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YPU
2007-05-06, 07:21 AM
Iím pretty sure I have read this question before in some places, but cant remember the answer. so well what is it: do ToB maneuvers and stances qualify for feat and or prestige-class requirements?

ImperiousLeader
2007-05-06, 08:31 AM
I'm guessing that you're asking that, for example, if a character had a manuever or stance that grants them sneak attack, could they take feats or prestige classes that requires sneak attack?

The rules are unclear on this one. It's like asking, if I had a spell or magic item that grants me evasion, can I take feats/prestige classes that require evasion?

YPU
2007-05-06, 08:40 AM
yup thats what i'm asking. i did find a ask wizards topic about the same thing with incarnum and stuf. that one said that you would only gain the advantages of the feat or class as long as you have that meld. so i supose it wouldnt work for maneuvers, since you cant have a maneaver 'turned on' but it works for stances, you gain the class abileties as long as you are in that stance.

Jothki
2007-05-06, 11:17 AM
yup thats what i'm asking. i did find a ask wizards topic about the same thing with incarnum and stuf. that one said that you would only gain the advantages of the feat or class as long as you have that meld. so i supose it wouldnt work for maneuvers, since you cant have a maneaver 'turned on' but it works for stances, you gain the class abileties as long as you are in that stance.

Rogues can't have sneak attack 'turned on' either, though. If the qualifier is that you actually be able to sneak attack at any moment, if you have a manuever that you can use at any time that seems like the same thing. Would you lose the benefit of the feat after you used the manuver, though?

Fax Celestis
2007-05-06, 12:13 PM
It's not terribly unbalancing to let it qualify, especially since what you'd be qualifying for doesn't progress your maneuvers.

Catch
2007-05-06, 12:42 PM
Iím pretty sure I have read this question before in some places, but cant remember the answer. so well what is it: do ToB maneuvers and stances qualify for feat and or prestige-class requirements?

No, for the same reason why spell-granted effects don't qualify. Just because you're polymorphed into a dragon, it doesn't mean you can take a dragon prestige class.

Tellah
2007-05-06, 01:04 PM
No, for the same reason why spell-granted effects don't qualify. Just because you're polymorphed into a dragon, it doesn't mean you can take a dragon prestige class.

With the exception of the Warshaper (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/prestige2.pl?Warshaper) prestige class.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-05-06, 01:11 PM
No, for the same reason why spell-granted effects don't qualify. Just because you're polymorphed into a dragon, it doesn't mean you can take a dragon prestige class.

But you can. You just lose the benifits when you're not shapechanged into a dragon. If you're using a rule that says polymorph doesn't change type then you can't though.

Otherwise a werewolf couldn't take improved natural attack because it doesn't always have natural weapons. Also if you're hybrid form gets an ability score bonus you can take feats that require ability scores you only have in hybrid form.

Catch
2007-05-06, 01:48 PM
But you can. You just lose the benifits when you're not shapechanged into a dragon. If you're using a rule that says polymorph doesn't change type then you can't though.

No, this is completely wrong. By your logic, I could take a rogue, max out her UMD, then cast Divine Power from a scroll and claim that I meet the BAB requirements for a class that I otherwise would not qualify for. Or I could have a Wizard buddy cast Enlarge Person on a Barbarian so he can qualify for a class with a size requirement.

See how that doesn't make sense?



Otherwise a werewolf couldn't take improved natural attack because it doesn't always have natural weapons. Also if you're hybrid form gets an ability score bonus you can take feats that require ability scores you only have in hybrid form.

A hybrid form is gained through a template, not a spell. Since it's a permanent class feature, you can take feats based on the traits of your alternate form.

Pax_Chi
2007-05-06, 05:11 PM
I think its a little different in this case because a Stance ability is something you can theoretically have on all the time. There's litterally nothing to stop you from spending more time in a stance than a were-creature could in its alternate form.

I could see a case being made for Stance granted abilities, though not technique granted abilities, for fullfilling pre-reqs for Prestige Classes.

Counterspin
2007-05-07, 02:01 PM
I would second the idea that an ability granted by a stance should work as a prerequisite because a stance can be on continuously. This is my opinion of course, by RAW you're probably out of luck.

Olethros
2007-05-07, 02:12 PM
No, this is completely wrong. By your logic, I could take a rogue, max out her UMD, then cast Divine Power from a scroll and claim that I meet the BAB requirements for a class that I otherwise would not qualify for. Or I could have a Wizard buddy cast Enlarge Person on a Barbarian so he can qualify for a class with a size requirement.



It all depends on if we are talking about a draconic feat that has the pre-req of being a dragon, or a feat only usable by a dragon. If for example, I take a feat that improves my tail-slap attack, as a wizard, it would only do me good when I had a tail. As long as the pre-reque for the feat doesn't include having a tail-slap attack I can take it. I believe there is a feat "Large-and-in-charge" or something, that can prevent smaller opponents from closing with you. Its not greatly usefull to a player of a med creature, but it would come into play when "large sized" given I can't remember its pre-reques but ya get my point.

I am letting a player of a ranger use her fgithing style to qualify for pre-reques, with the understanding that if she ever wears to heavy armour to loose the use of the fighting style, she also looses everything built off of that pre-reque, including class levels from prestige classes.

Dausuul
2007-05-07, 03:59 PM
No, this is completely wrong. By your logic, I could take a rogue, max out her UMD, then cast Divine Power from a scroll and claim that I meet the BAB requirements for a class that I otherwise would not qualify for. Or I could have a Wizard buddy cast Enlarge Person on a Barbarian so he can qualify for a class with a size requirement.

See how that doesn't make sense?

Actually, those are both perfectly legal. Of course, as soon as the divine power wears off the rogue, she loses all the benefits of her new class level. That includes hit points, BAB, saving throws, class abilities, even skill ranks. The only way she can get them back is to get another scroll and cast divine power again... which is quickly going to become an expensive proposition.

Likewise, the barbarian only gets the benefits of his new class while he's enlarged. He's totally dependent on his wizard buddy to buff him before combat.

Besides, how would you like to play a character who could have several class levels completely stripped away with one casting of dispel magic?

SpiderBrigade
2007-05-07, 07:09 PM
Good points there Dausuul, but I don' think you lose the HD, only the class abilities. Much like an ex-paladin.

Seatbelt
2007-05-07, 07:13 PM
I have a player who considered multiclassing into the War Hulk, which requires you to be large. He was going to use a permanancied belt of enlarge person to qualify. It's legal (and there are instances of WotC using it. Look at Yoda's stat block. I forget which feat he doesnt qualify for, but he has a feat he used an ability buff to meet the prereqs for). I was going to allow it, and then just dispel/sunder it at random.

IonizedChicken
2007-05-08, 06:17 AM
Iím pretty sure I have read this question before in some places, but cant remember the answer. so well what is it: do ToB maneuvers and stances qualify for feat and or prestige-class requirements?

Any effect that grants you an ability allows you to fulfill prerequisites with it. If you lose the effect, however, any abilities that depend on the prerequisite (I am unsure if this works with HD, saves, and Base Attack Bonus. I would rule it doesn't but that's just me) are also lost.

So, yes, they do, but for how long? Well, it depends on the wording.
Say a prestige class required the "sneak attack ability". Since you only have this ability while in Assassin's Stance, that is the only time in which you fulfill the prerequisite.

Of course, there are some ways to get around these RAW restrictions if one puts his mind to doing so.

Seatbelt, I have to say I disagree with that style of DMing. It would suck to lose a whole bunch of class levels. Sure, the concept itself reeks of Munchkin than a circus but I don't think that's the way to deal with it. I would have just disallowed the concept out of hand, whether it is RAW or not.

Seatbelt
2007-05-08, 07:54 AM
I told him the risks. He's aware that there is a risk of his special item being destroyed, and he's also taking precautions. *shrug* His enemies are highly intelligent and use divination and scrying spells. Why wouldnt they want to exploit an obvious weakness?