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ThinkMinty
2015-10-14, 03:47 PM
I'm trying to think how a Tsundere Paladin would...be. Thoughts, Playground?

That's not the only dimension or any kind of straightjacket, just the underlying premise.

Honest Tiefling
2015-10-14, 03:56 PM
A little something like this (http://thepunchlineismachismo.com/archives/comic/its-not-like-i-like-you-or-anything), I imagine...

Draconium
2015-10-14, 04:01 PM
"Thank you for the Lay on Hands, Mr. Paladin!"

"Sh-shut up. It's not like I wanted to heal you, I just need your help killing these orcs... baka..."

Piedmon_Sama
2015-10-14, 04:04 PM
"It's not that I'll smite you or anything..."

Mr.Moron
2015-10-14, 04:09 PM
I think it'd be really fresh about 15 years ago.



...but really, it'd play out like any other character of the archetype would just with paladin powers. Not sure if there is anything particular the paladin that demands an incredible break for formula.

Friv
2015-10-14, 04:12 PM
Is this paladin tsundere to a specific person, or just to the world in general?

Because honestly, if he's just tsundere to the world, he'd be a noir detective. Grim, cynical, makes big speeches about how the world is rotten to the core and what are you gonna do, but whenever someone's in trouble and the chips are down, there he is in the thick of things, usually grousing that they just keeping dragging him back in.

Traab
2015-10-14, 04:44 PM
A little something like this (http://thepunchlineismachismo.com/archives/comic/its-not-like-i-like-you-or-anything), I imagine...

You know, I read that comic once every year or so to enjoy the updates.

Closet_Skeleton
2015-10-14, 04:51 PM
This world is rotten and not worth saving. If people decide to kill each other its nothing to me.

Its not like I'm protecting you because you're weak and I've sworn a vow or anything.

I'm just killing you because I woke up this morning and found you in the way, don't think I even noticed your nefarious plan.

I was going to kill everyone here, but I'm bored after killing all the bandits. You helpless peasants better be on your way before I change my mind.

Don't think I'm seething with righteous anger because I actually listened to your evil monologue, I'm merely annoyed by your ugly face.

Don't mind me, I had to touch you to check if someone so stupid could have a pulse and just happened to heal you as well.

I care as little about you zombies as a cleric of two levels lower.

I thought for a second I had detected something evil, but now I see it was only a joke villain like you.

If only you were merely half as stupid, there might be something worth protecting after all.

I got bored of carrying this gold and this just happened to be a convenient place to get rid of it. Don't think this is first ed and I'm only allowed to keep 90%.

Could we... talk about justice again sometime?

JCAll
2015-10-14, 07:58 PM
Tsundere Paladin is easy. Yandere Paladin is harder to pull off.

Keledrath
2015-10-14, 08:09 PM
Is this paladin tsundere to a specific person, or just to the world in general?

Because honestly, if he's just tsundere to the world, he'd be a noir detective. Grim, cynical, makes big speeches about how the world is rotten to the core and what are you gonna do, but whenever someone's in trouble and the chips are down, there he is in the thick of things, usually grousing that they just keeping dragging him back in.

I kind of want to sig this...

goto124
2015-10-14, 08:56 PM
Where's the Worst Characters You Can Think Of thread? :smalltongue:


Tsundere Paladin is easy. Yandere Paladin is harder to pull off.

Blackguard!

Ardantis
2015-10-14, 09:18 PM
Is this paladin tsundere to a specific person, or just to the world in general?

Because honestly, if he's just tsundere to the world, he'd be a noir detective. Grim, cynical, makes big speeches about how the world is rotten to the core and what are you gonna do, but whenever someone's in trouble and the chips are down, there he is in the thick of things, usually grousing that they just keeping dragging him back in.

This is the first time I've been able to refer to Philip Marlowe in a role playing post.

ThinkMinty
2015-10-14, 09:40 PM
Tsundere Paladin is easy. Yandere Paladin is harder to pull off.

Just put the Paladin in a goblin village and watch 'em paint the town red.

Ardantis
2015-10-14, 09:48 PM
Just put the Paladin in a goblin village and watch 'em paint the town red.

Is that dirty?

GPuzzle
2015-10-14, 10:02 PM
Is this paladin tsundere to a specific person, or just to the world in general?

Because honestly, if he's just tsundere to the world, he'd be a noir detective. Grim, cynical, makes big speeches about how the world is rotten to the core and what are you gonna do, but whenever someone's in trouble and the chips are down, there he is in the thick of things, usually grousing that they just keeping dragging him back in.

I kind of want to play a Paladin like that right now.

Draconium
2015-10-14, 10:18 PM
Tsundere Paladin is easy. Yandere Paladin is harder to pull off.

Note to self: Next time I play a paladin, they will be a yandere in some way or another. Just for the sheer hilarity value. Bonus points if I can pull it off as a classic Lawful Good paladin. :smalltongue: This is the challenge I am issuing to myself!

GrayGriffin
2015-10-14, 10:51 PM
Tsundere Paladin is easy. Yandere Paladin is harder to pull off.

"I saw you let the cleric heal you. Is my laying hands on you not enough?"

"I really hope you'll convert to my religion. I care for you so much, it'd be a shame for us to be separated in the afterlife."

Darkweave31
2015-10-14, 11:39 PM
Tsundere Paladin is easy. Yandere Paladin is harder to pull off.

"Any action that suppresses evil is, by definition, right! And besides, so sayeth the world... Love is justice! In other words, any action born from love is fair and just! And the more just I am, the more that wonderful man will come to love me!"

An abridged quote from episode 4 of Shimoneta, a beautiful piece of satirical anime. The character I'm quoting, Anna, is essentially a yandere paladin. However, I am obliged to say...
The anime has a very graphic depiction of rape in episode 4.

Closet_Skeleton
2015-10-15, 04:37 AM
Blackguard!

Blackguards and evil clerics are pretty Tsundere. I mean, rebuke/control undead? Come on.

ThinkMinty
2015-10-15, 05:55 AM
Is that dirty?

Nah, just a joke about paladins committing war crimes.

Inevitability
2015-10-15, 06:54 AM
How about a Kuudere paladin?

Nifft
2015-10-15, 08:30 AM
Is that dirty?

Are goblins dirt?

Red Fel
2015-10-15, 08:45 AM
How about a Kuudere paladin?


Kuu!Paladin: "Smiting... Complete. What else would you have me do?"

Leader: "Great job, Kuu! Let's head back to town."

Kuu!Paladin: *faint blush* Senpai likes me. "... Understood."

I almost feel like someone should write a guide on how to play some of these archetypes without making them painful cliches.

You could call it "Getting Dere is Half the Fun."

BWR
2015-10-15, 09:13 AM
I almost feel like someone should write a guide on how to play some of these archetypes without making them painful cliches.

You could call it "Getting Dere is Half the Fun."


This needs to happen!

GPuzzle
2015-10-15, 10:55 AM
I know what's going to be my next game, that's for sure.

Red Fel
2015-10-15, 12:37 PM
This needs to happen!

I'm sorely tempted. Don't tempt me further.

... It's not like I want to, or anything...

Vrock_Summoner
2015-10-15, 12:50 PM
Wait, did Red Fel just-

Wait, he's talking about the general non-cliche Dere guide, not a Dere Paladin guide?

Darn, I thought he was going to make a Paladin-related guide. Still heavily flawed, of course, but progress!

Instead you're just writing about less-cliche applications for tropes about emotionally extreme/volatile characters. Usually teenagers! As if you want that sort of character to propagate even further across the mainstream! Does your evil know no limits!?

Red Fel
2015-10-15, 01:04 PM
Wait, did Red Fel just-

Yes.


Wait, he's talking about the general non-cliche Dere guide, not a Dere Paladin guide?

Yes.


Darn, I thought he was going to make a Paladin-related guide. Still heavily flawed, of course, but progress!

... No.


Instead you're just writing about less-cliche applications for tropes about emotionally extreme/volatile characters. Usually teenagers! As if you want that sort of character to propagate even further across the mainstream!

Yes!


Does your evil know no limits!?

No.

DataNinja
2015-10-15, 01:08 PM
Does your evil know no limits!?
No.
Well of course it does. Otherwise we'd all be living in a RedFelocracy of Tyranny and Evil.

...so it mainly knows logistical limits.

ThinkMinty
2015-10-15, 01:44 PM
I almost feel like someone should write a guide on how to play some of these archetypes without making them painful cliches.

You could call it "Getting Dere is Half the Fun."

You wanna team up on this at some point?

Red Fel
2015-10-15, 01:49 PM
You wanna team up on this at some point?

The funny thing is, I already started drafting it in my head. And then I figured, "Yeah, but for all the jokes, nobody's really interested in a guide to playing a dere. Besides, what can you actually say about it?"

But it's there, man. In my brain. Burrowing around in there. It's really quite uncomfortable.

DataNinja
2015-10-15, 01:54 PM
The funny thing is, I already started drafting it in my head. And then I figured, "Yeah, but for all the jokes, nobody's really interested in a guide to playing a dere. Besides, what can you actually say about it?"

But it's there, man. In my brain. Burrowing around in there. It's really quite uncomfortable.

Oh, I have just the cure.

Doctor ThinkMinty, the Extremely-Painful-and-Unnecessarily-Oversized-Thought-Extraction-Device, please.

Keledrath
2015-10-15, 01:55 PM
You guys should homebrew an alignment system based on this.

ThinkMinty
2015-10-15, 03:38 PM
Oh, I have just the cure.

Doctor ThinkMinty, the Extremely-Painful-and-Unnecessarily-Oversized-Thought-Extraction-Device, please.

We're talking about the frying pan, right?


The funny thing is, I already started drafting it in my head. And then I figured, "Yeah, but for all the jokes, nobody's really interested in a guide to playing a dere. Besides, what can you actually say about it?"

But it's there, man. In my brain. Burrowing around in there. It's really quite uncomfortable.

We could do it as a broader Cartoon Archetype guide, if that helps spread the dere out so it isn't all we're doin'.

DataNinja
2015-10-15, 03:52 PM
We're talking about the frying pan, right?


Um... yes... of course. Let me just put away all of these scalpels and trepanning devices... :smallsigh:

Jelly d6
2015-10-15, 03:56 PM
You guys should homebrew an alignment system based on this.

Yup, in standard system my Yangire Paladin would fall too damn fast :smallwink:

Mr. Mask
2015-10-15, 05:28 PM
You guys should homebrew an alignment system based on this.



Tsun

|
Dan --- --- Dere
|

Yan

That doesn't actually work, however. I can think of characters who fit into all three categories simultaneously. Where they act emotionless, except for a hatred of their love interest, but in actual fact they're head over heels, and secretly killing the competition (or possibly their love interest). So it's more like this:


Dan
/
Dere -- Tsun
\
Yan

The more Yan, Tsun, or Dan you get, the less Dere you end up. Whereas the mentioned forms aren't really in contest with each other (as in the example I mentioned).

Yan isn't necessarily in contest with Dere, depending on how you define it. They could be crazy for their love interest, and happy to kill any rivals with 60 gallons worth of red ink to animate the scene. Of course, a yandere who is crazy enough to end up killing their love interest for obsessive reasons is arguably more Yan, so it's still theoretically in contest. As an example, someone entirely Yan with no Dere, has an obsessive desire to kill the target and anyone related to them, in horrible ways. So, they fit various villain characters. Similarly, all Tsun would be hating the target, and all Dan would be having no feelings whatsoever one way or the other for them.


Of course, this is just discussing it from the perspective of a romance. If you're talking about someone feeling this way towards the world as a whole, it's similar but a little different. The hard boiled detective example being an example of a tsundere towards the world. A yandere towards the world is probably just a serial killers who loves their hobby. And a Dandere would be someone emotionally shut off from the world who secretly wants to get back into society and enjoy life with friends.

JCAll
2015-10-15, 05:34 PM
Note to self: Next time I play a paladin, they will be a yandere in some way or another. Just for the sheer hilarity value. Bonus points if I can pull it off as a classic Lawful Good paladin. :smalltongue: This is the challenge I am issuing to myself!

The trick is to do it without falling. So the next time that Bard you love* is trying to seduce information out of the evil sorceress, feel free to kick the door down Kool-Aid Man Style, and smite her into paste. And those barmaids coming on to him are probably succubi or assassins so you'll need to protect him from them. Just remember he likes to cuddle while you're still covered in blood and gore, don't let his screams of protest and uncomfortable squirming tell you differently, he's just playing hard to get.

*Their opinion doesn't matter.

Draconium
2015-10-15, 05:40 PM
The trick is to do it without falling. So the next time that Bard you love* is trying to seduce information out of the evil sorceress, feel free to kick the door down Kool-Aid Man Style, and smite her into paste. And those barmaids coming on to him are probably succubi or assassins so you'll need to protect him from them. Just remember he likes to cuddle while you're still covered in blood and gore, don't let his screams of protest and uncomfortable squirming tell you differently, he's just playing hard to get.

*Their opinion doesn't matter.

Indeed. :smallbiggrin: Though to be honest, I don't have anyone specifically in mind for my affections* yet, I want to wait and see who else ends up in the game. Crazy Lawful Good without falling is harder to pull off, but I'm gonna try to do it, and keep myself from falling, too.

*Haven't decided whether this Paladin will be male or female. Probably female, but not a guarantee.

Keledrath
2015-10-15, 05:44 PM
*things*

I understood about 5 words of that.

Admiral Squish
2015-10-15, 06:23 PM
Well, great, now I'M thinking about an alignment system...

Maybe 'alignment' would be a bit of a stretch. Maybe 'attitude'?
I'm thinking it could all be boiled down to two 'long' axises. Strong positive (++) /positive (+) /neutral (0) /negative (-)/ strong negative (--). The first component would be the 'shown' emotional state. The second is the 'real' emotional state.
So, a Kuudere would be 0/++. A friendly rival would be -/+. A tsundere would be --/++. A plotting backstabber would be +/--. People who are more honest about their feelings would have more similar attitudes on both axises.

Hiro Protagonest
2015-10-15, 06:33 PM
snip

What about kuudere?

Also I didn't know dandere existed. Half the battle and all that.

Red Fel
2015-10-15, 06:40 PM
We could do it as a broader Cartoon Archetype guide, if that helps spread the dere out so it isn't all we're doin'.

One, they're not "cartoon" archetypes, they're from various media, including animation, graphic novels, regular novels, cinema, and computer games. Two, a "cartoon archetypes" guide would be far too broad; something narrow, or maybe a series of narrow guides, would work much better.


Yup, in standard system my Yangire Paladin would fall too damn fast :smallwink:

Ew. Ew. Yangire. No. Ew.


Well, great, now I'M thinking about an alignment system...

Maybe 'alignment' would be a bit of a stretch. Maybe 'attitude'?
I'm thinking it could all be boiled down to two 'long' axises. Strong positive (++) /positive (+) /neutral (0) /negative (-)/ strong negative (--). The first component would be the 'shown' emotional state. The second is the 'real' emotional state.
So, a Kuudere would be 0/++. A friendly rival would be -/+. A tsundere would be --/++. A plotting backstabber would be +/--. People who are more honest about their feelings would have more similar attitudes on both axises.

People who are honest about their feelings basically aren't dere at all. The Tsundere is haughty but secretly sensitive. The Kuudere is cold but secretly caring. The Yandere is sweet but secretly psycho. The Dandere is antisocial but secretly adorable. Half the point of dere archetypes is that these characters are dishonest about their feelings.


What about kuudere?

My favorites. They'd probably fall into a similar spectrum place as Dandere, though.


Also I didn't know dandere existed. Half the battle and all that.

Yeah. Hard to distinguish from Kuudere, at times. Antisocial vs. Cold.

Okay, seriously, do you guys want this to be a thing? Because this can totally be a thing. I can make this a thing if you guys seriously want it.

GPuzzle
2015-10-15, 06:48 PM
I think the real question is "why is this not a thing yet?"

DataNinja
2015-10-15, 06:54 PM
I think the real question is "why is this not a thing yet?"

Because all those who have tried have lost their sanity, and fallen into the Abyss of Madness...

Red Fel
2015-10-15, 07:26 PM
I think the real question is "why is this not a thing yet?"

Fine (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?451004-Getting-Dere-is-Half-the-Fun). It's not like I did it for you, or anything...

Vrock_Summoner
2015-10-15, 08:00 PM
Because all those who have tried have lost their sanity, and fallen into the Abyss of Madness...
As Red Fel is already mad and the Nine Hells have been doing a fabulous job keeping the Abyss out, I don't think this will present much of a problem.

Mr. Mask
2015-10-15, 08:15 PM
What about kuudere?

Also I didn't know dandere existed. Half the battle and all that. Kuudere is used for Dandere, frequently. Dandere is the emotionless one who seems to have no feelings for the the target, while kuudere is a more or less normal person who appears to have no feelings for the target but actually does.


People who are honest about their feelings basically aren't dere at all. The Tsundere is haughty but secretly sensitive. The Kuudere is cold but secretly caring. The Yandere is sweet but secretly psycho. The Dandere is antisocial but secretly adorable. Half the point of dere archetypes is that these characters are dishonest about their feelings. Someone who is loveydovey and upfront is sometimes called Deredere.


Okay, seriously, do you guys want this to be a thing? Because this can totally be a thing. I can make this a thing if you guys seriously want it. Why settle for a tsundere paladin? Why not make a whole DnD character class based off Tsun/Dan/Yan Dere powers?

I think a tsundere paladin sounds great, but the premise is too vague. Do they grow tsundere attachments towards their enemies? "Prepare to die, evil! I-It's not like I want you to repent or anything..." ...baka

Do you need another member of the party to act as the target? Or perhaps its an NPC who feels that way about the entire party? Or maybe they just talk to everyone that way. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vk2kAlmmJrA)


I think the real question is "why is this not a thing yet?" It might be, but if so it's probably been lost in amongst everything else.


Because all those who have tried have lost their sanity, and fallen into the Abyss of Madness... So.... we just need to do a forum search?

Hiro Protagonest
2015-10-15, 08:19 PM
Kuudere is used for Dandere, frequently. Dandere is the emotionless one who seems to have no feelings for the the target, while kuudere is a more or less normal person who appears to have no feelings for the target but actually does.

I think you've got that backwards.

Mr. Mask
2015-10-15, 08:28 PM
Nope. I-it's not like I double-checked for you or anything.... baka.

GPuzzle
2015-10-15, 08:30 PM
Nope. I-it's not like I double-checked for you or anything.... baka.

I think you did (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Kuudere) get it wrong. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Dandere)

Mr. Mask
2015-10-15, 08:34 PM
Erm, your links reaffirm my point.

Hiro Protagonest
2015-10-15, 08:42 PM
Neither archetype is emotionless, both are silent, but dandere is shy while kuudere is cold and will probably remain untalkative even after they start opening up. The tvtropes pages and this article (http://kotaku.com/how-to-identify-popular-japanese-character-types-1169085239) say that. Urban Dictionary takes the view that they act the same but the motive is different: dandere are just anxious, kuudere think they have to be distant.

Mr. Mask
2015-10-15, 09:57 PM
It's ironic to say Dandere's aren't emotionless, when in the article the prime example used for a Dandere is Nagato. But yes, a Dandere isn't literally emotionless, or else they'd just be Dan. You're using different descriptors to describe the same result.

Shy kind of works. It doesn't really fit the Danderes who are simply out of touch with their emotions, who aren't really sure how to express themselves or feel they don't deserve to. The exact reason a character is X is really a bad way of sorting archetypes, because humans have a diverse range of reactions when encountering the same stimulus. A better way to categorize them is by behaviour, as that sees more commonality.

Solaris
2015-10-15, 11:12 PM
I understood about 5 words of that.

Thank God I'm not the only one.

Hiro Protagonest
2015-10-16, 12:12 AM
It's ironic to say Dandere's aren't emotionless, when in the article the prime example used for a Dandere is Nagato. But yes, a Dandere isn't literally emotionless, or else they'd just be Dan. You're using different descriptors to describe the same result.

I have no idea who the character they showed is, but these are from the pages:


Kuuderes often speak in a calm monotone and seem unaffected by the world around them. They never seem to be overly happy, excited, or surprised—just as they never appear sad, annoyed, or angry. Extreme examples may even seem to be completely emotionless.
[...]
While kuuderes remains strict and business-like, they are emotional underneath their self-control. However, they tend to fear showing any weakness such as admitting liking someone or coming to rely on someone emotionally as well as professionally. Some, are unclear as to how to even express said emotions—and in extreme cases, are unsure what feelings actually mean.

[...]

Danderes often want to be sociable but are too scared or too embarrassed to talk. They tend to fear that saying the wrong thing might get them into trouble—or some other socially awkward situation—so they say nothing to be on the safe side.


Type 1 — Always In Control: Comes off as "kuu-" (cool) because of emotional control, maintaining a calm, collected exterior. Expressions are subtle, with watery eyes being akin to bawling, and a small smile being akin to a giggle fit.

A dandere will be more or less a normal person, but, will not talk unless spoken to/required to. They will avoid talking because of their shyness, but if need be, they will speak.

Kuu doesn't express emotions, Dan is just quiet.

Mr. Mask
2015-10-16, 12:53 AM
Then the Kotaku article and TV Tropes are at odds. Nagato is a dead ringer for the quiet emotionless type, which wouldn't be Dandere according to TV Tropes.

Draconium
2015-10-16, 12:55 AM
Then the Kotaku article and TV Tropes are at odds. Nagato is a dead ringer for the quiet emotionless type, which wouldn't be Dandere according to TV Tropes.

Indeed. From what I've seen of her (which, admittedly, isn't much), she'd far more of a kuudere than a dandere.

Hiro Protagonest
2015-10-16, 01:02 AM
Then the Kotaku article and TV Tropes are at odds. Nagato is a dead ringer for the quiet emotionless type, which wouldn't be Dandere according to TV Tropes.

I guess the picture itself is just a bad example. The writing in the article seems to be in line.

Mr. Mask
2015-10-16, 01:31 AM
Err.... if they can't match the term to the case, then why are you using it as an example of how to match the term to the case?

Hawkstar
2015-10-17, 03:42 AM
Yup, in standard system my Yangire Paladin would fall too damn fast :smallwink:

a Yangire Paladin would be a Powder Keg of Justice. The closest I can think of is a Paragon Commander Shepard. With possibly a few renegade interrupts. But that's because I'm playing Mass Effect.

Kitten Champion
2015-10-17, 11:13 AM
Hmm... Julis from The Asterisk War pretty much fits the Tsundere Paladin concept. Lawful Good with a heavy emphasis on fulfilling her duties and acting with nobility, but at the same time she hides her personal feelings behind that as well. Ascribing her motives to merely doing what's Right within her rigid beliefs, and getting flustered or angry when it's insinuating she's being influenced by her -somewhat- concealed affection for the protagonist or more trivial personal desires. Also the type to overreact to the perceived inequities or faithlessness of the protagonist or push unreasonable criticisms on rival love interests in typical tsundere fashion.

I'm sure there are other characters like that, particularly in similar LNs, but she happened to be the latest that I'm aware of. I think the concepts work together fine, since someone with a sharp sense of pride and hardened personal beliefs is going to be more at odds with the more human feelings leading to plausibly amusing self-conflict.

I'm playing a Sorceress who's heavily into her chuunibyou-esque persona at the moment, personally.

Jelly d6
2015-10-17, 02:21 PM
a Yangire Paladin would be a Powder Keg of Justice. The closest I can think of is a Paragon Commander Shepard. With possibly a few renegade interrupts. But that's because I'm playing Mass Effect.

A Powder Keg of Justice would be a subtler way of playing it out. I was thinking more of an A-bomb of Justice. With the strict treaty of nonproliferation running effectively all over the place. Because the latter point definitely makes sense.