Monster manual CR corrections

[stenver]

Hello everybody

I have noticed that most of the CR-s listed in MM are completely invalid. Has anybody created a list with the correct CR-s?

Here is one example:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?434995-Monster-manual-cult-fanatic-CR-too-high

[Kryx]

Ummmm, no they are not..?

[KorvinStarmast]

I have noticed that most of the CR-s listed in MM are completely invalid.
How did you arrive at that conclusion?

[stenver]

Lets start with this:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?434995-Monster-manual-cult-fanatic-CR-too-high

[Demonic Spoon]

Lets start with this:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?434995-Monster-manual-cult-fanatic-CR-too-high

"Calculated" CR per the back of the DMG is not supposed to be exactly accurate - the page explicitly tells you that the calculated value may need to be adjusted up or down depending on playtesting.

Furthermore, many monsters have abilities which do not have a purely quantitative affect on their power level, but are strong enough to need to factor into their CR regardless.

[stenver]

"Calculated" CR per the back of the DMG is not supposed to be exactly accurate - the page explicitly tells you that the calculated value may need to be adjusted up or down depending on playtesting.

Furthermore, many monsters have abilities which do not have a purely quantitative affect on their power level, but are strong enough to need to factor into their CR regardless.


I suggest you read the thread I linked first. In addition, you can be certain that a lot of creatures in the MM do not have the correct CR even if you factor their special abilities. Finally, MM should be a good reference with either correct 'number-crunched' or 'playtested' CR. But it is neither.

Lets take the same cult fanatic - Listed CR is 2. Even in the best case scenario with hefty min-maxing of CR system, it is at maximum 1. Are you saying that Monster manual also included the favorable terrain, surprise round and guaranteed allies next to it so it could somehow eer toward CR 2 now? Thats now how any of this should work.

[DireSickFish]

What Demonic Spoon said.

Also you start us off with an example that already has an entire thread dedicated to discussing the one creatures CR problems?

I think we're going to need more to work with if we intend to re-work "most" of the monsters CR. Is there a systemic problem? Are you finding CR's in general to be to high or low? Do you have any more examples we should look at? Are they not lining up with proficiency bonus/AC outlines or are they doing much more/less damage in a round than they should be? Do you think they arn't taking into account special abilities appropriately (ie valuing some to highly and others to low).

Gotta give us a foundation to build this church on mate.

[pwykersotz]

What you have from that first thread is what there is a far as I know.

[stenver]

Gotta give us a foundation to build this church on mate.

I was hoping that somebody has already made the crunch. I didnt expect somebody to start making one because of this thread. For single monsters, I can do the crunch myself. As a DM, I rely on CR system to balance encounters and I was hoping that somebody is way ahead of me.

I have, on the fly, calculated the CR-s of around 5-6 monsters in MM, because I wanted to build custom monsters off the top of them. So far, they have all had invalid CR listed.

[Demonic Spoon]

I was hoping that somebody has already made the crunch. I didnt expect somebody to start making one because of this thread. For single monsters, I can do the crunch myself. As a DM, I rely on CR system to balance encounters and I was hoping that somebody is way ahead of me.

I have, on the fly, calculated the CR-s of around 5-6 monsters in MM, because I wanted to build custom monsters off the top of them. So far, they have all had invalid CR listed.

There is no crunch. By design, there is no way to definitively determine the CR of a monster with math alone. What you see in the back of the DMG is a starting point from which a designer can use intuition and playtesting to determine how strong a monster is.

[KorvinStarmast]

Lets start with this:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?434995-Monster-manual-cult-fanatic-CR-too-high That link, or a reference to that already ongoing discussion, would be very helpful in the opening post. Thank you.

[Gwendol]

I was hoping that somebody has already made the crunch. I didnt expect somebody to start making one because of this thread. For single monsters, I can do the crunch myself. As a DM, I rely on CR system to balance encounters and I was hoping that somebody is way ahead of me.

I have, on the fly, calculated the CR-s of around 5-6 monsters in MM, because I wanted to build custom monsters off the top of them. So far, they have all had invalid CR listed.

Invalid CR seems to be a bit harsh? My guess is that depending on party, DM playstyle, etc, they have to be adjusted up or down a notch, maybe two.

[stenver]

That link, or a reference to that already ongoing discussion, would be very helpful in the opening post. Thank you.

Thanks for the tip, included it :)

[stenver]

There is no crunch. By design, there is no way to definitively determine the CR of a monster with math alone. What you see in the back of the DMG is a starting point from which a designer can use intuition and playtesting to determine how strong a monster is.

Let me rephrase that for you - the designers intuition on a lot of creatures CR was inaccurate in MM. Again, im going to reference the aforementioned link, which I suggest you try and read.

Im not going to argue about this anymore, if you think that numbers are meaningless and its all intuition and playtesting and MM has got it all correct, then I respect your opinion and respectfully disagree with you.

I would appreciate to continue to discuss this matter further with people who do see that there is a problem.

[Kryx]

Cult Fanatic has an offensive CR of 2 and a defensive CR of at the top of CR 1/8, but their attack is much higher so I'd place it at 1/4 for a total CR of 1.125, or 1.

Are their other problems? 1 creature does not spell a system wide problem. And if there is a system wide problem based on that table then that table may be a bit off (I find the defensive HP to be significantly too high for everything in the MM and everything that I've converted).

Plus if the problem is system wide then you have to adjust literally every creature in the MM. It would be easier in that case to adjust the table and adapt your game to the current system than adjust all the MM monsters and all monsters from the campaign books.

Though there are a lot of minor errors like skills or to hit in the MM that I pointed out on the last thread.