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Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick
2007-05-24, 09:52 AM
Well; this is a quick query (I hope), but it's not quite RAW, so it gets its own thread.

Okay, here's the score; I'm running a stealthy melee PC, a rogue/warblade, with hefty Int/skills, decent BAB, and a focus on tactical mobility coupled with that stealth (with base land speed of 55 and Hide in Plain Sight).

I've got a tactical idea that I think will make things 'interesting' for said character's foes; the problem is, I'm at character level 3 and said idea requires spring attack. I really, really don't want to spend my next three feats, and thus nine levels worth of featage, on this.

So what I'm looking for is this: the quickest, dirtiest, most low-down method to yoink at least two bonus feats without sacrificing a significant amount of capability.

Ideally, this means PrCs to avoid XP penalties, full BAB would be nice, but if it advances SA progression or otherwise aids a stealth combat character, I'll happily sacrifices HD and BAB. The only hard-and-fast rule is ease of qualification and two bonus feats in as many levels.

Thoughts? Suggestions? Snide remarks?

B!shop
2007-05-24, 10:00 AM
Going fighter for a couple of levels, but that could mean XP penalty for the third class.

Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick
2007-05-24, 10:04 AM
Going fighter for a couple of levels, but that could mean XP penalty for the third class.
That was indeed my first thought; in the end, however, the two feats, BAB, and saves don't counterbalance the XP penalty, especially given that I've got some LA buyoff coming.

Person_Man
2007-05-24, 10:09 AM
Chameleon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b&page=1) gives you a bonus feat after just 2 levels, and you can change it every morning. But if you're not a human or doppelganger with Able Learner, you can't get into the class.

Martyred Champion of Ilmater from PGF provides bonus feats, but requires Endurance and Nimbus of Light.

A Loremaster (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/loremaster.html) with high enough Int can get any bonus feat every other level. But its a caster class.

Basically, you're screwed unless your DM allows you to rebuild and take Flaws.

Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick
2007-05-24, 10:16 AM
I've already got at least one flaw; it seems senseless to take another. :smalleek:

Chameleon...would be interesting, but I haven't got Able Learner. Sad for me.

No dice on Endurance, either, and Loremaster requires about five feats I don't have and never will, so no luck there.

My options, it would seem, boil down to 'wait' and 'take an XP hit for two levels of fighter'. Unless there's an ascetic X equivalent for rogues...

GryffonDurime
2007-05-24, 10:20 AM
A Loremaster (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/loremaster.html) with high enough Int can get any bonus feat every other level.

No you can't.


Secret: At 1st level and every two levels higher than 1st (3rd, 5th, 7th, and 9th), the loremaster chooses one secret from the table below. Her level plus Intelligence modifier determines the total number of secrets she can choose. She canít choose the same secret twice.

Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick
2007-05-24, 10:24 AM
As if one needed another reason to take Loremaster off the table.
Thanks for the tip, though.

ocato
2007-05-24, 10:27 AM
Well, could you A. Retrain some feats or B. Develop a flaw through good RP? or C. Punch the DM in the head when he isn't looking and then say you got the bonus feats from the magic sparrows floating around his head?

You might be in too deep, I'd consider the fighter approach.

Logos7
2007-05-24, 10:33 AM
have you considered binder?

3 levels in binder + Improved binding should get you 3rd level bbinds ( or use the two feats in the book) It's not in the book but a visage that gives spring attack wouldn't be out of the question butu again it comes to begging the dm

Loos

Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick
2007-05-24, 10:35 AM
have you considered binder?

3 levels in binder + Improved binding should get you 3rd level bbinds ( or use the two feats in the book) It's not in the book but a visage that gives spring attack wouldn't be out of the question butu again it comes to begging the dm

Loos
True, but as Binder is a base class, we once again have an XP-penalty problem.

Otherwise, good suggestion.

JaronK
2007-05-24, 10:35 AM
Can you switch your Rogue levels to Feat Rogue levels? Feat Rogue is from UA... lose all sneak attack to gain feats like a fighter at the normal fighter levels.

JaronK

Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick
2007-05-24, 10:36 AM
Can you switch your Rogue levels to Feat Rogue levels? Feat Rogue is from UA... lose all sneak attack to gain feats like a fighter at the normal fighter levels.

JaronK
Could, more than likely, but won't; if I wanted bonus feats instead of SA, I'd play a fighter.

JaronK
2007-05-24, 10:42 AM
Well, you're level 3. How many levels do you intend to have of your other two classes? And what race are you? There are lots of dip classes for bonus feats, if you're willing to dilute either Rogue or Warblade levels.

JaronK

Fax Celestis
2007-05-24, 10:42 AM
If you were to retrain, what would you?

Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick
2007-05-24, 10:45 AM
If you were to retrain, what would you?

I'd replace Wild Talent with Dodge, most likely.

Indon
2007-05-24, 10:45 AM
Warblades get the occasional bonus feat as-is, and if you have a Rogue level over 10, I'm pretty sure you can exchange a rogue ability for a bonus feat. FYI.

Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick
2007-05-24, 10:48 AM
Warblades get the occasional bonus feat as-is, and if you have a Rogue level over 10, I'm pretty sure you can exchange a rogue ability for a bonus feat. FYI.
Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack are not Warblade bonus feats, and Rog 10 is a good long way away. Emphasis on 'quick' of the 'quick and dirty' descriptor.

NullAshton
2007-05-24, 10:51 AM
If you really want to, you could try to get your DM to waive the multiclassing requirements. I've never used them myself, and none of the DM's that I've played with uses it.

Astaroth
2007-05-24, 08:02 PM
Not entirely sure whether this would work, or whether this technically is supposed to give an XP penalty; I know there's no penalty in the game I'm playing in now, but might be a house rule.

That being said... couldn't you just take a lvl in Fighter for one bonus feat, then perhaps a lvl in Swashbuckler for the other (assuming you have Weapon Finesse already, Swashbuckler gives that as a bonus feat at 1st lvl - if you do already have it, I believe you're allowed by RAW to switch it for another feat for which you qualify). If the Swashbuckler thing doesn't work, or if having 1 lvl dips in 2 base classes does actually give you an XP penalty, sorry. It'd work in the game I'm playing, but not sure how house-ruled that is. :P

But hey, worst case you can always just take 1 lvl of Fighter and then suck it up for another 3 levels. Not ideal, but quicker and dirtier than just waiting to earn the feats normally.

Jasdoif
2007-05-24, 08:49 PM
Out of curiousity, what's your race's favored class?

Lemur
2007-05-24, 09:01 PM
What is said tactical idea that requires Spring Attack, anyway? I'm interested in knowing what the deal about it is.

Mr. Moogle
2007-05-24, 09:29 PM
multiclass to the Force Adept (in sig). ring of invisibility + improved sunder + some high damage manuver = sneak-attacking-sunderbitch.

Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick
2007-05-24, 09:33 PM
Jasdoif, it's rogue; I'm a changeling, albeit templated.

As to the tactical idea, it relates to my Simple Q&A query. >.<;

The idea is to Hide in Plain Sight (thanks to the Dark template), move out of hiding, deal Sneak Attack damage, possibly combined with a Nightmare Blade (or Emerald Razor against high-AC enemies) then vanish again, since re-hiding after a melee attack is part of a move action.

So, appear, stab, disappear. And it's nonmagical hiding, too, so that's icing on the cake. It's a 'surgical strike' model.

Addendum: apparently you can't combine them with Spring Attack.
However, you can combine them with flyby attack. And that doesn't require feats, just a fly speed, which is nice.

Jasdoif
2007-05-24, 09:39 PM
OK, that's a little easier here...I'm thinking that you could take two levels of Fighter, and as your 9th character level feat take that variant feat from Unearthed Arcana that allows you to get another favored class, and take it for warblade. Then your rogue and warblade levels aren't considered for multiclass penalties.

The feat's on page 100 of Unearthed Arcana, although why I can't find it online is beyond me since it looks like it should be open content.

EDIT: For added note, you should be able to spread your class levels between rogue and warblade to avoid a two-level gap between warblade and fighter until then, so you won't take an XP penalty. But of course, it's a variant; your DM may not allow it.

Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick
2007-05-24, 09:40 PM
OK, that's a little easier here...I'm thinking that you could take two levels of Fighter, and as your 9th character level feat take that variant feat from Unearthed Arcana that allows you to get another favored class, and take it for warblade. Then your rogue and warblade levels aren't considered for multiclass penalties.

The feat's on page 100 of Unearthed Arcana, although why I can't find it online is beyond me since it looks like it should be open content.
...huh. Pretty nifty.

But the thing is, since I mainly wanted Spring Attack to combine with maneuvers, and it doesn't work that way (as you yourself pointed out), should I even still bother?

Jasdoif
2007-05-24, 09:47 PM
Well, do you still want to?

I admit I'm not well-versed on ToB, haven't had the opportunity and inclination at the same time to really dig through it; but I do believe you can make use of stances while Spring Attacking, something there might be good for you. And of course, no one's going to expect you to be pulling off maneuvers if they do break your Hide in Plain Sight, it might be enough to enhance your survivability.

Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick
2007-05-24, 09:51 PM
Well, do you still want to?

I admit I'm not well-versed on ToB, haven't had the opportunity and inclination at the same time to really dig through it; but I do believe you can make use of stances while Spring Attacking, something there might be good for you. And of course, no one's going to expect you to be pulling off maneuvers if they do break your Hide in Plain Sight, it might be enough to enhance your survivability.
Well, as a standard action, I can deal double or quadruple damage with nightmare blades; emerald razor will allow me to make any attack a touch attack; and time stands still at high levels lets me make two full attacks.

All in all, some very nice stuff. And those are just maneuvers from one discipline.

And you're right, stances would be nice; and flyby attack doesn't prevent AoOs, so mobility might still be worth it.

Fax Celestis
2007-05-24, 09:51 PM
The feat's on page 100 of Unearthed Arcana, although why I can't find it online is beyond me since it looks like it should be open content.

It's in a sidebar. UA's sidebars are not OGL.

Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick
2007-05-24, 09:54 PM
So, follow-up; who knows a reasonable way to get a fly speed?

I've already ruled out a fiendish graft, so, other than that.

Jasdoif
2007-05-24, 09:57 PM
It's in a sidebar. UA's sidebars are not OGL.Oh. Why is that, though? Are the sidebars considered "trade dress"?

Fax Celestis
2007-05-24, 10:15 PM
Oh. Why is that, though? Are the sidebars considered "trade dress"?

Yeah. It has to do with the fact that they're house rules by the authors rather than actually created rules, I think. I wouldn't quote me on that, though.