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chrisstpeter
2015-08-20, 11:29 PM
I am DMing for the second time. Our first session was a test run, and it seemed to go pretty well. I had the PCs receive a letter informing them they've been chosen to basically be given their own adventuring/ do-gooder guild, fully staffed and funded, and with connections already established. Basically setting it up so that rather than trying to hook them for each adventure in the campaign, I can just have their general manager say "Hey, I got a request for help from so and so". (the one other time I DMed I had a hell of a time getting the PCs to take the hook, and it eventually came to "Look guys, I have encounters written up, but unless you take the very obvious hook, you're just going to wander around doing nothing, since I don't have random encounters set up"). They then went through a short, linear dungeon, that I was quite proud of. Every room had a puzzle to solve (of varying difficulties) and combat encounter alternatives to progressing in case they couldn't or didn't feel like solving the puzzle. At the end was a set of keys to the guild hall.

So, now that I've run my first (successful) session, I'm starting some long term planning for story arc. I have 3 PCs, and I'm planning 3 separate mini-campaigns that should appeal to all, but are tailored towards one PC in particular. For the druid, the villain will be a blighter, for the pally, a blackguard, and for the wizard I'm thinking wizard who's trying to become a lich. They're way too low level for a full-fledged lich, but I figured that I could have a wizard who's abducting kids in a village somewhere to complete an alternative (read: I made it up and it has no basis that I know of in source books) lichdom ritual.

Nothing stellar, but not too bad I think (I'm trying to design a campaign I'd love to play). Here's where I'm running into trouble: I want these 3 villains to eventually be discovered to be the lackeys of their real enemy, who will be the recurring villain for most of the campaign. What I can't figure out is who/what this mega villain should be, and how he's connected to the minor villains they'll be facing early on. And I want it to be something really awesome (of course). I want my campaign to eventually have all the awesome monsters (one of the PCs is my brother, and he's never played any RPG, and the extent of his familiarity with the fantasy genre is the LOTR/ Hobbit movies, and Harry Potter which he liked as a kid but somehow outgrew, which I didn't know was possible... I really want to make this campaign good enough to convert him, haha). My initial thoughts were ilithid and/or beholder. Any thoughts? Thanks everyone!

EDIT: Ok, I have an idea I think I'd like to try. I have no problems homebrewing it, but I'd prefer it if I could find it, or something close, in the D&D 3.5 source books. My idea is that the person behind it all turns out to be the one who founded the guild (whom they don't know also happens to be their meek halfling general manager). His motivation is that for some reason he thinks his wife's soul is being held by a devil, so he went bargaining for her release. The devil didn't have her soul (in fact, her soul is in some sort of good afterlife), but he decided to run with it. He tells the halfling that he needs to give him some (as of yet undetermined) number of souls. But not just any souls, souls of corrupted good beings. So the halfling finds people who are still good aligned, and somehow (haven't figured out how yet) pushes them to become corrupted. Hence the blighter, blackguard, and necromancer/ wannabe lich. Then they go around, committing more and more evil deeds, becoming more and more corrupted. When they're "ripe", he sends the heroes he's recruited to take them down (the PCs not realizing that all those nifty OP weapons they picked up back at the guild all have soulbind gems worked somewhere into them keyed to the specific individual they've been sent after. Once they get back, their weapons are serviced... sharpened, polished, general maintainance.... and the soulbind gem removed and replaced with a new one keyed to their next target).

So I have source material for stuff like soulbind and souls as currency, but what I cannot find is any source material about the value or uses of specific qualities of souls. Is there any source reason why this devil would want to collect corrupted souls rather than say, good souls? Also, any source material (or even just your own personal ideas) on the PCs knowing them before they fell having some effect? Like the souls are even more valuable/ powerful, or it messes the PCs up enough to corrupt them a little? Also, if any of you just have general advice or ideas on how to improve this idea. Thanks guys!

SECOND EDIT: Ok, I tracked down my copy of the fiendish codex... I was overthinking it. No need for soulbind or special reason for corruption. He's a devil. A demon might relish in the slaughter of innocents and good beings, but a devil is all about corrupting souls and then having them die. They automatically go to Baator, and they're marked by the demon that corrupted them (directly or indirectly). I'd still appreciate any other thoughts or advice on this idea however!

Kane0
2015-08-21, 06:46 AM
So who would have a blighter, a blackguard and a wannabe lich as lackeys?

Any number of entities, with any number of reasons and methods. Just pick a theme.
For example a devil is subtly manipulating these fellas in order to organise a takover which will leave him in possession of a large amount of damned souls, cementing a promotion.

On the flipside a canny celestial is subtly manipulating amd provoking these no gooders into revealing themselves so they get killed off before they become a big threat, but in doing so the celestial is doing more and more radical things. If nobody stops him he will become the threat he seeks to prevent. Such is hubris.

How about an aboleth or other power, venegeful entity thats sitting quietly in their lair setting up their grand plans via proxy, such as a giant warlord?

A rogue semi divine being on the run is using these pawns in a desperate attempts to throw off his persuers and gather sufficiently powerful allies.

A misguided high priest, possibly the recipient of a hacked or unfortunately garbled communication with their deity has it in their head that bringing these vilains into the fold will somehow help his church and community.

An ancient shapeshifter is looking for a laugh, he's been a bit bored over the last century and could use a rousing game of global conquest to keep himself amused.

An intelligent artifact is tired of waiting at the end of some long forgotten dungeon to be discovered by a worthy hero and decided to just lure people down in order to be found, for some fresh air if nothing else.

It all depends on how you want to go about the endgame. Is it a massive conspiracy, or is it a blatant agenda? Is this the next greek legend or a humorous romp through fantasy lands? Is your villain subtle and maniacal or brutal and direct? Is it personal or are the PCs pretty much a third party to the villain?

Whatever you choose, be adaptable and be ready to roll with what your players go towards. Focus more on getting the DMing practice in over weaving a story that will be talked about for years. That comes with experience, so one thing at a time.

prufock
2015-08-21, 07:48 AM
Those three enemies scream "NEGATIVE ENERGY!" to me, especially if the wizard is a necromancer or dread necromancer. He could be in process of becoming a necropolitan, or already be one as a "lich lite."

Vampires (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm) are always fun as a BBEG. They're only +2 CR, so the template is nice to apply to any other classed creature. As for the plot, I'd imagine the vampire on some sort of revenge mission against the guild for some past transgression, using a Voidstone (basically a shard of rock made of negative energy that destroys anything it touches, DC 25 Fort to negate - if they are of a somewhat low level, lower the DC and make it do negative energy damage instead, equal to 1d6 per 2 HD of the vampire) to carve tunnels under the guild's buildings. The tunnels would make up the lair of each mini-boss, and the final tunnel carved by the vampire is to be the last piece of the puzzle to invoke a ritual that will have some worse-than-death curse on the guild members. It should form some sort of noticeable design if they map it, like an inverted cross (long end pointing north).

Motivation: Perhaps the first dungeon was the vampire's former lair, from which he was years ago ousted by the guild, which they now use as a training ground for new recruits? I'm having trouble deciphering the meaning behind a set of guild keys at the end of the first tunnel, but it sounds almost like a guild initiation.

So there you go, the PCs try to stop the ritual and curse of their own guild, brought about indirectly by the guild's own actions against the vampire in the past. Each tunnel should have indications that negative energy was used in making them, such as monsters native to the negative energy plane, minor spell effect residue, etc.

Remember to make the vampire a tough fight for the party, maybe CR equal to party level +2 to +4. Give him some minions (vampire spawn) and have him use the underground terrain to his advantage (he can become a bat to fly into small spaces, climb on the ceilings, and become gaseous to get into places the PCs can't directly reach, like a stone grate they have to smash through.

chrisstpeter
2015-08-21, 08:16 AM
Thanks guys, great ideas from both of you!

chrisstpeter
2015-08-21, 08:55 AM
I've also played with the idea of having the lackeys be part of a beholder cult and having the beholder be the BBEG, and have his cult leader be the recurring villain until they finally defeat him and then have the beholder be the big reveal when they're tired, hurt, low on spells, and think they've finally won.

dream
2015-08-22, 01:40 AM
Yeah, but why would a Beholder, as powerful as they are, need lackey to work for it? They just kill anyone in their way, as a monster should. Plus, the "I Gotcha!" GM trope of throwing powerful monsters at weakened PCs can potentially anger the f*** out of your players. How can they win?

Ever consider a real villain that needs lackey to do his will, like say, an evil Halfling? I always see GMs using Lichs and Vampires and Dragons and every other powerful monster that never needs lackey because power. A halfling villain needs people as go-betweens and enforcers and emissaries. That kind of villain stays behind the scenes, calling the shots, and the PC may never meet them. Maybe the halfling supports the local leadership anonymously, has dealings with local nobility, directs the local Thieves Guild, contracts work to monster tribes (orcs, kobolds, goblins, ect.), and pays his dues to the local cathedral.

Unless your players are complete noobs, they will figure out what you're planning UNLESS you throw a ridiculous loop and make the BBEG someone they would never suspect. Someone they never see. And someone who has enough influence to use or oppose them at will.

Or, I mean, run with the Beholder idea. I've seen that work before:smallwink:

Yora
2015-08-22, 05:38 AM
A good main villain also needs to be introduced and developed long before the final fight. Having completed the campaign and then a big scary monster appearing out of nowhere would seem just random and disconnected.

What game are you playing exactly?

chrisstpeter
2015-08-22, 07:18 AM
Yeah, but why would a Beholder, as powerful as they are, need lackey to work for it? They just kill anyone in their way, as a monster should. Plus, the "I Gotcha!" GM trope of throwing powerful monsters at weakened PCs can potentially anger the f*** out of your players. How can they win?


Yeah, I'd had the same thought about why would the beholder have lackeys. wasn't sure how I would work that if I went that way. As far as can't win, at that point it would become very much story driven. Playing it by numbers, no way they could win, but I would have them get away, or if they were really inventive and had good ideas, let them (barely) win. Myself, my wife, and the one other player who is not new to gaming all prefer a story driven campaign anyway. Lots of RP, immersion, and character progression.

chrisstpeter
2015-08-22, 07:43 AM
A good main villain also needs to be introduced and developed long before the final fight. Having completed the campaign and then a big scary monster appearing out of nowhere would seem just random and disconnected.

What game are you playing exactly?

We're playing D&D 3.5, but it's a small group consisting of my wife and 2 brothers (one a nerd like me, the other one, the new guy, very much not a nerd). We tend to play it fast and loose with the rules, so while we do use CRs and such, they are more a guideline. Good example was a few weeks ago in the game my wife is running (2 PC game) we ran into a troll who was meant to be a deterrent, he was a CR 7 I think and we were both only level 2. I used a turn dirt to mud spell to make an 8 foot deep pit, then we got the troll to charge us. He hits the pit, gets stuck, we attack from range. I use one of my two remaining fire spells to hit him and the mud, hardening it somewhat, which ups the DC for him to get unstuck, and each round the troll just sinks deeper and deeper. We kill him til he's dead with normal weapons, then I use my last fire spell to finish him off and stop him from regenerating. There was no way we should've been able to take him on, but it was a solid plan. I've been running my game the same way.

But also, I think I may have worded the reveal confusingly... the beholder (or whatever BBEG I do end up using) in that scenario was not meant to be the end of the campaign. It was meant to be the big reveal at the end of the session. Also, if they had just defeated a beholder cult, which they would have been well aware at that point what type of cult it is, everyone (or at least the 2 veteran players) would fully expect a beholder to be lurking around somewhere.

Yora
2015-08-22, 08:28 AM
I think for your group it might be a better approach to simply keep playing at lower levels and having fights when it seemes to make sense for the story and progresses it, intstead of having lots of fights to get the characters to a higher level so they will be able to fight a high level enemy. And to be able to take on a beholder or dragon while low on power they are going to need a pretty high level. (Which I think is the biggest problem with D&D 3rd edition. All the cool monsters are not available for a very long time when you start at 1st level.)
A problem with campaigns that are planned to be very long and go over many levels is that you can't be entirely sure you'll actually get to complete it, and there's a great risk of having long stretches of boring stuff while the characters are leveling up until they can continue with the next good part. A good idea would be to prepare all the first three storylines in a way that they could also stand on their own and they will be fun even if you play only two or just one of them. If the group is close to the end of the third one and still wants to keep going, then you can tag on the fouth one.
Roleplaying games are very different from books. It's not just important that it all will be interesting and make sense at the end, but that it has to be rewarding the whole time.

Since the first three villains are all users of dark magic, I agree with the idea of making their master some being of evil dark magic. A minor god of necromancy, a demon lord of undead, or some unnatural force of darkness trapped in a secret prison underground. I particularly like the last one, because it would make sense for the being to send different minions on different missions to try out various things that might free it.

The idea of having the master villain pop up right after they defeated the third minion villain to begin the fourth storyline probably isn't going to work, though. Because what could possible happen? a.) The players win, the master is dead. b.) The players lose, they are dead. Either way, that's not the start of a storyline. It's also going to be complicated to reveal to the players that the first and second villain they defeated where connected to the master without revealing that the three minions are connected during the second and third storyline.

Oberon Kenobi
2015-08-22, 09:08 AM
I'm gonna chime in with the Story Gamer advice: ask your players what the big bad should be

Okay, maybe not directly, but ask them questions over the course of the campaign, and let their answers stand. Use your lackeys to develop the big bad by tying them directly in with the PCs.

That blighter? The druid knows something about 'em, because they used to be part of the same circle. Ask the druid why the blighter left, what made him turn his back on nature.

The blackguard? Used to be part of the Paladin's faith. Ask what tempted them both, and why the blackguard chose to fall

That wizard? Old classmate--or teacher. What are they so terrified of that they're willing to submit to lichdom to escape it?

Use their answers to flesh out the lackeys, and by extension the villain they all work for. You'd be surprised how much of your homework the players will do for you if you let them--and they'll be a lot more invested in a story they helped create than in one you wrote on your own. You probably will to, surprising as that may be; the constraints can inspire creativity, and the positive collaborative energy is just great for staving off campaign fatigue

TheThan
2015-08-22, 01:45 PM
How about an Aristocrat?

Build him with high levels of diplomacy, gather information and intimidate. The blackguard, (wannabe) lich and blighter are his tools in his quest for power and prestige.

He uses the blackguard to cause social and political unrest. He uses the wannabe lich to cause magical upheaval and he uses the blighter to cause natural disasters, and wreck havoc on the countryside. They don’t necessarily work for him; he manipulates them all separately into doing things that elevates his power and prestige. Maybe he’s part of the guild (the guy that sent them the letter), and has plans to use the PCs to eliminate his tools before they get too powerful for him to control, thus ending their threat, and elevating his status and prestige.

Think about it, there’s a blackguard on the loose, our aristocrat gets an army together to take him down. There's a mad wizard trying for litchdom, our aristocrat gets a group of powerful spellcasters together to stop him. There’s a blighter causing natural disasters, he gathers druids together to stop him. Each time one of these threats raises its ugly head, he’s the one guy that organizes their downfall, which in turn earns him more and more power, prestige and authority.

Eventually he's become the grand vizier or whatever to the King, where he can become the power behind the throne.

chrisstpeter
2015-08-22, 05:08 PM
I'm gonna chime in with the Story Gamer advice: ask your players what the big bad should be

Okay, maybe not directly, but ask them questions over the course of the campaign, and let their answers stand. Use your lackeys to develop the big bad by tying them directly in with the PCs.

That blighter? The druid knows something about 'em, because they used to be part of the same circle. Ask the druid why the blighter left, what made him turn his back on nature.

The blackguard? Used to be part of the Paladin's faith. Ask what tempted them both, and why the blackguard chose to fall

That wizard? Old classmate--or teacher. What are they so terrified of that they're willing to submit to lichdom to escape it?

Use their answers to flesh out the lackeys, and by extension the villain they all work for. You'd be surprised how much of your homework the players will do for you if you let them--and they'll be a lot more invested in a story they helped create than in one you wrote on your own. You probably will to, surprising as that may be; the constraints can inspire creativity, and the positive collaborative energy is just great for staving off campaign fatigue

THIS. Fantastic idea, thank you.

chrisstpeter
2015-08-22, 05:10 PM
How about an Aristocrat?

Build him with high levels of diplomacy, gather information and intimidate. The blackguard, (wannabe) lich and blighter are his tools in his quest for power and prestige.

He uses the blackguard to cause social and political unrest. He uses the wannabe lich to cause magical upheaval and he uses the blighter to cause natural disasters, and wreck havoc on the countryside. They don’t necessarily work for him; he manipulates them all separately into doing things that elevates his power and prestige. Maybe he’s part of the guild (the guy that sent them the letter), and has plans to use the PCs to eliminate his tools before they get too powerful for him to control, thus ending their threat, and elevating his status and prestige.

Think about it, there’s a blackguard on the loose, our aristocrat gets an army together to take him down. There's a mad wizard trying for litchdom, our aristocrat gets a group of powerful spellcasters together to stop him. There’s a blighter causing natural disasters, he gathers druids together to stop him. Each time one of these threats raises its ugly head, he’s the one guy that organizes their downfall, which in turn earns him more and more power, prestige and authority.

Eventually he's become the grand vizier or whatever to the King, where he can become the power behind the throne.

This is also a fantastic idea, they were pawns in his scheme all along! I like it!