10th Level Spellcasting

[Pyon]

So, this is not something that I need answered fast but it's something that has been on my head. I'm the kind of person that loves over the topness. I love destroying and making universes, I love the fate of the universe and reality itself being under the control of my character. So I wanted to give spell casters a 10th level spell in my campaign. When we get to that point, they will be fighting several gods at once so the spell will have uses. Plus, the current party only has spell casters (a party made of a Sorcerer, a Cleric and a Paladin) so martial characters won't feel left out. And yes, the Paladin will also get his own version of a 10th level spell.

So what I wanted to know is, how would you balance it? So far I have a spell concept for the sorcerer who is a cold dragon sorcerer. The ability to summon a huge glacier to impale a single target, deal piercing damage. If the enemy fails a save, they get impaled on the glacier and their speed is reduced to 0. The glacier then stays and deals constant cold damage every turn.

So my thoughts on these spells are not only how to balance them, but also how to make them the coolest things ever. So let's go, let your over the topness galaxy destruction run free.

[Tenmujiin]

I'd stay away from HP damage, the spell you suggested honestly sounds about on-par with meteor swarm or storm of vengance.

For a spell to be above 9th level it needs to be stronger than wish and foresight (though it should probably be less versatile, more specific). The spell should probably be highly specific to the character so without some more information I don't have any suggestions.

[TopCheese]

So, this is not something that I need answered fast but it's something that has been on my head. I'm the kind of person that loves over the topness. I love destroying and making universes, I love the fate of the universe and reality itself being under the control of my character. So I wanted to give spell casters a 10th level spell in my campaign. When we get to that point, they will be fighting several gods at once so the spell will have uses. Plus, the current party only has spell casters (a party made of a Sorcerer, a Cleric and a Paladin) so martial characters won't feel left out. And yes, the Paladin will also get his own version of a 10th level spell.

So what I wanted to know is, how would you balance it? So far I have a spell concept for the sorcerer who is a cold dragon sorcerer. The ability to summon a huge glacier to impale a single target, deal piercing damage. If the enemy fails a save, they get impaled on the glacier and their speed is reduced to 0. The glacier then stays and deals constant cold damage every turn.

So my thoughts on these spells are not only how to balance them, but also how to make them the coolest things ever. So let's go, let your over the topness galaxy destruction run free.

Balance doesn't exist at that level. It's like saying you want to drive a nascarr but you can only use a Ford Pinto. It just doesn't compute.

[Cybren]

So, this is not something that I need answered fast but it's something that has been on my head. I'm the kind of person that loves over the topness. I love destroying and making universes, I love the fate of the universe and reality itself being under the control of my character. So I wanted to give spell casters a 10th level spell in my campaign. When we get to that point, they will be fighting several gods at once so the spell will have uses. Plus, the current party only has spell casters (a party made of a Sorcerer, a Cleric and a Paladin) so martial characters won't feel left out. And yes, the Paladin will also get his own version of a 10th level spell.

So what I wanted to know is, how would you balance it? So far I have a spell concept for the sorcerer who is a cold dragon sorcerer. The ability to summon a huge glacier to impale a single target, deal piercing damage. If the enemy fails a save, they get impaled on the glacier and their speed is reduced to 0. The glacier then stays and deals constant cold damage every turn.

So my thoughts on these spells are not only how to balance them, but also how to make them the coolest things ever. So let's go, let your over the topness galaxy destruction run free.
I don't see the point in trying to balance them. 9th level spells are barely 'balanced' in the abstract sense.

10th level spells in D&D tended to be big scale things and not always small unit skirmish appropriate. Things like "flip this mountain upside down and suspend it in the air 'permanently'". 11th level spells would do things like shut off entire crystal spheres (re: solar systems) from outside contact. 12th level spells might just make you a god.

ideas: Mind control all dragons (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0190374/), Nuke it (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsar_Bomba), kill everyone a plane of existence (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deplorable_Word), or Summon the most deadly creature in the multiverse (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fo45o69HaKI).

[JackPhoenix]

Or take an inspiration from 3.5's Epic Spells: http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/epicSpells.htm

[TopCheese]

Or take an inspiration from 3.5's Epic Spells: http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/epicSpells.htm

I was always a fan of "Nail to the Sky" Or whatever it's called.

What's fun is specifically making your enemy immune to the damage and then using that on them... They get stuck in orbit.

We did that to a god, became a very mini second sun, kinda screwed over the planet so we had to find a way to fix it while leaving the God there.

[Pyon]

When I say balance, I mean more in the sense of "How often should this spell be able to be cast, what are the limits". I don't want it to be cast every encounter, just when fighting the pantheon of gods.

[rollingForInit]

When I say balance, I mean more in the sense of "How often should this spell be able to be cast, what are the limits". I don't want it to be cast every encounter, just when fighting the pantheon of gods.

They are more rituals than spells. They require extremely exenspive and/or hard to get components. They take hours, maybe even days, to prepare. After that, they're granted a temporary 10th level slot that can be used to unleash the energy they have prepared.

If you use rare components, you, as the DM, will control how often it can be cast.

[erradin]

If the concern is balancing the spells, perhaps they require more energy than a living body can readily contain. I like the previously mentioned idea of rare components. Maybe the spell requires the literal blood of a god as a material component. They can use blood from wounded gods to cast the spells in combat. When they kill the gods/defeat them/ whatever, maybe you can give them a chance to walk away with a few samples of blood, so that they can cast them a very restricted number of times- potentially running out of charges forever if they use the last sample.

Maybe, later on in the campaign, some god will reward them with a few drops of blood in exchange for a major favor, or they kill a corrupted god and its blood produces unpredictably twisted versions of their spells if they try to use it.

EDIT for spell ideas:

Boundless Light: The targets of this spell are shot through with divine energy. Subjects are healed for X hp per round for 10 rounds(or however longs seems fair to you). Each time this healing occurs (start of subject's turn) all diseases, curses, poisons, paralysis, petrification, and other such conditions are wiped away. If, at any point during this duration, the subject dies, it is immediately resurrected as if by Revivify. The spell continues for its full duration, even if a subject dies multiple times.

Absolute Zero: The area of this spell is stripped of all heat. Fires extinguish. Water crystallizes instantly from the air, forming a clinging frost and flurry of snow. Light dims and even the air becomes thick and hard to breathe. Subjects in the area, and those entering the area for the first time, must make a constitution saving throw or become paralyzed from the shock of the sudden cold. Those who fail may make a new saving throw each turn to regain motion. On a successful save, subjects in the area are effected as if by the Slow spell, though this results from pure cold rather than magical time manipulation. Those in the area also suffer repeating cold damage for every round they are in the spell's area. The damage starts at Xd8 for the first round of exposure. For each round thereafter, increase the damage by 1d8. The spell lasts 10 rounds. Subjects reduced to zero by this spell do not bleed out. Instead, they freeze solid, becoming as brittle as spun glass.

Retribution: The subject of this spell gains resistance to all types of damage. for each point of damage prevented this way, deal that much damage to the source of the damage- or it's controller as appropriate. Damage dealt by this spell is of no particular type- it is a purely destructive impulse and is not subject to immunities or resistances. This spell reduces all incoming damage BEFORE resistances and immunities are applied. If the subject, Bob, is resistant to fire damage and Charley throws a fireball at him for 30, he resists 15 damage and takes half of the remaining fire damage, which is 7. THEN Charley takes the 15 damage which Bob resisted with Retribution.

Further examples: If the subject, Bob, is dealt 50 points of fire damage by the God of the Forge, Bob instead takes half damage. The Forge God then suffers 25 points of damage, despite his immunity to fire. If, instead, the Forge God casts a Wall of Magma that deals 20 points of damage every time it is touched, the Bob takes only 10 damage. The Forge God takes the other 10 because he is the one who controls the Wall of Magma.

[Vogonjeltz]

We did that to a god, became a very mini second sun, kinda screwed over the planet so we had to find a way to fix it while leaving the God there.

I love that spell (and name) but...was this a deity in the loosest sense of the word, as in, not even Rank 1?
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/nailedToTheSky.htm

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#immunities
"A deity of rank 1 or higher can use greater teleport as a spell-like ability at will, as the spell cast by a 20th-level character"

OP, when it comes to past 20th level magic, I'd start with the Epic Boons, and anything beyond that would become rituals or something truly complex requiring customized components or adventures to acquire and use. I prefer high fantasy though.

[woodlandkammao]

You'd kinda have to make wish a tenth level, it's about as powerful as they get.

[Spiriah]

ideas: Mind control all dragons (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0190374/), Nuke it (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsar_Bomba), kill everyone a plane of existence (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deplorable_Word), or Summon the most deadly creature in the multiverse (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fo45o69HaKI).
I was surprised to see that my browser recognized the last link there. Then I clicked on it and saw what it was. :smallsmile:

I fully approve, as long as there's another spell that allows you to kill the moon from orbit.

[Corey]

When I say balance, I mean more in the sense of "How often should this spell be able to be cast, what are the limits". I don't want it to be cast every encounter, just when fighting the pantheon of gods.

Weekly or monthly for how often one may use such a slot.

Also, perhaps there's a custom exhaustion mechanism.

E.g., the first day (as measured by long rests) after it's cast, you forgo a 9th level spell slot.
The second day, an 8th level slot.
Etc.

[Corey]

You'd kinda have to make wish a tenth level, it's about as powerful as they get.

Wish without the drawbacks for non-standard use would be a highest-slot spell for sure.

[Pyon]

If the concern is balancing the spells, perhaps they require more energy than a living body can readily contain. I like the previously mentioned idea of rare components. Maybe the spell requires the literal blood of a god as a material component. They can use blood from wounded gods to cast the spells in combat. When they kill the gods/defeat them/ whatever, maybe you can give them a chance to walk away with a few samples of blood, so that they can cast them a very restricted number of times- potentially running out of charges forever if they use the last sample.

Maybe, later on in the campaign, some god will reward them with a few drops of blood in exchange for a major favor, or they kill a corrupted god and its blood produces unpredictably twisted versions of their spells if they try to use it.

EDIT for spell ideas:

Boundless Light: The targets of this spell are shot through with divine energy. Subjects are healed for X hp per round for 10 rounds(or however longs seems fair to you). Each time this healing occurs (start of subject's turn) all diseases, curses, poisons, paralysis, petrification, and other such conditions are wiped away. If, at any point during this duration, the subject dies, it is immediately resurrected as if by Revivify. The spell continues for its full duration, even if a subject dies multiple times.

Absolute Zero: The area of this spell is stripped of all heat. Fires extinguish. Water crystallizes instantly from the air, forming a clinging frost and flurry of snow. Light dims and even the air becomes thick and hard to breathe. Subjects in the area, and those entering the area for the first time, must make a constitution saving throw or become paralyzed from the shock of the sudden cold. Those who fail may make a new saving throw each turn to regain motion. On a successful save, subjects in the area are effected as if by the Slow spell, though this results from pure cold rather than magical time manipulation. Those in the area also suffer repeating cold damage for every round they are in the spell's area. The damage starts at Xd8 for the first round of exposure. For each round thereafter, increase the damage by 1d8. The spell lasts 10 rounds. Subjects reduced to zero by this spell do not bleed out. Instead, they freeze solid, becoming as brittle as spun glass.

Retribution: The subject of this spell gains resistance to all types of damage. for each point of damage prevented this way, deal that much damage to the source of the damage- or it's controller as appropriate. Damage dealt by this spell is of no particular type- it is a purely destructive impulse and is not subject to immunities or resistances. This spell reduces all incoming damage BEFORE resistances and immunities are applied. If the subject, Bob, is resistant to fire damage and Charley throws a fireball at him for 30, he resists 15 damage and takes half of the remaining fire damage, which is 7. THEN Charley takes the 15 damage which Bob resisted with Retribution.

Further examples: If the subject, Bob, is dealt 50 points of fire damage by the God of the Forge, Bob instead takes half damage. The Forge God then suffers 25 points of damage, despite his immunity to fire. If, instead, the Forge God casts a Wall of Magma that deals 20 points of damage every time it is touched, the Bob takes only 10 damage. The Forge God takes the other 10 because he is the one who controls the Wall of Magma.

Hey I really like that absolute zero idea! Boundless Light is also really neat, the only problem is that the Cleric is a Trickery Cleric from an insane deity and the Paladin is a Paladin of vengeance. Either way, some more random version of Boundless Light I might want to use!

I also like the ideas you guys have been suggesting in terms of how to style it. I was thinking that to prepare the "10th level slot" they would need to do a ritual for their custom spell, and to indeed have a very expensive cost. Probably customizable. So icey related things for the sorcerer, the tears of the goddess for the Cleric, and maybe the blood of the foe the Paladin wants to kill with the spell.

[Kane0]

Fawless Wish: As per Wish, but no Monkey Paws.

Locate City Bomb: 1 damage to all creatures and objects over a few mile radius area. Every creature within area make a strength saving throw or be moved towards the edge of the area of effect, taking 1d6 damage per 10' moved in this way. Creatures moved in this way stop after hitting a solid object such as a wall or after reaching the edge of the spell's radius.

Clone: Duplicate of yourself, completely under your control. Equipment not included.

Mythic Plague: All edible food within a few miles radius of you is immediately eaten by locusts, and all creatures within the same radius are each struck with disease randomly chosen from the effects of Contagion. Creatures may attempt a constitution saving throw to avoid infection, but those that fail are contagious.

Magic Missile Barrage: You conjure 10 darts of force that unerringly hit the target(s) you specify, each dealing 1d6+4 damage. You can sacrifice your own HP for additional magic missiles at the time of casting at a ratio of 1:1

Torment: The target(s) must make a wisdom saving throw or be forcibly teleported to hell where they are subject to the highest quality torture until such a time they are able to escape.

Harm: The target is reduced to 1 HP, and must succeed on a constitution saving throw or be stunned until the end of their next turn.

Erase: One dead subject is removed from memory and history, and their soul is forever lost. No attempt to learn about them or bring them back into existence succeeds.

Alacrity: For the duration of the spell you take two turns during initiative, the second turn taking place at your normal initiative +10

Spell conversion: For the duration of the spell (concentration), damage dealt or taken from spells recovers a spent spell slot of yours at a rate of one spell level per 10 points of damage taken/dealt. You can only recover one spell slot per round.

Undying resolve: For the duration of this spell, all subjects ignore all conditions and damage until the spell's effects end, whereupon all accumulated effects and damage occur.

Iron Heart Surge (Reaction): The trigger of this spell is negated. It does nothing. There is no effect. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200.

[Ninja_Prawn]

The spell should probably be highly specific to the character

(Emphasis mine.) I think this idea is a real winner. Make it personal. This isn't so much a 'spell slot' as an epic boon in the form of a unique spell.


When I say balance, I mean more in the sense of "How often should this spell be able to be cast, what are the limits". I don't want it to be cast every encounter, just when fighting the pantheon of gods.

Obviously the answer to this is: "once you use this ability, you cannot use it again for a year-and-a-day." :smalltongue:

[Pyon]

(Emphasis mine.) I think this idea is a real winner. Make it personal. This isn't so much a 'spell slot' as an epic boon in the form of a unique spell.



Obviously the answer to this is: "once you use this ability, you cannot use it again for a year-and-a-day." :smalltongue:

They are indeed supposed to be personal, in universe they will all be named after the characters. Hell, before they get the spells they will have to do quests which will award them with the spells. Since none of them are actually "research" classes all of them will be awarded with them after a quest, but the spells will still be very much theirs.

[Anonymouswizard]

I don't see the point in trying to balance them. 9th level spells are barely 'balanced' in the abstract sense.

10th level spells in D&D tended to be big scale things and not always small unit skirmish appropriate. Things like "flip this mountain upside down and suspend it in the air 'permanently'". 11th level spells would do things like shut off entire crystal spheres (re: solar systems) from outside contact. 12th level spells might just make you a god.

ideas: Mind control all dragons (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0190374/), Nuke it (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsar_Bomba), kill everyone a plane of existence (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deplorable_Word), or Summon the most deadly creature in the multiverse (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fo45o69HaKI).

Exactly this, but, why 10th level?

Have you introduced any NPCs that have been able to ast 9th level spells? Then 9th level can be the legendary 'tier of myth' that the heroes get access to.

For that matter, in most campaign worlds spells of higher than 5th level might be something a noble only sees once in their lifetime. My personal setting is exactly like this, with most 'archmages' being in the level 8-12 range, with a handful of people in the world reaching level 13+. Forget 10th level spells, Control Weather would be a spell that nobody else on the planet can cast.

If you have introduced 9th level spells, my suggestion for level 10s are things that are really powerful, but indirect. Summoning a miles-wide forest where you are standing, permanently. Plunging a kingdom into eternal darkness. Cancelling out all other magic within a gigantic radius. Turning all the water within a mile to ice, with the exception of that within a metre of you. Poking a god without being smote (smitten? smited?).