PDA

View Full Version : SRD Base Class Power Order?



F.H. Zebedee
2007-05-30, 11:40 PM
What would you say is the order of power for the base classes, from highest to lowest? This is just based on regular adventuring, not PVP or power builds.

My personal opinion is:
*Druid (Just too overwhelming. Solid physical capabilities under wild shape, decent bonus abilities, and solid casting. Can churn out makeshift allies like nobody's business.)
*Wizard (Versatility, versatility, versatility. Battlefield control knows no bounds for good ol' pointy hat.)
*Cleric (The ability to both cast and become combat monsters makes them vicious. I've never seen them be AS bad as wizards or druids, but I think it's because they're usually a bit more reserved.)
*Sorceror (Not as versatile as the wizard, but still a powerful caster. The increased spells/day make them a bit more fun to play, if less powerful.)
*Ranger (I've found that they usually are pretty dang good. Solid bonus feats, animal companion for flanking bonuses and such, and some casting ability for a bit more oomph.)
*Rogue (Great class. A little lacking in combat, but UMD and Sneak Attack means that they can contribute a lot in almost any situation.)
*Paladin (Like a fighter, but with class abilities instead of bonus feats. Mount is the real swing factor here. Numbers are a huge advantage.)
*Bard (Just not as great as they should be. Need a kick of OOMPH to get them into gear. You know, just crank up all of their powers by a wee bit, and then they'd be just right for the every-tasker.)
*Barbarian (Usually. Depends on the builds and the battle for their comparison to fighter.)
*Fighter (Okay, I suppose, but just not up to snuff. Needs some kind of extra flavor/boost to make them fully worthwhile.)
*Monk (Got virtually nothing useful. In a full party, they have some uses... But really, Rogues have every useful capability they have, but better. Basically, they need to find their own niche to fill, because the Sneaking/Casting/Smacking/Healing group has no need for them.)

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-05-30, 11:46 PM
This has been done to death, but in general, the concensus is...

Wizard. Batman at his worst.
Druid. CoDzilla
Cleric. Other CoDzilla
Sorcerer. Only lacking versitility to be in the top 3.
Barbarian. king of the tank classes
Rogue. Skillmonky
Ranger. Skillmonk/Tank hybrid
Pally. hard to land spells on
Bard. Diplomancy FTW. Sadly, his only trick
Fighter. Feats are nice, but not everything
Monk. Sure, you can say 'no' to almost anything. Unfortunately, that's all you can do.

JaronK
2007-05-30, 11:59 PM
I'd put Ranger above Rogue. Full BAB is nice, and their spells put them over the top in my book. Otherwise, I agree with that last poster (though it's worth saying that at many levels the Druid beats the Wizard. It's only at top levels where the Wizard takes the cake).

JaronK

Dhavaer
2007-05-31, 12:00 AM
Wizard
Druid
Cleric
Sorcerer
Ranger
Rogue
Bard
Barbarian
Paladin
Fighter
Monk

Orzel
2007-05-31, 12:51 AM
I agree with Dhavaer's list mostly
The order of power for classes excluding psionics and other weird stuff is pretty much:

Full access arcanists
Divine Monsters
Partial access arcanists
Divine non-monsters
True Skill monkeys
Partial caster skill monkeys
Partial caster warriors
Noncasting skill monkeys
Noncasting warriors
Random junk

Arcane > Divine > Skills > Full BAB > Random junk

ZeroNumerous
2007-05-31, 12:56 AM
Druid
Cleric
Wizard
Sorcerer
Rogue.

Theres no one else.

JaronK
2007-05-31, 01:11 AM
I agree with Dhavaer's list mostly
The order of power for classes excluding psionics and other weird stuff is pretty much:

Full access arcanists
Divine Monsters
Partial access arcanists
Divine non-monsters
True Skill monkeys
Partial caster skill monkeys
Partial caster warriors
Noncasting skill monkeys
Noncasting warriors
Random junk

Arcane > Divine > Skills > Full BAB > Random junk

I disagree... I'd put ToB melee classes above skill monkeys. Let's face it... other than finding traps, Skill Monkeys really can't do that much. Knock is better than open lock. Heck, summoned critters can disable traps better most of the time. Invisibility/Scrying/Polymorph stunts do the stealth thing better. Also, Archivists are divine, and they very clearly beat Wizards... and Druids and Clerics both beat out Sorcerers by a long shot.

JaronK

Dhavaer
2007-05-31, 01:12 AM
I disagree... I'd put ToB melee classes above skill monkeys.

True, but this is SRD only, although most people seem to be ignoring Psionics.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-05-31, 01:19 AM
True, but this is SRD only, although most people seem to be ignoring Psionics.

Ahh, you have a point. I'd put the Psion up there just under Cleric, psycic warrior just under all the full casters, and Soulknife down to dead last.

skywalker
2007-05-31, 01:20 AM
20-th level monks have 3 +12 saves. Their hands are magic, lawful, and adamantine. Those hands do 2d10 damage on 5 attacks per round. They can move 90ft. without charging. Stunning fist owns things that are weak to it. So it all depends on what you're trying to kill.

Dhavaer
2007-05-31, 01:21 AM
Ahh, you have a point. I'd put the Psion up there just under Cleric, psycic warrior just under all the full casters, and Soulknife down to dead last.

I don't know, from what I've heard of soulknives they stand up fairly well to monks. I haven't read the class for a while, though.

JaronK
2007-05-31, 01:24 AM
20-th level monks have 3 +12 saves. Their hands are magic, lawful, and adamantine. Those hands do 2d10 damage on 5 attacks per round. They can move 90ft. without charging. Stunning fist owns things that are weak to it. So it all depends on what you're trying to kill.

Just no. Go read the monk thread if you want to claim that monks are somehow better than fighters of their level.

And yeah, without ToB pure melees are near the bottom.

JaronK

Orzel
2007-05-31, 01:26 AM
I disagree... I'd put ToB melee classes above skill monkeys. Let's face it... other than finding traps, Skill Monkeys really can't do that much. Knock is better than open lock. Heck, summoned critters can disable traps better most of the time. Invisibility/Scrying/Polymorph stunts do the stealth thing better. Also, Archivists are divine, and they very clearly beat Wizards... and Druids and Clerics both beat out Sorcerers by a long shot.

JaronK

ToB, ToM, and Archivists count as weird stuff.
Partial access arcanists = Sorcerer.
The role of Skillmonkeys is to do the 3 things magic can't do well: stealth, basic dectection, and long term communication.

Jack Mann
2007-05-31, 01:29 AM
Casters can replace skillmonkeys, but not with the same insolent ease with which they replace fighter types.

JaronK
2007-05-31, 01:37 AM
ToB, ToM, and Archivists count as weird stuff.
Partial access arcanists = Sorcerer.
The role of Skillmonkeys is to do the 3 things magic can't do well: stealth, basic dectection, and long term communication.

Stealth is better done with Wildshape than with rogues... also Divination, since many divinations can't be easily detected. Meanwhile, no matter how good your hide skill is, Mindsight or various other powers just win.

Basic detection is best done by Druids and other wisdom casters, not rogues. Long term communication... that's all the arcanist's department, though divines can do it too.

I dunno, I'd put the Barbarian over skill monkeys. At least he does his thing well.

JaronK

LordLocke
2007-05-31, 01:39 AM
Wizard- Batman
Druid- Godzilla
Cleric- Holy Godzilla
Sorcerer- Robin
Rogue- Skillmonkey with damage potential
Paladin- Self-sufficient tank with divine backup.
Bard- Lesser skillmonkey with slight enchantment backup
Barbarian- Melee monster with little other use.
Ranger- Two-trick pony
Fighter- One-trick pony
Monk- No-trick pony

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-05-31, 01:40 AM
20-th level monks have 3 +12 saves. Their hands are magic, lawful, and adamantine. Those hands do 2d10 damage on 5 attacks per round. They can move 90ft. without charging. Stunning fist owns things that are weak to it. So it all depends on what you're trying to kill.

After about level 10, everything not immune to stunning fist either has an insane fort save or has ways of not being hit. For example, any Wizard worth his spellbook has a Mirror Image with your name on it. Congratulations, you've got less than a 15% chance of hitting the real one. Assuming you can catch him in the first place. It's hard to outrun a DimDoor...

So yea, your damage sucks compared to a decently equipped two-handed weapon fighter (thanks to 1.5x Str rating), you've got worse AC (thank you Mithral Full Plate and Dancing Shield), you've got fewer hit points, and you're less likely to hit anything. About the only thing you can do is say No to stupid wizards who go Evoc and start chunking AE elemental damage with Reflex saves allowed and most Save or Suck will save spells.

Behold_the_Void
2007-05-31, 01:41 AM
Rogues and Bards get UMD, which should count for something since it can be quite powerful if used properly.

ZeroNumerous
2007-05-31, 01:41 AM
The role of Skillmonkeys is to do the 3 things magic can't do well: stealth, basic dectection, and long term communication.

Invisibility + Books of Elvenkind. The entire Divination school. And Missive. I do believe that removes skillmonkies' purpose.

The real reason a skill monkey is around is being the 'Face', but even that can be easily replaced, if your party is evil, through Charm Person.

And again, the heirarchy of power is as follows:

Cleric
Druid
Wizard
Sorceror

Everything else is irrelevant.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-05-31, 01:44 AM
Invisibility + Books of Elvenkind. The entire Divination school. And Missive. I do believe that removes skillmonkies' purpose.

The real reason a skill monkey is around is being the 'Face', but that can even be easily replaced, if your party is evil, through Charm Person.

And again, the heirarchy of power is as follows:

Cleric
Druid
Wizard
Sorceror

Everything else is irrelevant.

Missive? You mean Telepathic Bond, right? Perenancied. Much more efficent.

And really, I don't consider Barbarian irrelevant. Doing 300+ damage a hit consistantly has to count for something. Plus he gets in the mooks way so the casters can do their thing without the caster having to constantly cast Summon Monster type spells.

Yechezkiel
2007-05-31, 01:44 AM
Rogues and Bards get UMD, which should count for something since it can be quite powerful if used properly.

Can anyone cite a Use Magic Device post/guide?

ZeroNumerous
2007-05-31, 01:45 AM
And really, I don't consider Barbarian irrelevant. Doing 300+ damage a hit consistantly has to count for something. Plus he gets in the mooks way so the casters can do their thing without the caster having to constantly cast Summon Monster type spells.

Charging Barbarian: Forcecage.

Barbarian Meatshield: Xcp/day hirelings. (Again, if evil)

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-05-31, 01:45 AM
Rogues and Bards get UMD, which should count for something since it can be quite powerful if used properly.

So basically, being able to sort of pretend you're a wizard with no spellbook and no spells by being able to use scrolls and wands is supposed to count for something? Come on, even if you take away his entire spell list, a Wizard can do this without needing to make a roll.

Try again.

JaronK
2007-05-31, 01:48 AM
Can anyone cite a Use Magic Device post/guide?

Not that I know of, but if it helps:

Keep the skill high. An Admiral's Bicorn (Stormwrack) is the best way to do this, as it offers a +7 to UMD, along with other handy benefits. Use the MIC's rules for making magic items to add the effect of a Circlet of Persuasion to it, and now it's +10.

If you want to really max it out, little beats Marshal 1/Warlock X. Throw in Chameleon 2 and now you can craft absolutely everything for later use.

Best uses: Eternal Wands of Shrink Item and Explosive Runes rock. Eternal Wands of nice Paladin or Ranger buffs are also handy. Wands of Remedy Moderate Wounds are cheap (2nd level spell) and grant 26 hitpoints healed per use... very nice indeed.

But I digress.

Yechezkiel
2007-05-31, 01:52 AM
Not that I know of, but if it helps:

Keep the skill high. An Admiral's Bicorn (Stormwrack) is the best way to do this, as it offers a +7 to UMD, along with other handy benefits. Use the MIC's rules for making magic items to add the effect of a Circlet of Persuasion to it, and now it's +10.

If you want to really max it out, little beats Marshal 1/Warlock X. Throw in Chameleon 2 and now you can craft absolutely everything for later use.

Best uses: Eternal Wands of Shrink Item and Explosive Runes rock. Eternal Wands of nice Paladin or Ranger buffs are also handy. Wands of Remedy Moderate Wounds are cheap (2nd level spell) and grant 26 hitpoints healed per use... very nice indeed.

But I digress.


I was thinking Wands of Divine Power for Rogues (+ maybe Power Attack).

JaronK
2007-05-31, 01:55 AM
I was thinking Wands of Divine Power for Rogues (+ maybe Power Attack).

Meh, the duration is too short and it consumes a standard action to use. Without Divine Persistance, Divine Power really isn't all that great.

JaronK

Orzel
2007-05-31, 01:55 AM
Invisibility + Books of Elvenkind- still make noise. LOL +5 on Move siliently. "What's that noise? Purged" or True Seeing.


The entire Divination school- Outside of Forsight you have to know X is coming ot detect it

Charm Person/Monster- Long term. I mean not reversing what you made them do after you leave.

ZeroNumerous
2007-05-31, 02:02 AM
Orzel: Who's going to purge it? By the same basis of cross-classing, the enemy caster can't hear/see the person using the boots.

Wizard. He's not Batman for nothing.

And how is a Rogue going to do that any better or worse? Besides that, if you're going to be -that- way..

Suggestion: I suggest you always do what I say, and do not try to undo it in the future.

Renegade Paladin
2007-05-31, 02:03 AM
Charging Barbarian: Forcecage.
Kiss your character wealth goodbye if you plan on slinging that around on anything resembling a regular basis.

JaronK
2007-05-31, 02:06 AM
Kiss your character wealth goodbye if you plan on slinging that around on anything resembling a regular basis.

Unless you're a Shadowcraft Mage, in which case you keep that spell for kicking butt when you don't feel like casting free Apocalypses from the Sky and Armaggedons.

JaronK

Orzel
2007-05-31, 02:12 AM
Orzel: Who's going to purge it? By the same basis of cross-classing, the enemy caster can't hear/see the person using the boots.

Wizard. He's not Batman for nothing.

And how is a Rogue going to do that any better or worse? Besides that, if you're going to be -that- way..

Suggestion: I suggest you always do what I say, and do not try to undo it in the future.

The boots is only +5 to MS. It's junk.

At higher levels things have true seeing or see invisiblity. What party doesn't cast see invisibilty or tue seeing on the party detector after hearing footsteps with no source.

JaronK
2007-05-31, 02:18 AM
You know, there are spells that deal with the whole noise making issue... and a Druid hides better than a Rogue in many cases. Besides, Mindsight and similar abilities completely trump hide anyway.

JaronK

Renegade Paladin
2007-05-31, 02:22 AM
Unless you're a Shadowcraft Mage, in which case you keep that spell for kicking butt when you don't feel like casting free Apocalypses from the Sky and Armaggedons.

JaronK
Cool. Get back to me when shadowcraft mages are in the SRD.

JaronK
2007-05-31, 02:22 AM
Fair enough. Can the Wizard just cast Grease under the charging Barbarian then?

JaronK

Orzel
2007-05-31, 02:27 AM
That whole Druids are the best scout is a lie. That "Tweet. I'm a harmless bird" junk should only work on good and nuetral humaniods, fey, and giants. Everything else kills/eats harmless animals. When you start casting 2-3 spells to make up for your clanging feet; you should have hired a rogue, bard, or ranger.

Mindsight and similar abilities. I hate them.

Yechezkiel
2007-05-31, 02:28 AM
Fair enough. Can the Wizard just cast Grease under the charging Barbarian then?

JaronK

No! He must Contingency his Time Stop for charging Barbarians and obliterate him from on high, invisibly, and partially in another Dimensional Plane.

Yechezkiel
2007-05-31, 02:30 AM
That whole Druids are the best scout is a lie. That "Tweet. I'm a harmless bird" junk should only work on good and nuetral humaniods, fey...

Fey, and many others should pretty much be aware of Druids and some of their more blatant tricks.

ZeroNumerous
2007-05-31, 02:48 AM
Kiss your character wealth goodbye if you plan on slinging that around on anything resembling a regular basis.

Does it have to be on a regular basis? How often does a Barbarian charge a Wizard? How often does it happen after the tales of a horrific death happening to the first Barbarian to try it?

How does Charm Person, Grease, or Web factor into the equation?

Orzel: Casting two or three spells? Invisibility and some boots I bought do not make two or three spells. It makes one spell and some damn good boots.

And again, it's +5 to MS versus the other wizard's +0 to Listen. And honestly, it's irrelevant. The moment you hear something is the moment it's too late to do anything about it.

One minute it's "Hey.. I hear something.." then you're holding the Cleric's entrails in your hands screaming your hate to the gods for not saving him.

JaronK
2007-05-31, 02:51 AM
That whole Druids are the best scout is a lie. That "Tweet. I'm a harmless bird" junk should only work on good and nuetral humaniods, fey, and giants. Everything else kills/eats harmless animals. When you start casting 2-3 spells to make up for your clanging feet; you should have hired a rogue, bard, or ranger.

You really think Dragons eat little birds? It's not worth the energy to do it for the most part. Likewise, zombies would be a lot less scary if they randomly tried to chase down every mole or chipmunk they saw. If your DM starts pulling that, it's time to buy a bag of rats or something and distract all your foes as they go on homicidal rampages against the vermin while you walk by safely.


Mindsight and similar abilities. I hate them.

Me too actually. Epic level hiding abilities should not be negated by 3rd level powers or always on feats. I personally hate any spell or ability that completely overrides a skill (Arcane Lock vs. Open Lock, Mindsight vs. Hide, etc) or overwrites the needs for a skill (Knock vs. Open Lock, Spider Climb vs. Climb, etc.).

JaronK

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-05-31, 02:53 AM
Does it have to be on a regular basis? How often does a Barbarian charge a Wizard? How often does it happen after the tales of a horrific death happening to the first Barbarian to try it?

How does Charm Person, Grease, or Web factor into the equation?

Orzel: Casting two or three spells? Invisibility and some boots I bought do not make two or three spells. It makes one spell and some damn good boots.

Considering Barbarian is the standard PC class used to augment NPC's who tend to be charging the PC's... hordes of orcs or goblinoids or trolls or minotaurs... and if they have ANY class levels, you can BET it's gonna be Barbarian. How often does it happen? Pretty damn frequently.

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-05-31, 02:59 AM
You really think Dragons eat little birds? It's not worth the energy to do it for the most part. Likewise, zombies would be a lot less scary if they randomly tried to chase down every mole or chipmunk they saw. If your DM starts pulling that, it's time to buy a bag of rats or something and distract all your foes as they go on homicidal rampages against the vermin while you walk by safely.
Another use for the bag of rats? And I thought I'd seen them all.


Me too actually. Epic level hiding abilities should not be negated by 3rd level powers or always on feats. I personally hate any spell or ability that completely overrides a skill (Arcane Lock vs. Open Lock, Mindsight vs. Hide, etc) or overwrites the needs for a skill (Knock vs. Open Lock, Spider Climb vs. Climb, etc.).
Possibly my biggest pet peeve with casters. :smallyuk: I love playing skill monkeys, but when the caster bulls his way into doing everything, and has the spells/powers to pull it off without any problem, it's just pathetic.

ZeroNumerous
2007-05-31, 03:00 AM
How often does it happen? Pretty damn frequently.


How often does a Barbarian charge a Wizard?

I've yet to have my wizards charged by a Barbarian, but generally my party has a Cleric or Druid to do the "getting in melee" thing.


Possibly my biggest pet peeve with casters. :smallyuk: I love playing skill monkeys, but when the caster bulls his way into doing everything, and has the spells/powers to pull it off without any problem, it's just pathetic.

Thats why my favorite casting class will remain the Warmage. Completely and horrifically crippled in mage vs mage fights, but it's fun to play when you have a group you like to play with.

Turnia's Ball of Thunder remains my favorite, albiet silly, Warmage spell. [Arcane Thesis'd Fireball that's had Energy Sub[Electricity] and Born of the Three Thunders applied to it]

Orzel
2007-05-31, 03:26 AM
I destroyed so many encounters with my stealth usage, I have to rely on raw numbers now. I actually use bags of rats with my arcane trickster 'cause a dragon ate my last 3 druids, man.

@ ZeroNumerous: If you are fighting a smart and alone wizard, dragon, m beast, or outsider; he can see through invis.

If you are scouting a group, some one has a Listen mod of at least 2+their level. There's always one dude with Listen +11 or something :smallannoyed: .

ZeroNumerous
2007-05-31, 03:44 AM
Glitterdust: They don't see anything now, do they?

Again, the Listen check is completely irrelevant. Once in range for a listen check, they're already doomed.

McDeath
2007-05-31, 06:08 AM
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHH.

Alright. That's it. I tried to stay out of these, I did. But now I just have to do the rant thing, maybe get another infraction, but whatever. I need to get this out. Spoilered for those who don't want to listen to bile and vitriol.

Now kids, listen up (that includes those of you three times my age). Lean in and pay attention - go on, huddle up. Here's a revelation: it doesn't matter which class is the most powerful in core, or what weird syngergies you can pull out of Races of the Psionic Shifting Wild, or any of that ****. Why? Because a game of D&D, even over the boards, is a cooperative effort between the DM and the players. However, it is the DM's world and they can change it. By the laws of the universe, anything a DM says is true. What does this mean for Pun-Pun? How about "Halfway through your infinite cycle of power increase, the cosmic energy makes you explode. Here's a clean character sheet."?

Now sure, building powerful characters is fun for some people, but remember the other people in the room? Yeah. If you want to imagine that you're a god in human form, do it by yourself. Only if all the others, including the DM, find it fun to compete over who's more powerful, should you do it. It's like going to a playground and kicking sand in everyone's faces, it really is.

And a quick note on what DMs who play RAW: that doesn't mean they can't beat a powerful character. Good tactics, cunning enemies and use of terrain can make opponent's CR ridiculous. Ever heard of Tucker's Kobolds? Yeah. Not that good DMs would do that to you.

So the next time you want to turn a D&D game into a w**k-fest about how powerful your characters are, make sure it's OK with everyone else. If it is, ENJOY YOURSELF. If it's not, either change your goals for D&D or leave the group and cry in a corner.

Saph
2007-05-31, 06:43 AM
What would you say is the order of power for the base classes, from highest to lowest? This is just based on regular adventuring, not PVP or power builds.

What level are you playing at?

Because that makes a BIG difference.

At levels 1-4, Wizards and Sorcerers really aren't anything special. You can cast three, maybe four, second-level spells per day, a strong breeze is enough to knock you over, and if a monster crits you it's time to start rolling up a new character. It's true that at higher levels Wizards are very very powerful, but very few people play at those high levels. Not much use being awesome at level 15 if you die at level 3 and your campaign ends at level 10.

The last time I did a poll on this 85% of people said they played at levels 1-10, so if you're going to compare power levels, you should do it mainly for characters in that range. For simplicity I'll assume everyone's level 6. With that in mind, here would be my ranking:

• Druid: Wild Shape, good skills and saves, and a great spell list.
• Cleric: The best healing class and a good all-rounder in other ways.
• Barbarian: Damage is the most reliable way to kill enemies at this level, and the Barbarian's the best at dealing it.
• Paladin: At early levels the Paladin's abilities make him a great front-rank fighter and support character. It's only later on that they start to fall off in power.
• Wizard: Powerful arcane magic, superb in a party with good teamwork, a bit more limited otherwise.
• Rogue: The premier skillmonkey class, but at 6th-level you're going to be failing your skill checks as often as you make them.
• Fighter: The extra feats help a lot, but the Fighter is starting to fall off in power even at this level.
• Ranger: Some skills, some combat ability, but can't do either well enough to carve out a real niche. Archery is probably the best bet.
• Sorcerer: At low levels, being one spell level behind really, really hurts. Your spell selection is also poor. A decent gun turret, though.
• Bard: Only second-level spells, only +1 to Inspire Courage, only one attack . . . nothing to get excited about.
• Monk: Reliably bringing up the bottom of the power rankings no matter what level you play at.

- Saph

Ramza00
2007-05-31, 07:04 AM
Kiss your character wealth goodbye if you plan on slinging that around on anything resembling a regular basis.

The Cheap Core Forcecage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resilientSphere.htm)

Tengu
2007-05-31, 07:08 AM
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHH.

Alright. That's it. I tried to stay out of these, I did. But now I just have to do the rant thing, maybe get another infraction, but whatever. I need to get this out. Spoilered for those who don't want to listen to bile and vitriol.

Now kids, listen up (that includes those of you three times my age). Lean in and pay attention - go on, huddle up. Here's a revelation: it doesn't matter which class is the most powerful in core, or what weird syngergies you can pull out of Races of the Psionic Shifting Wild, or any of that ****. Why? Because a game of D&D, even over the boards, is a cooperative effort between the DM and the players. However, it is the DM's world and they can change it. By the laws of the universe, anything a DM says is true. What does this mean for Pun-Pun? How about "Halfway through your infinite cycle of power increase, the cosmic energy makes you explode. Here's a clean character sheet."?

Now sure, building powerful characters is fun for some people, but remember the other people in the room? Yeah. If you want to imagine that you're a god in human form, do it by yourself. Only if all the others, including the DM, find it fun to compete over who's more powerful, should you do it. It's like going to a playground and kicking sand in everyone's faces, it really is.

And a quick note on what DMs who play RAW: that doesn't mean they can't beat a powerful character. Good tactics, cunning enemies and use of terrain can make opponent's CR ridiculous. Ever heard of Tucker's Kobolds? Yeah. Not that good DMs would do that to you.

So the next time you want to turn a D&D game into a w**k-fest about how powerful your characters are, make sure it's OK with everyone else. If it is, ENJOY YOURSELF. If it's not, either change your goals for D&D or leave the group and cry in a corner.

Show me a single post in this thread that says something along the lines of "lolz u must ply only wizzrds dr00dz clreks sorcs rest is suxxor FTL!!11one". Just because people acknowledge that the classes in DND are not balanced, does not mean that they are playing only uber-cheese. And also, the community pointing out such mistakes lets the designers know that there's something bad in what they make, and possibly fix it - PHB2 or ToB probably wouldn't exist without people pointing out the lack of balance in core DND.

And now, on-topic. My list of classes:

High tier:
Wizard
Cleric
Druid
(Psion)
Sorcerer
----------
Middle tier:
(Psionic Warrior)
(Wilder)
Barbarian
Rogue
Paladin
Fighter
----------
Low tier:
Bard
Ranger
(Soulblade)
Monk

Why ranger is below the fighter? Because he's not really good at anything. Lacks the skill list to be a skillmonkey, his SRD spells are very weak, and he does not have anything apart from full BAB and favored enemy to improve his combat abilities.

Spiryt
2007-05-31, 07:33 AM
Why ranger is below the fighter? Because he's not really good at anything. Lacks the skill list to be a skillmonkey, his SRD spells are very weak, and he does not have anything apart from full BAB and favored enemy to improve his combat abilities.

It depends on your GM style. If he is focusing his campaigins also on travels and generally enviroment Ranger have more to say.
And about offence paladin is certainly worse : only thing he has is smite- few uses per day and can't do anything to non evil monsters/enemies. And if he accidentaly use it against non evil anyway waste it.

Anyway i must agree that if somebody is thinkig about playing ranger he should have Spells Compendiumor something. Ranger core spells are silly.

Tengu
2007-05-31, 07:40 AM
In most games though, you're guaranteed to fight more evil creatures than ranger's favored enemies.

Mr. Moogle
2007-05-31, 07:54 AM
GRAHHHH!!!! I can barly SEE with all the monk hate flying around. They are the ultimate anti-caster. I actually PROVED this to my friend by making a level ten monk and having him make a level 12 wizard. It was a slaughter (By the monk) with improved evasion he was barly taking any damage from spells and with awsome saves he was doging somewhere around HALF of the wizards spells.
MONKS ARE NOT TO BE COMPARED TO FIGHTERS!!!
There abilitys CANNOT be compared tho the fighter or any other meat shield. Since their abilitys are for a whole diffrent PURPOSE!!!

Spiryt
2007-05-31, 08:04 AM
In most games though, you're guaranteed to fight more evil creatures than ranger's favored enemies.

However on, lets say, 8th level Paladin can do 16 (8 with one strike) additional damage per day. Ranger can do +4 (4 with one strike) or + 2 damage (without any feats) all day and night along.

And as always much depends on GM.

Fourth Tempter
2007-05-31, 08:47 AM
GRAHHHH!!!! I can barly SEE with all the monk hate flying around. They are the ultimate anti-caster. I actually PROVED this to my friend by making a level ten monk and having him make a level 12 wizard. It was a slaughter (By the monk) with improved evasion he was barly taking any damage from spells and with awsome saves he was doging somewhere around HALF of the wizards spells.
I suspect that this is because your wizardly friend did not know what he was doing. "Taking any damage?" If the wizard was throwing fireballs, no wonder he lost.
At level twelve, a simple Solid Fog would keep the monk busy for four rounds. After that, the Wizard can be invisible and flying (he can even be flying beforehand, via Overland Flight). Then the wizard could have summoned a Gargantuan fiendish monstrous centipede or 1d3 fiendish giant crocodiles to grapple the monk, for example. Alternatively, Black Tentacles can grapple the monk, a series of Baleful Polymorphs are likely to overcome the monk's Fortitude save (generally his weakest), or the wizard could simply Teleport away, Scry on the monk from a distance, and come back at night with precisely the spells he needs.


MONKS ARE NOT TO BE COMPARED TO FIGHTERS!!!
There abilitys CANNOT be compared tho the fighter or any other meat shield. Since their abilitys are for a whole diffrent PURPOSE!!!
And that purpose is... what exactly? Part of the problem monks have is that they *have* no purpose. "Killing mages" is not a role (and they are no better at it than most of the other classes; they can simply survive somewhat longer), as mages are a fraction of the enemies the part faces (and many monstrous mages, such as demons and dragons, are not fragile in the way humanoid mages are). They are not good at anything--they have no role. They contribute relatively little to the party.

Fourth Tempter
2007-05-31, 08:54 AM
What level are you playing at?

Because that makes a BIG difference.

At levels 1-4, Wizards and Sorcerers really aren't anything special. You can cast three, maybe four, second-level spells per day, a strong breeze is enough to knock you over, and if a monster crits you it's time to start rolling up a new character. It's true that at higher levels Wizards are very very powerful, but very few people play at those high levels. Not much use being awesome at level 15 if you die at level 3 and your campaign ends at level 10.
At levels 2-4, wizards and sorcerers are not exactly lacking behind, either. Sleep is the king of low-level spells; at levels 3 and 4, Glitterdust and Web are availible.

The last time I did a poll on this 85% of people said they played at levels 1-10, so if you're going to compare power levels, you should do it mainly for characters in that range. For simplicity I'll assume everyone's level 6. With that in mind, here would be my ranking:


• Druid: Wild Shape, good skills and saves, and a great spell list.
• Cleric: The best healing class and a good all-rounder in other ways.
• Barbarian: Damage is the most reliable way to kill enemies at this level, and the Barbarian's the best at dealing it.
• Paladin: At early levels the Paladin's abilities make him a great front-rank fighter and support character. It's only later on that they start to fall off in power.
• Wizard: Powerful arcane magic, superb in a party with good teamwork, a bit more limited otherwise.

By level 6, the party may already be facing (CR 8 or so) dragons; they can certainly encounter enemies capable of surviving in melee with the barbarian. The wizard does not a party with good teamwork so much as a party willing to break the enemies he blinds, slows, and enfeebles. I would put the wizard ahead of the melee classes, and of the cleric (who has not yet acquired Divine Power)--he does more for the party, and can do it to more challenging opponents.

F.H. Zebedee
2007-05-31, 10:30 AM
I concur with Fourth on the Monks. It's unfortunate, as the Monk is one of, if not, my favorite class. I actually enjoy their flavor immensely and have a good time with them... They just don't do much other than survive. Granted, that could be good for some things (everybody give him a little bag of their nail clippings/hair for rezzing, and have him high-tail it out when TPKs beckon, play Monk in when a high lethality DM is on a rampage, etc.)

Best use I've heard is in one-player campaigns, where only the divine casters (Paladin, Cleric, Druid) are anywhere near as useful for those. High survivability and self healing is great for those.

Problem is that they're not much of a GIVER to the party. They can't deal damage enough to make them efficient meatshields (No threat, so monsters just ignore them mostly), no sharable healing, Bards make better faces and translators despite Tongue of the Sun and Moon since MAD kills Monks' CHA dead. And they've got no casting/healing capability, sooo... Yeah. They don't play well with others.

Saph
2007-05-31, 10:48 AM
At levels 2-4, wizards and sorcerers are not exactly lacking behind, either. Sleep is the king of low-level spells; at levels 3 and 4, Glitterdust and Web are availible.

Wizards and sorcs definitely are lacking at levels 2-4. Very few spells, very few hitpoints.

Web is mediocre in my opinion. Chances are that by the time you can get it off, the enemies and the party will be mixed together. It's also useless out in the open. When I was playing a low-level wizard, I kept it prepared for several sessions until I noticed that we hadn't had a single fight where it would have helped. Glitterdust, on the other hand, is excellent, and is almost worth including a wiz or sorc for on its own. However, blinding only works on some enemies.

As for Sleep . . . you know it takes a full round to cast, right? What are the enemies going to be doing while you're standing around casting?


By level 6, the party may already be facing (CR 8 or so) dragons; they can certainly encounter enemies capable of surviving in melee with the barbarian. The wizard does not a party with good teamwork so much as a party willing to break the enemies he blinds, slows, and enfeebles. I would put the wizard ahead of the melee classes, and of the cleric (who has not yet acquired Divine Power)--he does more for the party, and can do it to more challenging opponents.

A level 6 wizard is very strong working in combination with a party. On his own he's much more limited. That's why I'd put the cleric above, who can do many of the tricks a wizard can but is far more survivable and can handle himself fine in melee.

I mostly play games around the lowish levels, and in my experience the members of this forum heavily overrate wizards. Are wizards awesome at level 15+? Sure. At level 6-? Not so much. You can contribute lots, but you're horribly vulnerable and one mistake is enough to get you killed. My level 6 wizard nearly got killed twice just by standing in the wrong place when something activated.

- Saph

endersdouble
2007-05-31, 11:03 AM
And remember, about the cost of forcecage: if nothing else, once you Forcecage the barbarian and kill him, you can always sell his stuff to more than make up for the material cost. When you're casting 7th level spells, a barbarian without far more than 1,500gp of gear is not a threat.

Draz74
2007-05-31, 11:07 AM
Also, on the cost of Forcecage: Eventually, you can just use Greater Shadow Evocation to duplicate it for free. :smallyuk:

Fourth Tempter
2007-05-31, 11:21 AM
Wizards and sorcs definitely are lacking at levels 2-4. Very few spells, very few hitpoints.
Very few hitpoints, yes. Few spells, but tolerable (at level 2, four first-level, for a specialist; at level 4, five or six first-level and four second-level, for a specialist) after the first couple of levels--plus scrolls with highly-useful things such as Ray of Enfeeblement.


Web is mediocre in my opinion. Chances are that by the time you can get it off, the enemies and the party will be mixed together. It's also useless out in the open. When I was playing a low-level wizard, I kept it prepared for several sessions until I noticed that we hadn't had a single fight where it would have helped. Glitterdust, on the other hand, is excellent, and is almost worth including a wiz or sorc for on its own. However, blinding only works on some enemies.
Blinding works on a very significant majority of enemies you are likely to encounter at those levels; the only exception I can think of are grimlocks.

Web must be anchored, but it can be horizontal; if the ground is not completely flat, it should be useable outdoors. If the party has bows, Web keeps enemies in place and allows you to dispatch them easily (it can take a long time to leave a Web even if one makes the Reflex save).


As for Sleep . . . you know it takes a full round to cast, right? What are the enemies going to be doing while you're standing around casting?
Cast it from behind the big guys, with cover and the like. Or from far away--Sleep is best to open a fight with. Color Spray is as good in combat.


A level 6 wizard is very strong working in combination with a party. On his own he's much more limited. That's why I'd put the cleric above, who can do many of the tricks a wizard can but is far more survivable and can handle himself fine in melee.
The wizard is not going to be on his own. Even if for some reason he was, he could have Charmed allies, or hirelings.


I mostly play games around the lowish levels, and in my experience the members of this forum heavily overrate wizards. Are wizards awesome at level 15+? Sure. At level 6-? Not so much. You can contribute lots, but you're horribly vulnerable and one mistake is enough to get you killed. My level 6 wizard nearly got killed twice just by standing in the wrong place when something activated.
A good Constitution helps, as can scribing scrolls of False Life. At levels 1 and 2, playing a wizard can be an exercise in running out of spell slots (of course, hit points are low, so parties are likely to rest more often), but between 2 and 6, wizards fit right in with the rest of the good classes. Glitterdust, scrolls of Mirror Image for defense when you need it, Bull's Strength for the warrior... the largest problem is finding a balance between offense and defense, really.

By level 10, a wizard can be quite "awesome", with all-day flight, and not particularily vulnerable. At level 6, he is still tolerably vulnerable, but has incredibly useful spells

Quirinus_Obsidian
2007-05-31, 11:35 AM
Umm... there really is no "order of power" for any class. The best characters I ever played were probably the most "un-optimizable" characters in the game; the Monk and the Soulknife. The Monk was unstoppable; the party Wizzie could barely get a spell off before the BBEG of the night was dead; and whenever we went up against a enemy spellcaster, the Monk was on top of it like starch on rice; and it was dead within a round or two. It's all about the build and the play of the character. For the monk; you don't need a MAD character; just a good DEX and a decent CON. Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse, etc. can make for a good monk. Endurance and Steadfast Determination can really help your Will save if your WIS sucks but have a good CON, and you dont fail FORT save on a '1'. In the Savage Species book, you can get an "Amulet of Natural Attacks"; this is a 600GP item that you can enchant with your favorite melee enhancements (save throwing, returning, and distance) and have them applied to your natural attacks. You can get Collision, generic +x enhancements, vicious; and with the Versatile Unarmed Strike feat you can get Vorpal fists (as you can choose Slashing with the feat). I can go on and on....

Saph
2007-05-31, 11:47 AM
Blinding works on a very significant majority of enemies you are likely to encounter at those levels; the only exception I can think of are grimlocks.

There are many, many more exceptions than just grimlocks. Blindsight, blindsense, tremorsense, scent, incorporeality . . . all make Glitterdust less effective or outright useless. There are also various tactics that negate it. I've had lots of experience of this, since I've played characters that use glitterdust heavily up through the levels.


Web must be anchored, but it can be horizontal; if the ground is not completely flat, it should be useable outdoors. If the party has bows, Web keeps enemies in place and allows you to dispatch them easily (it can take a long time to leave a Web even if one makes the Reflex save).

Unless they hide in it, or burrow under it, or get close enough to you that you can't cast it, or, if they get desperate enough, just burn it . . . it requires very specific situations to be useful. Not worth the spell slot, IMO.


A good Constitution helps, as can scribing scrolls of False Life. At levels 1 and 2, playing a wizard can be an exercise in running out of spell slots (of course, hit points are low, so parties are likely to rest more often), but between 2 and 6, wizards fit right in with the rest of the good classes. Glitterdust, scrolls of Mirror Image for defense when you need it, Bull's Strength for the warrior... the largest problem is finding a balance between offense and defense, really.

Not really - in my experience, the largest problem is stopping that trap/monster from killing you in one hit. Wizards can deal with anything IF they're prepared for it. The problems come when you get caught by surprise, or when you make a mistake, and in these situations the wizard is a very unforgiving class to play.

- Saph

AtomicKitKat
2007-05-31, 10:19 PM
The trick to the Wizard, of course, is to pick the spells that are useful 90% of the time, and try to have some overlap, so that each spell hopefully covers at least one area not covered by another spell. You also make sure that you have one spell for each save, or even spells with no saves.

Sleep is devastating. In order to get every spell possible in the Temple of Elemental Evil CRPG, I made a single Wizard(and subsequently tacked on new Wizards with new spells), and she managed to defeat groups of bandits(up to half a dozen at a time) easily with Sleep+Quarterstaff CdG. Colour Spray proved to be almost as useful beyond level 4, leaving enemies Stunned, Asleep, Blind, or any combination. Since there was a hard cap of level 10, the hardest opponents(at least for the playing that I did) were Trolls(Without fire, it's ridiculously hard to take them down until you get Cloudkill), and sometimes the lizards(they bite ridiculously hard for their CR). Once I got False Life and hit level 9, I almost doubled my HP, so that I could actually rest without worrying about healing.

Renegade Paladin
2007-05-31, 10:35 PM
Show me a single post in this thread that says something along the lines of "lolz u must ply only wizzrds dr00dz clreks sorcs rest is suxxor FTL!!11one".


And again, the heirarchy of power is as follows:

Cleric
Druid
Wizard
Sorceror

Everything else is irrelevant.
The prosecution rests.

Droodle
2007-05-31, 11:15 PM
I think Bards should be ranked up with the other full casters for several reasons. First of all, a smartly played bard isn't really going to feel like his casting has been nerfed. A Bard, like any other caster, is going to target his enemies weak points rather than their strengths, so his lower caster level is largely mitigated by the fact that he gets a lot of the more useful enchantments and illusions a level or two earlier than the other full casters and he'll only be using them against opponents who likely have weak will saves. Further, the DC for the Bard's song based charms and fear effects actually get rather ridiculous at high levels. While not as easily measured, the Bard also excels at enabling everyone in the party to perform their duties even better than they already do. The bard even has access to a few sonic spells requiring a fortitude save to use against other casters and his healing spells are nothing to sneeze at. As a caster, the Bard is kind of a one trick monkey. But his trick is actually pretty good. Especially if the Bard specializes in enchantment, takes Heighten Spell feat.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-06-01, 12:10 AM
I think Bards should be ranked up with the other full casters for several reasons. First of all, a smartly played bard isn't really going to feel like his casting has been nerfed. A Bard, like any other caster, is going to target his enemies weak points rather than their strengths, so his lower caster level is largely mitigated by the fact that he gets a lot of the more useful enchantments and illusions a level or two earlier than the other full casters and he'll only be using them against opponents who likely have weak will saves. Further, the DC for the Bard's song based charms and fear effects actually get rather ridiculous at high levels. While not as easily measured, the Bard also excels at enabling everyone in the party to perform their duties even better than they already do. The bard even has access to a few sonic spells requiring a fortitude save to use against other casters and his healing spells are nothing to sneeze at. As a caster, the Bard is kind of a one trick monkey. But his trick is actually pretty good. Especially if the Bard specializes in enchantment, takes Heighten Spell feat.

Until he hits around level 9 and starts running into a bunch of critters immune to mind-affecting stuff... in which case, he's just another putz who wields a sword... poorly.

Droodle
2007-06-01, 12:19 AM
Until he hits around level 9 and starts running into a bunch of critters immune to mind-affecting stuff... in which case, he's just another putz who wields a sword... poorly.Everyone runs into enemies against whom their "primary trick" doesn't work so well. There are plenty (most) of high CR enemies who aren't immune to mind control. Further, in such encounters, a bard can simply fall back on spell and music based buffs. With Arcane strike, a bard makes a deadly archer as well.

Jasdoif
2007-06-01, 12:23 AM
With Arcane strike, a bard makes a deadly archer as well.Has Arcane Strike been reprinted since Complete Warrior, by any chance?

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-06-01, 01:14 AM
Everyone runs into enemies against whom their "primary trick" doesn't work so well. There are plenty (most) of high CR enemies who aren't immune to mind control. Further, in such encounters, a bard can simply fall back on spell and music based buffs. With Arcane strike, a bard makes a deadly archer as well.

like what? Undead are flat immune to mind control. That's everything from vamps to litches to mummies. Outsiders have such insane will saves you might as well not bother, not to mention most outsiders come packed with insane SR as well that no bard can hope to beat. Dragons also come packed with insane Will saves and high SR. Constructs are another immune to mind-affecting thing you start running across in mid levels. Anything that isn't humanoid is immune to things like Charm Person just by virtue of not being a humanoid. Heck, even Aberations have good will saves.

Let's face it, Will saves are your most common Save or Loose, and most BBEG's are designed to say no to Save or Loose because one single fail and the encounter is over with no contest, which doesn't make for a good story, so GM's try to avoid it.

ZeroNumerous
2007-06-01, 01:25 AM
The prosecution rests.

I know you like to make blind accusations, but please look at the first sentence.

The heirarchy of power is as follows:

No where in that statement did I say you can or cannot play another class. Infact, I encourage you to choose your own class. The other classes are just pointless when Cleric/Druid/Wizard can do everything they can, and often do it better.

Again, before you go about with blind accusations, please actually read what you're comparing versus what you're accusing. If someone wants to play a Monk, then by all means play a monk, thats your choice and theres nothing I can say or do to stop you from choosing that. I suggest not playing a monk, but if you're hard set on going with it then more power to you.

But if you're going to say that monk is in the top ANYTHING in D&D, then you're just blatantly wrong. No one has said "PLAY WZRD IT IS THE ROXXORS", but a LOT of people have said that the top four classes are the full casters. I personally believe that playing anything else is silly if you only want Real Ultimate Power(TM)

Renegade Paladin
2007-06-01, 01:31 AM
I know you like to make blind accusations, but please look at the first sentence.
How about you read the last one? You said everything else is irrelevant. Obfuscate all you want; that was a direct statement that everything else sucks. He asked to be shown that, and I showed him. Screaming that I'm wrong won't change the fact that the words are there and say what they say.

Mr. Moogle
2007-06-01, 07:50 AM
Invisibility + Books of Elvenkind. The entire Divination school. And Missive. I do believe that removes skillmonkies' purpose.

The real reason a skill monkey is around is being the 'Face', but even that can be easily replaced, if your party is evil, through Charm Person.

And again, the heirarchy of power is as follows:

Cleric
Druid
Wizard
Sorceror

Everything else is irrelevant.

At low levels any of those classes would be baeten into a bloody pulp without a tank

Fourth Tempter
2007-06-01, 08:49 AM
At level 1, a Druid's war-trained Riding Dog is as effective a "tank" as most player characters; put some barding on it. The cleric, too, can have a greatsword with the War domain and the right deity. The wizard casts Sleep.

By the time they hit level, oh, seven, this group is better in melee than a traditional one.

Droodle
2007-06-01, 12:23 PM
like what? Undead are flat immune to mind control. So the Bard can just use Arcane Strike in conjunction with rapid shot. Or affect undead with his bard song because he took the requiem feat. Or cast shout. Or cast his healing spells on the undead. Or, rather than attack, he could just concentrate on buffing his allies. He could cast mirror image and displacement, enter the melee, and Power attack with his long sword held in both hands. The Bard can do more than cast Tasha's Hideous Laughter, you know. He has a 3/4 BAB and a decent number of buffs. He's an effective Gish if you build him right.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-06-01, 01:40 PM
So the Bard can just use Arcane Strike in conjunction with rapid shot. Or affect undead with his bard song because he took the requiem feat. Or cast shout. Or cast his healing spells on the undead. Or, rather than attack, he could just concentrate on buffing his allies. He could cast mirror image and displacement, enter the melee, and Power attack with his long sword held in both hands. The Bard can do more than cast Tasha's Hideous Laughter, you know. He has a 3/4 BAB and a decent number of buffs. He's an effective Gish if you build him right.

I believe we're talking Core here. No arcane strike, no Requium. Bardic healing is pathetic, he'd actually be better off swinging his rapier around. Mirror Image and Displacement don't stack, Mirror Image is just plain better. Bard would be crazy to use PA, since he's got a 3/4 BAB, he's still not hitting as frequently as a main tank is, and PA would only hurt his chances that much more.

Counterspin
2007-06-01, 02:20 PM
Renegade paladin - We don't need you wandering around telling people what they said, particularly if you can't differentiate "You must play x" from the statement "x is more powerful than y."

Droodle
2007-06-01, 02:45 PM
Bardic healing is pathetic, he'd actually be better off swinging his rapier around. Mirror Image and Displacement don't stack, Mirror Image is just plain better. Bard would be crazy to use PA, since he's got a 3/4 BAB, he's still not hitting as frequently as a main tank is, and PA would only hurt his chances that much more.Just because Bard's have 3/4 BAB doesn't mean that a Bard would be crazy to power attack. At level 8, a bard's BAB is only 2 points lower than that of a warrior, so the difference really isn't all that big.....and undead tend to have a lousy AC score. I'm also talking about using a longsword two handed instead of a rapier since you'll get 1.5x the Bard's strength bonus and also so power attack will net 2 points of damage for each point taken of his to-hit score. Swinging your rapier one handed (a rapier can't be held in 2 hands) against an enemy with Damage Reduction against piercing (which pretty much all undead have) isn't going to do a lot of good....and casting cure spells on undead is guaranteed damage. Casting Cure serious wounds for 18-39 damage or even cure light wounds for 6-13 damage is a lot more optimal than hitting your target with your rapier for no damage, isn't it? Cure spells are serious business against undead. Also, there is nothing in the spell descriptions of either Mirror Image or Displacement that implies they do not stack.

tarbrush
2007-06-01, 02:52 PM
Another use for the bag of rats? And I thought I'd seen them all.

I present The Trouserfang Dwarf (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=727527)

There's always another use for a large bag of tiny critters.

Jasdoif
2007-06-01, 02:57 PM
So the Bard can just use Arcane Strike in conjunction with rapid shot.Again, has Arcane Strike been reprinted since Complete Warrior?

If not, it only works with melee weapons, unarmed strikes and natural weapons. So unless you're talking thrown weapons here, you can't use it for ranged attacks.

Droodle
2007-06-01, 03:06 PM
I'm not sure if it's been re-printed since then or not. I'll have to check. I wasn't aware that Arcane strike was restricted to melee (probably because the optimization boards are loaded with ranged Gish builds that use Arcane Strike).

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-06-01, 03:24 PM
Just because Bard's have 3/4 BAB doesn't mean that a Bard would be crazy to power attack. At level 8, a bard's BAB is only 2 points lower than that of a warrior, so the difference really isn't all that big.....and undead tend to have a lousy AC score. I'm also talking about using a longsword two handed instead of a rapier since you'll get 1.5x the Bard's strength bonus and also so power attack will net 2 points of damage for each point taken of his to-hit score. Swinging your rapier one handed (a rapier can't be held in 2 hands) against an enemy with Damage Reduction against piercing (which pretty much all undead have) isn't going to do a lot of good....and casting cure spells on undead is guaranteed damage. Casting Cure serious wounds for 18-39 damage or even cure light wounds for 6-13 damage is a lot more optimal than hitting your target with your rapier for no damage, isn't it? Cure spells are serious business against undead. Also, there is nothing in the spell descriptions of either Mirror Image or Displacement that implies they do not stack.

Considering how FEW spells a Bard actually has, flinging around Cure spells as damage is pure lunacy. A 9th level bard has 2 3rd level spells, 3 with the right Charisma (which I'll grant). So you're blowing one on Displacement (which is in every way inferior to Miror Image) and one to damage (not kill) one opponent. You've got ONE spell left. To be honest, his BEST use of a 3rd level spell is to use a Slow. Undead have abysmal Will saves, even though they are immune to mind-affecting stuff. Slow is one of the few Will saves that aren't mind-affecting. This nerfs the whole group of undead rather than just pissing off one single undead.

Of course, a wizard or sorcerer could have done it 3-4 levels earlier...

And using Miror Image with Displacement is also lunacy. You're spending an extra turn to absolutely no benefit. After you get done with Miror Image and Displacement, either all the critters are dead, or you're already dead because they jumped you while you were still buffing up.

Arbitrarity
2007-06-01, 03:29 PM
Hmmm... since each image has 50% concealment, logically, they should stack.

Of course, the time it takes to do that is inane.

Renegade Paladin
2007-06-01, 03:58 PM
Renegade paladin - We don't need you wandering around telling people what they said, particularly if you can't differentiate "You must play x" from the statement "x is more powerful than y."
1.) And I don't need you telling me what I may or may not post, at least not before you're made a moderator around here. 2.) I can differentiate between those two statements and did so; Zero said they were more powerful and then went on to say that everything else was irrelevant, which is far beyond a statement of relative power and well into the territory of saying everything else sucks. If that's his opinion he's entitled to it; I only provided it as the example of someone saying that classes other than the full casters suck that Tengu was asking for, not as an indictment of Zero's play style or views on the game. If he chooses to take offense at that, it's not my problem; it wasn't directed towards him at all.
Undead have abysmal Will saves, even though they are immune to mind-affecting stuff.
Actually, Will is the one good save progression that the undead type gets. Templated undead tend to keep the base creature's base saves, though.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-06-01, 04:09 PM
Actually, Will is the one good save progression that the undead type gets. Templated undead tend to keep the base creature's base saves, though.

Ahh, so 'tis. My apologies, my first statement is correct then. Darn near everything you run across is going to have a good will save, making it practically immune to the Bard.

Morty
2007-06-01, 04:13 PM
Ahh, so 'tis. My apologies, my first statement is correct then. Darn near everything you run across is going to have a good will save, making it practically immune to the Bard.

Well, except of humanoid enemies with class levels of fighter.

Droodle
2007-06-01, 04:19 PM
@Schneeky: I listed off multiple options that a Bard has. I wasn't suggesting a specific strategy, but merely pointing out that a Bard isn't completely without options against undead. Also, against a single, powerful opponent, using high level healing to deal damage isn't a bad idea if you are running out of options and need to end the battle quickly. In a battle with undead, constructs, etc, I'd probably just have a core bard stick to buffing the party and using spells like slow, glitterdust, and grease to help control the battlefield. Bards, like any other arcane caster, are better off using battlefield control and disabling spells than trying to actually deal damage. Dealing damage is what fighters are for.

Tengu
2007-06-01, 04:20 PM
1.) And I don't need you telling me what I may or may not post, at least not before you're made a moderator around here. 2.) I can differentiate between those two statements and did so; Zero said they were more powerful and then went on to say that everything else was irrelevant, which is far beyond a statement of relative power and well into the territory of saying everything else sucks. If that's his opinion he's entitled to it; I only provided it as the example of someone saying that classes other than the full casters suck that Tengu was asking for, not as an indictment of Zero's play style or views on the game. If he chooses to take offense at that, it's not my problem; it wasn't directed towards him at all.

Actually, I was aware of ZeruNumerous' post when I was writing mine, and what he written was, in fact, a post of relative power, not a "you suck if you play a class outside the mighty 4" post. Therefore, your initial statement is not correct.

Counterspin
2007-06-01, 04:23 PM
Nevermind. This is a fruitless argument. Perhaps we should try to get back on topic, and less angry. (Disclaimer: Not a mod. You ain't gotta, and I ain't orderin'. Just a suggestion to keep the thread productive)

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-06-01, 04:31 PM
@Schneeky: I listed off multiple options that a Bard has. I wasn't suggesting a specific strategy, but merely pointing out that a Bard isn't completely without options against undead. Also, against a single, powerful opponent, using high level healing to deal damage isn't a bad idea if you are running out of options and need to end the battle quickly. In a battle with undead, constructs, etc, I'd probably just have a core bard stick to buffing the party and using spells like slow and grease to help control the battlefield. Bards, like any other arcane caster, are better off using battlefield control and disabling spells than trying to actually deal damage. Dealing damage is what fighters are for.

I will agree completely that a bard, like any arcane caster, is better off in the role of battlefield control and support. However, a sorcerer can do the job better. About the only thing the Sorcerer can't do is provide a morale bonus to all allies to attack and damage, which the Bard can do with music. The Cleric can, with the right spell, but not the Sorcerer.

And yes, a Bard can act like a gimped and hamstrung sorcerer. Or it can act like a gimped melee. Or it can act like a gimped healbot. But it can't do all three things at the same time with the same build, and it can't do one thing well, which makes it's power level at dead last in my book.

JaronK
2007-06-01, 04:38 PM
And yes, a Bard can act like a gimped and hamstrung sorcerer. Or it can act like a gimped melee. Or it can act like a gimped healbot. But it can't do all three things at the same time with the same build, and it can't do one thing well, which makes it's power level at dead last in my book.

But he can do Diplomancer better than any other core class, which is insanely powerful.

Bards are certainly weak in kick in the door melee situations, I'll grant that. But as party faces, they're amazing. The ability to take about a minute to make anyone, even people who hate you, become your friend is huge.

JaronK

Droodle
2007-06-01, 05:12 PM
I again want to point out that a Bard who chooses his spells carefully can do quite passably at several roles by simply relying on heighten spell to keep some of his low level spells useful at high levels. Further, I think the preponderance of enemies with extraordinary will saves is being greatly exaggerated. Sure, the BBEG probably has a good will save (and is probably a caster), but chances are pretty good that he's got a few fighters or rogues in his posse. Charming or disabling them early in the fight can massively shift the odds in the Bard's party's favour. Every round the BBEG spends trying to subdue his own allies is a round he isn't attacking the party. Fascinate, Suggestion, and Mass Suggestion shouldn't be underestimated either. A level 20 Bard will be able to fascinate nearly anything since his (obnoxiously high) perform check is the DC (which allows his party to position themselves in a tactically superior position and take initiative for combat) and his mass suggestion will have the save DC of a 10th level spell.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-06-01, 10:29 PM
I again want to point out that a Bard who chooses his spells carefully can do quite passably at several roles by simply relying on heighten spell to keep some of his low level spells useful at high levels. Further, I think the preponderance of enemies with extraordinary will saves is being greatly exaggerated. Sure, the BBEG probably has a good will save (and is probably a caster), but chances are pretty good that he's got a few fighters or rogues in his posse. Charming or disabling them early in the fight can massively shift the odds in the Bard's party's favour. Every round the BBEG spends trying to subdue his own allies is a round he isn't attacking the party. Fascinate, Suggestion, and Mass Suggestion shouldn't be underestimated either. A level 20 Bard will be able to fascinate nearly anything since his (obnoxiously high) perform check is the DC (which allows his party to position themselves in a tactically superior position and take initiative for combat) and his mass suggestion will have the save DC of a 10th level spell.

Facinate et al won't work in a combat situation. And really, a Sorcerer is much better at battlefield control than a Bard. He can drop stuff down like Slow (which is also a will save) starting around level 6 (rather than 9) to hamstring opponents. Or he can use Stinking Cloud if they have weak fort saves. Or any number of other things that a bard can't do, or that the bard needs to be higher level to do.

His only use is as a Diplomancer, which has it's uses. However, it's really not all that powerful (particularly not if you use the Giant's Diplomacy system, which isn't core, so really shouldn't be taken into consideration) compared to many of the things that just about any other class can do. That's why I rated them as higher than monks and fighters, if you'll look at my assessment on page 1 of this topic. A Rogue gets all the 'party face' skills a Bard does, the only thing he doesn't get is the bard song and facinate abilities.

Gavin Sage
2007-06-01, 11:34 PM
I don't know that you can pick the worst class out of the core. Sure casters can do so very much at later level, but at least with Wizards and Sorcerors heavens help you trying to use spells every battle. Rogues are great, until you hit anything that they can't sneak attack and suddenly that happy damage drops off. The figting classes, hope you make all your saves or have someone to dispel magic or pick a lock. And counting over a range of levels equalizes many things.

Though the best can be selected. As the Druid is disqualified unless as long as Natural Spell exists, that leaves the Cleric. Why? Because it has no major weakpoints anyone has mentioned, and isn't quite as broken. Though probably should have spontaneous casting struck to be more balanced.

Droodle
2007-06-02, 12:13 AM
Facinate et al won't work in a combat situation. And really, a Sorcerer is much better at battlefield control than a Bard.
Fascinate works extraordinarilly well right at the beginning of combat (before the first blow has been struck or the first spell cast) and since the Bard is the probably the party face, he'll usually be able to get it off before the combat actually starts.....enabling the rogue and ranger to discretely get into the best position for the fight and for the wizards to position themselves somewhere defensible and buying the party a bit of time to formulate a plan. Once the bard has made a few successful suggestions, the battlefield will already be in chaos.....before the fight has even started. I'm not trying to argue that a sorcerer/wizard isn't better at battlefield control than a bard, anyway, but I'd also like to point out that your typical gish is going to be just as hamstrung in the casting department as the bard is....and he won't really fight better than the bard will, either.

Aquillion
2007-06-02, 12:47 AM
And yes, a Bard can act like a gimped and hamstrung sorcerer. Or it can act like a gimped melee. Or it can act like a gimped healbot. But it can't do all three things at the same time with the same build, and it can't do one thing well, which makes it's power level at dead last in my book.Why can't it do all three things with the same build? With good spell selection, a bard doesn't have to devote too much to any of those roles... a wand of some low-level healing spell is cheap and will serve surprisingly well for healing when the cleric is busy or indisposed for whatever reason. Things like Phantom Steed still give the Bard near-permanent flying and high movement at higher levels, while its low-level battlefield control spells don't require that much metamagic.

Granted, the class is generally just supplemental in any role (except party face, which other classes can handle, too), but a well-built bard can switch between these roles quickly. Sometimes having the party get off one extra spell (say, a Silence on the same round the wizard casts Solid Fog) is very useful; sometimes you need someone else hitting things with a weapon for a round or two; sometimes you need two people sneaking around instead of one. The Bard's advantage is that he can manage any of these things decently.

They're not a great class (most full casters can manage any of those things excellently), but I wouldn't put them dead last.