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7th son of sons
2015-09-18, 01:07 AM
Mythos Discussion Thread I (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?323694-Mythos-Inspired-Homebrew-Discussion)
Mythos Discussion Thread II (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?364949-Mythos-Homebrew-Discussion-II-Where-Simplicity-Goes-to-Die)


http://i.imgur.com/cYmyH06.jpg

"'I'm me', he says. It must be nice, being real. A fake like me could never get away with saying that. That's right, I'm a phony! The way I look, the way I feel, everything! I thought by finding some new strength I could be someone, someone who's not you! But nothing changes... I'm still just empty! Everything about me is borrowed. As long as you're around, I'll never be anything better than a shadow!" ~Riku-Replica, Kingdom Hearts: Chain of Memories

The Mythic Clone

Any artist will tell you that all works are derivative. Paintings draw on the styles of older artists, books borrow from existing characters and archetypes, and music takes notes from epics long past. Something truly original, wholly pure and fresh and new is a rarity in this day and age, to be commended and borrowed from. It is the nature of things. That which is good lives to pass on its makeup to the future, while that which is less desirable withers and dies, taking its weakness with it. But this is not a new development.

It came about in the unformed barren nothing and everything that would become the world. A fledgling creation was born to the world, but with naught to distinguish itself. It had no name, no purpose, no drive, and no goals. It was an existence unfettered by the chains of destiny and fate, but lacking a role to play in the stories to come. And its’ first though was not one of inadequacy, but of Want. Wanting to know why it was, what it was, what it could be.

It was a being of desire. Not of selfish desires, or even selfless desires, but of the desire simply to be. It wished for a name to call itself, a goal to follow, an identity of its own. It had nothing, and wanted for much. So it journeyed, crossing the untamed and unworked lands and seas and chaos that would become the world. Until it crossed its first other thing, the first thing it could identify to be not itself. Another creature, crashing through the newborn reality with reckless abandon, unchained and unkempt. a “Titan”. How it knew this, or where it learned this, it could not say, but a simple glance overwhelmed the wanting creature with hope and desire. A single thought flooded its entirety.

“I Wish To Be As He”

And it did. His form warped and twisted. His mind broke and rebuilt. A name, a goal, a place in the cosmology of things undone, all came to him in a flash of brilliance.Where once he was meek, he became angry. Where once he was unsure, he was convicted. When he had been weak, he became strong. But it was not enough. Its cursory understanding of what was and what it could be were not enough to get the full picture. It was nearly as strong and almost as angry as its origin, but its conviction was a fraction of his. And when he was caged and chained and pulled away by another, he looked upon the face of his origins jailor.

“I Wish To Be As She”

And so he did. Where he had been angry, he became wise. Where he once had been strong, he became powerful. But again, his conviction was not as hers. He was a pale shade of his origin, and would be with each story he learned of. And he became many such stories, from the grandiosity of The Conqueror, to the bleakness of the All-Shadow, the graciousness of Harmony, and even the Blood Chief and The Crawling Queen of Bone. And, in this way, it became known, but it was not for what it became, but what it had begun as. And it was there that it earned a name, and a fate, of its own: Emulation.

No legend wished for Emulation, but many had his attention at one point or another. In a meeting unseen since, the hands of creations and architects of the universe, discussed what to do with a creation previously unconceived. Whosoever held Emulations attention had their story strengthened, but diluted. Absolute conviction was necessary to tell their stories. And they called for its presence, all at once, and Emulation came across a dilemma. So many stories, identities that demanded his attention, his presence, and overwhelming amount of choice, something the titan did not know. And in his indecision, he found a true purpose, and broke. He became a shred of each story, not as strong or wise or angry or frightening or weak as any other titan, but a beast in his own right. This conglomerate of titans and stories and legends with all too many purposes and dreams hid himself from the others, for fear of losing it's all consciousness. It fled to the betwixt, where it would remain, unwilling to change and become a pale imitation again.

But such a soul cannot remain untapped forever. Such a story cannot exist without being told, without some to follow its path. Nature, artists, authors, teachers, students, many emulate others, borrowing various teachings and fusing them into their own styles. These are not the children of Emulation. Rather, the exact duplicates, reproductions, and copies of the world bear his legacy, the curse to be an imitation, but the possibility to be so much more.

NEW FEAT: Multifaceted Duplicate Legacy
Prerequisites: Clone

For the purposes of this feat, a clone is copy of an existing creature, genetically or otherwise. This includes, but is not limited to: The products of the “Clone”, “Simulacrum”, or “Ice Assassin” spells, A creature created via “Incontemporary Roiling Flesh-Spawn Creation”, the product of asexual reproduction, scientific or psionic experimentation, or even the younger of a set of twins. Other examples are certainly present in certain settings and stories, and should be brought up with your DM if they qualify.

You free yourself from the will of your “Original”, even if it is only in minor ways. If a clause existed that said you cannot grow stronger, or some equivalent, (as in the Simulacrum spell), you ignore it. If you had previously been Inert (as in the Clone spell), you become a living creature with a soul of your own. If you were destined for a certain path (As per the “Incontemporary Roiling Flesh-Spawn Creation” Mythos), you specifically ignore it. In short, any effect that prevents you from fully becoming your own creature, you ignore. Extrapolate as necessary. You also have a one time chance to switch your gender, though the physical differences are minor.

You may change any number of your class levels into levels of a Mythos Class. If you did, choose one Mythos-granting class that you have levels in. You may treat the following Mythos as if they belonged to that class.

EXCEPTIONAL MYTHOS

Adaptable Split-Soul Resonance
Prerequisites: -

Not all clones and duplications are made with perfect semblance of emotional control. You are one of the lucky ones to have been made with a fully functional mind for that sort of thing. But in the back of your head, a certain drive, a certain feeling, attracts your attention more than the others.

As a full round action, you may enter into a “Trance”. a state of exceptional closeness to a single emotion, described in the basic manifestations. You may remain in such a state for one hour per class level, before you must rest 8 hours to realign your mind. Ending this Trance is a full round action.

Basic

End Inducing Trance: You become overwhelmed with inevitability and somberness, gaining a +2 to intelligence and a -2 to Charisma. You are immune to any Morale effects. You gain a +5 bonus to knowledge and sense motive checks, and can make any knowledge checks untrained. You take a penalty to your armor class when below half health equal to half your class level.

Fear Inducing Trance: You become overwhelmed with terror and paranoia, granting a +2 to Dexterity and a -2 to Strength. You gain ten feet of bonus movement speed, and a bonus to your armor class against Attacks of Opportunity from movement or when using the total defense option equal to half your class level. You gain a +5 bonus to Hide, Intimidate, and Move Silent checks, and cannot be panicked. You take a penalty equal to half your class levels on saves against fear effects, and any immunity you had to them is suppressed.

Fury Inducing Trance: You become overwhelmed with anger and aggression, granting a +2 to strength and a -2 to Wisdom. You gain a bonus to attack rolls made against creatures who have damaged you equal to half your class level. You gain a +5 bonus to Climb, Jump, and Swim checks, and gain Improved Unarmed Strikes while in this trance. You take a penalty equal to half your class levels on all intelligence, wisdom, and charisma checks and skill checks, except for spot, listen, and intimidate.

Joy Inducing Trance: You become overwhelmed with happiness and cheer, granting a +2 to charisma and a -2 to intelligence. You and allies within 30 feet no longer automatically fail saving throws on a 1, and you grant a +5 morale bonus to saves against emotion based effects. You gain a +5 bonus to Diplomacy, Gather Information, and Charisma ability checks, and morale bonuses and penalties generated by others have their effects improved by 1 on you. Your good nature blinds you to the truth, granting you a penalty to checks against being lied to or tricked equal to half your class level.

Pain Inducing Trance You become overwhelmed with agony and torment, granting a +2 to Constitution and a -2 to dexterity. You gain damage reduction equal to half your class level over magic and one damage type (bludgeoning, slashing, or piercing). You gain a +5 Bonus to Handle Animal, Ride, and saves against fatigue and exhaustion. While in your Pain Inducing Trance, you are immune to non-magical disease and poisons. You take a penalty equal to half your class level on all strength and dexterity checks and skill checks, and are unable to make concentration checks.

Sorrow Inducing Trance: You become overwhelmed with sadness and morosity, granting a +2 to wisdom and a -2 to strength. You gain remarkable insight in your grief, allowing you to affect incorporeal creatures as though they were corporeal, and to heal both from positive and negative energy. You gain a +5 bonus to spot and listen checks, and may take 10 on any skill check, even when stress or distractions would prevent you from doing so. You restrain yourself in your willingness to send living creatures to the afterlife, taking a penalty equal to half your class levels on attack and damage rolls against intelligent living creatures.

Advanced

Deep Seated Mood-Swing Acceptance: You gain an additional basic manifestation. You may only be in one trance at a time, and time spent in either is cumultive to the total amount of time you may spend tranced.

Overriding Societal Limitations: The bonuses, and penalties, granted to your ability scores by being in a trance increase by two.

Inborn Teamwork-Advocating Drive
Prerequisites: -

As far as you’ve come in your struggle to come into your own, the fact that you are a copy is something that will never quite leave you. However, your natural empathy and understanding of working together can prove most efficient, even on the battlefield.

Increase the benefits you gain, and grant, for flanking and aiding another by 2. When flanking with an ally against a creature of your size or smaller, you and the character you are flanking with deal 1d6 points of bonus precision damage. If the flanked creature does something to provoke an attack of opportunity from one of you, you both may make the attack. If you are a part of a surprise round, you may declare one of your allies who may not act to be in the surprise round as an immediate action.

Lastly, if an adjacent ally charges a creature, you may, as an immediate action, charge that same creature as well, assuming such movement is possible. You both are considered to be flanking the intended target for purposes of your attack rolls against that creature. This counts as an attack or opportunity.

Origin Improving Gene Therapy
Prerequisites: -

Not all clones are exact replicas. In fact, many are tweaked in very minute ways at the basest level during their creation. it may go unnoticed for years, but eventually, whatever genetic advantages were put into you come to full bloom, becoming the ideal specimen of your people.

You gain a +2 bonus to any ability scores modified by your race (I.E: A Dwarf would gain +2 Constitution AND +2 Charisma). Any racial bonuses to skill checks or saving throws doubles. You gain one Racial feat you meet the prerequisites for, even those that can be taken only at first level. Any special senses granted by your race (typically darkvision or low light vision) doubles as well.

You gain a bonus equal to your class level on charisma-based skills checks directed towards members of your race. Finally, you always breed true. An Elvish Simulacrum Anakitos with this mythos who mates with a Gold Dragon will produce a full Elf child. Half-Elves and Half-Orcs (and similar half-races) produce children of either their parentages.

Two-Faced Identity Difference
Prerequisites: -

You are a clone. Somewhere in the world, there is an exact duplicate of you on the physical, genetic, and astral levels. And while such an idea may be horrifying to others, to you, it is another extension of who you are. A glimpse of what you could have been, or could be. And your “Original” can be a potent ally, even if it all to unaware of it.

You gain a +20 bonus on Bluff and Disguise checks made to convince others that you are your original. Onlookers are treated as one step less familiar with the source of the disguise than they actually are, just because of how uncanny the resemblance between the two of you are.

Any effect that is based on your name, your alignment,or used to glean information from or about you (Such as Scry or Zone of Truth) that you successfully save against, you may as though you were your original. Even if these spells do not normally have a save, a special exception is made for you, using the usual formula for calculating saves. If he saves against Scry, he may refract the scrying eyes to his original, acting as though he possessed a body part of the scrying target, and forcing the save on them.

As an example, a Chaotic Good Human Clone Dinyomi based on a Lawful Evil Human Necromancer sneaking into his master's lair and being questioned by his minions may act as though he was Lawful Evil when he successfully saves against Detect Alignment, and Undead when he saves against Detect Undead.

FANTASTIC MYTHOS

Dualistic Existence Over-Channeling
Prerequisite:One Mythos granted by The “Multifaceted Duplicate Legacy” Feat, Must be a living creature

Cloning has a curious effect on the soul. One would think that, being a reproduction of an existing creature, one's’ soul would be far weaker. In fact, the opposite is true. A clone carries all of itself and its original within its genetic code. Even if you never knew your progenitor, their experiences and their being are with you as well. With a breath, you take in the souls of what you could be and what you are and what you were, and expel weakness, become an ideal form of what you could be.

Over the next 24 hours, you grow a second heart, and your internal structure shifts to take advantage of the new capacity. First, your body become highly efficient in distributing heat, allowing you to exist comfortably in temperatures between -50 and 140 degrees fahrenheit. Secondly, you tire less easily, taking no penalties for being Fatigued, and reducing the ability penalties for being Exhausted by 4. Your movement speed is not reduced by being Exhausted, but you may not run or charge. Thirdly, your muscles build and function at greater efficiency, increasing your base Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution by 2, and your brain is capable of maintaining stints of peak activity for longer, effectively increasing your base Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma by 2. Lastly, your inner restructuring, incidentally, aids you in your ability to survive even the most grievous of wounds, granting you 25% Fortification, which stacks with existing forms of Fortification.

Experience-Echoing Equivalent Malleability
Prerequisites: One Mythos granted by the “Multifaceted Duplicate Legacy” feat

At your basest level, discounting your goals, dreams, personality, and methodology, you ARE your progenitor. You carry the same true name, the same DNA, an identical body and identical predilections in the threads of fate. You and they are weaved together into the same story, even if you never meet. You are an echo of they. The true self, in a way. You can feel the inclinations that come from they who came before, and by attuning yourself to them, you may pick up their talents.

You gain a bonus feat and skill trick. These feats and skill tricks are chosen from any feat that your original possesses, or ever did possess (in the case they retrained them or lost them, somehow). Whenever you or your original levels up or gains a new feat, you may change the feat and skill trick granted by this mythos.

You also gain all the class features of your originals first class level, including their spellcasting, maneuver usage, or whatever else have they. If you cast a spell, initiate a maneuver, or utilize an invocation that your original knows, you can use their casting/initiator level in place of your own, if theirs would be greater.

LEGENDARY MYTHOS

“I Am We”
Prerequisites: Two Mythos granted by the “Multifaceted Duplicate Legacy” feat

The Legend of Emulation extends beyond what is written. Emulation is the story of a hundred would-be Titans, each seeking to replicate a greater power, and coming up short. Each attempting to climb upon the shoulders of others, and never quite reaching the summit. So what made Emulation different? What about it made it so different than all those who followed its lead? With each copy, the integrity of the work wanes, but so knowledgeable are you in what it means to be a copy, that its secrets open to you.

With a full hour of meditation, you pull together your own experiences as a facsimile, your drive as a copy, your motivations as a replication, and with a single, apostate realization, it comes to you, and you banish any insecurities you had in your purpose on this world. With your next exhalation, you create that which you are: A reproduction. A clone to call your very own.

Your clone is identical to you in every physical and genetic way but is somewhat lacking in your areas of expertise.

It possesses the same class levels as you, though they are one level lower, and the same base ability scores as well (That is to say, ability scores discounting bonuses from items, mythos, wishes, etc). It is born with the same equipment as you, but only in appearance. Your clone has only half your maximum hit points, and none of its feat or mythos slots expended. With training of (4 - Your clones intelligence modifier, minimum 1) hours it can be taught any feat or mythos that you know and that it qualifies for, and with (12 - your clones intelligence modifier, minimum 3) hours it can be taught a feat or mythos possessed by one of your allies, assuming they qualify. Fantastic Mythos takes twice as long, and Legendary Mythos take four times longer than that.

One exception to the above is that your clone automatically possesses “Multifaceted Duplicate Legacy” feat and one mythos granted by it. Your clone, being a reproduction of a reproduction, cannot change its class levels or utilize Multifaceted Duplicate Legacy to break the limitations set by this mythos. (Yes, this supersedes the above description saying you ignore such clauses, up until such a point that it does not)

Your clones base attack bonus is considered five less than your own, it can only learn mythos of one "grade" lower than you, and it cannot have more than (your highest skill total - 5) ranks put into a single skill.

At level 16, you can create an additional clone in this way, and at level 19, you may create a third. Your clones cannot learn "I Am We" Until you learn Exalted Mythos.

khadgar567
2015-09-18, 02:04 AM
seven can you answer this question honestly. Did you watch kamen rider drive and decide to make roidmude as mythos race because the first exepcional mytos smells to close to roidmudes concept of evolotion?

7th son of sons
2015-09-18, 02:07 AM
seven can you answer this question honestly. Did you watch kamen rider drive and decide to make roidmude as mythos race because the first exepcional mytos smells to close to roidmudes concept of evolotion?

A combination of Kamen Rider, Metal Gear Solid 3, and Jimmy Neutron made the first mythos.

Primal Fury
2015-09-18, 06:03 AM
Wait... This means I can... Thank you very much 7th Son Of Sons. :smallamused:

GreaserFish
2015-09-18, 11:33 AM
Wouldn't the clones from "I Am We" be able to ignore the restrictions on their abilities by virtue of being clones?

7th son of sons
2015-09-18, 01:49 PM
Wouldn't the clones from "I Am We" be able to ignore the restrictions on their abilities by virtue of being clones?

That's... a really good point, actually. Applying solutions now.


Wait... This means I can... Thank you very much 7th Son Of Sons.:smallamused:

I don't know what you're planning, but I like it.

Amnoriath
2015-09-20, 08:50 AM
Everything is great until you get to Experience Echoing Equivalent Malleability. This ability makes a double character that could very well break into high level spell, powers,..etc way before the game ever intended to happen. Ultimately this could in every way be better than the Reth Dekala's capstone mythos because it can take it and more. If used with the Legendary Mythos and some key consciousness swapping mythos you can create an exponentially larger curve and pool of mythos, powers..etc that is almost as bad as Pun-Pun.

7th son of sons
2015-09-20, 09:55 AM
Everything is great until you get to Experience Echoing Equivalent Malleability. This ability makes a double character that could very well break into high level spell, powers,..etc way before the game ever intended to happen. Ultimately this could in every way be better than the Reth Dekala's capstone mythos because it can take it and more. If used with the Legendary Mythos and some key consciousness swapping mythos you can create an exponentially larger curve and pool of mythos, powers..etc that is almost as bad as Pun-Pun.

I'm not sure I understand. I'm not exactly Mr. Good-At-This-Game, but Experience-Echoing Equivalent Malleability only gives you access to level one spellcasting or level one power manifestation. You have no high level spell slots or power... things. Also, what is a conciousness swapping mythos? I don't think I've yet to see that. Can you please explain what you mean?

Amnoriath
2015-09-20, 11:11 AM
I'm not sure I understand. I'm not exactly Mr. Good-At-This-Game, but Experience-Echoing Equivalent Malleability only gives you access to level one spellcasting or level one power manifestation. You have no high level spell slots or power... things. Also, what is a conciousness swapping mythos? I don't think I've yet to see that. Can you please explain what you mean?

1. Admittedly I didn't see the word first, but it could have been explained better. So, sorry about that, but it also doesn't change some issues. Much of what could be considered a clone is considered to be at half level or some kind of partial feature mix up. This can put their levels at equivalent of the original on anything they have that is the originals. So, if he is a higher level caster than anyone else in the party you are now higher level than they are. This is much worse with psionics because manifester levels increase how much investment you can put into powers.
2. While Xefas stayed away from it some others do have some kind of mind projection.

7th son of sons
2015-09-20, 11:24 AM
1. Admittedly I didn't see the word first, but it could have been explained better. So, sorry about that, but it also doesn't change some issues. Much of what could be considered a clone is considered to be at half level or some kind of partial feature mix up. This can put their levels at equivalent of the original on anything they have that is the originals. So, if he is a higher level caster than anyone else in the party you are now higher level than they are. This is much worse with psionics because manifester levels increase how much investment you can put into powers.
2. While Xefas stayed away from it some others do have some kind of mind projection.

I'm... still not sure what you mean. Maybe I messed up in explaining clones, or maybe I just don't understand what they are myself, I'm not sure.

But, as an example, let's say an Elven Generalist Wizard, let's say of 18th level, casts the Clone Spell. I, his inert clone, am given access to Multifaceted Duplicate Legacy, because the plot demanded it. Thanks to that feat, I trade in 7 levels of Wizard for 7 levels of Kathados (the minimum needed to pick up Fantastic Mythos), and become a Clone Elf Generalist Wizard 11/Kathados 7. Even if I pick up Experience-Echoing Equivalent Malleability, I am only able to cast spells as a 12th level wizard, while my original is 18th level. While, yes, you may be the highest level caster in your party, in this case that would only be because no one else played a full-caster class. In fact, at that point, I would be comparable to a Bard as far as my casting ability goes. Using his caster level only applies to the effects of spells based on them, like Fireball and the like. Am I still missing something?

As for Psionics, yeah, you've got a good point as for how Manifestor level opperates differently VS caster level.

Amnoriath
2015-09-20, 11:49 AM
I'm... still not sure what you mean. Maybe I messed up in explaining clones, or maybe I just don't understand what they are myself, I'm not sure.

But, as an example, let's say an Elven Generalist Wizard, let's say of 18th level, casts the Clone Spell. I, his inert clone, am given access to Multifaceted Duplicate Legacy, because the plot demanded it. Thanks to that feat, I trade in 7 levels of Wizard for 7 levels of Kathados (the minimum needed to pick up Fantastic Mythos), and become a Clone Elf Generalist Wizard 11/Kathados 7. Even if I pick up Experience-Echoing Equivalent Malleability, I am only able to cast spells as a 12th level wizard, while my original is 18th level. While, yes, you may be the highest level caster in your party, in this case that would only be because no one else played a full-caster class. In fact, at that point, I would be comparable to a Bard as far as my casting ability goes. Using his caster level only applies to the effects of spells based on them, like Fireball and the like. Am I still missing something?

As for Psionics, yeah, you've got a good point as for how Manifestor level opperates differently VS caster level.

That isn't how it works. You have a caster level of 18 because your original does and it specifically details this. "If you cast a spell, initiate a maneuver, utilize an invocation, etc, that your original knows, you can use their casting/initiator level in place of your own, if theirs would be greater." Remember caster, initiator..etc level is different from spell, maneuver..etc level. You may not cast their level of spells..etc but what you do know of the original's is just as strong as them.

7th son of sons
2015-09-20, 12:52 PM
That isn't how it works. You have a caster level of 18 because your original does and it specifically details this. "If you cast a spell, initiate a maneuver, utilize an invocation, etc, that your original knows, you can use their casting/initiator level in place of your own, if theirs would be greater." Remember caster, initiator..etc level is different from spell, maneuver..etc level. You may not cast their level of spells..etc but what you do know of the original's is just as strong as them.

Maybe I really AM missing something, but is Caster/Manifester/Initiator Level 20 (sometimes) on an actual Caster/Manifester/Initiator of 13(16 for IL) Effective Level (at most, pre-epics), really so good that it's game breaking? It's the equivalent of taking Practiced Caster twice.

EdroGrimshell
2015-09-21, 01:33 AM
Maybe I really AM missing something, but is Caster/Manifester/Initiator Level 20 (sometimes) on an actual Caster/Manifester/Initiator of 13(16 for IL) Effective Level (at most, pre-epics), really so good that it's game breaking? It's the equivalent of taking Practiced Caster twice.

Not at all. I've done this, it means next to nothing in the long run.

Amnoriath
2015-09-21, 04:52 PM
Maybe I really AM missing something, but is Caster/Manifester/Initiator Level 20 (sometimes) on an actual Caster/Manifester/Initiator of 13(16 for IL) Effective Level (at most, pre-epics), really so good that it's game breaking? It's the equivalent of taking Practiced Caster twice.

Caster level is the most mild since lower level spells cap caster level most of the time for increased effect, however the others pose problems. I have talked about manifester level before but Initiator levels are rarely capped. The real danger though is binding as binding is a supernatural act in and of itself. As such the language there can treat binding as the original's act allowing you to bind high level vestiges with great success. Additionally binding like the mythos system can be a plethora of passive bonus or other class features getting much more powerful versions well ahead of the curve.

7th son of sons
2015-09-21, 05:07 PM
Caster level is the most mild since lower level spells cap caster level most of the time for increased effect, however the others pose problems. I have talked about manifester level before but Initiator levels are rarely capped. The real danger though is binding as binding is a supernatural act in and of itself. As such the language there can treat binding as the original's act allowing you to bind high level vestiges with great success. Additionally binding like the mythos system can be a plethora of passive bonus or other class features getting much more powerful versions well ahead of the curve.

I don't really know how you would rule someone binding a vestige that someone else "knows", but I guess in the situation that you figured something out, it would be problematic. The language now specifically only effects spells cast, maneuvers initiated, and invocations invoked. Caster Level is mild, most maneuvers don't scale with level very well, and neither do invocations.

Amnoriath
2015-09-21, 05:13 PM
I don't really know how you would rule someone binding a vestige that someone else "knows", but I guess in the situation that you figured something out, it would be problematic. The language now specifically only effects spells cast, maneuvers initiated, and invocations invoked. Caster Level is mild, most maneuvers don't scale with level very well, and neither do invocations.

The Binder doesn't have a Vestiges Known table. It can summon any of them up to its maximum as long as their binder level is high enough. Though the changes are fair enough.

Fizban
2015-09-22, 09:10 AM
I have no idea who that is in the middle, but if you want more ideas I'd add Zidane Tribal (or his enemy Kuja) from FF9, the FF game that has Trance as it's hero mode mechanic.

In I Am We, I'd extend: "(Yes, this supersedes the above description saying you ignore such clauses, unless/until it doesn't.)" Since the feat is granted by plot whenever the DM says so and of course the clones of an independent clone will do that. Well the point is that the fundamental assumption is this limited clone you can make is under the player's control and thus the player can't go declaring it's independence, though there's nothing firmly stating your level of control actually so pointing this out sounds awkward.

7th son of sons
2015-09-22, 02:20 PM
I have no idea who that is in the middle, but if you want more ideas I'd add Zidane Tribal (or his enemy Kuja) from FF9, the FF game that has Trance as it's hero mode mechanic.

In I Am We, I'd extend: "(Yes, this supersedes the above description saying you ignore such clauses, unless/until it doesn't.)" Since the feat is granted by plot whenever the DM says so and of course the clones of an independent clone will do that. Well the point is that the fundamental assumption is this limited clone you can make is under the player's control and thus the player can't go declaring it's independence, though there's nothing firmly stating your level of control actually so pointing this out sounds awkward.

The lady in the middle is Madeline Pryor, a clone of Gene Grey who became a supervillain upon learning she was just that (among other things). Zidane was on the list of candidates for the banner (FF9 is my favorite in the series), as were Dani Phantom (Danny Phantom), X-23 (Marvel), Cammy (Street Fighter), Kula Diamond (King of Fighters), Any of the Radio Noise Sisters (A Certain Magical Index), Mileena (Mortal Kombat) (Lot of girl clones, actually), Black Zero (Megaman X2), Dark Pit (KI: Uprising), Judge Dread, Red Arrow (Young Justice), and any of the Fett Clones (Star Wars 2). The only one that was guaranteed was Old Snake.

I do like adding on the very vague but usable clause you bring up though, consider it added!

Fizban
2015-09-24, 09:28 AM
FF9 was my first, and come to think of it the only story heavy one I've actually properly finished. Until such a point that is does not is perfect, nicely done.