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Yechezkiel
2007-05-30, 08:43 PM
Can anyone cite any +0 l.a. Tiefling varients (homebrew or official)?

I'm also looking for a good system for buying off level adjustment for the game I want to run.

Starsinger
2007-05-30, 08:54 PM
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a

There ya go

Yechezkiel
2007-05-30, 09:10 PM
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a

There ya go

Thank ya much.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-05-30, 10:19 PM
Thank ya much.
This is not a LA 0 Tiefling, this is a monster class progression; it functions differently. You have to spend your next level buying off the abilities.

Here is my personal take on Tieflings:
Tieflings:
- Outsider (Native)
- +2 to Intelligence, -2 to Constitution: Tieflings retain the diabolical cleverness of their forebears, but their physical connection to evil weakens the integrity of their bodies.
- Resistance to Cold, Electricity and Fire equal to your 1/2 your HD. Like their ancestors, Tieflings repel mortal elements.
- Dark Mark; Each Tiefling has some sort of physical manifestation of their ancestry, such as slightly spined skin inherited from a Hamatula, vestigal wings from a Nalfeshnee, or predatory, slitted pupils from a Succubus. How someone will react to such knowledge is not universal, but it is most often negative. Concealing a Dark Mark requires a Disguise Check made at a -5.
- Summon Legacy (Sp): Vestiges of Fiendish Power pump through a Tiefling's veins. At character creation, Tiefling's choose a single 1st level spell with the Evil or Darkness descriptor, they gain that ability as a Spell Like Ability usable once per day. At 5th level, they may replace that spell with a 2nd level spell with the same descriptor. They may repeat this process with a 3rd level spell at 10th level, a 4th level spell at 15th level, and a 5th level spell at 20th level.

Corncracker
2007-05-30, 10:30 PM
EL 0 Tiefling are in the Eberon setting I believe. Maby Faurun? Not only can I not spell the names, but I can't remember which the LA +0 Tiefling is.

Ah well.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-05-30, 10:40 PM
EL 0 Tiefling are in the Eberon setting I believe. Maby Faurun? Not only can I not spell the names, but I can't remember which the LA +0 Tiefling is.

Ah well.
Not in Eberron, maybe in Faerun. They definitely have a lot of redundant subraces.

Aximili
2007-05-30, 10:44 PM
In my gaming group, we homebrew that tiefling and aasimar are templates to be added to humanoinds, instead of actual races.

Kurobara
2007-05-30, 10:54 PM
Not in Eberron, maybe in Faerun. They definitely have a lot of redundant subraces.

Lesser Tiefling, near the end of Player's Guide to Faerun. (Well, Lesser Planetouched as one joint entry.) Basically just makes them type Humanoid (Planetouched) instead of Outsider (Native).

Douglas
2007-05-30, 11:00 PM
I'm sure there are any number of homebrew versions, but the only official variant is in the back of the Player's Guide to Faerun. The only difference from the LA +1 version is that their type is Humanoid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#humanoidType) (Planetouched) rather than Outsider (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#outsiderType) (Native) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#nativeSubtype). The Planetouched subtype renders them vulnerable to things that normally only affect outsiders. If a spell or effect can target either humanoids or outsiders, it can affect "lesser" Tieflings. Both Charm Person and Banishment work against them, for example, where Charm Person would automatically fail against a normal Tiefling because they aren't humanoid.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-05-30, 11:59 PM
I'm sure there are any number of homebrew versions, but the only official variant is in the back of the Player's Guide to Faerun. The only difference from the LA +1 version is that their type is Humanoid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#humanoidType) (Planetouched) rather than Outsider (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#outsiderType) (Native) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#nativeSubtype). The Planetouched subtype renders them vulnerable to things that normally only affect outsiders. If a spell or effect can target either humanoids or outsiders, it can affect "lesser" Tieflings. Both Charm Person and Banishment work against them, for example, where Charm Person would automatically fail against a normal Tiefling because they aren't humanoid.

That doesn't follow the balance rules; even without the Outsider Type (which is not too powerful for an LA 0) They have a net bonus to abilities, three types of energy resistance at 5, an (albiet bad) spell like ability.

Use them if you want, but know that that isn't a balanced race. FR stuff rarely is.

Bassetking
2007-05-31, 12:25 AM
Just for the sake of truth, the "Planetouched" descriptor does not "Just make them humanoid".

It means that they are affected by both spells and effects that target humanoids, and spells and effects that target outsiders.

brian c
2007-05-31, 01:00 AM
Just for the sake of truth, the "Planetouched" descriptor does not "Just make them humanoid".

It means that they are affected by both spells and effects that target humanoids, and spells and effects that target outsiders.

No, the Humanoid(Planetouched) makes them Humanoid.

MaxMahem
2007-05-31, 03:39 PM
Bah, even if you allow them in with unbalanced stats (which I recommend doing) they are still perfectly well balanced with the single most popular race choice, Humans. For many, if not most, builds that extra feat humans get at first level is much more valuable then a +2 net stat adjustment and other minor class features (like minor energy resistance). Optimizers here certainly know about it, yet humans are still the overwhelming choice for optimized builds.

Now this would make planetouched species superior to other non-human races like elves and dwarfs, but again it's not the planetouched fault that non-human races suck. I generaly tend to think that to catch up with humans all other races probably need a +2 net stat adjustment and some other minor features.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-05-31, 03:49 PM
Bah, even if you allow them in with unbalanced stats (which I recommend doing) they are still perfectly well balanced with the single most popular race choice, Humans. For many, if not most, builds that extra feat humans get at first level is much more valuable then a +2 net stat adjustment and other minor class features (like minor energy resistance). Optimizers here certainly know about it, yet humans are still the overwhelming choice for optimized builds.

Now this would make planetouched species superior to other non-human races like elves and dwarfs, but again it's not the planetouched fault that non-human races suck. I generaly tend to think that to catch up with humans all other races probably need a +2 net stat adjustment and some other minor features.
So the solution is to run the game as a crapshoot where people run on the claim that humans are overpowered and therefore attempts to build or balance other races are screwed from the beginning?
I'm sorry, but my biggest pet peeve in design is people saying "game balance sucks, so go nuts."

If Humans are too good (which I think they are) then they need to be dealt with; take away the bonus feat, add other small abilities to fill them in somewhat, and you're in a better position. Is it perfect? No...but it's a better solution than throwing all the other races down the toilet because one problem exists.

MaxMahem
2007-05-31, 04:03 PM
So the solution is to run the game as a crapshoot where people run on the claim that humans are overpowered and therefore attempts to build or balance other races are screwed from the beginning?
I'm sorry, but my biggest pet peeve in design is people saying "game balance sucks, so go nuts."

If Humans are too good (which I think they are) then they need to be dealt with; take away the bonus feat, add other small abilities to fill them in somewhat, and you're in a better position. Is it perfect? No...but it's a better solution than throwing all the other races down the toilet because one problem exists.
I tend to agree with you're approach, except in this case. I don't think that the concept of giving humans an extra feat at first level is necessarily overpowered, it's an excellent way to give some uniqueness and extra capabilities to a race that would otherwise be bland and lacking in any special qualities.

The problem is that the other races (as you apparent agree) are horribly underpowered in comparison to humans. Outside of RP reasons, who in there right mind would play a half-orc or half-elf? Now you could rack you're brain and try and come up with some new special quality to give humans beside the extra feat, but this which would be incredibly difficult as special qualities are basically defined as 'abilities humans don't have.' Whatever you came up with is not likely to be as simple and elegant as giving them an extra feat, and will probably make them less powerful than the other races.

Or you could go through and slap a +2 net stat adjustment on most PC races. I think this is the simpler and more elegant solution. Frankly, most races still would not be attractive compared to human even with a +2 net stat adjustment and a smattering of minor abilities. But it would help to even the gap which is now pretty firmly in humans favor.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-05-31, 04:28 PM
I tend to agree with you're approach, except in this case. I don't think that the concept of giving humans an extra feat at first level is necessarily overpowered, it's an excellent way to give some uniqueness and extra capabilities to a race that would otherwise be bland and lacking in any special qualities.

The problem is that the other races (as you apparent agree) are horribly underpowered in comparison to humans. Outside of RP reasons, who in there right mind would play a half-orc or half-elf? Now you could rack you're brain and try and come up with some new special quality to give humans beside the extra feat, but this which would be incredibly difficult as special qualities are basically defined as 'abilities humans don't have.' Whatever you came up with is not likely to be as simple and elegant as giving them an extra feat, and will probably make them less powerful than the other races.

Or you could go through and slap a +2 net stat adjustment on most PC races. I think this is the simpler and more elegant solution. Frankly, most races still would not be attractive compared to human even with a +2 net stat adjustment and a smattering of minor abilities. But it would help to even the gap which is now pretty firmly in humans favor.

First, I'll apologize for the somewhat harsh tone earlier, I find what you say very reasonable but unfortunately I was tangential about a personal peeve.

Half-Elves are a bad example, they are famously underpowered. I always add the extra skill-points of Humans to the race in my games. Half-Orcs are better, but they are also one of the worse races.

You're right in saying that slapping a +2 net stat adjustment still wouldn't be as good as humans, but if you're accepting that even if other races were given a significant boost they're still worse than humans, that really suggests that working with humans would be much better. Would it make more sense to edit every race except humans?

I think a good compromise would be to give every race a bonus feat (not something build specific or severely balance-altering, but somehting flavorful and better than Toughness) and let Humans choose any one of these feats, that way they couldn't hypercharge builds or take really spectacular feats but they'd still show versatility.

What I really think this shows is the problem of the feat system: there are too many that can do too much and people have too few choices. Most people only go as far as 9-12th level, that's 4-5 feats. An extra feat is huge. Not to mention that some give +2 to two skills and some let you double Power Attack damage. You lose between 1-3 feats qualifying for prestige classes, some require wasting feats on Pre-Reqs (Spring Attack) get no extra choices unless you're a fighter, or a human.

Not that I have a solution (yet), I just thought this needed to be said.

MaxMahem
2007-05-31, 10:46 PM
First, I'll apologize for the somewhat harsh tone earlier, I find what you say very reasonable but unfortunately I was tangential about a personal peeve.
No problem.


Half-Elves are a bad example, they are famously underpowered. I always add the extra skill-points of Humans to the race in my games. Half-Orcs are better, but they are also one of the worse races.
I did pick the two obvious extreme examples, but again all the base races even dwarves, halflings, and elves come up short when measured against the human standard.


You're right in saying that slapping a +2 net stat adjustment still wouldn't be as good as humans, but if you're accepting that even if other races were given a significant boost they're still worse than humans, that really suggests that working with humans would be much better. Would it make more sense to edit every race except humans?
I don't think a +2 net stat adjustment brings them up to par, but it's pretty close. If you have build that simply isn't going to require a lot of feats then the +2 net stat adjustment would be attractive to you, especially when combined with the smattering of other minor abilities other races get.

Again, I restate my point that it would be very hard to come up with a alteration to humans that was a simple and elegant as giving them an extra feat. It really is a good solution to the problem of how to make plane baseline humans unique. Failing in a way to simply edit humans to bring them in balance, I look for a simple way to bring the other races up to there level. The +2 net stat adjustment is a very simple way to do this, and makes other races advantageous in certain situations. And in reality its not that hard an adjustment to make for most races. Just pick a penalty and eliminate it, or give them a bonus to one stat of you're choice.


I think a good compromise would be to give every race a bonus feat (not something build specific or severely balance-altering, but somehting flavorful and better than Toughness) and let Humans choose any one of these feats, that way they couldn't hypercharge builds or take really spectacular feats but they'd still show versatility.

What I really think this shows is the problem of the feat system: there are too many that can do too much and people have too few choices. Most people only go as far as 9-12th level, that's 4-5 feats. An extra feat is huge. Not to mention that some give +2 to two skills and some let you double Power Attack damage. You lose between 1-3 feats qualifying for prestige classes, some require wasting feats on Pre-Reqs (Spring Attack) get no extra choices unless you're a fighter, or a human.

Not that I have a solution (yet), I just thought this needed to be said.
I have no problem with this. It's the way things are handled in feat-heavy d20 modern and the way it will apparently be handled in the upcoming star-wars saga. However you are now moving beyond the realm of minor modification to the races, and to me the simple +2 bonus to a stat seems a simpler solution, but both could probably work.

PMDM
2007-05-31, 10:59 PM
The only reason that the Assimars and Tieflings have a +1 LA is becuase of their 5 resistance to engery attacks. Drop it to 2 or 3, and you should be O.K. that's how I run my games, and they never seem overpowered. By the time you hit high levels, the resistance hardly matters, compared to all the other good gear you have.

P.S. Look at my sig.

Helgraf
2007-05-31, 11:05 PM
First, I'll apologize for the somewhat harsh tone earlier, I find what you say very reasonable but unfortunately I was tangential about a personal peeve.

Half-Elves are a bad example, they are famously underpowered. I always add the extra skill-points of Humans to the race in my games. Half-Orcs are better, but they are also one of the worse races.

You're right in saying that slapping a +2 net stat adjustment still wouldn't be as good as humans, but if you're accepting that even if other races were given a significant boost they're still worse than humans, that really suggests that working with humans would be much better. Would it make more sense to edit every race except humans?

I think a good compromise would be to give every race a bonus feat (not something build specific or severely balance-altering, but somehting flavorful and better than Toughness) and let Humans choose any one of these feats, that way they couldn't hypercharge builds or take really spectacular feats but they'd still show versatility.

What I really think this shows is the problem of the feat system: there are too many that can do too much and people have too few choices. Most people only go as far as 9-12th level, that's 4-5 feats. An extra feat is huge. Not to mention that some give +2 to two skills and some let you double Power Attack damage. You lose between 1-3 feats qualifying for prestige classes, some require wasting feats on Pre-Reqs (Spring Attack) get no extra choices unless you're a fighter, or a human.

Not that I have a solution (yet), I just thought this needed to be said.

Herein is why I love the Spycraft 2nd Edition method. Choose an item from two columns; one provides your stat adjustment and some minor abilities, the other provides your "bonus feat" (or the pool you can choose it from) and some minor abilities.

Converting to D&D, I have no problems letting humans choose any single feat they qualify for, but at the same time, give each race a pool of feats to choose a free feat from.

Of course, I like giving everyone one free "background style" feat (things like Skill Focus:X or one of the 2skills@+2 feats, or certain "at 1st level only" ones, like Education from the EBCS.) Yes, it _could_ be used to ramp certain prestige classes, but mostly it gives you a minor benefit that doesn't severely impact balance, and gives a certain flavour to the build. The tricky part is mostly deciding which feats qualify and which are off limits. My rule of thumb is combat feats are off limits. Feats whose benefit is primarily combat mechanical (Combat Casting, anyone) are also on the kabob. Item Creation feats and Metamagic feats (and their Psi-equivalents) are also no-goes for this choice.

I'm waffly on Wild Talent - it's background appropriate, but opens the door to so very much cheese. I'm more inclined to make that a feat you need to select normally.

Dark Tira
2007-06-01, 12:55 AM
The only reason that the Assimars and Tieflings have a +1 LA is becuase of their 5 resistance to engery attacks. Drop it to 2 or 3, and you should be O.K. that's how I run my games, and they never seem overpowered. By the time you hit high levels, the resistance hardly matters, compared to all the other good gear you have.

P.S. Look at my sig.

Actually the outsider type is probably the biggest factor. The immunity to person spells, alter self cheese, free simple and martial weapons proficiencies, darkvision, etc makes it far better than the relatively insignificant resistances.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-06-01, 02:14 AM
Herein is why I love the Spycraft 2nd Edition method. Choose an item from two columns; one provides your stat adjustment and some minor abilities, the other provides your "bonus feat" (or the pool you can choose it from) and some minor abilities.

Converting to D&D, I have no problems letting humans choose any single feat they qualify for, but at the same time, give each race a pool of feats to choose a free feat from.

Of course, I like giving everyone one free "background style" feat (things like Skill Focus:X or one of the 2skills@+2 feats, or certain "at 1st level only" ones, like Education from the EBCS.) Yes, it _could_ be used to ramp certain prestige classes, but mostly it gives you a minor benefit that doesn't severely impact balance, and gives a certain flavour to the build. The tricky part is mostly deciding which feats qualify and which are off limits. My rule of thumb is combat feats are off limits. Feats whose benefit is primarily combat mechanical (Combat Casting, anyone) are also on the kabob. Item Creation feats and Metamagic feats (and their Psi-equivalents) are also no-goes for this choice.

I'm waffly on Wild Talent - it's background appropriate, but opens the door to so very much cheese. I'm more inclined to make that a feat you need to select normally.
I play Spycraft and I think their system for it works very well (keeping in mind they also have a better skill system so bonuses to skill checks/caps are much more important than they are in D&D) Possibly D&D could just use a variant origin/talent system and make race choices purely aesthethic (as national origins are in Spycraft)


As for the outsider type, it seems better than it is. It seems impressive because you're immune to ___ person spells, but all this really does is cause the DM to target other players with such spells, and this is a smaller, less inclusive spell-set than players often realize.
Simple/Martial Weapons are nice, but it's often a situation wherein classes that need them (melee) already have them, classes that don't already have them (casters) don't need them and only a few classes get some minor aid (clerics and rogues)
It's a benefit, but not the capstone that people see it as.
Alter Self cheese is a problem with Alter Self. Polymorph sucks, that's the end of it.


I agree that Human's are elegant, but unfortunately that's the problem. They're so clean and useful, it makes it hard to imagine editing them in any way, even if they need it.