives pooring over the arcane and attempting to learn the secrets of the universe so they may bend them to their will.Consider that the other wizards need to make money in order to fund their research in order to continue trying to learn the secrets of the universe. Where does the money come from? You're left with two outlets -- using vast arcane power to explode goblins, or using arcane power to open a business that's vastly more efficient than a non-magical competitor could be. One involves putting one's self in danger, the other much less so. And do you really want to have to account for hundreds of wizards 'porting around the world, exploding things to make a quick buck? Bleh.

And Zebra missed a few more things in his "conclusive proof," including but not limited to Clerics, Archivists, city zoning (is anyone in a rush to get lights installed in the slums of the world?), and standard economic procedure (hey there, bulk discounts!). Still, it pretty much all pales in comparison to making at-will (or even /day) items of Continual Flame or binding a Lantern Archon.

Wolf_Shade
2007-05-08, 12:04 PM
Where does the money come from?
Tuition. Aren't wizard universities or what have you expensive? Sort of like modern universities. Some of it goes to actual salaries, the rest goes to various forms of research (sort of). Then you have wizards in the employ of kings etc.

I'm not saying Eberron has it backwards somehow. I'm simply saying that the impression I've always gotten from other fantasy settings is that magic is somehow more respectable than to be used for menial labor or a quick penny.
The assumption that Eberron is simply the logical conclusion of a world with magic misses the aspect of respect for that magic.

estradling
2007-05-08, 12:13 PM
The assumption that Eberron is simply the logical conclusion of a world with magic misses the aspect of respect for that magic.


That it does... Or at least you have to look deeper to find it... Which in turns makes it more like it would be in real life. In the real world we do have some people working out things purely for the joy of figuring out something new... However those people's research is funded by those who hope to gain more practical use from these 'new thoughts and ideas' Even government or public school are set up with the understanding benefits will be gained by having more trained people around

LoopyZebra
2007-05-08, 03:52 PM
Hmm... I really hadn't considered a lot of that. I retract my math's "definitiveness". My bad. :smallredface:

Anyways, the setting still feels odd to me. Gimmicky, even.

Talya
2007-05-08, 06:54 PM
I despise Eberron. I hate the warforged race, I dislike the artificer class. I hate invisible gods that don't show themselves to the world, I would prefer the world to be fleshed out with high level "iconic" NPCs.

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-08, 07:21 PM
I despise Eberron. I hate the warforged race, I dislike the artificer class. I hate invisible gods that don't show themselves to the world, I would prefer the world to be fleshed out with high level "iconic" NPCs.
So you want Faerun? :biggrin:

LoopyZebra
2007-05-08, 07:23 PM
So you want Faerun? :biggrin:

That's a silly question. It's obvious that everybody wants Faerun. :smallsmile:

Talya
2007-05-08, 07:25 PM
So you want Faerun? :biggrin:


Faerun is my favorite setting, yes.

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-08, 07:28 PM
That's a silly question. It's obvious that everybody wants Faerun. :smallsmile:
I take lots of stuff from it but I don't like it that much. Greyhawk, Eberron, and custom settings are all I really play in.

Belteshazzar
2007-05-08, 07:39 PM
I'm not saying Eberron has it backwards somehow. I'm simply saying that the impression I've always gotten from other fantasy settings is that magic is somehow more respectable than to be used for menial labor or a quick penny.
The assumption that Eberron is simply the logical conclusion of a world with magic misses the aspect of respect for that magic.

Magic can still be respected or dangerous it's just the respect is different. I respect a man with a gun just as much as a character would the guy with a wand of magic missile but the specialness of magic (the low level stuff anyway) is somewhat missing. I mean people only a few hundred years ago would consider our light bulbs to be high magic but to us that newness has worn off on us. We consider something even higher to be 'the great mystery', such as space travel or nanotechnology. A common man from Ebberon could still believe in mysterious powers or legendary magic (this is even more likely with the lack of such epic characters as Elminster or Manshoon) but his awe threshold would be much higher than an everburning lantern or a magic missile wand, he may be more impressed however by a rod of wonder, wall of force, or a ring of lightning because unlike the faerun commoner he knows exactly how much more powerful they are than a simply light spell.

Dhavaer
2007-05-08, 07:43 PM
That's a silly question. It's obvious that everybody wants Faerun. :smallsmile:

Bleh. Far, far too much detail. I like Eberron just having a few cities detailed in each nation. There is some good stuff in FR, though. The Magelord PrC, for example, is one of my favourites.

Serenity
2007-05-08, 09:25 PM
Personally, I have never played a campaign that made any use of active gods, nor is it at all high on my priority list. It's not a dealbreaker by any means, and I won't refuse just because there are avatars running around. But I basically don't like the idea of divine intervention, and distant gods make for more moral ambiguity, which is great.

Annarrkkii
2007-05-08, 09:26 PM
Because magic trains, airships, warforged, and all that stuff is exactly how magic shouldn't work.


...wait, what?

Wizards have high intelligence. Well, good ones do. The whole IQ = Int. x 10 rule of thumb means the standard, elite-array wizard has an IQ of about 150. Take a stab at the bell curve, and you want to knock that back a few notches to maybe 130, but that's still 30% smarter than the average human. Now, a few exceptional gnomish wizards, deep in the bowels of the Korrenberg Library, exploiting Fox's Cunning every once in a while, should have something in the vicinity, if temporarily, of 20 Int. An IQ around 180-200. That's INCREDIBLY smart. Typical estimates don't put Einstein or Newton that high. Some wackos put Da Vinci in the 200+ range, but that's simply ridiculous. He was smart, but he didn't have twice the normal human learning capacity.

Now. Given that, there is no reason, that with 30-odd splatbooks of spells at their disposal, that these geniuses couldn't easily come up with exactly what is outlined in Eberron, and a lot more. Permanent sources of fire and lightning are easily affordable—a magewright whose job is everburning torch manufacture can make a fortune with ease, casting free spells on sticks of wood and selling them as limitless light. Given a year, a posse of spellcasters could produce enough light to keep Sharn illuminated FOR EVER. With that problem solved, and the world aglow and with a lantern surplus after a few years, there are plenty of other projects these guys could put to use. A few thousand taxpayers' gp could be put to use in binding extended contracts out of low-HD elementals—water elementals to power ships, air elementals to power gliders—even without the elemental-binding mechanic outlined in Eberron.

Wands of message or sending could easily replace telephones without the message stones. Animate Objects could produce immensely powerful transportation systems, that a reasonably leveled artificer could keep running for days at a time off a single staff. An animated mine cart of titanic proportions would be easy to craft and easier to animate.

Mindlinking Kalashtar could form relay chains, and the potential for power produced through the something-from-nothing marvels of Fireball and Lightning Bolt are ridiculous. Animated corpses or homununculi, lacking constitution scores, can run for eternity, providing limitless manpower to turn hamster wheels, run factories, or simply patrol streets as sweepers. The marvels of a city in which undead were embraced as useful manifestations of the ancestors, though with less religious intensity than the Aernalians hold, would be nearly limitless. Inexhaustible, mindless servants are UNREALLY useful to the economy. A handful of low-level clerics could run vast plantations.

The low-tech settings of most D+D games are, while enjoyable, unrealistic, in that a mid-level mage can produce feats of scientific wonder and usefulness that far surpass our most outstanding achievements to date. Space travel itself would be amusingly easy in the D+D world, and constructs and undead would easily be in orbit and colonizing the moons or what have you.

Indon
2007-05-08, 09:38 PM
Where as Eberron wizards are droid manufacturers.

Literally.

"Your army of Warforged will soon be ready for combat."

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-08, 09:43 PM
I am making a setting right now (which will be play tested on these boards this summer) in which magic is taken to that extent Annarrkkii.

Magic is literally technology in that world.

Talya
2007-05-08, 09:49 PM
Bleh. Far, far too much detail.

See, that's something I like. Half the world is fleshed out in detail. There's still plenty of frontier (other continents, + kara tur hasn't been touched in a decade), but you generally know what to expect. It's hell on a DM who doesn't know the world though...

Alex Knight
2007-05-08, 11:34 PM
Personally, I prefer the Birthright setting, which is almost the polar opposite of Eberron. Nothing against the Warforged and the rest, I just prefer Cerillia and the Gorgon, the Elf, and the Spider. :smallbiggrin:

Beleriphon
2007-05-09, 02:13 AM
See, that's something I like. Half the world is fleshed out in detail. There's still plenty of frontier (other continents, + kara tur hasn't been touched in a decade), but you generally know what to expect. It's hell on a DM who doesn't know the world though...

Or particularly feel like following the metaplot. This is something that I particularly like about Eberron. The world will never progress officially past the point where it is right now.

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-09, 07:20 AM
Or particularly feel like following the metaplot. This is something that I particularly like about Eberron. The world will never progress officially past the point where it is right now.
It won't? Thats nice to know.

Talya
2007-05-09, 07:47 AM
There's another thing...a static world feels less alive than one that changes without the players or DM changing it.

As for eberron not changing, there are already official eberron novels out there. If it grows in popularity, more and more iconic characters will develop, more and more plot changes will affect the world as a whole, as stories epic enough to sell paperbacks are wont to do. Eventually, if it survives, eberron will start to feel fleshed out enough for me, I suspect. That won't change some of the world elements that I don't care for, but on the other hand, Eberron has airships. You've gotta love airships.

Serenity
2007-05-09, 08:12 AM
I say its up to the DM to make the world feel alive. Having WotC declare changes does nothing for versimikitude as far as I'm concerned. It's just an excuse for them to release another book that we have to buy.

Morty
2007-05-10, 07:54 AM
...wait, what?

Wizards have high intelligence. Well, good ones do. The whole IQ = Int. x 10 rule of thumb means the standard, elite-array wizard has an IQ of about 150. Take a stab at the bell curve, and you want to knock that back a few notches to maybe 130, but that's still 30% smarter than the average human. Now, a few exceptional gnomish wizards, deep in the bowels of the Korrenberg Library, exploiting Fox's Cunning every once in a while, should have something in the vicinity, if temporarily, of 20 Int. An IQ around 180-200. That's INCREDIBLY smart. Typical estimates don't put Einstein or Newton that high. Some wackos put Da Vinci in the 200+ range, but that's simply ridiculous. He was smart, but he didn't have twice the normal human learning capacity.[snip]



Wow, you totally missed my point. What I meant wasn't the matter of numbers, or probability that someone will invent it. It was the matter of my opinion of how magic should be like. And I consider reliable magic replacing technology highly distasteful. Besides, you can't say that anything about magic is 'unrealistic'. It's unrealistic by default.
The one thing I like about Eberron are 'invisible gods'. I like Forgotten Realms, but I really prefer when gods don't interfere with mortals on daily basis. It's a shame that it has so much junk in it, really. That setting's got potential.

Serenity
2007-05-10, 08:06 AM
And his point is that any system in which you can use magic has, by definition, reliable magic. And if reliable magic exists, it only makes sense that it would be used as technology. If you want unreliable magic, you'd have to apply a chance of casting failure to every single spell the wizard casts, which would pretty much stop people playing wizards.

Morty
2007-05-10, 08:21 AM
That doesn't stop people playing wizards in Warhammer. Besides, by 'unreliable' I mean rather "can't be used to mundane, daily tasks", and "you can't rely on magic to do stuff for you". Considering that magic can do thing nothing else can, it's fair deal anyway,

ZekeArgo
2007-05-10, 08:47 AM
Ahh, so prestidigitation, light, open/close, knock, message, whispering wind, etc... are all unable to be used in mundane ways? That these super-geinuses wouldn't have figured out ways to use their *least* powerful abilities to turn a hefty profit? I think not.

Morty
2007-05-10, 08:56 AM
I didn't say that non-eberronian D&D doesn't allow using magic for mundane purposes. It's just Eberron drags that to much bigger extent. And I don't like it.

ZekeArgo
2007-05-10, 09:04 AM
I didn't say that non-eberronian D&D doesn't allow using magic for mundane purposes. It's just Eberron drags that to much bigger extent. And I don't like it.

But thats the thing. When you have these extremely simple and useful spells in a world teeming with magic, and more importantly mages, then why does it make sense that they *wouldnt* make use of this power to make life easier for themselves, and turn a tidy profit?

Just because its "tradition" for commoners to be covered in mud and have no idea what magic is, dispite the fact that blink dogs and owlbears and whatnot live in the woods around their village, does not mean that it actually makes sense.

estradling
2007-05-10, 09:15 AM
But thats the thing. When you have these extremely simple and useful spells in a world teeming with magic, and more importantly mages, then why does it make sense that they *wouldnt* make use of this power to make life easier for themselves, and turn a tidy profit?

Just because its "tradition" for commoners to be covered in mud and have no idea what magic is, dispite the fact that blink dogs and owlbears and whatnot live in the woods around their village, does not mean that it actually makes sense.

When you are dealing with peoples preferences they don't have to make sense... Someone not liking the color yellow might not make a whole lot of sense but it is still their preference.

As for magic it is not that hard to understand why people prefer it to be 'magical' instead of 'technological' However the moment you put rules to how magic works (which you need to do in a game) it starts heading in the direction of technology. You can either ignore that like they do in most settings or you can embrace it like they do in Eberron

Morty
2007-05-10, 09:30 AM
But thats the thing. When you have these extremely simple and useful spells in a world teeming with magic, and more importantly mages, then why does it make sense that they *wouldnt* make use of this power to make life easier for themselves, and turn a tidy profit?

Just because its "tradition" for commoners to be covered in mud and have no idea what magic is, dispite the fact that blink dogs and owlbears and whatnot live in the woods around their village, does not mean that it actually makes sense.

Seriously, it's magic, not science. There are countless non-mechanical ways you can explain magic can't be used to mundane ways achievable by commoners(I'm not speaking about spell-casters here) if you don't want it. Besides- I don't care how much sense it makes. Magic used as technology is something that drives me off. Governments employing mages to send messages- that's fairly ok. As said above, magic items are the biggest disadvantage of D&D.

Talya
2007-05-10, 09:38 AM
Technomagic is fine, I just prefer a more "high fantasy" feel.

Everything about this is subjective personal preference. You can't really argue "right or wrong."

ZekeArgo
2007-05-10, 09:59 AM
Seriously, it's magic, not science. There are countless non-mechanical ways you can explain magic can't be used to mundane ways achievable by commoners(I'm not speaking about spell-casters here) if you don't want it. Besides- I don't care how much sense it makes. Magic used as technology is something that drives me off. Governments employing mages to send messages- that's fairly ok. As said above, magic items are the biggest disadvantage of D&D.

Countless non-mechanical ways sure, if your in a system other than DnD. But in DnD thats how magic *works*. If your arguing that magic should be this way and thats why I don't play DnD, because its magic system is completly reliable and accessable to anyone who knows a bit about it then I've got no problem. But to say that the system in place doesn't support forming a society based around using this free, easily usable and highly efficient source of power... I just don't see how you can find that objectionable.

Indon
2007-05-10, 10:04 AM
I didn't say that non-eberronian D&D doesn't allow using magic for mundane purposes. It's just Eberron drags that to much bigger extent. And I don't like it.

D&D's approach to magic is essentially to treat it like technology. It's a reliable, versatile, expensive commodity that requires a trained operator and a specialist to construct.

Eberron takes this approach further.

If you dislike Eberron magic on the basis that it is not magical enough, then I would rather recommend Mage: The Ascension (That's 1'st ed World of Darkness, I can't speak for the second ed), or perhaps another system in which magic is less reliable and generally more glamorous.

Morty
2007-05-10, 10:09 AM
Countless non-mechanical ways sure, if your in a system other than DnD. But in DnD thats how magic *works*. If your arguing that magic should be this way and thats why I don't play DnD, because its magic system is completly reliable and accessable to anyone who knows a bit about it then I've got no problem. But to say that the system in place doesn't support forming a society based around using this free, easily usable and highly efficient source of power... I just don't see how you can find that objectionable.

Yes, D&D supports that. But just because the system supports that, it doesn't mean that it has to exist if I don't like it. And it's not exactly how magic in D&D works. Sure, magic is relatively easy, but it doesn't mean there has to be magic-using work class.
And why those non-mechanical ways don't apply to D&D? I can simply say that too much use of magic in one place can result in dangerous anomalies- the danger isn't big enough to stop magic-users from their work, but will cause grave consequences if someone tries to utilize magic on Eberron-like scale.


D&D's approach to magic is essentially to treat it like technology. It's a reliable, versatile, expensive commodity that requires a trained operator and a specialist to construct.

Eberron takes this approach further.

If you dislike Eberron magic on the basis that it is not magical enough, then I would rather recommend Mage: The Ascension (That's 1'st ed World of Darkness, I can't speak for the second ed), or perhaps another system in which magic is less reliable and generally more glamorous.

I'm familiar with Mage: the Ascenion. I quite like magic system there, but I really prefer D&D scientifical look on magic- except it should be dangerous, unpredictable science.
And I really wouldn't say that D&D approach is to treat magic like technology. It's one way to present it, but not the only- take FR for example.

Wolf_Shade
2007-05-10, 12:09 PM
But thats the thing. When you have these extremely simple and useful spells in a world teeming with magic, and more importantly mages, then why does it make sense that they *wouldnt* make use of this power to make life easier for themselves, and turn a tidy profit?

The assumption that Eberron is simply the logical conclusion of a world with magic misses the aspect of respect for that magic.
I'll tack on a "by its users".

Again, just coming from my personal view on magic in general terms. It makes sense that they wouldn't make use of this power for a few reasons.
1) Having the power is usually viewed as rare and special. Granted with the number of PC wizards it may not seem that way, but in most novels and other formats I've read magic isn't the norm, and it certainly isn't easy to master. It requires large amounts of training, time, and will power.
2) Wizards are pompous. The lighting of a city would be "beneath their abilities". As for apprentices, they should be studying, not wasting their time with simple little spells for the masses.
3) Magic isn't gas. It doesn't just sit there until someone decides to light a match of create a spark. While not sentient, it isn't dormant either. And somehow, it gets uppity if it feels it's being misused. It's neutral on the good-evil scale, but it has a tendancy to not like being brought under someone's heel for mundane tasks.
4)Wizards recognize #3 (or they suddenly cease to exist, and occasionaly cease to ever have existed) and thus treat magic with a level of respect for its use.

Basically, Eberron doesn't make sense in my mind, because magic becomes just a tool, a thing. It's no different from flipping a light switch. Wizards don't give a rip about what they're doing, there's no risk of overuse of magic creating tears in the fabric of reality. It's just sort of there and available for whoever wants to make a quick buck. It's cheap.

Now, if that's how someone wants to portray magic in their universe, that's fine. But simply saying because a universe has magic it should be treated the way Eberron treats it misses a very important aspect of magic within other realms. Respect for the power by the wielders of it, not just the observers of it.

Merlin the Tuna
2007-05-10, 03:09 PM
1) Having the power is usually viewed as rare and special. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. There are certainly settings in which magic is something which inspires awe and wonder, but D&D doesn't model those well. At all. Do you really expect the average commoner to shriek in surprise when a Dancing Lights spell pops up? Entire cities of gnomes can do that.

This is very similar to some of the complaints that popped up when the Magic Item Compendium came out. The best response I have to it is more or less this: magic may be a bit special, but it's not so special that every piece of it must be enshrined. When I rifle through some new loot and find a Helm of Underwater action, I will not crap my pants solely because it is magical. If I have no intention of going underwater, I will sell it, because I've seen magic before, and more importantly, I've seen more relevant magic before.
2) Wizards are pompous. The lighting of a city would be "beneath their abilities". As for apprentices, they should be studying, not wasting their time with simple little spells for the masses.Many wizards are pompous. Many are down to earth. Ultimately, one of the down to earth ones will say "Hey, there's a market for this." And he will get filthy, filthy rich. And then the pompous ones will say "I'm better than him. I should be richer than him." They may then reach out to the high-society rather than to Joe Dirtfarmer, but the claim that there exist neither enterprising nor altruistic wizards of note anywhere is dubious at best. Just one guy can get the ball moving. After that you'll have regular people looking to that one person for help, and people who appreciate what he's done for society become more likely to follow in his footsteps, researching magic to help the masses.
3) Magic isn't gas. It doesn't just sit there until someone decides to light a match of create a spark. While not sentient, it isn't dormant either. And somehow, it gets uppity if it feels it's being misused. It's neutral on the good-evil scale, but it has a tendancy to not like being brought under someone's heel for mundane tasks.Magic doesn't handle mundane tasks? Magic fetches books (Mage Hand), opens doors (Open/Close), labels things (Arcane Mark), sews (Mending), turns on lights (Light), performs random dickery (Prestidigitation), works as air conditioning (Endure Elements), does puppet shows (Ventriloquism), puts on your makeup (Disguise Self), works as a compass (Know Direction), or most of the above (Unseen Servant). That list took two minutes to make.

In short, I disagree with your conclusion, and would seem that wizards do as well, which covers number 4.

Ulzgoroth
2007-05-10, 03:28 PM
Basically, Eberron doesn't make sense in my mind, because magic becomes just a tool, a thing. It's no different from flipping a light switch. Wizards don't give a rip about what they're doing, there's no risk of overuse of magic creating tears in the fabric of reality. It's just sort of there and available for whoever wants to make a quick buck. It's cheap.

Now, if that's how someone wants to portray magic in their universe, that's fine. But simply saying because a universe has magic it should be treated the way Eberron treats it misses a very important aspect of magic within other realms. Respect for the power by the wielders of it, not just the observers of it.
Merlin covered a lot, but I have to comment on this. The D&D game mechanics don't support the risks and costs you want magic to have. A wizard, once trained, can prepare their complement of spells given a good night's sleep and one hour of concentration. Every day, with no added cost whatsoever. Then they can cast them all, with no consequences beyond the intended effects of the spells. And no matter how demeaning your use of those spells, the magic has no way to get back at you. You should respect magic, of course, if you want to live...but only in the same sense that you should respect power tools, dynamite, or a nuclear pile.

If you want magic to bring eldritch pollution, unpredictable hazards, willful spells, and useage costs, find or build rules that make that true. In D&D standard, no matter how many 9th level spells have been cast at a particular spot there's no residue left besides a barely-detectable aura. And that fades to nothing in at most an hour.

Dhavaer
2007-05-10, 03:30 PM
I really prefer D&D scientifical look on magic- except it should be dangerous, unpredictable science.

So... not like science, then.

PaladinBoy
2007-05-10, 04:19 PM
Eberron?

House Lyrandar. Airships.

It's awesome! :smallbiggrin:

More seriously, though: I find it fascinating that no one has yet brought up the magewright NPC class. Those would be the people I see doing a lot of the minor magics that every city seems to have. And they certainly wouldn't be arrogant enough to say that the minor magics are beneath them, because they make their livelihood with minor spells and maintaining the magic already in place. I would say that true wizards are still relatively rare in Eberron; they're the ones that do magical research and develop new spells. A lot of them are probably affilated with the Five Nations or the dragonmarked houses. And artificers, of course, develop new ways to use magic as technology.

Laesin
2007-05-10, 10:23 PM
Wizards have high intelligence. Well, good ones do. The whole IQ = Int. x 10 rule of thumb means the standard, elite-array wizard has an IQ of about 150. Take a stab at the bell curve, and you want to knock that back a few notches to maybe 130, but that's still 30% smarter than the average human.

I agree with the rest of this post but take a moment to step back and look at this point. Forget the elite array look at the average npc rolled up characters. 3d6 per stat. This rather closely models the bell curve which is a statistical analysis of how far from the norms things can be expected to stray. 15 Int equating to 150 I.Q. seems reasonable. Tests I have taken place me at between 140 and 160 and I would not dream of equating myself with the truely exceptional people of our history such as Einstein or Hawking.

Morty
2007-05-11, 07:52 AM
So... not like science, then.

Well, not entirely like science. Magic in my mind, should be like it's in D&D, with addition of being unpredictable and dangerous. And, of course, magic should be mysterious and not entirely understandable, which is not exactly supported- but possible- by D&D rules and totally non-existant in Eberron.


Merlin covered a lot, but I have to comment on this. The D&D game mechanics don't support the risks and costs you want magic to have. A wizard, once trained, can prepare their complement of spells given a good night's sleep and one hour of concentration. Every day, with no added cost whatsoever. Then they can cast them all, with no consequences beyond the intended effects of the spells. And no matter how demeaning your use of those spells, the magic has no way to get back at you. You should respect magic, of course, if you want to live...but only in the same sense that you should respect power tools, dynamite, or a nuclear pile.

You know, you could say that magic creates anomalies or pollution if used on a big scale- so it doesn't stop single spellcaster from casting spells, but if someone wants to, say, use magic to light all city, it'd end up in disaster.

Wolf_Shade
2007-05-11, 07:52 AM
In short, I disagree with your conclusion, and would seem that wizards do as well, which covers number 4.
Fair enough. Seems I have a misunderstanding of the view of magic in D&D.

Sabattus
2007-05-11, 08:31 AM
Wizards don't give a rip about what they're doing, there's no risk of overuse of magic creating tears in the fabric of reality. It's just sort of there and available for whoever wants to make a quick buck. It's cheap.

Mind you, that could make for an intriguingly Lovecraftian take on Eberron -- all the industrialized use of magic has disturbed things which Should Not Be Awakened, suddenly making magery much more risky and uncertain. The more powerful the spell that is used, or the more spells that are used in a particular area...

... *idly contemplates campaign possibilities*

Matthew
2007-05-27, 05:14 PM
Merlin covered a lot, but I have to comment on this. The D&D game mechanics don't support the risks and costs you want magic to have.

Actually, the default rules don't support it, but D&D is perfectly capable of doing so. It's plug and play!

Folie
2007-05-27, 05:48 PM
I just want to point out to the "Eberron magic isn't numinous* enough" people that this is mainly true of arcane magic. Divine magic, however, is something much more special -- as Keith Baker himself** put it,
you can't just show up, toss a few thousand gold pieces at [the most powerful cleric in the setting], and expect her to raise your buddy, any more than you could expect the Pope to perform your wedding (especially if you are, say, a Zoroastrian). Raising people from the dead is a major divine miracle, and not something as simple as buying a nice suit of platemail.

In terms of arcane magic, of course, he operated from the principle that "If magic is a force that could be quantified and controlled -- as arcane magic can be -- it will eventually be used for communication, transportation, and warfare."

So, in conclusion:
Eberron arcane magic = less numinous than standard magic.
Eberron divine magic = more numinous than standard magic.

Just feel that that should be clear. Pedant Girl strikes again!
__________________________________________________

*Check your dictionary.
**Source: Check out http://www.coveworld.net/eberron/world.html (Accessed 5/27/07) for these and other comments about the world of Eberron.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-05-27, 06:09 PM
I despise Eberron. I hate the warforged race, I dislike the artificer class. I hate invisible gods that don't show themselves to the world, I would prefer the world to be fleshed out with high level "iconic" NPCs.
You mean the "Elminster Problem?" There are great, high-level NPCs in Eberron: Kaius, Vol, the high agents of the Dreaming Dark, but Eberron isn't about a few high-level people doing everything; part of the great interest of the world is that everything is so fragile and big, people have great nations full of people to tend to, and Diety-Level earthshaking problems can't just be solved by one sufficiently epic-level wizard.
Also, my campaign starts at 1st level, and we're never getting past 12-15. Having Epic wizards on every corner just makes them feel meaningless.

Also, "Invisible Gods" creates a much more interesting set-up of religion, which allows for complex nations like Thrane with really interesting political dynamics that would otherwise just be "everyone's Lawful Good or they lose their powers." Also, by not having a rigid morality with gods personally breathing down everyones neck, you don't have to have everything being defined by the tick on the Alignment box.

I love Eberron, it's the best setting Wizards has ever released in any capacity. The history of it, the aesthetics, they carefully carved out political climate, the looser and more useful alignment system, the millions of very usable plots and intrigues already built into the system are just spectacular.

We've had a million "high fantasies" with heavily apostrophed Elfen Kingdomes and great legends of powerful artifacts of legends of times of old in forests, but we only have one Fantasy-Noir. Hail to the King!