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ewoods
2015-08-11, 02:11 AM
Edit: Revised version in first comment.

I've been working with one of my players to try to come up with a class that is centered around poisons and poison use. This is my first homebrew class so I'd appreciate any and all feedback. I have a list of ideas and concepts that I want the class to have for abilities, but I'm having trouble arranging them in a level order that makes sense. Assuming the abilities are reasonable, I could use some help assigning them to appropriate levels.

Starting with the basics:

Alignment: All but the most depraved societies regard the use of poison as illegal, and morally questionable at best. Poisoners cannot be lawful or good.
Hit Die: d8
Starting Wealth: 3d6 x 10 gp (average 105 gp). In addition, each character begins play with an outfit worth 10 gp or less.
Class Skills: Acrobatics, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Disguise, Escape Artist, Handle Animal, Heal, Knowledge (Local), Knowledge (Nature), Linguistics, Perception, Perform, Profession, Sense Motive, Slight of Hand, Stealth, Swim, Survival.
Skill Ranks: 6 + Int modifier
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Poisoners are proficient with the crossbow (hand or light), dagger (any type), dart, rapier, shortbow (normal and composite), and short sword. Poisoners are proficient with light armor but not with shields.

The concept for the poisoner is that of a debuffer, almost like a caster who is devoted to reducing an opponent's stats. I imagine him at upper levels using poisons to reduce an opponent's spell resistance so that the wizard can more easily land a spell. I want him to be able to hit when others can't so that he can reduce an opponent's dexterity to help the melee classes. To that end, I gave the class the BAB progression of a fighter and an ability called Studied Poisoner that was modeled after the Assassin's Death Attack.

Studied Poisoner: Beginning at 6th level, a poisoner may study his victim for one or more rounds prior to attempting to poison him to gain a bonus to his poison attempt. Studying the victim is a standard action. The victim must remain within sight while being studied or no bonus is received. If the victim recognizes the poisoner as an enemy, no bonus is received. The victim can be studied for a number of rounds up to the poisoner’s level, but at least one full round must be devoted to study to gain any bonus. When at least one round has passed, the poisoner gains a bonus equal to the number of rounds he spent studying to either a single attack roll or to a slight of hand check to apply a poison to the victim’s food or drink without being noticed. This attack or slight of hand check must be made within three rounds or the bonus is lost.

The class's core abilities are called Venom Attack and Potent Poison. The idea

Venom Attack: This ability is like the rogue’s sneak attack, except that it only functions when a poison is applied to the poisoner’s weapon. It follows the same level progression as the rogue's sneak attack and rules for flat-footed opponents.

Potent Poison: Prior to making a venom attack against an opponent, a poisoner may choose to reduce the number of venom attack dice he applies to his damage for the round to gain a bonus to the save DC of his poison. If he does so, he may increase the DC of whatever poison is applied to his weapon by the number of venom attack dice he reduced. For example, a poisoner with 3d6 venom attack damage may reduce all of his venom attacks for the round to 1d6 in order to increase the DC of his poison by +2 for the round. This ability only functions when wearing light or no armor, and only when using a weapon with which he is proficient.

From there I have a couple of things to help reduce the cost of poisons.

Poison Scavenging: A poisoner may use a Survival check (or Knowledge (Nature)?) to extract poisons from plants. For every five points above a DC 10, he extracts one dose of poison from the roots, leaves, flowers, fruits, berries, and other parts of nearby plants. A check of less than 10 results in no poison being found. This ability does not function when there are no plants available. The poisoner may carry a plant with him for this purpose, but each plant may provide no more than three total doses of poison before it no longer functions for this ability.

Poison Extraction: A poisoner may use a Handle Animal check to extract venom from animals, insects, and fish. For every five points above a DC 10, he extracts one dose of poison from nearby animals, such as snakes, spiders, scorpions, and toads. A check of less than 10 results in no poison being extracted and the poisoner himself being poisoned (this has no effect on a poisoner who is immune to poison). This ability does not function when there are no animals or insects available. The poisoner may carry an animal or insect with him for this purpose. The animal or insect will provide up to five doses of poison per day for as long as it is kept alive.

And a couple of things to speed up poison application.

Quick Application: A poisoner may apply poison to a weapon as a move action, rather than a standard action. Retrieving a vial of poison is still a move action. This ability only functions for weapons with which he is proficient.

Swift Application: A poisoner may apply poison to a weapon as a swift action, rather than a move action. Retrieving a vial of poison is still a move action. This ability only functions for weapons with which he is proficient.

Instant Application: A poisoner may apply poison to a weapon as an immediate action, rather than a swift action. A poisoner may now also retrieve a vial of poison as a swift action, rather than a move action. This ability only functions for weapons with which he is proficient.

So I'm thinking it will look something like this, but I also want the class to have evasion at some lower level and full poison immunity at some higher level. I also have an ability in mind where the poisoner could apply a contact poison to his skin without poisoning himself, and then apply that poison to someone as a touch attack, but I'm not sure where that would go either. I feel like there needs to be a big level 20 ability as well. What do you think? Anything that you would take away? Anything that you feel like it's missing? Is it overpowered or perhaps not strong enough?



Level
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Special


1st
+1
+0
+2
+0
Venom attack +1d6, poison use, potent poisons


2nd
+2
+0
+3
+0
Poison scavenging


3rd
+3
+1
+3
+1
Venom attack +2d6


4th
+4
+1
+4
+1
Poison extraction, evasion


5th
+5
+1
+4
+1
Venom attack +3d6


6th
+6/+1
+2
+5
+2
Studied poisoner


7th
+7/+2
+2
+5
+2
Venom attack +4d6


8th
+8/+3
+2
+6
+2
Quick application


9th
+9/+4
+3
+6
+3
Venom attack +5d6


10th
+10/+5
+3
+7
+3
Poison touch


11th
+11/+6/+1
+3
+7
+3
Venom attack +6d6


12th
+12/+7/+2
+4
+8
+4
Swift application


13th
+13/+8/+3
+4
+8
+4
Venom attack +7d6


14th
+14/+9/+4
+4
+9
+4
Poison


15th
+15/+10/+5
+5
+9
+5
Venom attack +8d6


16th
+16/+11/+6/+1
+5
+10
+5
Instant application


17th
+17/+12/+7/+2
+5
+10
+5
Venom attack +9d6


18th
+18/+13/+8/+3
+6
+11
+6



19th
+19/+14/+9/+4
+6
+11
+6
Venom attack +10d6


20th
+20/+15/+10/+5
+6
+12
+6

ewoods
2015-08-11, 01:00 PM
Alright, I've spent some more time on this and here's a revised version. There's aspects of it that I feel are WAY overpowered, but I tried my best to balance it with the abilities of other classes. Basically my goal is just a poison-focused class with higher poison DC's and much lower costs for using poisons.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YXlx-oTeSgue7OHU7CvOmylBqSaqtv8tyYDXmhW92Wg/edit?usp=sharing

Jormengand
2015-08-11, 01:36 PM
Role: The poisoner is not one to seek out combat. He can be deadly in a pinch, but he prefers to let a few drops of poison do the fighting for him, slipping quietly into the shadows while his dangerous concoctions work to shut down the minds and bodies of his opponents. Many die without ever knowing he was there, and perhaps worse, many more find themselves crippled, confused, and helpless but very much alive in his presence.

Then why does he get a slightly odd sneak attack, d8 hit die and full BAB?


Alignment: All but the most depraved societies regard the use of poison as illegal, and morally questionable at best. Poisoners cannot be lawful or good.

I'd make it any nonlawful. Poisoning someone can easily be a good act. (There are also Ravages, which are basically holy poisons, so there's that).


[Low fortitude]

You work with poisons and you have low fortitude?


Venom Attack: This is exactly like the rogue’s sneak attack ability, except that it only functions when a poison is applied to the poisoner’s weapon. It follows the same level progression as the rogue's sneak attack.

Strictly worse SA is strictly worse, which might not be a bad thing.


Poison Use: The poisoner cannot accidentally poison himself when applying poison to a weapon with which he is proficient.

You'd think someone who devotes his whole life to poisoning people might be able to put some poison on a longsword without poisoning himself.


Potent Poison: Beginning at 1st level, prior to making a venom attack against an opponent, a poisoner may choose to reduce the number of venom attack dice he applies to his damage for the round. If he does so, he may increase the DC of whatever poison is applied to his weapon by the number of venom attack dice he reduced. For example, a poisoner with 3d6 venom attack damage may reduce all of his venom attacks for the round to 1d6 in order to increase the DC of his poisons by +2. This ability only functions when wearing light or no armor, and only when using a weapon with which he is proficient.

Ooh, neat.


Poison Scavenging: At 2nd level, a poisoner may use a Survival check to extract poisons from plants. This check takes one hour. For every five points above a DC 10, he extracts one dose of poison from the roots, leaves, flowers, fruits, berries, and other parts of nearby plants. The scavenged poison has a save DC of 12 and can deal 1d2 points of damage to any one ability score of the poisoner’s choosing. The poisoner must choose which ability score the poison affects at the time of the check. Each dose can affect a different ability. At 7th level, the save DC increases to 14, and the damage increases to 1d3.

A check of less than 10 results in no poison being found. This ability does not function when there are no plants available. The poisoner may carry plant components with him for this purpose, but each one may provide no more than three total doses of poison before it no longer functions for this ability.

This ability...

Right, first off, if you read it, it only provides poison for every 5 ABOVE a DC of 10. So the check's actually DC 15. Second, surely some kind of craft would make more sense? Third, the ability simply stops scaling after level 7 because... why? Fourth, because plant components have no listed value or weight, he can just take as many as he likes with him, and anyway, how big does it have to be to be a component?


Poison Extraction: At 4th level, a poisoner may use a Handle Animal check to extract venom from animals, insects, and other poisonous creatures. This check takes ten minutes. For every five points above a DC 10, he extracts one dose of poison from nearby animals, such as snakes, spiders, scorpions, and toads. The extracted poison has a save DC of 14 and can deal 1d3 points of damage to any one ability score. Alternatively, the extracted poison can instead cause either paralysis or unconsciousness for 1d3 rounds. The poisoner must choose which type of poison to extract at the time of the check. Each dose can be different. At 9th level, the save DC increases to 16, and the damage increases to 1d4 points of ability damage, or 1d4 rounds of either paralysis or unconsciousness.
A check of less than 10 results in no poison being extracted and the poisoner himself being poisoned (this has no effect on a poisoner who is immune to poison). This ability does not function when there are no animals available. The poisoner may carry an animal or insect with him for this purpose. The animal or insect will provide up to five doses of poison per day for as long as it is kept alive.

Everything I just said, plus, why does it make no difference what kind of poison the animal normally produces? You always get to choose what kind of poison to extract.


Studied poisoner: Beginning at 6th level, a poisoner may study his victim for one or more rounds prior to attempting to poison him to gain a bonus to his poison attempt. Studying the victim is a standard action. The victim must remain within sight while being studied or no bonus is received. If the victim recognizes the poisoner as an enemy, no bonus is received. The victim can be studied for a number of rounds up to the poisoner’s level, but at least one full round must be devoted to study to gain any bonus. When at least one round has passed, the poisoner gains a bonus equal to the number of rounds he spent studying to either a single attack roll or to a slight of hand check to apply a poison to the victim’s food or drink without being noticed. This attack or slight of hand check must be made within three rounds or the bonus is lost.

Okay, neat.


Quick Application: At 8th level, a poisoner may apply poison to a weapon as a move action, rather than a standard action. Retrieving a poison is still a move action that provokes an attack of opportunity. This ability only functions for weapons with which he is proficient.

Should probably happen earlier. That said, the idea of someone applying and using poison in the same round is funny.


Poison Immunity: At 10th level, a poisoner has slowly built up his poison resistance. He becomes completely immune to all poison.

Antidote: At 10th level, a poisoner may neutralize poison in another person (as per the spell) with a DC 15 Heal check.

Swift Application: At 12th level, a poisoner may apply poison to a weapon as a swift action, rather than a move action. Retrieving a poison is still a move action, but no longer provokes an attack of opportunity. This ability only functions for weapons with which he is proficient.

All fine.


Poison Glands: At 14th level, the poisoner has come into contact with so much poison that he develops poison glands in his mouth. This poison has a save DC of 16 and can deal 1d4 points of damage to one ability score, cause paralysis or unconsciousness for 1d6 rounds, or reduce an opponent’s spell resistance or damage reduction by 1d8. He gains a bite attack (1d4) and does not provoke an attack of opportunity when using it. A successful bite delivers one dose of poison. He also gains the ability to spit his venom with a range of 10 feet. This spit attack deals no damage but acts as a contact poison. The poisoner may now also use his Poison Extraction ability on himself.

See, this kinda doesn't mesh with my idea of the poisoner. To me, poisoner and poisonous don't really work well as the same person.


Instant Application: At 16th level, a poisoner may apply poison to a weapon as an immediate action. Retrieving a poison becomes a swift action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. This ability only functions for weapons with which he is proficient.

I question what the benefit is of getting to apply poison when it's not your turn, though I guess it might be useful for an AoO?


Vicious Poison: At 18th level, the poisoner’s vast experience makes his poisons almost impossible to resist. He adds his Wisdom modifier to the save DC of any poison he uses.

Just as well that none of your other abilities are wisdom-based apart from a survival check, then.


Poison Touch: At 20th level, the poisoner’s body has been exposed to poisons for so long that he becomes poisonous to the touch. He may deliver any poison from his Poison Glands ability as a touch attack. In addition, any opponent who grapples the poisoner must save against his poisons each round they remain in contact with him. The poisoner may suppress or activate this ability at will.

Again, I feel that would be a cool ability for a poison-based monster, but not a poison-based class.

ewoods
2015-08-11, 04:19 PM
Edit: Updated based on feedback.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/19I9t59sI816VrbJ4bpqwiwXQFLqtnVdRGHnRHzhsEmI/edit?usp=sharing

Thanks for the feedback! The BAB thing is a remnant from my first draft that I just forgot to change... I'm going to change it to the rogue's BAB progression, d6 hit die, and I'll add Fort as a high save. Also changing the Poison Use ability to any weapon. Restricting it to just the weapons he is proficient with seemed a little more balanced to me, but I guess it's not that much different. I just didn't want him going around applying poison to all of the weapons in the party.

So obviously Poison Extraction and Poison Scavenging need work. :) The idea here was simply that the class could find and/or make its own poisons. I considered a craft check of some kind, but the class would still need components from which to craft the poison. I thought I'd just simplify it by saying, basically, "If you can find the components, it's assumed you can make poison." I also stopped scaling the abilities after 9th level because I assumed the poisoner would just rely on his Poison Gland ability, but I think you're right that those end abilities don't really seem to fit. I was just lost for some higher level abilities so "becoming poisonous" is what I came up with. The part about getting to pick which poison he can extract was just to simply things from a DM perspective. I didn't want to have to go through a ton of creatures and assign each one a different poison, so I thought this would be easier. How about this instead. I make Potent Poison a second level ability, and add a first level ability called Poison Craft to replace the scavenging, extraction, and poison gland abilities, and that continues to scale.

Poison Craft: Beginning at 1st level, a poisoner can craft his own poisons from plants, animals, insects, and other materials. He may carry with him a component pouch which is assumed to have all of the necessary materials to prepare a number of doses of poison per day equal to half his poisoner level plus his wisdom modifier. Preparing these poisons takes one hour. Once crafted, the poison must be used within 24 hours or it loses its potency and becomes harmless. The poisons have a save DC of 12 and deal 1d2 points of damage to any one ability score of the poisoner's choosing. The poisoner must choose which ability score the poison affects at the time of the check. Each dose can affect a different ability. At 5th level, the save DC increases to 14 and the damage increases to 1d3. The poisoner also gains the ability to craft a new poison that causes paralysis or unconsciousness for 1d3 rounds. At 10th level, the save DC increases to 16 and the damage of his ability poisons and duration of his paralysis poisons increase to 1d4. The poisoner also gains the ability to craft a new poison that reduces an opponent's damage reduction by 1d6. At 15th level, the save DC increases to 18 and the effectiveness of his damage reduction poisons increases to 1d8. The poisoner also gains the ability to craft a new poison that reduces an opponent's spell resistance by 1d6. At 20th level, the save DC increases to 20 and the effectiveness of his spell resistance poisons increases to 1d8.

The wording of that seems a little clunky, but hopefully the basic idea is still good. The poisoner is assumed to be collecting components throughout the day. Each day he can prepare a few poisons from those components, almost like spells. As he gets better at it, the poisons increase in effectiveness.