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RavenJovan
2015-10-17, 03:49 PM
I apologize for not making a formal request for comments, of which I would love to hear. I realize that the races are very likely OP, as such I'd like a way to limit them so that they are balanced but still beneficial and fun to run for myself and my players.

I'd like to think this complete but more advice is always welcome.:smallsmile:


Sprite

Tiny fey
Tools: Poisoner’s kit, herbalism kit
Speed 10ft., fly 40ft. (flight is not capable with anything more than light armor)
Racial Traits: Dexterity +2, Charisma +1
Languages: Common, Elvish, Sylvan

Heart Sight: The sprite touches a creature and magically knows the creature's current emotional state. If the target fails a DC Charisma Spell saving throw, the sprite also knows the creature's alignment. Celestials, fiends, and undead automatically fail the saving throw.

Invisibility: The sprite magically turns invisible until it attacks or casts a spell, or until its concentration ends (as if concentrating on a spell). Any equipment the sprite wears or carries is invisible with it. Can use this ability 1+ Charisma mod per long rest.


-Sleep Poison Recipe-
Automatically know how to brew a poison that can knock someone unconscious (non-fatal), it cost 500 gp in exotic ingredients for 5 doses at tiny size
DC (8+medicine mod) Constitution saving throw or become poisoned for l minute. If its saving throw result is 5 or lower, the poisoned target falls unconscious for the same duration, or until it takes damage or another creature takes an action to shake it awake.

Ninja_Prawn
2015-10-17, 05:45 PM
Are you looking for comment / criticism here? Because I have comments...

JNAProductions
2015-10-17, 05:53 PM
At-will invisibilty? Flight in any armor? +4 Dexterity?

Overpowered. Just plain OP.

Ninja_Prawn
2015-10-17, 06:20 PM
At-will invisibilty? Flight in any armor? +4 Dexterity?

Overpowered. Just plain OP.

But look at this poster's other homebrew... They might be working on some kind of alternate system where everyone has loads of power.

I mean, is this even a race? It's presented kind of like a class.

And besides, there's been no formal request for comment, so this might be a 'finished product'.

JNAProductions
2015-10-17, 06:22 PM
Fair enough.

I amend my earlier statement-in ordinary D&D 5E, this is overpowered as heck.

RavenJovan
2015-10-18, 12:32 PM
At-will invisibilty? Flight in any armor? +4 Dexterity?

Overpowered. Just plain OP.

At-Will invisibility, yes; flight in any armor, no, only light; +4 Dex Bonus to when you roll stats as well as a -2 to Str.
I realize that it is OP but I'd like input on how to make it better and more balanced.

JNAProductions
2015-10-18, 12:46 PM
Get rid of invisibility entirely, or make it 1/Long Rest at a higher level.

Change the stat bonuses to +2 Dex, +1 Charisma, with no penalties.

Make it clear you can only fly in light armor. And even that's a little iffy, since you're basically locked into light armor classes with that crippling 10' speed.

RavenJovan
2015-10-18, 01:14 PM
Get rid of invisibility entirely, or make it 1/Long Rest at a higher level.

Change the stat bonuses to +2 Dex, +1 Charisma, with no penalties.

Make it clear you can only fly in light armor. And even that's a little iffy, since you're basically locked into light armor classes with that crippling 10' speed.

Keep in mind the size category of the race which is why I imposed the penalty, and the extra dex, it was designed to have the sixe category advantages already applied.

Invisibility is a racial ability so I won't remove it but I think limited it would be for the best.

JNAProductions
2015-10-18, 01:16 PM
I don't care if +4 Dex, -2 Str makes sense. (Because it does.)

It does not work from a gamist persepctive. This becomes the single best race for ANY dexterity based class by a long shot.

RavenJovan
2015-10-18, 01:18 PM
I don't care if +4 Dex, -2 Str makes sense. (Because it does.)

It does not work from a gamist persepctive. This becomes the single best race for ANY dexterity based class by a long shot.

So then perhaps changing the +4 to a +2 would make it better?

JNAProductions
2015-10-18, 01:18 PM
Yeah. Like I said, make it +2 Dex, +1 Cha, no Strength penalty.

RavenJovan
2015-10-18, 01:20 PM
Yeah. Like I said, make it +2 Dex, +1 Cha, no Strength penalty.

May I have a reason why to take of the STR penalty?

JNAProductions
2015-10-18, 01:21 PM
It's an unneeccessary penalty not consistent with 5E design philosiphies.

RavenJovan
2015-10-18, 01:23 PM
It's an unneeccessary penalty not consistent with 5E design philosiphies.

But what about the size penalties from the 5e books?

JNAProductions
2015-10-18, 01:23 PM
There aren't any.

RavenJovan
2015-10-18, 01:32 PM
There aren't any.

Alright so how about the poison for the sprite, what are your thoughts on that one?

Ninja_Prawn
2015-10-18, 01:32 PM
JNA is right. Unless you homebrew a whole system to deal with tiny PCs, there's no point messing around with strength penalties.

Sprites are a difficult race to give to PCs, because they get a lot of stuff that is blatantly unbalancing. Flight. Invisibility. Lots of Dex. Even 40ft land movement is powerful.

JNAProductions
2015-10-18, 01:34 PM
Eh. Poison seems fine to me.

Just one minor change-allow a saving throw at the end of each of their turns to shake off the poisoned condition.

Ninja_Prawn
2015-10-18, 01:36 PM
Alright so how about the poison for the sprite, what are your thoughts on that one?

It seems fine... and way overpriced (assuming you put in the standard save-ends thing).

RavenJovan
2015-10-18, 01:39 PM
Eh. Poison seems fine to me.

Just one minor change-allow a saving throw at the end of each of their turns to shake off the poisoned condition.

I thought that went without saying?

RavenJovan
2015-10-18, 01:40 PM
It seems fine... and way overpriced (assuming you put in the standard save-ends thing).

It's made from exotic hard to get materials, which is why it's a bit on the expensive side, I didn't want to make it cheap.

Ninja_Prawn
2015-10-18, 01:40 PM
So, I notice that you've edited the OP. It's points time!


Sprite

3 ASI
0.5 Weapon & Armour proficiencies
1 Skill proficiencies
1 Tool proficiencies
1 40 ft movement
2 Flight
0.5 Heart Sight
1 Invisibility
0.25 Languages

TOTAL: 10.25

...yep, still way overpowered.

JNAProductions
2015-10-18, 01:42 PM
Why does it get weapon and armor proficiencies anyway? That doesn't make much sense.

RavenJovan
2015-10-18, 01:47 PM
Why does it get weapon and armor proficiencies anyway? That doesn't make much sense.

I built it from the Monster Manuel, I kinda just went with it.

RavenJovan
2015-10-18, 01:50 PM
So, I notice that you've edited the OP. It's points time!


Sprite

3 ASI
0.5 Weapon & Armour proficiencies
1 Skill proficiencies
1 Tool proficiencies
1 40 ft movement
2 Flight
0.5 Heart Sight
1 Invisibility
0.25 Languages

TOTAL: 10.25

...yep, still way overpowered.

WTF does this even mean or come from?

Ninja_Prawn
2015-10-18, 01:57 PM
WTF does this even mean or come from?

It's a rough system for gauging the power of races. It's not mine; a guy named Musicus made it.

In general, you should be aiming for 5-6 points if you want a race to be balanced against the PHB races. 4-5 is playable; 6-7 should be okay if there isn't much synergy between the racial features, but outside that you're on shaky ground.

Also, I tend to think of the MM stat block as including both racial and class features. Therefore I would cut the tool and skill proficiencies... though 'would' is probably the wrong word, given that I've already done my version (https://www.dropbox.com/s/djoe8axkkk8w5se/Fey%20Creatures%20Part%201.pdf?dl=0) of the sprite.

RavenJovan
2015-10-18, 02:04 PM
It's a rough system for gauging the power of races. It's not mine; a guy named Musicus made it.

In general, you should be aiming for 5-6 points if you want a race to be balanced against the PHB races. 4-5 is playable; 6-7 should be okay if there isn't much synergy between the racial features, but outside that you're on shaky ground.

Also, I tend to think of the MM stat block as including both racial and class features. Therefore I would cut the tool and skill proficiencies... though 'would' is probably the wrong word, given that I've already done my version (https://www.dropbox.com/s/djoe8axkkk8w5se/Fey%20Creatures%20Part%201.pdf?dl=0) of the sprite.

I see where your coming from, so I'll take out some of the proficiencies and see how it looks.

rlc
2015-10-18, 05:12 PM
I'm actually not sure why anybody would post something here if they didn't want constructive criticism, so a formal request for comments is kind of...pointless.
As for the actual post itself, it looks a lot better than what was apparently in the original, also a lot more 5e-y.
I have one question about the poison: does one dose work the same regardless of a creature's size? I might just be reading it wrong, but does 1 dose work the same for a tiny creature as it does for a medium or large one?
edit: also, just because I'm that guy, "then" should be "than" and "cost" should be "costs."

RavenJovan
2015-10-18, 05:43 PM
I'm actually not sure why anybody would post something here if they didn't want constructive criticism, so a formal request for comments is kind of...pointless.
As for the actual post itself, it looks a lot better than what was apparently in the original, also a lot more 5e-y.
I have one question about the poison: does one dose work the same regardless of a creature's size? I might just be reading it wrong, but does 1 dose work the same for a tiny creature as it does for a medium or large one?
edit: also, just because I'm that guy, "then" should be "than" and "cost" should be "costs."

One dose is enough to cover a tiny creature's quiver of arrows, but is potent enough that one tiny arrow dose can effect medium creatures. At least that's how I see it working, that part was another part I needed to work on; Size differences and such are such a pain.

weaseldust
2015-10-18, 06:35 PM
I ended up writing a long digression about what I would do, which I hid in a spoiler so it doesn't clutter the thread and because it's more helpful to discuss how your own version could be altered.

Ninja Prawn's link has very detailed rules for Tiny creatures, which I can recommend if you plan to have lots of them around.

My shortcut rules are something like the following:


The amounts a Tiny creature can carry, push, drag, or lift are 10 times less than usual based on its strength score
A Tiny creature automatically fails strength checks to interact with objects larger than the amount it can push, or strength contests against creatures larger than that; it has disadvantage against Small or larger creatures that are light enough to push
A Tiny creature has advantage on dexterity checks in contests against creatures that are Small or larger
A Tiny creature may have disadvantage to interact with objects designed for larger creatures as the DM finds appropriate
A Tiny creature can move through the space of and hide behind a creature that is Small or larger
A Tiny creature's weapons all have their damage die replaced by a flat 1 when used against creatures or objects that are Small or larger


To counteract the weapon damage, I let Tiny fey magically poison their own weapons at will. They deal an additional d4 poison damage, or 2d4 if they are heavy weapons, so long as the target is not immune to the weapon damage.

With those rules, a Tiny creature deals average damage and can still be good at Athletics without being able to push halflings around. They basically gain a net benefit from being Tiny because of the bonus to dexterity contests (including Stealth and Sleight of Hand) and being able to hide behind allies. I'd rate the net benefit at +2 Musicus units overall.

With +3 from ability increases and probably +2 from flight, that already gives you a strong race. Consequently, I would cut the tool proficiencies and sleep poison, and bundle Heart Sight and Invisibility into a fey-only feat called 'Fey Magic', or something.

They could also get Sleep from that feat. Or, if you want to keep the 'sleep poison' feel, they could instead gain the following ability: once per short rest, when you damage a creature with the fey poison on your weapon, you may force the creature to make a constitution save against 8 plus your proficiency bonus plus your charisma modifier - if they fail, they are affected as if by the Sleep spell, but if they succeed, they become drowsy for 1 minute (treated as if Poisoned), with a constitution save at the end of each turn to end the effect.

I'm not keen on the sleep poison; DC10 is fine for a monster ability, but players will just get frustrated that it keeps failing, especially at high levels. Keeping track of the cost and number of doses will also get annoying for many players.

I would at the very least have them gain Invisibility only at level 3, because it replicates the effect of a level 2 spell. I'd be tempted (as discussed in the digression) to make it part of a racial feat instead.

You might want to limit the flight somehow. A decent way is to make gaining height cost twice the usual amount of movement (as if they were climbing) and disallow carrying anything except what they wear and what can fit in one hand. A more punishing way would be to reduce the speed to 30ft and force them to land at the end of each turn, and then give full flight at 40ft as part of the racial feat.

Ninja_Prawn
2015-10-19, 12:37 AM
I'm actually not sure why anybody would post something here if they didn't want constructive criticism, so a formal request for comments is kind of...pointless.

You'd think so, but I've had people have a go at me for offering comments on things that they intended as 'finished products for sharing' rather than 'works in progress for comment'. It's best to check, especially if you're going to provide a lot of criticism, as in this case.

Weaseldust is right that DC10 is pretty lame for a PC ability... though some of the poisons in the core rules have similar stats. If it were cheaper, I don't think it would be a problem - that's why I made my version a common magic item (so 50gp).

RazDelacroix
2015-10-19, 01:39 PM
Perhaps if the poison's DC was set to 8 + Proficiency Bonus + Dexterity/Intelligence Modifier to represent your Sprite's expertise with handling the stuff?

RavenJovan
2015-10-24, 11:16 AM
Perhaps if the poison's DC was set to 8 + Proficiency Bonus + Dexterity/Intelligence Modifier to represent your Sprite's expertise with handling the stuff?

I hear ya, so I made it a DC of 10+ medicine mod so it can get stronger as the player gains levels.

JNAProductions
2015-10-24, 11:20 AM
Make it 8, otherwise the DC will be too high for anyone trained in Medicine.

RavenJovan
2015-10-24, 11:23 AM
Make it 8, otherwise the DC will be too high for anyone trained in Medicine.

True enough, it shall be done.

Edit: Plus I think with the 10+medicine mod, I'd have been factoring in prof bonus twice