How to tame a Red Dragon (wyrmling)

[ImSAMazing]

What if you obtain a red dragon egg, how would you train the wwyrmling so it listens to you?

[DracoKnight]

What if you obtain a red dragon egg, how would you train the wwyrmling so it listens to you?

I would require an Animal Handling check. The DC would be like 25... unless you hatched it out yourself... (And if you hatched it out, I would say that it's alignment would be determined by how you treated it, it wouldn't be automatically Chaotic Evil).

[saeval]

I would require an Animal Handling check. The DC would be like 25... unless you hatched it out yourself... (And if you hatched it out, I would say that it's alignment would be determined by how you treated it, it wouldn't be automatically Chaotic Evil).

See though, then we get into Nature/Nurture, and nobody wins. Rules basically having it lean heavily towards Chaotic Evil. It'd be more fun actively working against that. I'm not sure routine and companionship would easily overturn hereditary greed and a dominant will.

I think Animal Handling a creature that is born more intelligent than your average human is a bit of a stretch as well. I feel like if your allowing a Wyrmling into your campaign, as a potential ally to PC's you've just generated a very detailed character that you need a well thought out motivation pool for. It should be roleplayed out, not dicerolled.

[ImSAMazing]

You can try to influence it right?

[Socko525]

I guess a draconic sorcerer's double proficiency bonus on Cha checks regarding dragons would really come in handy

[ImSAMazing]

I guess a draconic sorcerer's double proficiency bonus on Cha checks regarding dragons would really come in handy

True. But if you be with the dragon while its in the egg, while it is a wyrmling and you teach him about the world, itwill see you as a friend right? That shouldnt ask for a chck am I wrong?

[Strill]

I would require an Animal Handling check. The DC would be like 25... unless you hatched it out yourself... (And if you hatched it out, I would say that it's alignment would be determined by how you treated it, it wouldn't be automatically Chaotic Evil).

I thought dragons were self-sufficient after hatching. In fact, most Wyrmlings have an INT score of 10, and can speak draconic.

[Ninja_Prawn]

See though, then we get into Nature/Nurture, and nobody wins. Rules basically having it lean heavily towards Chaotic Evil. It'd be more fun actively working against that. I'm not sure routine and companionship would easily overturn hereditary greed and a dominant will.

How do we know ImSAM's PC isn't CE? The two might get on like a house on fire!

Probably literally.

[ImSAMazing]

How do we know ImSAM's PC isn't CE? The two might get on like a house on fire!

Probably literally.

I might grab the Wyrmling under my shoulder and burn thru the vaults of the bank of Neverwinter :smallwink::smallbiggrin::smallcool:

[rollingForInit]

It's not really an issue of taming a beast, so much as trying to rear a child that happens to have extremely violent and malicious tendencies, can breathe fire, perform manage and has tons predatory instincts.

Try to raise it well and have it see you as a parent (sort of), and the rest is up to the DM. Does the dragon get a good/neutral alignment, or does it really just want to be violent? It really is just something the DM will have to decide.

[UXLZ]

In humans the nature/nurture percentage is generally thought of as around 70/30, so if you raised it well it could end up as a generally kind being with occasional violent tendencies that they're ashamed of and try to control. Of course, this is DnD and everything's weird so it's up to the GM.

[Yuki Akuma]

Dragons are sapient creatures. This would be the same as raising any child - albeit a child that's born around as intelligent as an average human adult with natural violent tendencies and the ability to breathe fire.

I'd suggest a fireproof playroom at the very least. Try to nurture its intelligence by starting its education early - and try to include some moral lessons in that education.

Possibly try to track down a Good-aligned fire dragon and try to get its advice/help.

Dragons tend to imprint on the first creature it sees when it hatches - they spend at least a few years being cared for by their mother. This should help getting it to listen to you.

[Daishain]

This came up in a campaign I DMed recently. Players ended up hatching and subsequently raising a Blue. (only allowed it via declaring breath and other combat options not reliable enough to be used in combat for the first few months of life, the campaign would end only a little bit after that point)

No animal handling checks. This was a full fledged NPC with its own motivations, goals, and desires. I roleplayed her as a child, with somewhat kittenish antics (D&D dragons are more feline like than reptilian). Her basic nature as a blue led her to seek and collect things she found pretty, and to delight in others answering to her whims. But she was also devoted to her weird family, and learned both by word and by example. Influencing her behavior by word was often more a matter of Persuasion checks.

In the epilogue for the campaign, as a result of the party's influence, I described her adult self as LN trending towards NG. Used to working with humanoids, and having few willing to accept a blue dragon off hand, she established a mercenary company, mostly composed of other misfits.

[Beleriphon]

In the epilogue for the campaign, as a result of the party's influence, I described her adult self as LN trending towards NG. Used to working with humanoids, and having few willing to accept a blue dragon off hand, she established a mercenary company, mostly composed of other misfits.

That's one hell of a mercenary company. Imagine the first time the enemy engages them and the leader turns into a freaking dragon and starts breathing lighting on everything in sight.

[PoeticDwarf]

I would require an Animal Handling check. The DC would be like 25... unless you hatched it out yourself... (And if you hatched it out, I would say that it's alignment would be determined by how you treated it, it wouldn't be automatically Chaotic Evil).

Because a wyrming is an intelligent beast, it wouldn't be animal handling but persuasion, and because it is intelligent maybe you can go for a parent/son or daugther relationship. I would say DC 25 intimidation or persuasion if you want that he listens to you, or DC 20 maybe.

[Envyus]

Dragons are sapient creatures. This would be the same as raising any child - albeit a child that's born around as intelligent as an average human adult with natural violent tendencies and the ability to breathe fire.

I'd suggest a fireproof playroom at the very least. Try to nurture its intelligence by starting its education early - and try to include some moral lessons in that education.

Possibly try to track down a Good-aligned fire dragon and try to get its advice/help.

Dragons tend to imprint on the first creature it sees when it hatches - they spend at least a few years being cared for by their mother. This should help getting it to listen to you.

I did some research on Wrymling dragons. All Dragons once born see themselves as better then all the other creatures around them. And believe they are destined for great things. '

In the case of a dragons nature. The Adventure Ghosts of Dragonspear Castle. Has the PC's find a Black Dragon egg right when it hatches. The Black Dragon imprints on the first PC it sees and largely obeys them, disliking other creatures. However as it takes place in combat more and more it becomes more violet and cruel. For example every time it kills a creatures it spends it's next turn eating them. No matter what it's imprinted owner says. It also attacks creatures it views as weak looking with out being asked to.

Eventually the Party will meet the Dragons Father. Who had the egg stolen from him and is worried about his mate getting angry. Once the Wyrmling sees the Adult Dragon it instantly goes to it's fathers side, knowing it's kin. If the party ends up in a fight with it's father the Wyrmling does no help ether side it hangs back waiting for creatures to be dropped before dragging off the bodies to eat.

[ImSAMazing]

Because a wyrming is an intelligent beast, it wouldn't be animal handling but persuasion, and because it is intelligent maybe you can go for a parent/son or daugther relationship. I would say DC 25 intimidation or persuasion if you want that he listens to you, or DC 20 maybe.

Any documentation/source on that? A dragon does imprint on the first face it sees, just like a child...

[Inevitability]

Any documentation/source on that? A dragon does imprint on the first face it sees, just like a child...

I'm pretty sure humans don't work that way. Any biologists/psychologists here who can confirm?

[Daishain]

I'm pretty sure humans don't work that way. Any biologists/psychologists here who can confirm?
I'm neither, but I've studied enough of both to be confident that this isn't a thing.

There is a bonding involved, but it isn't anything nearly as cut and dry as 'the first face one sees'. It is a process that can take days, weeks, or months. And anyone that thinks a child will automatically listen to its 'mother' hasn't been around children.

so far as I can tell, imsamazing may be thinking of certain species of bird, but they have zilch to do with D&D dragons.

[ImSAMazing]

I'm pretty sure humans don't work that way. Any biologists/psychologists here who can confirm?

That wasn t what I meant. I meant that they had a better chance to form a good bond, at least I believe in that. However, what do you think about taming a Red dragon?

[Beleriphon]

That wasn t what I meant. I meant that they had a better chance to form a good bond, at least I believe in that. However, what do you think about taming a Red dragon?

Infant humans learn the sound of a parents voice, long before they can physically focus their eyes to see clearly, but once they can focus mom and dad's faces are the first things they learn to recognize. Imprinting does occur with most water foul as a survival strategy. It is entirely possible for ducklings to imprint on something larger than themselves shortly after hatching. Dragons probably have less of this, largely because they aren't usually prey animals.

[Kane0]

The Draconomicon series of books would be rather helpful in this case.

One does not simply 'tame' a dragon, especially a chromatic. They hatch with near full mental and physical capacity, and are predatory creatures capable of hunting within the same day of hatching. They are not reliant on parents nor siblings, and often are born with inherited memories and knowledge on top of their natural instincts. They don't just believe themselves superior to humanoids, they are superior to humanoids, and as such are extremely unlikely to see them as anything more as playthings or food.

A simple Animal Handling check won't do you any good, these are not animals nor are they able to be reared like a beast of burden, or even raised like a child. We have no comparison in our world because we deal with either other humans or animals, of which a dragon is neither. A dragon is a magnificent creature fully aware of its position in life and the most likely ways to keep it under your control is to exert sufficient power over it, convince or deceive it into cooperation with you or fundamentally change it in such a way that it is essentially brainwashed.

So when your egg hatches, expect an encounter similar to an adult dragon, minus the treasure. They might be smart enough to realize it is in their best interests to work with you, but know that it will always consider you beneath them, whether that be now or in the next century.

But to answer your question: Magic. Powerful Magic.
You want to either charm/dominate it into submission from the word go, then when you get the chance restructure its mind (possibly via a wish spell) to remove traits that you don't want in a domesticated dragon, such as its pride. This will have side effects, but its better than your pet/mount deciding at an inopportune time to rid itself of you so it can live freely, exact vengeance upon the petty creatures arrogant enough to attempt to enslave it then gather itself a nice big hoard to lounge around in.

Caveat: This of course is all thrown out the window if the DM takes the 'How to train your dragon' approach, wherein dragons are more like unusually smart animals. Then you'd want a couple of animal handling checks I guess. but where's the fun in that?

[Mellack]

I was going to point out the Dragonomicon, but Kane0 already said what I was going to, and probably said it better. I agree with the post above.:smallsmile:

[Ziegander]

Yeah, if you want to "tame" a dragon, you're doing it wrong. The question is akin to "how do I tame an above-average strength/durability/intelligence/force of will human being?" You don't tame human beings. I mean, it can be done, but not through your conventional "taming-a-dog" means. Only by resorting to atrocity can you "tame" even an average human being. "Taming" an exceptionally strong/tough/intelligent human being with a powerful force of its own personality? In other words, a creature with stats like a dragon? Stockholm syndrome doesn't even begin to cover the depths of depravity you may have to go through to get the thing to obey commands like a puppy dog.

D&D dragons are not like the ones in the the How to Train Your Dragon movie. Even wyrmlings have statblocks on par with low-level adventurers and that far, far outstrip normal representatives of humanoid populations. Not that exceptional members of the humanoid populace can't match or exceed dragon stats over a given level range, but basically what I'm saying is not only are "dragons people too," but they are better than most "people." You don't "train," a dragon, but, perhaps, the right person could teach a dragon. Even a chaotic evil red dragon could learn that their humanoid "parent" is actually a valuable guardian, hunter, and source of knowledge. But the key here is you must prove your worth to the dragon. Exerting your will over it, without resorting to magic, is going to fail spectacularly. The dragon has a stronger will than you, a higher Charisma score, and it is physically your superior in every way (not to mention having spells and crap).

[Mellack]

I would like to add that even a wyrmling is not a blank slate in the mental capacity. They are born with a fair amount of their parents knowledge passed on to them genetically. You are not going to trick them into thinking you are their parent, for example.

Quoting the Draconomicon " A wyrmling has a grasp of the generalities of the world and of its own identity. It knows how to move, how to use its innate abilities, who and what its parents are, and—perhaps most important—how to view the world around it. This awareness is one reason that even the youngest dragons are capable of surviving to adulthood. It is also why a sense of superiority and arrogance is ubiquitous among chromatic dragons: They are born already knowing that they’re among the most powerful creatures in the world (or at least will be, after they mature)."

[Rhaegar14]

In humans the nature/nurture percentage is generally thought of as around 70/30, so if you raised it well it could end up as a generally kind being with occasional violent tendencies that they're ashamed of and try to control. Of course, this is DnD and everything's weird so it's up to the GM.

As a psychologist (though admittedly in-training) I have to point out that this is very oversimplified and mostly wrong. Different traits have different levels of heritability; intelligence, frequently described as the most heritable of human traits, has a genetic heritability estimate of 0.5-0.8, depending on the age of the population examined, and even that is probably an overestimation.

But yes, traits like aggression and antisocial tendencies do have genetic components, and it's debatable whether you could train all or even most of that out of a creature that is born with cognitive abilities that rival older children if not adults. Very few psychologists adhere to the behaviorist idea that you can condition anything into or out of a child.


I'm pretty sure humans don't work that way. Any biologists/psychologists here who can confirm?

Hey hey!

Attachment is complicated, but what it is definitely not is imprinting. An infant's primary attachment bond tends to be with the mother, but that's because the mother is usually the primary caregiver. If the mother is usually absent and another individual (say, a grandparent) acts as primary caregiver then that attachment will be the primary one. However, there are also genetic influences at work here; infants have what is referred to as "temperament." Temperament is essentially the base personality an infant is born with before that personality is acted on by environmental influences. Temperament is the personality that a child is predisposed to. For example, you can identify introversion or extroversion in an infant that is only a couple of weeks old. Temperament affects attachment by affecting the behavior of the caregiver; a child with a difficult temperament is more likely to elicit frustration from the caregiver, leading to more strained interaction, whereas an easier infant will encourage more warm, loving interaction. A lot of personality theorists believe that this very first attachment has profound implications for attachment style throughout the rest of the lifespan, but that's getting into another topic.

From an evolutionary perspective, I could see imprinting being a thing for dragons. After all, because they are born so cognitively well-developed, imprinting would probably be necessary to facilitate attachment to a parent, since they are much more self-sufficient at birth than the young of most other species.

Note: I am still working on my undergrad degree in Psychology. I have three semesters left. I like to think I know what I'm talking about to a greater extent than your average Internet user, but I am by no means an expert, so please take what I say with a grain of salt.

[UXLZ]

As a psychologist (though admittedly in-training) I have to point out that this is very oversimplified and mostly wrong. Different traits have different levels of heritability; intelligence, frequently described as the most heritable of human traits, has a genetic heritability estimate of 0.5-0.8, depending on the age of the population examined, and even that is probably an overestimation.

But yes, traits like aggression and antisocial tendencies do have genetic components, and it's debatable whether you could train all or even most of that out of a creature that is born with cognitive abilities that rival older children if not adults. Very few psychologists adhere to the behaviorist idea that you can condition anything into or out of a child.

Firstly, that was what I learned several years ago so the numbers may be out of date, and secondly, I would assume that 70/30 is a general overview rather than the specific amount all characteristics adhere to, as I'd consider that notion fairly ludicrous. It's probably more of an average of all reasonably well-known behaviors.

I'm not a behaviorist, to a certain extent at least. I believe that most things can be conditioned into or out of, at least on the surface level.

I don't think real psychologists have much experience with fantasy dragon wyrmlings, so I guess we're once again left at that good 'ole spot: DM Fiat.

[Rhaegar14]

Firstly, that was what I learned several years ago so the numbers may be out of date, and secondly, I would assume that 70/30 is a general overview rather than the specific amount all characteristics adhere to, as I'd consider that notion fairly ludicrous. It's probably more of an average of all reasonably well-known behaviors.

Yeah, but you're missing the overall point that 70/30 seems too uneven to me. Intelligence, the MOST HERITABLE, is thought to be around 50-80% genetic, and many think that this figure is probably an overestimate. Secondly, even if you know that you mean that as an overall number, that is not really how the post came across.

I will wholeheartedly agree, however, that what is the case for humans may be very far removed from what is the case for dragons, since they are inherently magical beings.

[UXLZ]

Yes, and if the MOST heritable characteristic is 50% at minimum and 80% at maximum, as an overestimate, then surely it falls to reason that... Oh, I said nature/nurture, didn't I? OOPS, I meant nurture/nature.

[KorvinStarmast]

You can try to influence it right? Sure. People try to raise tigers as pets. How does that work out?
Other people train tigers and lions to do stuff in the circus or in Vegas shows.
Lot of work, plenty of risk, ask Siegfried and Ro (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siegfried_%26_Roy)y.
Others train Orcas at Sea World.

So raising and training a dragon ... heh, best wishes and have fun! :smallbiggrin: It will be a full time job.

Roll another character, in the meantime. :smallbiggrin:

[kaoskonfety]

As a red dragon, recently hatched by what appears to be human(oid)s, assess the situation - they are likely adventurers, therefore dangerous (for now).

Default "instinct" reaction would likely follow something like:
- Play dumb, maybe they think I'm a wyvern, humaniods are pretty stupid
- Am I bound? if yes, play along but kill them for the indignity at the earliest opportunity, if no continue evaluation
- Are they a threat to me? If no, kill and devour them, burn everything nearby to ash, if yes/maybe continue to evaluate
- Are they strong enough to be useful? If yes, play the part of helpful ally until this changes, when this changes; kill and devour them for the indignity, if no, leave them behind to die when it is most hilarious.
- Are they fawning over me and showering me with treasure and food? Override *eating them* protocols until this stops or I get bored.

Personality wise is alot more varied
- does someone in the party impress it with valour and power?
- does the party show it honest affection as a member of the group?
- does it notice that being a good guy kinda pays well (campaign dependant) and that gaining a rep as a good dragon makes you less likely to get pestered by adventurers later? (they are REALLY annoying)
- is the dragon playful, flighty, aggressive etc. in short, what does its personality (dragonality?) bring to the table?

PC's raising a dragon of any stripe is frankly a small campaign or seriously weighty plot line in a large campaign and could eat up the parties entire lifespans CASUALLY. Relegating it to skill checks in down time (or the player characters trying to do the same) calls for fire. Lots of fire.

[KorvinStarmast]

PC's raising a dragon of any stripe is frankly a small campaign or seriously weighty plot line in a large campaign and could eat up the parties entire lifespans CASUALLY. Relegating it to skill checks in down time (or the player characters trying to do the same) calls for fire. Lots of fire.
And lots of biting. (OBTW, your whole post was most excellent).

I used to see a sig on a forum years ago, something like

Do not trifle with dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

Correction: "Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!" (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=359127)

[Socko525]

Well looks like they imprint, or as it's worded here "bond"
http://i.imgur.com/MozhJz7.jpg

Found this while flipping through Out of the Abyss

[MinotaurWarrior]

I think people are overlooking the divine influence here. Chromatic dragons are all born into a cosmic struggle between good and evil (assuming a standard setting). I think trying to turn a Red dragon to anything but CE behavior by any means other than a reincarnation spell should fail because that goes against the Chromatic Dragon's divinely ordained role in the Multiverse. How this divine force manifests itself is up to the DM, but it should be a major issue.

Now, within that context, the question becomes, essentially, a variation on the old "how do I integrate a CE party member without messing up the whole game." You're probably going to find yourself having to support your wyrmling in all its petty cruel endeavors to keep it on your side for long.

[PoeticDwarf]

I think people are overlooking the divine influence here. Chromatic dragons are all born into a cosmic struggle between good and evil (assuming a standard setting). I think trying to turn a Red dragon to anything but CE behavior by any means other than a reincarnation spell should fail because that goes against the Chromatic Dragon's divinely ordained role in the Multiverse. How this divine force manifests itself is up to the DM, but it should be a major issue.

Now, within that context, the question becomes, essentially, a variation on the old "how do I integrate a CE party member without messing up the whole game." You're probably going to find yourself having to support your wyrmling in all its petty cruel endeavors to keep it on your side for long.

I don't think ImSAMazing has a problem with evil dragons:smallwink:

[kaoskonfety]

Well looks like they imprint, or as it's worded here "bond"

Found this while flipping through Out of the Abyss

And they are rather definitely vague on what this in fact means as some DM's will have serious issue with the team fighter now having a pet red dragon. *EDIT* - others will think its hilarious


I think people are overlooking the divine influence here. Chromatic dragons are all born into a cosmic struggle between good and evil (assuming a standard setting). I think trying to turn a Red dragon to anything but CE behavior by any means other than a reincarnation spell should fail because that goes against the Chromatic Dragon's divinely ordained role in the Multiverse. How this divine force manifests itself is up to the DM, but it should be a major issue.

Now, within that context, the question becomes, essentially, a variation on the old "how do I integrate a CE party member without messing up the whole game." You're probably going to find yourself having to support your wyrmling in all its petty cruel endeavors to keep it on your side for long.

This is rather campaign dependant - some people feel the alignments presented are strong suggestions, some vague population biases, others hard and fast rules.

If dragons are used as a physical aspect of the alignment conflict/ a divine war between Bahumat and Tiamat then yes - you will have several *HELLS* of a time getting any red dragon to be a productive member of society (unless its part of some VERY evil scheme down the line).

I'd feel this to be a moderate minority of games though? In my setting dragons are 'just' people. Horrifically powerful, dramatically long-lived and quite inhuman. But individuals. The alignment in the core being the default from both their natural "in the wild" behaviour and their upbringing, but not an unbreaking law of nature.

[MinotaurWarrior]

This is rather campaign dependant - some people feel the alignments presented are strong suggestions, some vague population biases, others hard and fast rules.

If dragons are used as a physical aspect of the alignment conflict/ a divine war between Bahumat and Tiamat then yes - you will have several *HELLS* of a time getting any red dragon to be a productive member of society (unless its part of some VERY evil scheme down the line).

I'd feel this to be a moderate minority of games though? In my setting dragons are 'just' people. Horrifically powerful, dramatically long-lived and quite inhuman. But individuals. The alignment in the core being the default from both their natural "in the wild" behaviour and their upbringing, but not an unbreaking law of nature.

As a DM, I usually run "everything I remember from the books is true" (so, even if it's my own world, the Gith are in a magic space war against the Ilithid, and Mechanus created the Slaad semi accidentally) and most people I know tend to run "everything I remember and think is cool is true."

Tiamat and the good / evil dragon conflict is very popular, as far as I can tell. I mean, they chose her as the main boss of their first major 1-20 adventure, didn't they? I assume that was based on some market research.

But yeah, your point absolutely stands - the setting is in the mind of the DM, not any book. What I said about Tiamat could be totally wrong at your table.

[kaoskonfety]

As a DM, I usually run "everything I remember from the books is true" (so, even if it's my own world, the Gith are in a magic space war against the Ilithid, and Mechanus created the Slaad semi accidentally) and most people I know tend to run "everything I remember and think is cool is true."

Tiamat and the good / evil dragon conflict is very popular, as far as I can tell. I mean, they chose her as the main boss of their first major 1-20 adventure, didn't they? I assume that was based on some market research.

But yeah, your point absolutely stands - the setting is in the mind of the DM, not any book. What I said about Tiamat could be totally wrong at your table.

I suppose I'd say I'd go with whatever is most interesting, game and story wise, with the book being the default and a guide?

For the most part I do world building with the party at the first session of a long campaign or use a canned/generic setting for short game/ one-shots. Anything that isn't expressly brought up is assumed to be "more or less by the book".

Dragons alignment being utterly immutable feels less interesting (I think). It removes be being able to pitch a twisted and mad Gold Dragon or a noble defender Red. They are not going to be COMMON - if Tiamat shows up "all" the Chromatics are going to flock to her side with perhaps 5 traitors in the whole setting - one for each colour perhaps? (and a similar or smaller number of metallics willing to betray Bahumaut - and in both cases these dragons might in fact be of the "default alignment" for their type). Most of those few Chromatics who are some flavour of "not evil" are still going to side with their Goddess. Her interests are nearly 'by definition' theirs.

Making their alignment immutable also makes the player trying to reform a (very young) Red dragon to the cause of good futile, rather then some degree of very hard. Very hard can be fun(ny), futile is generally more frustrating.

[ImSAMazing]

I don't think ImSAMazing has a problem with evil dragons:smallwink:

Where do you base that on? That isn't nice dude. Not nice.

[Inevitability]

Where do you base that on? That isn't nice dude. Not nice.

This here? ↓


I might grab the Wyrmling under my shoulder and burn thru the vaults of the bank of Neverwinter :smallwink::smallbiggrin::smallcool:

[ImSAMazing]

This here? ↓
That's a good reason.