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antymattar
2015-11-06, 03:22 PM
Hell, I'm currently the DM of two parties of 4(separate campaigns, same world, Hoping they end up influencing each other) but I'm having a bit of difficulty when it comes to handling a larger number of enemies in combat. In general, I feel like it's just too slow. I try to get my dice prepared for, for instance, when I have three or four enemies attacking at the same time, but it just doesn't feel good enough. Sure, throwing a big deathweb at them was fun, or a raving redcap(I'm using pathfinder) but I want to spruce up my multi creature combat. Any advice on how to handle it better?

hymer
2015-11-06, 03:25 PM
You could give them individual initiative. Then you'd be handling them one at a time, often with some player stuff in between.

antymattar
2015-11-06, 03:28 PM
You could give them individual initiative. Then you'd be handling them one at a time, often with some player stuff in between.
But that's the problem. I already do give them individual initiative and it just feels too slow. But making them all move at once is too chaotic and disconcerting.

DireSickFish
2015-11-06, 03:32 PM
You sort of just have to expect combat will be a bit slower. Fast punchy fights are nice but that's usually not the best way to challenge your player or push there limits.

As the DM make sure you get initiative correct right away and are snapping through who's next right away. A lot of the time I'll group similar enemies into the same initiative so i can have this group of 4 hobgoblins attack as once then when some die only 2 will attack. I'll make 3 such groups of 4 to challenge the party and keep the groups close together so in game terms they seem like the same target. This group is holding the door, while another comes up from behind you.

Also make sure you and/or your group care about being challenged. If you're more into story and exploration and feel like 4-6 long fights every adventuring day are making the game boring perhaps change it up. You only have 2-3 big fights and the PC's will roll through them because the game isn't designed for less fights. Everyone will be having more fun if they want to roleplay there character interactions or see what twist is coming up next instead.

A lot of gamers like challenge. They like to feel the accomplishment of killing the evil tyrant after fighting through his guards in the castle. So if your going ot cut it out make sure it's for the benefit of the table.

TheAngyDM has a good article about the different ways to engage players and this falls into the challenge aspect of that.

hymer
2015-11-06, 03:33 PM
But that's the problem. I already do give them individual initiative and it just feels too slow. But making them all move at once is too chaotic and disconcerting.

How do your players feel about this?

antymattar
2015-11-06, 03:38 PM
How do your players feel about this?

They feel that its a little slow. They also said that "they dont mind" but I think that might just be them being polite. I must still try to make it faster and more efficient.

Talion
2015-11-06, 03:42 PM
Our group recently tried dividing large groups of NPCs into sections and then rolling individually for those sections. We were ambushed by about 120 foes and, while it still took a while, it was definitely expedited and, if one or two groups rolled particularly well, challenging. In that particular instance, not all 120 were on the field at the same time (it started at about 30 and 20 more showed up every round or so until there were only about 10 left). The DM felt that it worked best when he divided the enemy NPCs into 5 groups who shared their rolls (so on wave one it would have been about 6 different attack rolls). I could also see 4 groups working fairly well under the same principle. Three might be quicker but it doesn't present a good range of rolls, and adding too many more doesn't solve the problem.

Edit: However, everything the enemy had was basically melee, though there were a couple small range groups. The players, on the other hand, threw out some fire bombs to thin out the numbers a bit early on so they didn't get completely swarmed.

MadGrady
2015-11-06, 03:51 PM
How quickly are your players ready to take their turns? When their turn in intiative comes up, do they already have their action(s) ready to go? If not, set an expectation that when your turn comes up, you have to be ready. Make it reasonable, if there are a lot of baddies, the field can change a lot in between rounds, so allow for them to possibly take a new strategy, but don't allow more than 30-45 seconds to pick what they are going to do.


Also - roll attacks and damage at the same time. Have a list of your player's ACs (with notations for any buffs) and simply roll - say hit or miss and read off damage. Don't wait for them to calculate it all out. Make it a team effort - they need to let you know when they have buffs active or reactions to stop attacks, but a hit is a hit and move on quickly to the next guy

(you may already be doing this, Im just spitballing here lol)

Another way is to have an average damage roll for your baddies. They hit - cool he does X amount of damage. Every time. Raise this for bigger baddies to increase tension. OH CRAP, ONE MORE HIT AND I KNOW IM GOING DOWN. This allows you to roll fewer dice (while sad, and a main reason we play the game is to roll dice lol) and have to do fewer maths in your head.

antymattar
2015-11-06, 04:00 PM
How quickly are your players ready to take their turns? When their turn in intiative comes up, do they already have their action(s) ready to go? If not, set an expectation that when your turn comes up, you have to be ready. Make it reasonable, if there are a lot of baddies, the field can change a lot in between rounds, so allow for them to possibly take a new strategy, but don't allow more than 30-45 seconds to pick what they are going to do.


Also - roll attacks and damage at the same time. Have a list of your player's ACs (with notations for any buffs) and simply roll - say hit or miss and read off damage. Don't wait for them to calculate it all out. Make it a team effort - they need to let you know when they have buffs active or reactions to stop attacks, but a hit is a hit and move on quickly to the next guy

(you may already be doing this, Im just spitballing here lol)

Another way is to have an average damage roll for your baddies. They hit - cool he does X amount of damage. Every time. Raise this for bigger baddies to increase tension. OH CRAP, ONE MORE HIT AND I KNOW IM GOING DOWN. This allows you to roll fewer dice (while sad, and a main reason we play the game is to roll dice lol) and have to do fewer maths in your head.

Thanks, this is some good advice. I will make a note of getting a copy of their essential stats right next to me next time, same goes for the average damage.

TheCountAlucard
2015-11-07, 10:55 PM
The new edition of Exalted has some pretty sweet rules for "battle groups" (large bunches of reasonably-similar enemies fighting as a group) that you might crib from. Basically it acts as a template applied to the base critter (a goblin becomes a mob of goblins, a soldier becomes an army, et cetera.), and various factors (including supernatural powers and the group's size and discipline) determine the bonuses it gets to its stats.

hifidelity2
2015-11-09, 08:10 AM
I have only tried to do a lot of combatants in D&D a couple of times. First time it was slow and we experimented with individual initiatives, party v all monsters etc

Using average damage is useful and does remove the need for an extra Die
If you trust your players get them to roll for the monsters – all you do is direct the battle – so you move the monsters and tell they players “Bob 10 orcs are attacking you, here are their stats, Dave you have 20 Kobols” etc etc

You can then just roll die for the main baddies

Another option (which came from an old War Gaming system call Reaper) was

Work out what is needed to hit the PC as a percentage (so if they need 15 on a D20 they have a 25% chance of a hit)
Add all those percentages together any score above 100% is a autohit – so if Bob above is being attacked by 10 Orcs and they have a 25% chance to hit then that is at total of 250% - so 2 Hits and a 50.50 of the third (so you only need to roll 1 “to hit “ die)
Roll Damage (or use the average)

This can be quite lethal but then if you have put yourself in a position to allow 10 people to attack you at once then it’s your fault (or good DMing)

Thinker
2015-11-09, 08:35 AM
7th Sea had a great solution to this problem. It's been a while, but as I recall, foes were divided into 3 types, basically mooks, elites, and bosses. Mooks were groups of enemies that were only powerful when there was a lot of them. Every additional mook in the group raised the group's stats by 1. So, a group of 8 would have +8 to attack, a group of 9 would be +10, etc. Damage would directly kill that number of mooks in the group. For DnD, you could use CR as a multiplier. They act on the same turn, occupy the same space, and attack at the same time. For 5 CR-2 ogres, give them +10 to attack, make them do 2d6+10 damage when they hit, and make it so every 2 damage kills one of them. They would be effectively as strong as a group of 10 CR-1 orcs. Don't let mooks use special abilities, spells, etc. Elites are solitary foes who act on their own turn and have some special abilities. They typically lead mooks. Bosses are full encounters with multiple abilities.

Micah Watt
2015-11-09, 08:57 PM
I use the following methods to handle large groups;

Give them a tactical plan of distribution before combat

Roll 1 initiative roll for all (adjust for varying initiative bonuses off the one roll)

Roll all hit rolls / saves as a group (i.e. Handful of dice at once)

Average damage for large groups of the same creature (i.e. A horde of orcs)

When they take 'group damage' (i.e. Fireballs etc) I assume the most injured take the failed saves, and let them be whittled away. This reduces numbers and makes the party feel like they are 'advancing' through the fight.

Hope this helps.