Darkness, and Death, For the Good Guys?

[Turtlemancer]

Ok, maybe its just my own theological and philosophical views talking but who else is tired of all the Death, Darkness = Evil crap? I wanna do something awesome create 3 unique variant classes. First a Death Domain Cleric devoted to the a more positive representation of Death (Yes they exist). More along the lines of Gods like (The Mythological) Hades, Anubis, and Osiris. Or something more along the lines of the Hindu god Shiva, or the oft overlooked destructive aspect of Monotheistic gods. A Similar Paladin as-well, and a Warlock Sworn to the Grim Reaper.

Cleric Spirit Domain
"Death is not the end."
Not all Gods of Death are mustache twirling lichgods. Some are agents of natural balance, or benevolent guides who seek to save lost souls, and ease the suffering of mourners, and as such not all Death Clerics are wicked agents of undeath and decay. Some are agents of balance, or arbiters of spiritual grace. Such is the way of the Soul Domain Cleric, bane of Undeath, Conduit for the Departed, and Friend to those left behind.

Paladin Oath of Penance
"Let the old man die, May the new man last forever."

A Paladin who follows this Oath seeks to set there past behind them, Seeking to set the wrongs of the world right. Penitent Paladins are often Ex-Criminals or Once Fallen Paladins, however a Penitent Paladin may instead be someone who has survived a traumatic experience, or who feels they have squandered there life away on fruitless endeavors and seeks to instead do some good with what time they have left, They could even have been someone who literally returned from the grave. Regardless of the life they leave behind those who take the Oath of Penance seek to set aside there old life and start a new better life of selflessness and valor.

http://orig04.deviantart.net/3d9e/f/2015/302/6/e/dark_paladin_by_pbuckley-d9ericz.png


Forgiveness- We are all flawed and I am no exception, I must always remember not to judge others based on my own viewpoint and preconceptions, but rather by trying to see there side of things.
Altruism: I will never leave a wicked deed to fester, I will always seek to right wrongs however small or trivial they may seem, but will never terry in a urgent task or forget to afford myself time to rest.
Confession- Wicked deeds and inaction, can lay heavy on the heart, I will always lend an ear to a heavy heart, and will never betray the trust of Confession, save to persurve a life.
Death: We all die, change is inevitable, I have learned it is best to put your past behind you and try to do better the next time around.
Rebirth: I have been given a second chance, because of this I will always try to afford others the same courtesy, but will never flinch in the face of evil deeds.

Grim Pact Warlock
"Sometimes even death needs a little help."
The Grim Pact warlock serves a Patron like no other. The Reaper itself has stuck a deal with this pragmatic practitioner of the Dark Arts. You collect lost souls for me, I don't collect yours. A simple proposition on paper but for the Grim Pact Warlock there duty is more than a simple contract, searching out those pesky dodgers like Sisyphus, or simply tearing into undead with eldritch arcana, it can be a hard life when your boss is death itself.

Spells
I need to create a small number of Necromantic Spells preferably spells that focus things other than making peoples toes fall off or conjure zombies from the Grave. I have a few names but beyond that nadda, Lay to Rest, Ghost Step, Channel Dead, Cloak of the Ancestors, ect.

Is this even worth the work?
Beyond using these for possible NPC's I would like to know if anyone was even be interested? Is the fun of Darkness and Death inherently tied to evil characters would anyone even want such a character if they cant summon an army of the Undead? In short, Would anyone care? I am going to do this either way but if people are interested they are more likely to see a better thought out and well developed set of Archetypes for use, and are more likely to see them show up much faster.

[Molemanking]

I think these could be interesting ideas. I've wondered why the DMG only lists the evil death deities in regards to the Death Domain Cleric when Kelemvor is available.

[Turtlemancer]

Yeah this is because most non-Evil Death Gods hate undead Kalavor is more the rule than the exception and the idiots designed the "Death" domain as the UNDEATH domain and called it the Death domain.

Also need a new word other than Penance Apparently that has associations with the Clan which well "DO NOT WANT!"

[Molemanking]

How about Oath of Repentance? I could see a deity like Illmater having former criminals joining the clergy.

[Turtlemancer]

Looks like the cleric just needs an alternative spell list all its features seem to be Necrotic Damage based... With the ability to ignore Necrotic Damage resistance. (Thus can be used on Undead) As well as the ability to cast single target Necromancy spells on multiple targets. I'll have to wait until I get those new spells cooked up (Or gathered from elsewhere) to create the new spell list. What about re-flavoring some knowledge spells maybe?

Oath of Repentance doesn't quite sound right and seems a bit on the nose.

What about Oath of Rebirth?

[Ralanr]

Undying Warlock is pretty not evil undead.

As for Paladin (because I too do not like darkness and death being automatically evil) you could focus on them becoming a part of the darkness. A paladin that can hide from the detection of fiends and other things that go bump in the night. Though they wouldn't be all "I'm only partly evil guys! Perfect for emo players!" (I hate it when it forces that aspect).

Take the positive qualities of darkness/night:
-a time of rest
-privacy
-dreams

They might be a rogue like subclass. Oath of night?

[Turtlemancer]

I am currently Playing with Oath of Rebirth focusing on the idea of severing ties and death in a figurative sense. But If I cant come up with anything for that.

Oath of Night or Oath of Shadow might be an interesting Idea. A Paladin who focuses on the idea of protecting others by using darkness.

Oath of Rebirth A Paladin who follows this Oath seeks to set there past behind them, Seeking to set the wrongs of the world right. Reborn Paladins are often Ex-Criminals or Once Fallen Paladins, however a Reborn Paladin may instead be someone who has suffered a traumatic experience, or who feels they have squandered there life away on fruitless endeavors and seeks to instead do some good with what time they have left. Regardless of the life they leave behind those who take the Oath of Rebirth seek to set aside there old life and start a new better life of selflessness and valor.

Humility: I accept my faults and see myself as I truly am, flawed and broken, but I know I am no longer the same as I was and seek to become better person in my new life.
Forgiveness: I can see others who have fallen into evil for who they truly are, and whenever possible try to afford others a chance at redemption, However I am not beyond showing the unrepentant their final mercy.
Penance: I will never leave a wicked deed to fester, I will always seek to right wrongs however small or trivial they may seem, but will never terry in a urgent task or forget to afford myself time to rest.
Fairness: I will always try to see both sides of an issue as best I can before acting, but will not hesitate to act when need for action is evident.
Rebirth: I have been reborn, I am not the same person I was, My past is behind me and I must always look forward to the future and make the most of the second chance I have been given few are so lucky.

[Ralanr]

I am currently Playing with Oath of Rebirth focusing on the idea of severing ties and death in a figurative sense. But If I cant come up with anything for that.

Oath of Night or Oath of Shadow might be an interesting Idea. A Paladin who focuses on the idea of protecting others by using darkness.

Like Batman! Or someone with shadow manipulation powers.

[Turtlemancer]

How are these?

Oath of Night
Sanctuary: Peace is a Precious commodity, just as the night comes to grant its coolness to relieve us from the heat of the day, so too shall I come to shelter others from the strife of this world.
Shadow: In the same way Shadow is born from light, So too is Night born from day. All things are beautiful in there own way, All things that exist are capable of great good and great evil, and so nothing and no one should ever be shunned for what it is but rather judged for its action.
Stars: The Night sky is filled with many stars, Just as the stars shine brightest in the deepest black, so too shall I shine brightest in the darkness. I will seek out the darkest places in the world and shine light into them.
Dreams: All who rest under the Stars dream, No one should ever be denied there right to a dream. I will always seek to aid anyone with a noble dream in at least some small way.
Death: All who live one day shall die, I will face death honorably, and will do my best to help others go into the eternal night in peace.

Oath of Emptiness
Altruism- I will seek out the wrongs of this world, so that I may set them right.
Humility- I am only one of many, I must place the needs of others before my own wants, but will not forget my needs for I can help no one if I am dead.
Fairness- I will seek to understand others even when I disagree with them, and will always try to understand both sides of an issue, but will act regardless should action be called for.
Mercy- All who live suffer and few who are wicked are irredeemable, I will always try to afford others the courtesy of a chance to right there own wrongs, but will not hesitate to send the unrepentant soul to there final judgment.
Reason- I will always try to act reasonably even if I may not like it, But will not let wicked deeds go unrighted for any longer than I reasonably have to.

[Ralanr]

How are these?

Oath of Night
Sanctuary: Peace is a Precious commodity, just as the night comes to grant its coolness to relieve us from the heat of the day, so too shall I come to shelter others from the strife of this world.
Shadow: In the same way Shadow is born from light, So too is Night born from day. All things are beautiful in there own way, All things that exist are capable of great good and great evil, and so nothing and no one should ever be shunned for what it is but rather judged for its action.
Stars: The Night sky is filled with many stars, Just as the stars shine brightest in the deepest black, so too shall I shine brightest in the darkness. I will seek out the darkest places in the world and shine light into them.
Dreams: All who rest under the Stars dream, No one should ever be denied there right to a dream. I will always seek to aid anyone with a noble dream in at least some small way.
Death: All who live one day shall die, I will face death honorably, and will do my best to help others go into the eternal night in peace.

Oath of Emptiness
Altruism- I will seek out the wrongs of this world, so that I may set them right.
Humility- I am only one of many, I must place the needs of others before my own wants, but will not forget my needs for I can help no one if I am dead.
Fairness- I will seek to understand others even when I disagree with them, and will always try to understand both sides of an issue, but will act regardless should action be called for.
Mercy- All who live suffer and few who are wicked are irredeemable, I will always try to afford others the courtesy of a chance to right there own wrongs, but will not hesitate to send the unrepentant soul to there final judgment.
Reason- I will always try to act reasonably even if I may not like it, But will not let wicked deeds go unrighted for any longer than I reasonably have to.

Emptiness seems very generic. I can't understand what makes it different from others.

[Submortimer]

Also need a new word other than Penance Apparently that has associations with the Clan which well "DO NOT WANT!"

What are you talking about? Even if it did(and I've never heard that it does), it's a word with a specific definition, which is still used by many organizations today, including the church.

[L Space]

Ok, maybe its just my own theological and philosophical views talking but who else is tired of all the Death, Darkness = Evil crap? I wanna do something awesome create 3 unique variant classes. First a Death Domain Cleric devoted to the a more positive representation of Death (Yes they exist). More along the lines of Gods like (The Mythological) Hades, Anubis, and Osiris. Or something more along the lines of the Hindu god Shiva, or the oft overlooked destructive aspect of Monotheistic gods. A Similar Paladin as-well, and a Warlock Sworn to the Grim Reaper.

I am all for this! It always irked me that, in popular culture, Gods of Death are depicted as Evil. In 3.5's Deities and Demigods, Hades was made Evil, which I highly disagree with. A lot of the other Greek gods were much, MUCH worse that Hades ever was! [/end rant] I always figured that an actual Death God would most likely be True Neutral, though I could see the argument for them to be Lawful Neutral as well.

I like what you've done so far and am really interested in what you do for Clerics and Warlocks. Also, the thought of Blade Pact Warlock summoning a scythe is extremely awesome to me :smallbiggrin:.

[1Forge]

Ooh I like oath of penance! I might just add that to my homebrew campaign!

other than that i like to theme things like death around both their sides. Death gives rest and release to their final destination in my game, but when misused it can prevent souls from ascending to eternal peace. heck I even gave a good side to necromancy! (three paladins are liches so they could continue guarding a important location, and some necromancers are trained to reverse the effects of undead and evil necromancers) as for darkness you could maybe focus on its use with death to put to rest and maybe even shadows use of shading from harsh light (maybe corrupt paladins and such?)

If you dont mind I might try to homebrew an oath of penence paladin and post it on here. (I'll give you credit though)

[1Forge]

I am all for this! It always irked me that, in popular culture, Gods of Death are depicted as Evil. In 3.5's Deities and Demigods, Hades was made Evil, which I highly disagree with. A lot of the other Greek gods were much, MUCH worse that Hades ever was! [/end rant] I always figured that an actual Death God would most likely be True Neutral, though I could see the argument for them to be Lawful Neutral as well.

I like what you've done so far and am really interested in what you do for Clerics and Warlocks. Also, the thought of Blade Pact Warlock summoning a scythe is extremely awesome to me :smallbiggrin:.

In my games the "god" of death (named leth I think) is either NG or LG. He guides the flames of peoples souls into the heavens where they reach their eternal destination heaven and hell are only stopping points on the way there (or I suppose if they were really evil then they are sent to this giant black hole like pit that hell surrounds where souls never come back from exept one time where Leth himself retrieves a soul)

[Turtlemancer]

Ooh I like oath of penance! I might just add that to my home-brew campaign!

other than that i like to theme things like death around both their sides. Death gives rest and release to their final destination in my game, but when misused it can prevent souls from ascending to eternal peace. heck I even gave a good side to necromancy! (three paladins are liches so they could continue guarding a important location, and some necromancers are trained to reverse the effects of undead and evil necromancers) as for darkness you could maybe focus on its use with death to put to rest and maybe even shadows use of shading from harsh light (maybe corrupt paladins and such?)

If you don't mind I might try to home-brew an oath of penance paladin and post it on here. (I'll give you credit though)

If You like I would love to collaborate with you on the Oath of Penance. e could bounce Ideas off of each other to come up with an overall more interesting and better balanced Archetype. Honestly I wasn't interested in the Oath of Night as it was too much like a good Death Cleric or Grim Pact Warlock would be.

Still Oath of Rebirth is more encompassing. Still playing with the Idea of Penance but not necessarily being as limited. Then again Oath of Penance and Penitent Paladin do sound really cool. So we could still use there names.

Some Channel Divinities I have considered.

Gaze of Penance: The Penitent Paladin gazes into the soul of a single target. Filling there heart with dread and remorse. (Basically a single target Turn that is not limited by enemy type).
Though a AoE that only works on Humanoids (Beings capable of being both good and evil and intelligent enough to know the difference) and maybe demons. Would be an interesting alternative.

Confession: The Penitent Paladin can call an ally to air there deepest regrets to them, releasing them from any movement impairing or incapacitating effect.

Aura of Absolution: Allies within 10 feet of the paladin have advantage on any saves made against movement impairing or incapacitating effects.

Here's the lore I got worked out.

"Death is not the end."
Not all Gods of Death are mustache twirling lichgods. Some are agents of natural balance, or benevolent guides who seek to save lost souls, and ease the suffering of mourners, and as such not all Death Clerics are wicked agents of undeath and decay. Some are agents of balance, or arbiters of spiritual grace. Such is the way of the Soul Domain Cleric, bane of Undeath, Conduit for the Departed, and Friend to those left behind.

Paladin Oath of Penance
"Let the old man die, May the new man last forever."
Forgiveness- We are all flawed and I am no exception, I must always remember not to judge others based on my own viewpoint and preconceptions, but rather by trying to see there side of things.
Altruism: I will never leave a wicked deed to fester, I will always seek to right wrongs however small or trivial they may seem, but will never terry in a urgent task or forget to afford myself time to rest.
Confession- Wicked deeds and inaction, can lay heavy on the heart, I will always lend an ear to a heavy heart, and will never betray the trust of Confession, save to persurve a life.
Death: We all die, change is inevitable, I have learned it is best to put your past behind you and try to do better the next time around.
Rebirth: I have been given a second chance, because of this I will always try to afford others the same courtesy, but will never flinch in the face of evil deeds.

Grim Pact Warlock
"Sometimes even death needs a little help."
The Grim Pact warlock serves a Patron like no other. The Reaper itself has stuck a deal with this pragmatic practitioner of the Dark Arts. You collect lost souls for me, I don't collect yours. A simple proposition on paper but for the Grim Pact Warlock there duty is more than a simple contract, searching out those pesky dodgers like Sisyphus, or simply tearing into undead with eldritch arcana, it can be a hard life when your boss is death itself.

[LudicSavant]

Shiva is always kicking people in the chest.

[1Forge]

Sorry if there are a lot of mistakes in writing this at around midnight because I need a break from studying.

sometimes before someone had a chance to repent in life they die. Mercy would say they tried and forgive them, but justice demands that a price must be paid. These souls are given an option take judgement then and hope they don't get sent to the void where souls can never return. Or increase their chances of going to eternal peace by paying their debt under oath ad a paladin of penance you are given another shot at life, you awake fully grown and with all your memories. Along with that you may bear markings on your skin as reminders of your oat, if so then you may be blessed with a aaismar body. You are then given time to possibly balance your sins with deeds of charity and sacrifice. Your order also keeps the church straight when light becomes harsh and dissonent it is your job to shade the victims and if need be snuff out the flame.

the tenents of penance are as folliws:
Obeidience: This chance is your last, your debt must be paid
Animosity: This opportunity is not for fame, or recognition do not flaunt it.
Humility: Remember your sins and what kindness was presented to you.


3- divine favor, disguise self
5- darkness, detect thoughts
9- dispel magic, glyph of warding
13- guardian of faith, greater invisibility
17- dispel evil and good, banishing smite

obscuring step- as an action you may cast mistey step as long as the destination is in dim or dark shadow, even an antimagic feild cannot stop this.
Phantasmal angel- as an action you create an illusion of shadow in all hostile creatures minds within 30ft they must success a wisdom saving throw or become frightened and run away (re-rolling every turn). A successful save means they ser through the illusion and are not frightened.

Aura of shade- at 7th legal you and all friendly creatures within 10ftbhave advantage on all saving throws when standing in dark or dim light.

The sinners stain- when you are in complete darkness it is considered magical, you also give disadvantage to any attack targeting you within the shadow (creatures with devils sight ignore this).

Fallen angel- at 20th level you may activate this ability to addune the form of a fallen angel. Pitch black wings sprout from your back, a broken halo appears over your head, and 10 weights appear around you attacked to you via chains of shadow. Whenever you are attacked you can choose to activate a chain causing it to burst causing 10 necrotic damage to it. For every enemy you kill a new weight appears. These chains do not hamper movement and your wings give you a flying speed equal to you're land speed.

[1Forge]

Good night

[Ryunosuke]

Doesn't the Warlock inherently fit the 'darker powers' for a good guy role normally? They have a demon or clthlu-esque power source for paths and the latter comes with permanent mind control at level 14 (its awesome) or were you looking more into an undead theme? like a free minion?

[Turtlemancer]

Yes and no the Warlock is rarely a good Guy. Most patrons force them to be evil at least morally questionable. I am talking about character archetypes that focus on Death and Darkness as natural forces, not evil antagonistic forces.

Just read the thread this is about using death themes without the usual undead summoning and mustache twirling. The Warlock will be more like a grim reaper warlock, in short the Grim pact is ironically quite a bit less dark then its other options more along the lines of the fey pact than the Demon or Great Old One Pact.

this whole thread is about Death and Darkness Does not Equal Evil. Not Good Guys using Evil Power.

[1Forge]

I posted my settings equivalent of the oath of penance on this home brew section. Hope its balanced.

[Turtlemancer]

I posted my settings equivalent of the oath of penance on this home brew section. Hope its balanced.

Your spell list looks good, I may even use a tweaked version if your cool with it.

but.

Turning abilities are usually limited by enemy type. Thus Oath of Devotion can turn Undead and Demons and Ancients is Fey and Demons. Juts having a turn that will always work is too powerful. This Is why I was going for a single target turn that would always work. Or one that pretty much only works on humanoids and Demons.

Also Fallen Angel doesn't Fit a Non-Evil Paladin, Dark Angel, Or Ascended Demon would work better as names. The Idea of an enemy hurting themselves when they attack you in your ult is neat But I would go with something less standerd than 10 Necrotic damage How about, Drop the Chains Mechanic (You can keep them visually) and Have it deal 1D8 Necrotic Damage (OR Radiant damage to undead) whenever you are struck in melee, in addition every time you are stuck in this manner the weapon the enemy used takes a -1 to attack rolls breaking at -5 and any projectiles shot at you will be destroyed (You still take damage). (This is the same as a black pudding and it seems to be pretty balanced.) The Form will last only a minute or until combat ends.

Also how is this for mine.

Channel Divinity- Scapegoat: Anytime a ally within 30ft of the Paladin is hit by an attack they may take a reaction to use there Channel Divinity to take the Hit instead, trading places with the target of the attack. This action must be called after seeing the attack roll, but before seeing the damage roll.

Channel Divinity- Gaze of the Penitent: The Paladin may look into the eyes of a single foe, This enemy will have to make a Wisdom save, if they fail they are filled with dread and must flee until they or an ally within 5ft takes damage. In addition once they reach 30 ft away from the target they may make another will save to overcome the state every turn until they are released.

Aura of Absolution: Starting at 7th level you and any friendly creatures within 10 feet have advantage on saves against mental effects while you are conscious.
At 18th level, the range of this effect increases to 30 feet.

Reparations: At 15th Level Half of any damage done to you (Rounded down), is returned to your Healing Pool for Lay on Hands.

May use your ult with flavor text change or

Martyr:
At 20th Level the Paladin may cloak themselves in Spectral Flames (Green or Blue). A pair of Burning wings will sprout from the paladins back and a wreath of thorns will sit upon there head. In addition to looking like something off of a metal album cover the Paladin gains the following traits for 1 minute or until combat ends.

You remain alive and conscious even if you would be otherwise taken to 0 hit points. You must still make death saves.
Anytime an ally within 30ft of you takes damage you may take half of that damage instead.
Enemies that strike you or an ally within 30ft of you in this form must make a wisdom save or take 1d8 Radiant damage.

You must take a long rest before being able to use this power again.

Oath of Endings
I feel as if the Oath of Penance as cool as it is doesn't quite come up to snuff with the purpose of this thread. So I am starting on another Paladin Oath.

Channel Divinity- Sight of the Grave: The Paladin sends the fear of the Grave into the hearts of nearby Humanoid and Undead Enemies, these foes will have to make a Wisdom save, if they fail they are filled with dread and must flee until they or an ally within 5ft takes damage. In addition once they reach 30 ft away from the target they may make another will save to overcome the state every turn until they are released.

Mortal Coil- Instead of a second Channel Divinity at 3rd Level the Paladin may know ignore Resistance to Necrotic Damage, in addition anytime they would normally deal radiant Damage they will instead deal Necrotic Damage.

Aura of Dread: At Level 7 enemies within 10 ft of the Paladin are filled with apprehension granting a -1 to attack rolls and Wisdom Saves. At 15th Level this increases to 30ft and a -2 to attack rolls and wisdom saves.

Grave-bound: At Level 15 the Paladin is immune to undeath, Resistant to Necrotic Damage and my no longer gain negative levels or stat drains from those sources.

Reaper of Souls A.K.A Angel of Death: At Level 20 the Paladin may cloak themselves in shadow and sprout black raven like wings becoming like the reaper. Not Sure what this will do yet.