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Lolth
2007-05-12, 01:22 AM
Quick and silly question.

Is it possible with RAW to have a fighter use a two-handed weapon and armor spikes as a 2wf attack routine?


Thanks. Attribution/links most appreciated!

Dhavaer
2007-05-12, 01:34 AM
Yes. It's clarified in the FAQ somewhere. You can also use an unarmed strike.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-05-12, 07:19 AM
Yes. It's clarified in the FAQ somewhere. You can also use an unarmed strike.

The FAQ says you can two-weapon fighting with unarmed strike but the rules specificaly say you can't. Or is the FAQ talking about using an unarmed strike as one weapon and a held weapon as another?

I don't know what I'm supposed to trust. If you can two-weapon fighting with unarmed strike then you should be able to use multiweapon fighting since unarmed strike is any part of your body.

Lolzords
2007-05-12, 07:23 AM
The FAQ says you can two-weapon fighting with unarmed strike but the rules specificaly say you can't. Or is the FAQ talking about using an unarmed strike as one weapon and a held weapon as another?

I don't know what I'm supposed to trust. If you can two-weapon fighting with unarmed strike then you should be able to use multiweapon fighting since unarmed strike is any part of your body.

I'd say trust the FAQ, it's probably been written more recently then the rules.

As for the main question, yes. There's nothing to say you can't grapple someone (doing damage from armour) and attack with two light weapons in the same round.

Dhavaer
2007-05-12, 07:27 AM
I don't know what I'm supposed to trust.

Trust Me. Give yourself over to My will...

PinkysBrain
2007-05-12, 07:38 AM
The FAQ says you can two-weapon fighting with unarmed strike but the rules specificaly say you can't.
You are thinking of the monk's unarmed strike, not unarmed strikes in general.

Lolth
2007-05-12, 08:19 AM
To clarify, since there seems to be a bit of confusion (my fault!) can use use a two-handed weapon, like a Greatsword, and armor spikes as a Two-Weapon Fighting combination?

Thanks.

Dhavaer
2007-05-12, 08:25 AM
To clarify, since there seems to be a bit of confusion (my fault!) can use use a two-handed weapon, like a Greatsword, and armor spikes as a Two-Weapon Fighting combination?

Yes. Yes you can.

Gungnir
2007-05-12, 09:18 AM
My fighter is actually about to start doing that himself. I haven't managed to start a fight yet (Damn you, True Neutral! Why won't you get mad at anyone!) it seems like it should be pretty effective.

Matthew
2007-05-12, 10:21 AM
Be careful, though, the FAQ says strange things about it, like the possibility of using the Armour Spikes as the Primary Weapon and Two Handed Weapon as the Off Hand, which raises certain questions about the Strength Damage Bonus Multiplier [Two Handed Off Handed Weapon?]. It works okay the other way round, as silly as it is.

Indon
2007-05-12, 10:24 AM
Be careful, though, the FAQ says strange things about it, like the possibility of using the Armour Spikes as the Primary Weapon and Two Handed Weapon as the Off Hand, which raises certain questions about the Strength Damage Bonus Multiplier [Two Handed Off Hand Weapon?]. It works okay the other way round, as silly as it is.

The strength multipliers seem they'd be the same, but if you don't attack with a light weapon as your off-hand then you get a penalty to attack with both weapons (-4/-4 rather than -2/-2).

Theodoxus
2007-05-12, 10:36 AM
That makes no sense.... I attack with spikes first, so my sword hits at -4, but if I attack with my sword first, my spikes hit at -2.

I guess the premise is, you run into someone and your sword is all bound up overhead and its really hard to step back and take a swing. But if you take a swing, and then run in on someone impaling them on yourself, its relatively easy...

How long are these spikes again? 18 inches (.5m) at least? Otherwise making an attack with them seems really freakin' problematic. You need to bullrush or something to get into the opponents square.

I don't think the people who wrote up such things ever thought it through. Damn roleplayers.

Indon
2007-05-12, 10:51 AM
Well, the light-weapon thing I think is a general principle; you don't fight dagger-and-sword, you fight sword-and-dagger.

Matthew
2007-05-12, 11:05 AM
The Strength Multiplier is in question as far as I can see:

Fighter 5
Primary Attack: Great Sword +3 AB, [1D12 + (Strength Bonus x 1.5)]
Off Hand Attack: Armour Spikes +3 AB, [1D6 + (Strength Bonus x 0.5)]

or

Primary Attack: Armour Spikes +1 AB, [1D6 + (Strength Bonus x 1.0)]
Off Hand Attack: Great Sword +1 AB, [1D12 + (Strength Bonus x ?)]

Is there a clarification somewhere?

It's worth remembering that the Off Hand attacks can take place before the corresponding Iterative attack, so there is no real reason to make the Great Sword Off Hand, unless to reduce Strength Multipliers and Attack Bonuses.

Starbuck_II
2007-05-12, 11:10 AM
The Strength Multiplier is in question as far as I can see:

Fighter 5
Primary Attack: Great Sword +3 AB, [1D12 + (Strength Bonus x 1.5)]
Off Hand Attack: Armour Spikes +3 AB, [1D6 + (Strength Bonus x 0.5)]

or

Primary Attack: Armour Spikes +1 AB, [1D6 + (Strength Bonus x 1.0)]
Off Hand Attack: Great Sword +1 AB, [1D12 + (Strength Bonus x ?)]

Is there a clarification somewhere?

It's worth remembering that the Off Hand attacks can take place before the corresponding Iterative attack, so there is no real reason to make the Great Sword Off Hand, unless to reduce Strength Multipliers and Attack Bonuses.


Greatsword is 2d6 not 1d12.
Offhand greatsword is .5 sxtrength bonus because offhands are always .5.

Seffbasilisk
2007-05-12, 11:13 AM
There's also a feat which allows you after making two successful attacks with an axe to make an attack with your spikes at -5 from your highest AB

Axespike or something.

Threeshades
2007-05-12, 11:14 AM
Greatsword is 2d6 not 1d12.
Offhand greatsword is .5 sxtrength bonus because offhands are always .5.

I always thought armor spikes only work in grapple attacks. this rocks. i think im gonna have a TWFing barbarian with a greataxe ^^

Seffbasilisk
2007-05-12, 11:15 AM
Greatsword is 2d6 not 1d12.
Offhand greatsword is .5 sxtrength bonus because offhands are always .5.

But it would be offhand + hand and a half.

Which takes the 1 and turns it to a .5, then adds another .5 for the offhand being on the weapon.

So full strength bonus to sword if offhand.

Townopolis
2007-05-12, 12:18 PM
I would imagine the offhand attack with spikes to be more like a kick to the groin with your spiked sabaton, or maybe a knee to the groin with spiked greaves.

And armor spikes are now both a grapple enhancer and a light weapon, one of the many hidden changes in the 3.0-3.5 switch IIRC.

Person_Man
2007-05-12, 12:32 PM
Yes, you can use a Two Handed Weapon and Armor Spikes with TWF.

But Armor Spikes are a light weapon, so you can't use Power Attack/Leap Attack with them. So TWF penalties being what they are, you're often lowering your expected damage output. Plus you have to waste a feat on it.

Lolth
2007-05-12, 01:23 PM
Actually, it's for a mounted PC with Combat Reflexes, Close-Quarters Fighting (not always gonna be mounted, after all) and typically a Longsword (for 1/2 hand flexibility) and Buckler. Using the Spikes is a secondary attack when not mounted, basically. It'd be either Longsword in two hands and whale away, or sword and spikes as the situation called for.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-05-12, 01:55 PM
Yes, you can use a Two Handed Weapon and Armor Spikes with TWF.

But Armor Spikes are a light weapon, so you can't use Power Attack/Leap Attack with them. So TWF penalties being what they are, you're often lowering your expected damage output. Plus you have to waste a feat on it.

Since you have to charge with leap attack and you can only make a single attack with a charge this doesn't matter.

Matthew
2007-05-12, 02:22 PM
Greatsword is 2d6 not 1d12.
Offhand greatsword is .5 sxtrength bonus because offhands are always .5.
Yes, true, but hardly the important part of the question. I would like to see where the rules flat out state that a Two Handed Off Hand Attack does not benefit from the Two Handed Multiplier, but does suffer from the Off Hand Multiplier. I have put the question to Wizards a few times, but am yet to get a response. It could be 0.5 or it could 0.75 or it could be 1.0. It could even be 1.5 if the Two Handed benefit over rides the Off Hand penalty, though this last is unlikely. As far as I can see there is no RAW ruling regarding how Two Handed and Off Hand Multipliers interact, they probably were never originally meant to.

Lolth
2007-05-12, 02:36 PM
If I'm not mistaken, the armor spikes can be considered the off-hand attack, and the other weapon would be either 1h or 2h?

JaronK
2007-05-12, 02:44 PM
The FAQ says you can two-weapon fighting with unarmed strike but the rules specificaly say you can't. Or is the FAQ talking about using an unarmed strike as one weapon and a held weapon as another?

I don't know what I'm supposed to trust. If you can two-weapon fighting with unarmed strike then you should be able to use multiweapon fighting since unarmed strike is any part of your body.

Actually the rule against offhand attacks with unarmed strikes is telling you that you can't use two weapon fighting to get an offhand with unarmed strikes if you used any unarmed strikes with your standard attacks. Thus, you can't say "my main hand is my first, my offhand is my knee" or something like that.

You can, however, make an offhand attack with your knee if your main hand attack was with a greatsword.

JaronK

Matthew
2007-05-12, 03:09 PM
If I'm not mistaken, the armor spikes can be considered the off-hand attack, and the other weapon would be either 1h or 2h?
Yes, but according to the FAQ it can also work the other way around. The Armour Spikes can be the Primary Attack and the One Handed or Two Handed Weapon the Off Hand Attack.

JaronK, what rule are you referring to? Isn't that just to do with Monks or something? I thought I read something in the FAQ clearing that up as well... not sure, though.

JaronK
2007-05-12, 03:16 PM
JaronK, what rule are you referring to? Isn't that just to do with Monks or something? I thought I read something in the FAQ clearing that up as well... not sure, though.

It may well be just monks... I'm honestly not sure. I just remember what the ruling was, and I've never seen anyone use non-monks with unarmed strike.

JaronK

Matthew
2007-05-12, 03:26 PM
Okay, given that the rule you have in mind is the one I am think of, this is what the FAQ has to say on the subject.

Dungeons & Dragons FAQ (April, 2007), p. 17.


The description of the flurry of blows ability says
thereís no such thing as a monk attacking with an off-hand
weapon during a flurry of blows. What does that mean,
exactly? Can the monk make off-hand attacks in addition to
flurry attacks?
Actually, the text to which you refer appears in the entry
for unarmed strikes. When a monk uses her unarmed strike
ability, she does not suffer any penalty for an off-hand attack,
even when she has her hands full and attacks with her knees
and elbows, using the flurry of blows ability to make extra
attacks, or both.
The rules donít come right out and say that a monk canít
use an unarmed strike for an off-hand strike (although the exact
wording of the unarmed strike ability suggests otherwise), and
no compelling reason why a monk could not do so exists.
When using an unarmed strike as an off-hand attack, the monk
suffers all the usual attack penalties from two-weapon fighting
(see Table 8Ė10 in the Playerís Handbook) and the monk adds
only half her Strength bonus (if any) to damage if the off-hand
unarmed strike hits.
To add an off-hand attack to a flurry of blows, stack
whatever two-weapon penalty the monk has with the penalty (if
any) from the flurry. Attacks from the flurry have the monkís
full damage bonus from Strength, but the off-hand attack gains
only half Strength bonus to damage. If the off-hand attack is a
weapon, that weapon isnít available for use in the flurry (if it
can be used in a flurry at all, see the previous question). For
example, a 4th-level monk with the Two-Weapon Fighting feat
and a Strength score of 14 decides to use a flurry of blows and
decides to throw in an off-hand attack as well. The monk has a
base attack bonus of +3 and a +2 Strength bonus. With a flurry,
the character can make two attacks, each at +3 (base +3, Ė2
flurry, +2 Strength). An unarmed strike is a light weapon, so
the monk suffers an additional Ė2 penalty for both the flurry
and the off-hand attack, and the monk makes three attacks,
each at an attack bonus of +1. The two attacks from the flurry
are primary attacks and add the monkís full Strength bonus to
damage of +2. The single off-hand attack adds half the monkís
Strength bonus to damage (+1).
If the monk in our example has two sais to use with the
flurry, plus the off-hand attack, she can use both in the flurry
(in which case she must make the off-hand attack with an
unarmed strike) or one sai for the off-hand attack and one with
the flurry. The sai used in the off-hand attack is not available
for the flurry and vice versa.

Starbuck_II
2007-05-12, 03:50 PM
Yes, true, but hardly the important part of the question. I would like to see where the rules flat out state that a Two Handed Off Hand Attack does not benefit from the Two Handed Multiplier, but does suffer from the Off Hand Multiplier. I have put the question to Wizards a few times, but am yet to get a response. It could be 0.5 or it could 0.75 or it could be 1.0. It could even be 1.5 if the Two Handed benefit over rides the Off Hand penalty, though this last is unlikely. As far as I can see there is no RAW ruling regarding how Two Handed and Off Hand Multipliers interact, they probably were never originally meant to.

A Specific example might be shields: even if used two handed they are offhand attacks (since they always offhand).

But than the fact that you csn't ever use a shield bash as non-offhand if wacky in and of itself.

Matthew
2007-05-12, 03:55 PM
Nope. The FAQ clears that misconception up also:

Dungeons & Dragons FAQ (April, 2007), pp. 42-3.


Can a character make a shield bash attack using the
shield as a primary weapon or can it be used only as an offhand
weapon?
While the rules describe a shield bash as an off-hand
weapon, thatís simply an assumption (that your primary hand is
holding a weapon). Thereís nothing stopping you from
declaring your shield bash as your primary weapon. Of course,
that means that any attack you make with your other hand
becomes a secondary weapon.

Lolth
2007-05-12, 04:16 PM
So if you used a weapon two-handed as your primary, and armor spikes as your secondary (off-hand) then you'd get Str x 1.5 for the two-handed and Str x 0.5 for the off-handed spikes?

Matthew
2007-05-12, 04:24 PM
Yes, that appears to be what the FAQ is saying. However, in some cases your Character is even better off with a Two Handed Weapon and Improved Unarmed Strike, as for some bizzare reason Unarmed Strikes can benefit from Power Attack, but Armour Spikes do not. In effect, he would get would get:

Primay Attack (Great Sword): [2D6 + (Strength Bonus x 1.5) + (2:1 Power Attack Bonus)]
Off Hand Attack (Unarmed Strike): [1D3 + (Strength Bonus x 0.5) + (1:1 Power Attack Bonus)]

However, the key benefit of Armour Spikes is that they can be enchanted, whilst you need to persuade your DM to allow the enchanting of a Knee Pad or somesuch thing (as both hands are occupied, so your Character cannot use an Enchanted Gauntlet).

Note, your Character can also use Weapon and Shield in conjunction with Two Weapon Fighting and not attack with the Shield, but rather with an Unarmed Strike...

Person_Man
2007-05-12, 11:51 PM
Since you have to charge with leap attack and you can only make a single attack with a charge this doesn't matter.

Really? Because I can think of at least 30 different ways to get multiple attacks on a charge. Here's one list (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=5305146#post5305146). And that list is 3 years out of date. Honestly, there's no reason for a melee build not to get 2+ attacks on a charge.

PinkysBrain
2007-05-13, 01:28 AM
But Armor Spikes are a light weapon, so you can't use Power Attack/Leap Attack with them. So TWF penalties being what they are, you're often lowering your expected damage output. Plus you have to waste a feat on it.
For a -2 to attack you can make it a one handed weapon, just put large armor spikes on your armor (assuming you are medium). Don't ask me what that would look like ;)