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View Full Version : Seemingly stupid question, yet, important- RE: Bullrush



Knight_Of_Twilight
2007-05-06, 01:57 PM
My player, who happens to be a good friend, tends not to agree with me as a DM. Our latest arguement is about bullrushing.

He wants to bullrush people into the ground with a spiked chain after he's tripped them. He also wants to be able to bullrush flying people downwards, all because he does extra damage for them hitting something when he moves them.

I told him thats stupid, and he says that there is nothing in the rules that says he can't- Is he right on that?

Yvian
2007-05-06, 02:24 PM
Can you give us more details? What exactly are the feats he is using, order of attack, etc.

Can you bull rush a flying creature? If you are flying, yes. If not? ....

Can you bull rush a person lying on the ground? Yes. However, think about what he is trying to do. He charages a creature, lying on the ground, attempting to move them? Is that right? You get bonous on a bull rush if you are execptional stable - and lying on the ground is about as stable as you are going to get. I would give a large circumstance bonous to the creature - let us +10.

PhoeKun
2007-05-06, 02:26 PM
Well... the first one is just plain dumb. You can't bull rush someone with a weapon at all, let alone during a trip. I would love to see the argument for why that should be allowed...

As far as bull rushing people in the sky is concerned, there's nothing in the rules that would prevent it. That said, given that you only push people 5 feet plus 5 feet per extra 5 points you beat the opposed roll, the odds of being able to bull rush an airborne opponent into the ground for... pretty crappy damage... aren't exactly in his favor. Can he even get up there to bull rush them?

The_Snark
2007-05-06, 02:33 PM
Bull rushing is a standard action on its own, and you have to be able to move into their square to do it. Bull rushing a flying person might be possible, but you'd have to be above them. Bull rushing along with some other sort of attack (trip) is impossible.

And since he has to move into their square to do it, he can't do it at reach, so he provokes attacks of opportunity unless he has the right feats.

puppyavenger
2007-05-06, 02:39 PM
I told him thats stupid, and he says that there is nothing in the rules that says he can't- Is he right on that?

The rules also don't say doing the I'm a little teacup dance doesen't give you enough xp to become level 20

Knight_Of_Twilight
2007-05-06, 06:01 PM
Well... the first one is just plain dumb. You can't bull rush someone with a weapon at all, let alone during a trip. I would love to see the argument for why that should be allowed...

Oh trust me. Said arguement went on for at least an hour. It wasn't so much an arguement as me pointing things out with him yelling out that its "IN THE RULES" when it clearly is not. My other players don't help- mainly giggle and egg him on.

True, but he'd argue that if it was in character, he'd get bonus xp for it.

Man, I feel like such an idiot. As a player, I skipped over bull-rush.

I trusted him to read all the rules. Shows what I know.

PhoeKun
2007-05-06, 06:35 PM
From the sounds of things, the only thing you can really do with him is stick to your guns and just not allow the silly things he's trying to get away with. I doubt this thread will be much help to you in that respect, but at least you've reaffirmed that you're mostly in the right (except for the flying bit, but... so what?)

Actually, you might want to try pointing out to him that he'll do more damage if he just attacks his opponents rather than trying to bull rush them. It might shut him up. It might not, but at least its a different approach than arguing with what appears to be a rock.

As a side note, there is an edit button underneath your posts. Please use that when you're trying to add more information - double posting is frowned upon here.

ZeroNumerous
2007-05-06, 06:51 PM
Bonus XP is the DM's peragotive. And no, you can't bullrush someone into the ground. Why? Because bullrushing someone must put you in their square. You can't end the round in their square without taking an AoO every round you stand there.

Knight_Of_Twilight
2007-05-06, 06:55 PM
From the sounds of things, the only thing you can really do with him is stick to your guns and just not allow the silly things he's trying to get away with. I doubt this thread will be much help to you in that respect, but at least you've reaffirmed that you're mostly in the right (except for the flying bit, but... so what?)

Actually, you might want to try pointing out to him that he'll do more damage if he just attacks his opponents rather than trying to bull rush them. It might shut him up. It might not, but at least its a different approach than arguing with what appears to be a rock.

As a side note, there is an edit button underneath your posts. Please use that when you're trying to add more information - double posting is frowned upon here.

Heh, I usually edit- I was a bit flustered when I posted those.

To prove my competence, I'll condense them into a single post.

PinkysBrain
2007-05-06, 07:30 PM
Well... the first one is just plain dumb. You can't bull rush someone with a weapon at all, let alone during a trip. I would love to see the argument for why that should be allowed...
Knockback feat from RoS, Brutal Surge special ability from MIC ... yeah, it can be done.

As for the OP, can you get the extra damage from bullrush when someone is with his back against the wall? If so then yes, I would probably allow him to get the damage when standing over someone he tripped. As for bullrushing a flyer, perfectly legal.

Yvian
2007-05-06, 07:34 PM
Knockback, rampaging bullrush, brutal surge ... yeah, it can be done.

Yeah, but this brings me back to my orgional question - Why would you want to do it? There could be a valid reason. I need to get the opposing wizards as far away from his minons as possible. I need to break up the current formation, etc. Not exactly what I would call a bullrush, but....

But the fallen foe has to have some pretty high bonous to being knocked back.

PinkysBrain
2007-05-06, 07:40 PM
I edited my post BTW ;)

He wants to do it because he is using the fighter variant from dungeonscape which gets very nice damage bonuses when bullrushing people into things.

PhoeKun
2007-05-06, 07:48 PM
...This goes to show you that every time you make a statement based upon the Core rules, somebody will be able to bring out an obscure feat or two to prove you wrong. And by you, I mean me.

Apparently, PinkysBrain is tuned into the specifics of this situation, because I certainly can't see where all this is written.

Yvian
2007-05-06, 08:23 PM
First, a cultural referance:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html

Now, how is this being done.

First, be large. At least a +1 LA.

Next, exotic weapn feat, spiked chain.

Next, Power Attack, Improved Bull rush, Knock Back. 3 feats.

Next, Combat Expertise and Improved trip. This lets you get a free attack after you trip them. Strictly, not needed, but it would be nice for this build. 2 feats.

Not having dungeonscape, I won’t comment about the variant fighter. However, if it is a variant fighter, I am will to bet that they don’t get full fighter bonus feats. We are talking about a minimum of 4 feats, with 6 as the optimal build. For a few extra points of damage? Eh. Does not sound like it is worth it.

That being said, Knight of Twilight, I might have to go with your player on this one. One, in theory, could bull rush a fallen creature with a weapon. But it would have to be built right.

PhoeKun
2007-05-06, 08:31 PM
I can think of two feats that allow a bull rush with a weapon, one of which was pointed out to be just a few moments ago (because Races of Stone is one of the books I don't have memorized, I tend to miss things that use it).

However, neither Knockback nor Driving Attack will let you bull rush someone as you trip them, or during the same round as a trip, which is my understanding of the rules argument. There hasn't even been an indication that the player in question even has any of those feats (although such information might be very useful)...

PinkysBrain
2007-05-06, 08:37 PM
Improved trip will get you a normal attack after the trip though, I assumed that attack was the one he was bullrushing with ... given that he uses a spiked chain improved trip seems likely.

PhoeKun
2007-05-06, 08:43 PM
Hm.

I should never get into a rules discussion in the middle of studying for finals.

edit: I would be very surprised, however, to find out that Knight of Twilight's player is using this theoretical build. I concede the hypothetical, but maintain my stance on the practical.

AtomicKitKat
2007-05-07, 12:28 AM
I edited my post BTW ;)

He wants to do it because he is using the fighter variant from dungeonscape which gets very nice damage bonuses when bullrushing people into things.

Ahh. Dungeon-crasher. Saw that one on the CO boards last fortnight or so.

daggaz
2007-05-08, 06:51 AM
Flying bullrush? Yes, but you need to be flying. Can you then bullrush them into the ground? Yes, but you must be above them to initiate the bullrush..

Bullrushing somebody who you have just tripped, using your free attack from improved trip? Sure, but not with a weapon unless you have some obscure PrC.. and like somebody said, they will get an insanely good modifier. I would put it at +15 or +20 actually, considering they are lying down and you are standing up... it should be almost impossible to bullrush a prone opponent unless they are several size categories larger than you, in which case their weight starts to become another mitigating factor. At any rate, even with improved damage, it's just not worth it when you can just take a heavy power attack on them with the net +8 modifier to attack (provided you used that heavy power attack to trip them in the first place).

Sounds to me like your player is just trying to wring every last drop of cheese out of his class abilities, rather than thinking about how it actually looks and feels in-game. I would punish him as a DM for this, in-game.

Knight_Of_Twilight
2007-05-08, 04:26 PM
First, a cultural referance:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html

Now, how is this being done.

First, be large. At least a +1 LA.

Next, exotic weapn feat, spiked chain.

Next, Power Attack, Improved Bull rush, Knock Back. 3 feats.

Next, Combat Expertise and Improved trip. This lets you get a free attack after you trip them. Strictly, not needed, but it would be nice for this build. 2 feats.

Not having dungeonscape, I wonít comment about the variant fighter. However, if it is a variant fighter, I am will to bet that they donít get full fighter bonus feats. We are talking about a minimum of 4 feats, with 6 as the optimal build. For a few extra points of damage? Eh. Does not sound like it is worth it.

That being said, Knight of Twilight, I might have to go with your player on this one. One, in theory, could bull rush a fallen creature with a weapon. But it would have to be built right.


I am pretty sure this is what he is doing.

What about this makes it so you no longer have to enter a characters square to bull rush them?

Arbitrarity
2007-05-08, 05:03 PM
Knockback. You get a bullrush attempt when hitting.

So get knockdown and knockback, and you hit, trip, free attack, throw backwards, and maybe AOO.

Dungeon crasher looses second bonus feat, and... maybe 8'th can't remember. The 8'th level thing does 8d6+3* str mod.

Oh yeah, I think knockback or something allows you to apply the amount you PA by to your bull rush.

Now, where's the flaming bowling ball of D00M?

Ah, here. Person_man's Flaming Homer :P
Goliath

Overwhelming Attack Monk 2/Fighter 6/Psychic Warrior 2/Pyrokineticist 1/Warmind 5/Full BAB class 4

Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Knock-Down, Cleave, Knockback, Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, Hold the Line.

Other Feats for Consideration: Mage Slayer, Battle Jump, Robilar's Gambit.

Books: SRD, Complete Warrior, Races of Stone (Knockback), Unapproachable East (Battle Jump), PHBII (Robilar's Gambit), Dungeonscape (Dungeon Crasher ability).

Before combat, use the Expansion power on yourself to increase your reach.

Charge 10 feet into your enemy. Make a touch attack with your fire lash as a two-handed weapon (as it explicitly says you can in the FAQ). Transfer your full BAB to Leap Attack. Make sure that your initial enemy is close to you when you attack him if possible, as you want to keep your enemies in your threatened area each time you knock him back.

If you hit (you probably will) and deal more then 10 or more points of damage (you will) you get a free Trip attempt (from Knock-Down).

If your enemy is standing next to anyone, each attack also applies to them (Warmind Sweeping Strike). You will also get a free Trip attempt against him and a follow up attack (Improved Trip), which will also apply to someone standing next to him, until pretty much everyone in your threatened area has been hit multiple times and is prone.

Regardless of whether or not the Trip attempts succeed, you get a free Bull Rush attempt (Knockback, which requires that you be a Goliath) on each attack, applying your damage and Power Attack bonus to the opposed Str check.

This should allow you to push your enemy several spaces backwards. For each space you move your enemy backwards, you may also shift him one hex to the left or the right (Shock Trooper). If this pushes your enemy into the same hex as another enemy, you get a free Trip Attempt on each of them (Shock Trooper again - though if one of the enemies is already Prone from a successful Trip, you can't Trip him again).

Again, each successful Trip gets a free follow up attack, and each successful melee attack gets a free Bull Rush, which can start another Trip. And every melee attack can also apply to someone standing next to your enemy using Sweeping Strike.

Plus, if you kill someone (you will) you get a Cleave attack, which will also apply to whoever is standing next to them, and start the Attack+Trip+Attack+Bull Rush+Trip+Attack... combo, again.

And, at any time you can Bull Rush an enemy into a wall or other inanimate object, and use the Dungeon Crasher ability to deal an extra 8d6 + (3 x Str mod) damage. This is really easy to pull off, since with Shock Trooper and your uber Bull Rush multiplier, you should be able to fling enemies pretty far.

If you're feeling really saucy, use Psionic Lion's Charge for a full attack.

If someone charges you (they pretty much have to in order reach you) you get a free AoO from Hold the Line, resolved immediately before the charge attack, in addition to the normal AoO you'd get for them moving through your threatened area.

Knight_Of_Twilight
2007-05-08, 06:11 PM
Knockback. You get a bullrush attempt when hitting.

So get knockdown and knockback, and you hit, trip, free attack, throw backwards, and maybe AOO.

Dungeon crasher looses second bonus feat, and... maybe 8'th can't remember. The 8'th level thing does 8d6+3* str mod.

Oh yeah, I think knockback or something allows you to apply the amount you PA by to your bull rush.

Now, where's the flaming bowling ball of D00M?

Ah, here. Person_man's Flaming Homer :P
Goliath

Overwhelming Attack Monk 2/Fighter 6/Psychic Warrior 2/Pyrokineticist 1/Warmind 5/Full BAB class 4

Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Knock-Down, Cleave, Knockback, Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, Hold the Line.

Other Feats for Consideration: Mage Slayer, Battle Jump, Robilar's Gambit.

Books: SRD, Complete Warrior, Races of Stone (Knockback), Unapproachable East (Battle Jump), PHBII (Robilar's Gambit), Dungeonscape (Dungeon Crasher ability).

Before combat, use the Expansion power on yourself to increase your reach.

Charge 10 feet into your enemy. Make a touch attack with your fire lash as a two-handed weapon (as it explicitly says you can in the FAQ). Transfer your full BAB to Leap Attack. Make sure that your initial enemy is close to you when you attack him if possible, as you want to keep your enemies in your threatened area each time you knock him back.

If you hit (you probably will) and deal more then 10 or more points of damage (you will) you get a free Trip attempt (from Knock-Down).

If your enemy is standing next to anyone, each attack also applies to them (Warmind Sweeping Strike). You will also get a free Trip attempt against him and a follow up attack (Improved Trip), which will also apply to someone standing next to him, until pretty much everyone in your threatened area has been hit multiple times and is prone.

Regardless of whether or not the Trip attempts succeed, you get a free Bull Rush attempt (Knockback, which requires that you be a Goliath) on each attack, applying your damage and Power Attack bonus to the opposed Str check.

This should allow you to push your enemy several spaces backwards. For each space you move your enemy backwards, you may also shift him one hex to the left or the right (Shock Trooper). If this pushes your enemy into the same hex as another enemy, you get a free Trip Attempt on each of them (Shock Trooper again - though if one of the enemies is already Prone from a successful Trip, you can't Trip him again).

Again, each successful Trip gets a free follow up attack, and each successful melee attack gets a free Bull Rush, which can start another Trip. And every melee attack can also apply to someone standing next to your enemy using Sweeping Strike.

Plus, if you kill someone (you will) you get a Cleave attack, which will also apply to whoever is standing next to them, and start the Attack+Trip+Attack+Bull Rush+Trip+Attack... combo, again.

And, at any time you can Bull Rush an enemy into a wall or other inanimate object, and use the Dungeon Crasher ability to deal an extra 8d6 + (3 x Str mod) damage. This is really easy to pull off, since with Shock Trooper and your uber Bull Rush multiplier, you should be able to fling enemies pretty far.

If you're feeling really saucy, use Psionic Lion's Charge for a full attack.

If someone charges you (they pretty much have to in order reach you) you get a free AoO from Hold the Line, resolved immediately before the charge attack, in addition to the normal AoO you'd get for them moving through your threatened area.


Wow, this is exactly what he's been doing.

Well hey, he wants to play that game, so be it.